Please reopen my thread

[doc02]

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I don't know what you're talking about when you say there were repeated warnings from mods. I have not received any PMs from anyone about that thread. And no mod has posted in that thread. I feel it was a reasonable thread. Please reopen it.

 

[Tired]

Perhaps the warnings were issued to the RNs who periodically stop by to trash our profession?

You gotta hope . . .

 

[Winged Scapula]

I'm sorry...I knew Blade28 had posted in the thread but I mistakenly thought it was a warning. On further review, I see those warnings were in another thread in which there was inter-specialty bashing occuring.

However, I do not find that the thread has continued usefulness. That is not to say that I am not sensitive to your concerns nor that I have not experienced them myself.

But this thread and many others which have gone before have shown that these topics cannot be discussed rationally and without anger. This thread has degenerated and frankly, the physicians are JUST as guilty as the nurses and nursing students who are posting. I'd like to see the physicians get off their high-horse...there is WAY more bashing of nurses here than there is of physicians. We act as if we are more professional and educated than they are but yet cannot behave that way in public or on an internet forum. The nurses and nursing students who have posted here have shown a lot more restraint than some of their colleagues and some of us here.

What you do not see are the Reported Posts and PMs from users who are upset about these kinds of threads. We do tolerate venting at SDN and it can, at times, serve an educational function. However, it is not the purpose of SDN and the professional forums are not designed for such.

Frankly, it would not be an aggregious error to have closed the thread the minute it was posted for violating the TOS which states that personal attacks or insults are not allowed. You do not have to state a person's name to violate that policy. Unfortunately, IMHO the thread was allowed to continue and the result was the degeration which is ALWAYS seen in these types of threads. You may discuss and even vent about problems with co-workers, but gross and specious genrealizations are not tolerated. Thost types of threads belong in the Unmoderated Forums where there is much more lee-way about what is allowed. Also understand that in our effort to attract national medical organizations, these forums have to present a more professional front, which threads like this do not do.

Therefore, please consider THIS your warning and warning to others that continued insults and arguments will not be allowed. If the thread serves a purpose for a mature discussion about the issues between nursing and resident staff, it shall stay open; otherwise I will reclose it.

Lastly, disagreeements with Administrative action are to be handled via the PM system, not by posting a thread in the forum. When we take issue with user's actions, the Mod staff is careful to do so privately...the volunteer staff expects the same respect from its users.

 

[Tired]

This thread has degenerated and frankly, the physicians are JUST as guilty as the nurses and nursing students who are posting. I'd like to see the physicians get off their high-horse...there is WAY more bashing of nurses here than there is of physicians. We act as if we are more professional and educated than they are but yet cannot behave that way in public or on an internet forum. The nurses and nursing students who have posted here have shown a lot more restraint than some of their colleagues and some of us here.

Fair enough. I personally will refrain from further posting the aforementioned thread.

However, I would like to point out again no thread about nursing concerns long survives here without a bunch of random RNs coming through to trash us and the medical profession in general. It is true that we have a bad habit of turning our specific frustrations into generalizations about nurses. But by the same token, consider the statements embedded in the "restrained" posts by nurses (MDs aren't important, MDs just make a mess of things).

The problem here, in my mind, is this: the interns/residents want to talk, while the nurses just want to get the mods to shut down the thread.

I doubt it is any accident that every time this issue arrises, there are suddenly 2-3 "new" nursing users who pop up to post, only to never be heard from again once the thread is killed.

 

[rn78]

I'm still here, Tired. Truthfully, I don't know how much I'll be contributing. But if I can offer any useful insight re: the contemptuous relationships between nurses/docs, I shall offer my .02. Respectfully, of course.

 

[Winged Scapula]

However, I would like to point out again no thread about nursing concerns long survives here without a bunch of random RNs coming through to trash us and the medical profession in general.

I agree and frankly, its been discussed frequently at the Mod and Admin level. While we want to be inclusive and not restrict forums, at the same time we expect everyone involved to be professional and mature in their responses. And yes, you are absolutely right that these posts do trigger responses from nurses, just as when I see a thread that says "Surgeons suck" in the Anesthesia forum, I am drawn to it (but know better than to respond).

It is true that we have a bad habit of turning our specific frustrations into generalizations about nurses. But by the same token, consider the statements embedded in the "restrained" posts by nurses (MDs aren't important, MDs just make a mess of things).

I do not disagree that those posts are not offensive to me as a physician and please note that such posts are subject to warnings and infractions just as similar posts by physicians are. I honestly don't have a good solution. I don't want to close the forums to all non-physicians, especially when I think the dialogue can be useful. I would have to infract myself if I posted what I really thought of some of those comments....I am not unsympathetic but Moderating means that sometimes no one is completely happy with the results.

The problem here, in my mind, is this: the interns/residents want to talk, while the nurses just want to get the mods to shut down the thread.

I personally have not been asked to shut down the thread by anyone I recognize as a nurse or nursing student. And while all users may use the Report Post function, it is up to te discretion of the volunteer staff as to what, if any, action is to be taken. When I close a thread, is is either because its a clear violation of the TOS or multiple users have requested the action.

