Please provide insight into your undergraduate experience

[Carters Daddad]

It seems like some schools have significant grade deflation while others aren't as punishing grade wise. For weed-out classes, as an example, I've been told that Orgo for one selective school sets the curve so 50% of the class gets at least a B+.

Also, I've read that at certain schools there is a more cutthroat culture for pre-med vs a collaborative culture.

If you would share your school and your experience, it would be very helpful.

Thanks in advance.

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[IlDestriero]

I went to an elite private school that everyone has heard of. They are well known for their sink or swim culture and cut throat competition. No flocks are given if you can’t keep up and there is attrition along the way. There are no +/- grades either. Having said that, these schools are known by the medical school AdComs for not having grade inflation, and they shouldn’t hold that against you. Just get an appropriately high MCAT and you’re good to go.
The trade off for the less than ideal learning environment is that you come out hardened, motivated, well prepared for anything, have access to research leaders and opportunities with them, connections, etc. The school produces competent grads who regularly become leaders in their fields. I had no trouble lining up a competitive summer internship at the NIH working with some guy that’s been in the news a lot lately. He was kind of a big deal 30 years ago too. And I got into my 1st choice highly regarded medical school with a comparatively low GPA.
Would I have had an easier time and a significantly higher GPA studying Bio at the local state school? Undoubtedly, but surviving and thriving in a challenging environment has real value. I still do this today. I could be a big fish in any small pond, but I like swimming with whales, and sharks, in the ocean at the tip of the spear. Those are skills I learned in college.

 

[pedneuro6894]

I went to a tiny school that no one has heard of. We didn't have curves and everything was just straight up. Because my school was so small there wasn't a large group of premeds, only a handful. However, those early classes did weed people out of doing a science major in general (one of them being my now wife lol). We helped each other as much as possible tho because we all just wanted good grades so my school was quite collaborative.

 

[Carters Daddad]

Thanks for the comments so far. Keep 'em coming...

 

[Mr.Smile12]

It may help us if you have a list of specific questions you want people to address. Is it just organic chemistry? Grading policies?

 

[esob]

There is not only a difference between schools; there is also a difference between individual professors at the same school, which I personally found to be more significant than the differences between institutions. Services like RateMyProfessor are your best friend when it comes to picking a schedule w/ the highest likelihood of earning a good grade.

 

[Carters Daddad]

"It may help us if you have a list of specific questions you want people to address. Is it just organic chemistry? Grading policies?"

I can provide a list of general questions:

1) Were the pre-med track required classes grade deflating, neutral or inflating?
2) Were the pre-med track students collaborative or cutthroat?
3) How was the pre-med advising? Was it available for freshmen?
4) Did your school "gate keep" by not providing everyone with committee letters?
5) How was access to research, volunteer and clinical opportunities?

If you feel comfortable, please mention your school when answering.

From the limited information I've gathered to date:

For a multitude of reasons:
Brown, Emory, Georgetown, Pitt, Case Western are generally positive environments to be pre-med.
Cornell, Vandy, Berkeley are generally negative environments to be pre-med.

 

[AJS59]

"It may help us if you have a list of specific questions you want people to address. Is it just organic chemistry? Grading policies?"

I can provide a list of general questions:

1) Were the pre-med track required classes grade deflating, neutral or inflating?
2) Were the pre-med track students collaborative or cutthroat?
3) How was the pre-med advising? Was it available for freshmen?
4) Did your school "gate keep" by not providing everyone with committee letters?
5) How was access to research, volunteer and clinical opportunities?

If you feel comfortable, please mention your school when answering.

From the limited information I've gathered to date:

For a multitude of reasons:
Brown, Emory, Georgetown, Pitt, Case Western are generally positive environments to be pre-med.
Cornell, Vandy, Berkeley are generally negative environments to be pre-med.