I doubt it is any accident that every time this issue arrises, there are suddenly 2-3 "new" nursing users who pop up to post, only to never be heard from again once the thread is killed.

You might be right, as there are several posters ine thread whom I do not recognize. The two most prolific are well known users and generally moderate in their responses and while I think there were some offensive comments made on at least one of their parts, it does not go unrecognized by me that the same can be said for multiple posts by physicians about nurses. If we want to complain about them here, then we need to have a stronger spine to take the negative attacks thrown our way. Surely as a surgeon you recognize that.

I cannot however simply chastize new users who pop up to join the argument if they have not violated the TOS. And sometimes, and this may come as a suprise, there are physicians who will not necessarily side with other physicians but rather will weigh all the evidence and may decide that the nursing staff is in the right.

So my final point is that I do recognize that people like to use SDN to vent and discuss problems at work, and they should. However, they also need to realize that the forums are not just for physicians and that others are welcome here as long as they abide by the TOS. Therefore, they may wish to suppress certain comments or realize that the discussions may end up heated and in a closed thread.

Its a contentious situation and I for one do not want this or the Surgery Forums to become like the CRNA vs MD/DO arguments that the Gas guys suffer, so perhaps we can all see a futile discussion when it appears.

 

[Tired]

I'm still here, Tired. Truthfully, I don't know how much I'll be contributing. But if I can offer any useful insight re: the contemptuous relationships between nurses/docs, I shall offer my .02. Respectfully, of course.

I have no desire to endure yet another ban, so I will make this my last post in this thread as well. You may feel free to pile-on (as is currently occurring in the "I just owned a nurse" thread) hereafter.

Despite the stated policy that all are welcome here, understand that when an intern starts a thread about frustrations experienced with nursing staff, this is not an invitation for "guidance" or "insight" from RNs who randomly wander through. We want to vent and share our stories. Simple as that.

Many interns/residents have stated it over and over: You just don't have any insight to offer to us. You may work with us every day, but you really have no conception of how we spend our days and nights, you do not understand how we do our jobs, you don't even fully understand what our jobs are. You see us for a few minutes a couple times a day, and have no idea where we are or what we are doing the rest of the time. You have no conception of what our education is entails, and you have no understanding of the pressure we are constantly under.

If I had my way, this forum would be limited to physicians. Unfortunately, it is not. But please know that I am not the only regular poster here who feels that the comments by nursing staff in the forum labeled "Internship" are unwelcome, unhelpful, and only serve to trigger arguments that result in our threads being shut down.

 

[rn78]

It's unfortunate you people feel this way. You need to remember that down the road, it will indeed benefit you to coexist with nursing, as peacefully as possible. It makes both our jobs, much easier. Peace.

 

[Clio]

I would like to offer an apology to the board, Dr. Cox, and specifically to doc02 for my comment. It was uncalled for and has been edited out. I will refrain from making such comments in the future.

 

[Blade28]

As the aforementioned thread continued to degenerate, I closed it.

I agree that the Internship forum is a place for overworked, underpaid and underappreciate interns to vent - I've certainly been there. Venting is cathartic and even necessary at times to keep one's sanity.

But when the thread devolves into one SDN user bashing another, we need to put a stop to it. I think it's OK to talk about one's experiences and frustrations with a particular group of people at work - just don't make it personal (i.e. targeted at a particular SDN user).

 

[BlackSails]

Suggestion: A protected internship forum, where entry requires some bona fides of being a doctor.

 

[doc02]

You know what's great? The fact that nurses can just randomly come into a thread and get it shut down. It's interesting how all of a sudden a bunch of "Health Students" with new accounts ran into the thread and started trolling with ludicrous statements intended to engender a negative response from everyone else. It's pathetic how this happens to every thread about nurses. Here's an idea: rather than shut down the thread, why don't you just ban the nurses if they try that?

My thread was fine and I'm going to defend it. I was talking about an encounter with a nurse and her actions were ludicrous. And yet, because it was a nurse that I was criticizing, I got a bunch of people who came in to lecture me that somehow I was the one who was being inappropriate or that I had to "learn how to get along with others," as if I had just walked up to a random nurse and started slugging her in the back of the head. To most nurses on this forum, apparently, any action taken by any nurse is either completely OK or, at best, "not right, but still something that you have to understand comes with the territory."

That's the pathetic part. I acknowledge the role of nurses, read my last post on my closed thread. However, I refuse to say that they are EQUALS to physicians. They have important BUT NON-EQUIVALENT roles in dealing with patients. The fact that this upsets people does not, therefore, mean that it is wrong or that it is abusive or that the world is about to end. If this forum is just intended for us to sit around and talk about how we all respect everyone else and we are one big family and we're going to pretend nothing bad ever happens in the hospital, count me out.

In closing, I'm post call and I had a patient who had a chronically low blood pressure who was at his baseline, mentating fine, and with a stable heart rate. The nurse bomb paged me about him and I saw him and said he was fine and she then proceeded to call the attending and tell me there was a patient "in shock" and crashing on the floor. I had an interesting conversation with the attending about her. Later that night, the patient actually DID become hypotensive and tachycardic ...and the nurse didn't tell me. I found out that she had simply continued to lamely document his vital signs every few hours as they deteriorated. She said that she figured since I "wasn't concerned about the patient being in shock earlier, I wouldn't care about him being in shock now." Good job! You earned my respect!

 

[RxnMan]

Suggestion: A protected internship forum, where entry requires some bona fides of being a doctor.

It's a good idea, but the only way to do that is to provide some confirmation via email. I'll kick it up to the mods. They may go for it because it will calm down this forum, but still give you guys a place to vent.

In the mean time, try the Lounge.

 

[RxnMan]

You know what's great? The fact that nurses can just randomly come into a thread and get it shut down. It's interesting how all of a sudden a bunch of "Health Students" with new accounts ran into the thread and started trolling with ludicrous statements intended to engender a negative response from everyone else. It's pathetic how this happens to every thread about nurses. Here's an idea: rather than shut down the thread, why don't you just ban the nurses if they try that?...

doc02, that sucks about the patient.

Let me and the Mods work on a solution for you. If you want results, keep a lid on it until we give it a try.

 

[drlisa0318]

It's a good idea, but the only way to do that is to provide some confirmation via email. I'll kick it up to the mods. They may go for it because it will calm down this forum, but still give you guys a place to vent.

In the mean time, try the Lounge.

If it's possible, please make it so that non-physicians (more specifically, pre-meds) can still READ in the Internship forum. I doubt I would ever, as a pre-med, have anything to contribute to the forum, so I have no problem with not being allowed to post there, but it's a real education on what I'll be going through in a few years.

 

[Winged Scapula]

While I can say that I am sympathetic to these issues, email does not provide verification that someone is a resident. Any employee of a university or other hospital, including nurses, can get an .edu or whatever address. IN addition, as noted above, it would also keep out pre-meds and other people who are interested in this topic.

SDN simply does not have the resources to make phone calls, etc. to verify every members stated identity and I would venture there are many members who would not want us to do that as well because it would mean knowing your name and location. Obivously we have done it on a small scale with our Mentors and the Neonatology forum but I expect that the level of interest in reading an Internship forum is much greater and is too great a tax on the limited SDN volunteer resources to verify everyone's credentials.

If any one has any solutions I and the rest of the volunteer staff are willing to assess them, but frankly I do not see this as that big of a problem that we need a restricted access forum.

Finally, the thread was not closed by me or Blade because of the behavior of nurses; the phyicians involved need to understand that their own behavior was just as much a part of the problem as the nurses and new members who joined to post. Everyone needs to understand that there are limits and responsibilities that all users have. The Moderation and expectations at SDN may seem to inhibit freedom of speech or venting but it has been formulated over a number of years and we feel it gives us the best results. As noted, you can take venting to the non-moderated forums if you wish where the rules are a little more lax. In the meantime, all members are expected to behave maturely and professionally in the professional forums and that includes limiting bashing of different specialties.

 

[Bertelman]

Suggestion: A protected internship forum, where entry requires some bona fides of being a doctor.

It's been done in the anesthesia forums. The particular sub-forum gets WAY less traffic, and tends to be dominated by the same topic (MD v. nurse) with the same handful of people posting. Boring and overwrought.

I'd agree with Kim. Yes, the forum is designed for interns, but when the title is "I just owned a nurse", don't be surprised when they crawl out of the woodwork to wage battle. I would expect a similar response if doc02 had, in his real-life interaction, said, "I just owned you!"

...and Kim, I've been posting in the Surgeons suck" thread for some time now. Frankly, it has become one-sided. We welcome your input. 😉

 

[Winged Scapula]

...and Kim, I've been posting in the Surgeons suck" thread for some time now. Frankly, it has become one-sided. We welcome your input. 😉

Woo-hoo!

Now if I could only be sure this wasn't a trap!

 

[rn78]

You know what's great? The fact that nurses can just randomly come into a thread and get it shut down. It's interesting how all of a sudden a bunch of "Health Students" with new accounts ran into the thread and started trolling with ludicrous statements intended to engender a negative response from everyone else. It's pathetic how this happens to every thread about nurses. Here's an idea: rather than shut down the thread, why don't you just ban the nurses if they try that?

My thread was fine and I'm going to defend it. I was talking about an encounter with a nurse and her actions were ludicrous. And yet, because it was a nurse that I was criticizing, I got a bunch of people who came in to lecture me that somehow I was the one who was being inappropriate or that I had to "learn how to get along with others," as if I had just walked up to a random nurse and started slugging her in the back of the head. To most nurses on this forum, apparently, any action taken by any nurse is either completely OK or, at best, "not right, but still something that you have to understand comes with the territory."

That's the pathetic part. I acknowledge the role of nurses, read my last post on my closed thread. However, I refuse to say that they are EQUALS to physicians. They have important BUT NON-EQUIVALENT roles in dealing with patients. The fact that this upsets people does not, therefore, mean that it is wrong or that it is abusive or that the world is about to end. If this forum is just intended for us to sit around and talk about how we all respect everyone else and we are one big family and we're going to pretend nothing bad ever happens in the hospital, count me out.