So from my perspective from my undergrad (Dartmouth):
1. I'd probably pin our grades somewhere between "neutral" and "slight inflation". Grades below a C in a most pre-req classes are almost unheard of, and grade inflation as a whole is generally rampant (example: The cutoff for Phi Beta Kappa, which is top 10% of the class, is now a 3.94, wow!). That being said, grades in the most "stem-ish" areas important for pre-meds are generally lower; while the physics classes are running around an A to A- median, the bio and chem departments have been the most reluctant to up grade inflation, and pre-med relevant classes in those departments continue to hover in the B/B+ range. Those also happen to be the lowest medians of any course in the school; I do not know of any course in my time being there that has a recorded median at a B- or lower. Finally, Dartmouth has 1 more unique thing on its transcript other colleges don't: medians are published as well. I have no idea how this helps applicants, but its on there regardless.
2. With Dartmouth, it's hard to really say if it's collaborative or cutthroat from a premed perspective (it is DEFINITELY cutthroat for anyone trying to work their way into finance or consulting, which also happens to be the most sought after profession in the undergrad body). I generally stayed away from other pre-meds during my time, not out of dislike but just because I wanted to do more than just thinking about being pre-med all the time.
3. The HPP office has a wonderful set of advisors, and advising is open to everyone from the beginning. I honestly regret not using them more and earlier.
4. Again, in part because of the small school environment and the relative lack of pre-med interest, as far as I'm aware the school gave everyone a committee letter who applied.
5. Research money may as well come from the trees at Dartmouth; there are a lot of professors and not a lot of grad students so it makes it easy for students to jump at research. There is also a very robust shadowing program at Dartmouth Hitchcock as well. Volunteering opportunities aren't nearly as well laid out (especially in the context of clinical work) but still many opportunities nearby; I personally worked at DHMC and volunteered at the VA hospital in White River Junction.

If you don't mind me asking, is there any specific reason why you're asking for insight on schools in this way?

 

[Carters Daddad]

So from my perspective from my undergrad (Dartmouth):
1. I'd probably pin our grades somewhere between "neutral" and "slight inflation". Grades below a C in a most pre-req classes are almost unheard of, and grade inflation as a whole is generally rampant (example: The cutoff for Phi Beta Kappa, which is top 10% of the class, is now a 3.94, wow!). That being said, grades in the most "stem-ish" areas important for pre-meds are generally lower; while the physics classes are running around an A to A- median, the bio and chem departments have been the most reluctant to up grade inflation, and pre-med relevant classes in those departments continue to hover in the B/B+ range. Those also happen to be the lowest medians of any course in the school; I do not know of any course in my time being there that has a recorded median at a B- or lower. Finally, Dartmouth has 1 more unique thing on its transcript other colleges don't: medians are published as well. I have no idea how this helps applicants, but its on there regardless.
2. With Dartmouth, it's hard to really say if it's collaborative or cutthroat from a premed perspective (it is DEFINITELY cutthroat for anyone trying to work their way into finance or consulting, which also happens to be the most sought after profession in the undergrad body). I generally stayed away from other pre-meds during my time, not out of dislike but just because I wanted to do more than just thinking about being pre-med all the time.
3. The HPP office has a wonderful set of advisors, and advising is open to everyone from the beginning. I honestly regret not using them more and earlier.
4. Again, in part because of the small school environment and the relative lack of pre-med interest, as far as I'm aware the school gave everyone a committee letter who applied.
5. Research money may as well come from the trees at Dartmouth; there are a lot of professors and not a lot of grad students so it makes it easy for students to jump at research. There is also a very robust shadowing program at Dartmouth Hitchcock as well. Volunteering opportunities aren't nearly as well laid out (especially in the context of clinical work) but still many opportunities nearby; I personally worked at DHMC and volunteered at the VA hospital in White River Junction.

If you don't mind me asking, is there any specific reason why you're asking for insight on schools in this way?

Thanks so much for the detailed response.

I guess I'm asking for insight in this way because I think the questions cover a lot of the areas that make a pre-med track at a school either a good experience or a bad experience.

Pre-med is hard enough...why go to a place that makes it harder than it needs to be.

 

[LunaOri]

Thanks so much for the detailed response.

I guess I'm asking for insight in this way because I think the questions cover a lot of the areas that make a pre-med track at a school either a good experience or a bad experience.

Pre-med is hard enough...why go to a place that makes it harder than it needs to be.

So you’re trying to pick a college for your kid?