In closing, I'm post call and I had a patient who had a chronically low blood pressure who was at his baseline, mentating fine, and with a stable heart rate. The nurse bomb paged me about him and I saw him and said he was fine and she then proceeded to call the attending and tell me there was a patient "in shock" and crashing on the floor. I had an interesting conversation with the attending about her. Later that night, the patient actually DID become hypotensive and tachycardic ...and the nurse didn't tell me. I found out that she had simply continued to lamely document his vital signs every few hours as they deteriorated. She said that she figured since I "wasn't concerned about the patient being in shock earlier, I wouldn't care about him being in shock now." Good job! You earned my respect!

How do nurses get the thread shut down? Could it be the reactions they elicit, that actually get it shut down? I was not offended with how you handled the situation with the rude nurse. I did get offended when you stated if you got bored, you might walk the dog. There was no need for such a degrading remark. And there are ways to get one's point across, without being personal and abusive.
As for your last paragraph, it sounds as if the nurse paged you when she noticed a deterioriation. We often call the docs before they crash. If there is a way of treating them before it advances, then we call. The difference between her and I, is I would never sit by and watch a pt take a further nose dive. As has been stated, there are incompetents in every profession. But I'd be hard-pressed to generalize everyone as being so.
In closing, if what you and your peers say is true, about not reporting unsafe or disrespectful treatment, that is your choice. But the behaviors and actions that have been mentioned, are indeed, reportable. Even an anonymous call/email to the Board of Nursing, would suffice. Otherwise, any inappropriate actions will only continue.
I promise you, we are not all like that. Most nurses however, will not take any misguided abuses from the doctors. Especially those with a God complex. If that makes us female dogs, that's on you.

 

[doc02]

I was not offended with how you handled the situation with the rude nurse. I did get offended when you stated if you got bored, you might walk the dog.

When I said that, I was clearly referring to ONE nurse, THAT ONE nurse. Like I said, read how she acted towards me and I challenge you to tell me how that is appropriate. Because she was that inappropriate, I have no problem calling her anything I want in my posts. She was attempting to abuse me in order to establish dominance and she's done it to other interns. She feels justified in doing it just because she's "an old, experienced nurse" and she doesn't even know what she's medically demanding. She's an imbecile, plain and simple.

Nurses aren't bad people, but they come off that way to a lot of us because a lot of them don't really put any thought or effort into what they're doing. They come in, dispense medications, chart vitals, change bedpans, and that's it. That's their job, so I'm not saying that's wrong. I'm just saying that if you demand, as one person did, to be considered the medical equal of a physician, then nurses should demonstrate that ability. But we've all experienced lots of situations where that's clearly not the case. (See my example above.) If a nurse is essentially a physician who cannot prescribe medicine, then I should get NO PAGES when I go to work. This clearly does not happen. Therefore, I refuse to recognize a nurse as my equal, even as an intern.

You may dislike what I say, but I'm really not saying anything insulting. Nurses AREN'T physicians, so if you (not you, personally) take offense when I say they are not, then you should examine yourself, not me. What has caused you (not you, personally) to delude yourself to that degree? Generally, it is ego because a lot of nurses figure "I've been here for 20 years, so I must know a lot." That's not true. You know a lot of NURSING and can definitely teach the younger nurses a thing or two, but practically zero of what a physician does. Stop trying to "teach me" and DEFINITELY stop trying to use some stupid "positive/negative reinforcement" techniques to "show me how to act when I'm on your floor."

 

[doc02]

P.S. One last thing: lots of nurses use the excuse "we have to call you for x because of medico-legal policy." Like any man with BPH who needs a Foley at my place "requires" a physician to put it in. This actually isn't a policy, it's just evolved into one because the nurses use it as an excuse to not put in the Foley "in case something happens." The reality is it makes their job easier because someone else has to do it now. I'm a regular old intern, I have no special Foley training, no special ninja skillz in pushing a tube into a guy's penis, but they say I do. So I'll just go and do it. Now ask yourself: is that how you earn respect?

Answer: not from me. If other people say yes, then they are fine people. Good for them.

 

[smq123]

It's unfortunate you people feel this way. You need to remember that down the road, it will indeed benefit you to coexist with nursing, as peacefully as possible. It makes both our jobs, much easier. Peace.

True, it does make everyone's job easier. It's unfortunate that some nurses don't believe in the "peaceful co-existence" that you're preaching, though.

 

[rn78]

P.S. One last thing: lots of nurses use the excuse "we have to call you for x because of medico-legal policy." Like any man with BPH who needs a Foley at my place "requires" a physician to put it in. This actually isn't a policy, it's just evolved into one because the nurses use it as an excuse to not put in the Foley "in case something happens." The reality is it makes their job easier because someone else has to do it now. I'm a regular old intern, I have no special Foley training, no special ninja skillz in pushing a tube into a guy's penis, but they say I do. So I'll just go and do it. Now ask yourself: is that how you earn respect?

Answer: not from me. If other people say yes, then they are fine people. Good for them.

I have to cath a lot of males with advanced prostate ca, and always, with partial bladder obstruction. Using coudes don't help. So I can tell you what these nurses are thinking: they are not going to be held liable for traumatizing a guy's urethra in attempting to push that catheter through tumors and adhesions. And so, we get the attending/resident to do it, and they often call urology. I don't know how it works with doctors, but if we inadvertently injure a pt, again, we can either lose our licenses, or have them suspended. The next time a nurse refuses to follow an order, it is likely related to fear of repercussions.

Speaking for myself, I have never considered my knowledge base equal to that of a doctor's. Perhaps we're playing with semantics, but I do consider my role as a nurse, equal in importance to the role of an md. In order to appreciate this concept, you need to acknowledge the holistic view in healing. But I am not going to get into a war with anyone about who's more important. I am quite secure in myself.

Chatting with you 1:1 hasn't been so horrible, has it? Be well, doc.

 

[rn78]

It's unfortunate that some nurses don't believe in the "peaceful co-existence" that you're preaching, though.

Works both ways. But yeah, you're right. All of it sucks.

 

[doc02]

So I can tell you what these nurses are thinking: they are not going to be held liable for traumatizing a guy's urethra in attempting to push that catheter through tumors and adhesions.

That's my point. If the mentality is "I'm your equal, I just happen to not want responsibility for anything that happens and instead want you to take it," where are we? I have no special Foley skills that a nurse doesn't ...but the nurse still wants me to be the one who places it. And when I'm done, we'll go back to being equals because we can both place Foleys. That's how a lot of nurses I know think.

That's why I said in my other thread that nurses who think they know medicine are LUCKY they have residents who fight with them, even if they don't know it. The residents are the ones who have to think about every consequence of every action, either doing it or not doing it. The nurse can just say whatever she wants.

I was in a trauma once and I made a suggestion to my Chief that happened to be right. The Chief ignored it, which turned out to be a mistake. He later told me he should have listened to me. I said, "no way, I'm just saying a lot of stuff. Hell, 98% of the stuff I said during that trauma was either wrong or stupid. You're the one who had to make the decisions and think about everything. So I made ONE good suggestion by accident, so what?" Get it?

 

[rn78]

It is very convenient, letting the md take the fall. It is also appropriate. BUT...I cannot imagine ANY nurse considering themselves equal to an md, again, in terms of medical knowledge. I have a feeling that nurses are talking about being equal in terms of receiving the same respect/recognition of an md. Maybe the frustrations are misplaced? But it's important to understand that nurses are totally disrespected by administration. That's because we do not provide billable services, and so, we don't generate any revenue for the hospital. That creates a lot of friction. Compound that with the handful of docs who DO walk around like they're God, and DO talk down to nursing. There's enough of them, for sure. Ultimately, this creates a demand in being treated equally, or even respectfully. This is my take on it. I can't imagine any nurse in their right mind, professing to be equal in educational status. I think the bottom line is, how is equal being perceived? Nurses want to feel like they're being heard, like part of the team. And they should be. It is teamwork. Whether you want to hear it or not, nurses can ruin an md's career, if the md isn't careful. And as you've seen, there are people/nurses who lack such ethics, that they'd do it in a heartbeat. It's not only a reflection on what type of nurse they are, but more accurately, what kind of person they are. It is truly shameful. Need to make dinner.

 

[Tired]

SDN simply does not have the resources to make phone calls, etc. to verify every members stated identity and I would venture there are many members who would not want us to do that as well because it would mean knowing your name and location. Obivously we have done it on a small scale with our Mentors and the Neonatology forum but I expect that the level of interest in reading an Internship forum is much greater and is too great a tax on the limited SDN volunteer resources to verify everyone's credentials.

I have a relatively simple (I think) solution:

Provide an NPI number via PM. Every intern/resident/attending should have one, and it is easily verified online.

 

[Blade28]

I have a relatively simple (I think) solution:

Provide an NPI number via PM. Every intern/resident/attending should have one, and it is easily verified online.

Or even their temporary/full medical license #.

Of course, how do we know that the SDN user is who they say they are?

 

[Tired]

Of course, how do we know that the SDN user is who they say they are?

My thinking was this: If it's a closed forum, then these politeness rules could probably be substantially relaxed or even done away with. I seriously doubt many non-physicians would take the time to "steal" someone elses NPI or license number just to get into a forum on SDN. But if they did, they would likely lose interest when grossly outnumbered by the real physicians. Especially a bunch of overworked, non-appreciated interns with chips on their shoulders.

Also, it would also be difficult to argue some of the points that the RNs make here without revealing your status as an RN ("I've been doing this for 20 years and I know better" is not an argument made by physicians).

 

[Blade28]

Also, it would also be difficult to argue some of the points that the RNs make here without revealing your status as an RN ("I've been doing this for 20 years and I know better" is not an argument made by physicians).

You know, that's true. Ripping off someone else's license number wouldn't help because then you couldn't post anti-intern rhetoric in any thread (lest you quickly be discovered).