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

I went to an elite private school that everyone has heard of. They are well known for their sink or swim culture and cut throat competition. No flocks are given if you can’t keep up and there is attrition along the way. There are no +/- grades either. Having said that, these schools are known by the medical school AdComs for not having grade inflation, and they shouldn’t hold that against you. Just get an appropriately high MCAT and you’re good to go.
The trade off for the less than ideal learning environment is that you come out hardened, motivated, well prepared for anything, have access to research leaders and opportunities with them, connections, etc. The school produces competent grads who regularly become leaders in their fields. I had no trouble lining up a competitive summer internship at the NIH working with some guy that’s been in the news a lot lately. He was kind of a big deal 30 years ago too. And I got into my 1st choice highly regarded medical school with a comparatively low GPA.
Would I have had an easier time and a significantly higher GPA studying Bio at the local state school? Undoubtedly, but surviving and thriving in a challenging environment has real value. I still do this today. I could be a big fish in any small pond, but I like swimming with whales, and sharks, in the ocean at the tip of the spear. Those are skills I learned in college.

It's great that you succeeded but your underlying message here is bad advice for most premeds. Medical school admissions offices don't have the staff, data or inclination to flyspeck 10,000 transcripts. There are extremely tough liberal arts colleges in the Midwest, such as Carleton, about which admissions officers on the coasts know nothing and admissions officers in the Midwest are oblivious to tough schools, like Harvey Mudd, on the coasts.

The best advice for a high school junior, who wants to be a physician, is to take the path of least resistance. Sure, it's disgusting but that's the way it is. A physician wannabe should never take advance placement courses in high school for college credit, never go to a college where less than 25% of the grades in science classes are "A"s, never major in chemistry, physics or engineering, never go to a college that has a 75th percentile ACT/SAT score that's higher than the wannabe's.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

Thanks so much for the detailed response.

I guess I'm asking for insight in this way because I think the questions cover a lot of the areas that make a pre-med track at a school either a good experience or a bad experience.

Pre-med is hard enough...why go to a place that makes it harder than it needs to be.

This times 10,000.

 

[IlDestriero]

It's great that you succeeded but your underlying message here is bad advice for most premeds. Medical school admissions offices don't have the staff, data or inclination to flyspeck 10,000 transcripts. There are extremely tough liberal arts colleges in the Midwest, such as Carleton, about which admissions officers on the coasts know nothing and admissions officers in the Midwest are oblivious to tough schools, like Harvey Mudd, on the coasts.

The best advice for a high school junior, who wants to be a physician, is to take the path of least resistance. Sure, it's disgusting but that's the way it is. A physician wannabe should never take advance placement courses in high school for college credit, never go to a college where less than 25% of the grades in science classes are "A"s, never major in chemistry, physics or engineering, never go to a college that has a 75th percentile ACT/SAT score that's higher than the wannabe's.

The post was about my experience attending a grade deflating university, which is what the OP requested. If someone wants to turn down a rigorous education studying an interesting complex subject at an elite school to go to the “easy” school and study basket weaving with some premed elective courses on the path of least resistance I guess that’s ok. Good luck to them when med school doesn’t work out. Don’t forget that 1/2 of the class seems to be premed on day one and there’s only a handful left by graduation day. Honestly, I think more than 1/2 of my classmates said they were thinking about medical school when I was a freshman, half of those dreams died about a month in. Most stayed and graduated and I think 4 of us are physicians now, I looked some time ago. Plan B is just as important as plan A.
As to how one can know if the medical schools recognize the rigor of the coursework one only needs to inquire with the premed advising service at the school about acceptance rates. My school was >90% back in the day and my child’s engineering school is 75% per their data. I’m sure Mudd is the same. 75% of them aren’t getting 3.8+. Nobody got many As in engineering classes when I was in school. You’d work 80 hours on a group project and happily take the B and be glad it’s done, until next week.
If I had to do it all over again I’d do what I originally wanted to do and get a PhD in astrophysics and then consider medical school. You can always work a couple more years and make more money, but it’s infinitely harder to go back to do something like that and follow forgotten dreams, and I can take classes for free. That may be bad advice, but like my time as an officer in the .mil, I’d be glad I did it.

 

[troy&abedintheAM]

Thanks so much for the detailed response.

I guess I'm asking for insight in this way because I think the questions cover a lot of the areas that make a pre-med track at a school either a good experience or a bad experience.

Pre-med is hard enough...why go to a place that makes it harder than it needs to be.

very much agree. plus, an undergraduate education should be about so much more than a future career (growing as a person, learning about the wider world, or even to get hippy dippy, exploring the transcendental values of truth, goodness, and beauty...). why go to an undergrad institution that limits a student's chances to explore more than their future career?