 

[RxnMan]

My thinking was this: If it's a closed forum, then these politeness rules could probably be substantially relaxed or even done away with...Especially a bunch of overworked, non-appreciated interns with chips on their shoulders...

These are good points. However, making the forum closed will keep med students like myself out.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I have expressed my feelings that a closed forum is not the way I wish to go. However, we may restrict the forum to registered users (ie, you can't lurk and see the foruim, you have to be signed in).

The likely outcome will be that because SDN is designed for the medical community and the Internship forum is designed for Interns/Physicians/Med Students, we will be taking a harder stance on those who are not members of those communities but come in and alienate our core audience/membership.

I'll post more when we finalize what the process and policy will be.

 

[Lee]

We can make this a registered-only viewership forum. However, it doesn't prevent non-docs from getting access. Additionally, if we required NPI numbers or some other similar system, then it would limit a lot of our core membership from accessing the forum.

On that note, I want to make one issue clear - SDN is a site for doctors and doctors-in-training. We're not a site for the entire healthcare team.

SDN is strictly a site for open discussion among different professions within one of our 9 represented communities.

If a non-doc uses SDN, they do so at their own discretion. In terms of moderation, we will always give preference to our core membership. RNs, CRNAs, PAs, etc are welcome to visit SDN, but our core membership comes first.

On the thread in question, it was closed for the reasons noted above.

 

[sdn1977]

We can make this a registered-only viewership forum. However, it doesn't prevent non-docs from getting access. Additionally, if we required NPI numbers or some other similar system, then it would limit a lot of our core membership from accessing the forum.

On that note, I want to make one issue clear - SDN is a site for doctors and doctors-in-training. We're not a site for the entire healthcare team.

SDN is strictly a site for open discussion among different professions within one of our 9 represented communities.

If a non-doc uses SDN, they do so at their own discretion. In terms of moderation, we will always give preference to our core membership. RNs, CRNAs, PAs, etc are welcome to visit SDN, but our core membership comes first.

On the thread in question, it was closed for the reasons noted above.

I dont have a clue what went on here, however, I do want some clarification.

You state that "SDN is a site for doctors and doctors-in-training. We're NOT a site for the entire healthcare team".

I AM a Doctor of Pharmacy! I received my degree from the finest & most well regarded pharmacy school in the nation.

I INDEED have a doctorate in my profession & am very much a part of the healthcare team. In FACT I also have an NPI, a DEA # & know that state licenses are not uniform nationwide!

You, by your one pontificating statement have alienated everyone BUT physicians - and physicians in training (altho my own daughter, who is 18 months from being a physician and my husband who is a dentist - certainly NOT a doctor in your narrow minded view - might both be alienated on my behalf!). I often read this thread because my own daughter will be an intern in 18 months & I annually have to work with new interns. It helps to know & be reminded of how they think & view things, which I take for granted.

So - since you, as a site, value physicians much more than the rest of us - I can work very, very hard at being active in how biased & negative this site might be toward those who are not physicians or physicians in training. Is that your purpose? You don't seem to work very hard at keeping those who "bash" pharmacists off our site - but, then we are just one forum on the "whole" site - which, you've already stated is for physicians only.

I've only been a pharmacist for 30+ years. I've seen a lot of you come & go professionally. I've been politically active in my own profession & can speak in the "ears" of those who might choose to advertise or not; choose to speak well of you or not. Thats the benefit of having classmates in industry! Cheapens us all - doesn't it?????? I have also taught & am close with those in education within my own state. Is it worth all that negativity to all the other health professions to promote & validate "venting" which gets out of hand among interns, residents, attendings - and yes, all of us who might just need bit of venting? Venting is an acceptable practice & one which requires the individual venting to do just that - blow off steam & not let the anger get the best of the individual. But, there is a limit - both online & in real life.

But, if your profession needs "protection" of its core membership by moderation & cannot deal with other health care professionals on, yes, a professional basis, as Dr Cox suggested - then - the rest of us perceive you as a profession with a bit of insecurity at its base and core.

Unfortunately, this actually promotes a "reality" which is not real.

We do in fact work well together daily. We marry each other. We give birth & raise children to become physicians, dentists, truck drivers & all sorts of other professions. This site is not reality - which might come as a real surprise to you!

Whatever became of being inoffensive to your fellow human?

You, sir, have offended just about everyone who does not have MD/DO
behind his/her name. I didn't realize that my contributions on the pharmacist's forum were always subject to the whim's & misconceptions of the various physicians who have visited it! Nor did I realize my participation in this site was only as a "guest" & not a valid & significant user in my field.

How arrogant!!!

 

[Blade28]

On that note, I want to make one issue clear - SDN is a site for doctors and doctors-in-training. We're not a site for the entire healthcare team.
...
If a non-doc uses SDN, they do so at their own discretion. In terms of moderation, we will always give preference to our core membership. RNs, CRNAs, PAs, etc are welcome to visit SDN, but our core membership comes first.

That's a great point, and one that's often forgotten. One of the quirks of having a diverse member base, I suppose.

You, by your one pontificating statement have alienated everyone BUT physicians - and physicians in training (altho my own daughter, who is 18 months from being a physician and my husband who is a dentist - certainly NOT a doctor in your narrow minded view - might both be alienated on my behalf!). I often read this thread because my own daughter will be an intern in 18 months & I annually have to work with new interns. It helps to know & be reminded of how they think & view things, which I take for granted.
...
You, sir, have offended just about everyone who does not have MD/DO behind his/her name. I didn't realize that my contributions on the pharmacist's forum were always subject to the whim's & misconceptions of the various physicians who have visited it! Nor did I realize my participation in this site was only as a "guest" & not a valid & significant user in my field.

How arrogant!!!

I think you misunderstood Lee's point. SDN is free to be viewed by anyone by the public; membership, however, is a privilege, not a right - and as such everyone is bound by the SDN Terms of Service and its policies and procedures upon joining.

In essence, this is private organization with its own rules, regulations and standards - and these are at the discretion of the SDN founders.

I think your post is unnecessarily hostile and needlessly directed at Lee. I'd advise against blasting one of SDN's founders with hyperbole and over-generalizations that really are, in my opinion, both inappropriate and patronizing.

 

[Lee]

I think you misinterpreted my post.

I respect all our communities equally. Doctors include: AuD, DDS, MD, DO, DMD, PharmD, OD, DVM, DPT, etc... No where in my post did I say "physicians."

 

[All4MyDaughter]

When Lee said that SDN is intended for docs and pre-docs, who he was referring to is health care providers in doctoral level fields and students pursuing those fields. He was not restricting SDN's mission to physicians. The terms "physician" and "doctor" are often used interchangeably, but not in this case. That couldn't be further from the truth.

The following doctoral level health care fields are represented on SDN:
Medicine (MD/DO), Dentistry, Podiatric Medicine, Pharmacy, Veterinary Medicine, Audiology, Psychology, Optometry, Physical Therapy, and Occupational Therapy. Students in these fields are STUDENT DOCTORS. Practitioners in these fields are DOCTORS of _______________.

SDN does and will continue to represent the spectrum of doctoral level health care professions. Our upper management team includes members from fields other than medicine. Our moderator and advisor staff is pulled from all the represented professions. This diversity helps us ensure that SDN remains a vibrant, inter-disciplinary health care community. We value the input and contributions of ALL of our members.

Thanks for all the feedback.

 

[sdn1977]

That's a great point, and one that's often forgotten. One of the quirks of having a diverse member base, I supposed.



I think you misunderstood Lee's point. SDN is free to be viewed by anyone by the public; membership, however, is a privilege, not a right - and as such everyone is bound by the SDN Terms of Service and its policies and procedures upon joining.

In essence, this is private organization with its own rules, regulations and standards - and these are at the discretion of the SDN founders.

I think your post is unnecessarily hostile and needlessly directed at Lee. I'd advise against blasting one of SDN's founders with hyperbole and over-generalizations that really are, in my opinion, both inappropriate and patronizing.

I don't think I misunderstood at all. It is indeed a privilege - for all - even its core membership.

Yes, my post was hostile, but very specifically directed toward Lee. I don't feel I overgeneralized or used patronizing or inappropriate language - but, indeed you are entitled to your opinion.

What do you think might happen if I so openly express my displeasure at being what amounts to "disenfranchised" from the whole site?" Will I lose my membership decoder ring - no - I never got that! Will I loose my pocket license which says I "belong" - no, never got that either.

Membership is a nebuous thing here. You agree to the TOS - which even Dr Cox has said that some of the "reverred" physician members have not adhered to. Perhaps they should give back their decoder ring?

Will I lose by job? Not likely! In fact, I go back to work tomorrow wondering what other issues that the 4 month interns might have raised?

Will my life go on - you bet! I'll be working long after this class leaves & I might have been there when your dad came thru.

Go back & read what the Google statement is - "a nonprofit educational community for students and doctors in the health care professions".

We are all in the health care professions - I am a doctor of pharmacy, you might be a doctor of medicine - or just a medical student, a physical therapy student, a respiratory therapy student - or......an intern!

This site publically welcomes them all - until they get here - or on anesthesia or some of the other sites with egos that get hurt and they need special protection.

When did medicine lose its required class for professional behavior?

That, sir, professionall behavior - is what should & is the criteria for membership. I have always tried to address my colleagues in a professional way, be they pharmacists, nursing or medicine.

But, I will take objection when the whole lot of us is tossed out to "protect the central core" - sounds like something out of a bad movie!

 

[sdn1977]

I think you misinterpreted my post.

I respect all doctoral degrees equally. Doctors include: MD, DO, DDS, DMD, PharmD, OD, AuD, DVM, DPT, etc... No where in my post did I say "physicians."

Aaaah - splitting hairs here.

So, since the uniform entry degree into pharmacy became nationwide in 2000 & brought the remaining 20 states which had not adopted the PharmD, you might only allow those folks to lurk here since they just have BS degees in pharmacy?

Thats curious, because these same people who have BS in Pharmacy actually are director of pharmacies in charge of budgets which run into the milions of dollars. They are also educators, CEOs of large retail chains....yet, none of them would be the privileded few.