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

The post was about my experience attending a grade deflating university, which is what the OP requested. If someone wants to turn down a rigorous education studying an interesting complex subject at an elite school to go to the “easy” school and study basket weaving with some premed elective courses on the path of least resistance I guess that’s ok. Good luck to them when med school doesn’t work out. Don’t forget that 1/2 of the class seems to be premed on day one and there’s only a handful left by graduation day. Honestly, I think more than 1/2 of my classmates said they were thinking about medical school when I was a freshman, half of those dreams died about a month in. Most stayed and graduated and I think 4 of us are physicians now, I looked some time ago. Plan B is just as important as plan A.
As to how one can know if the medical schools recognize the rigor of the coursework one only needs to inquire with the premed advising service at the school about acceptance rates. My school was >90% back in the day and my child’s engineering school is 75% per their data. I’m sure Mudd is the same. 75% of them aren’t getting 3.8+. Nobody got many As in engineering classes when I was in school. You’d work 80 hours on a group project and happily take the B and be glad it’s done, until next week.
If I had to do it all over again I’d do what I originally wanted to do and get a PhD in astrophysics and then consider medical school. You can always work a couple more years and make more money, but it’s infinitely harder to go back to do something like that and follow forgotten dreams, and I can take classes for free. That may be bad advice, but like my time as an officer in the .mil, I’d be glad I did it.

Acceptance rates are pure jive. Typically, acceptance rates are based on the number of actual applicants from a college divided by the number of actual matriculants from that college. Acceptance rates do not account for the number of people who could have succeeded in medical school but did not apply because their GPAs at Lehigh, Hopkins, Cal Tech, Princeton, Carleton, Chicago, Rice or Grinnell weren't high enough to warrant an application.

See the table below and you will find that physical science majors, who take the most science courses and the hardest science courses, who actually matriculate have an average MCAT score that is 2.1 higher than the average matriculant. However, their GPAs are just as high as the GPAs of all matriculants. The average MCAT score for math and statistics majors is 4.4 higher than the average for all matriculants and yet their average GPA is just as high as the rest of the matriculants. I believe this is conclusive proof that admissions offices generally ignore rigor.

https://www.aamc.org/media/6061/download?attachment

How often does med school "not work out"? The graduation rate between 1998 and 2018 after six years was 96%.

"From 1998-1999 through 2017-2018, more medical students left medical school due to nonacademic reasons than due to academic reasons, according to data reported by medical school registrars in the AAMC Student Records System (SRS)."

https://www.aamc.org/media/48526/download

 

[IlDestriero]

It doesn’t work out for the 56% the applicants that don’t get in and 100% more that died at the MCAT and 100% more that didn’t study and take the MCAT and 100% more that decided medical school wasn’t going to happen in college and 100% more that didn’t survive Ochem. So I’d say plan B is important for a few hundred thousand hopefuls each year where the med school dream they started college with doesn’t work out. But the Bio degree from Easy U will work out fine, I’m sure.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

It doesn’t work out for the 1/2 the applicants that don’t get in and 100% more that died at the MCAT and 100% more that didn’t study and take the MCAT and 100% more that decided medical school wasn’t going to happen in college and 100% more that didn’t survive Ochem. So I’d say plan B is important for a few hundred thousand hopefuls each year where the med school doesn’t work out. But the Bio degree from Easy U will work out fine, I’m sure.

The people who get the "Bio degree from Easy U" accounted for 56.7% of the matriculants in the 2023/2024 academic year. Those 13,050 bio grads don't need a Plan B. Furthermore, I don't think the OP is interested in Plan B.

https://www.aamc.org/media/6061/download?attachment

 

[eigen]

IMO, going to a less expensive and smaller school that still has good facilities is usually an excellent bet for students who want to go to medical school.

Small class sizes, more direct interactions with faculty, more research opportunities, and options for breadth all help people in the long run.

Brand name... doesn't really help all that much, in my experience. And I say this having been on the pre-health committee at a brand name school and now running a committee at a regional school that doesn't have a major brand name attached.

Where I am now, I work with alumni multiple years out, people have strong letters from faculty that have had them in multiple classes over the years and worked with them out of class as well.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Read and watch the interview

Building a Prehealth Foundation at Small Colleges: A Conversation with Dr. Chloe Lash - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.

www.studentdoctor.net

 

[Carters Daddad]

I personally regret attending Berkeley for premed.

Could you provide some detail as to why you feel this way?