You seem to be hung up on a "title" which in the real world means nothing if you don't do the job, do it well & do it with people who support, like & get along with you.

Perhaps it is just nurses which seem to get you all worked up about - sad, very sad....

 

[Lee]

I'm sorry that you insist on misinterpreting my post which was to clarify the purpose of SDN. I'm not suggesting people be unprofessional.

Every aspect of SDN is for pre-health students and doctors in training. It was never intended to be a site for everyone on Earth. They're welcome to participate, but first and formost, it's for the 9 core communities (Audiology, Dentistry, Medicine, Optometry, Pharmacy, Podiatry, Physical Therapy, Psychology, and Veterinary).

We have no plans to add additional communities at this time.

 

[doc02]

Hm, quite a discussion I have started. Anyone want to get back to my original topic?

 

[sdn1977]

Hm, quite a discussion I have started. Anyone want to get back to my original topic?

You seem to be quite the dog with the bone. It appears you have received all explanations necessary for why your thread was closed by Dr. Cox and others.

Additionally, Lee has made very clear that this site is open to those seeking pre-DOCTOR degrees - in any way shape or form, but specifically mentions he is not considering including annother community (nursing, which has had a doctorate for many years.)

Also, some of those nurses or PAs may indeed seek to move into different professions - as nurses.

However, despite what is displayed on the GOOGLE description of this site, it is only for DOCTORS and those who want to be DOCTORS - not what is described - "an educational community for students and doctors in the healthcare setting".

God forbid should any of us learn anything from someone who is not a DOCTOR. Some of my best educators & mentors had a BS in my field. Certainly a PA or a nursing student couldn't come up with anything wildly informational or helpful....

But, how much more clear do you need - you have been given permission to bash away it seems - just don't use a name.

However, you might want to think less about finding your "equal" (and trying hard to point out why that person is not an equal to you) and more about finding how healthcare works in an interrelated way in the real world. This is a good place to vent, but in the real world, you need to be able to work with all of us because the system is too complex to rely on just one or two people. Think what happened before you came July 1 & what happens after you leave June 30? Patients still get taken care of, the hospital still functions - somehow life still goes on.

Before you come & after you leave your intern year - we all do sit back & say "whew" - yep....that class was "equal" to the last. They eventually learned all the rules & regulations, some faster, some slower....but then we get another round....

We know you need to vent - this is a frustrating time in your education, but also in healthcare in general. Go ahead, just do it professionally & humanely & try to keep your discrimination or damnationn of a profession or an individual to a minimum. This is a complex business & too complicated to be distracted by political infighting.

Does it matter anymore if you were right or wrong in the instance you illuminated? Rightness can lead you right down the road to being "right" in the actual situation medically, but wrong in all the other ways. Give yourself time to think back - was there another way you could have been "right" and not have made someone feel as though he/she couldn't talk to you anymore or have perhaps felt badly personally. You won the battle, but who won the war - did anyone win the war - is winning the war the issue?

These are all "territorial" issues & ones that distract from patient care & learning how to work well within a large hospital system. You can learn them, or fight them. But, your success within the system is rarely tied to how good a DOCTOR you are - it is how good a person you are. Thats just been my very limited exprience of 30 years in the system.

 

[doc02]

God forbid should any of us learn anything from someone who is not a DOCTOR.

First of all, my original thread had nothing to do about who I learn from. This thread has nothing to do with who I learn from, either. In other words, you're the one who is "quite the dog with a bone" because you're the one who won't let go.

Second of all, I have yet to learn something from a nurse that doesn't have to do with nursing. If anyone can come up with physician-level things that you learned from a nurse, tell us and I'll be eager to read it. This statement that "we all learn from each other" is just P.C. garbage. It's all nice and lovey-dovey, but it's absolutely false.

Lastly, I find it interesting that nurses love to say that "interns could learn a lot from nurses" but nurses never want to learn from interns. Again, they refuse to think that someone who has been there for two months versus their twenty years or someone who is half their age or less could POSSIBLY know more than them, even though that is routinely true. One nurse tried to "teach" me something and I listened, even though she was wrong (meaning, you could actually open a book up and read her the passage proving her to be wrong). Then I tried to teach her the correct answer and she immediately told me that she was "more experienced" than me and quickly walked into a patient room.

I didn't get angry, I just stopped explaining my thinking to her. My reasoning is that she knows as much as I do, so I don't need to tell her why I am doing something. That's how I deal with it. She will never agree that I know more than her and trying to make her would only make her try to "make my life hell." So I simply accept her view as truth and act as if it is. She gets fairly upset at this, but she really can't do anything about it because I treat her like an equal. I talk to her literally like I'd talk to a physician. At the end of the conversation, she doesn't know what just went on and I walk away.

I respect nurses who do their job and understand what their job is. I have no time to deal with nurses who act like the hospital is "their house" and I'm a visitor and have to abide by "their rules." I'm an employee just like they are and just as entitled to be there as they are. If I have to follow their weird unspoken rules of etiquette, then they should have to follow mine. Since they don't, I'm tired of this entire stupid game. The end.

 

[Faebinder]

I have a relatively simple (I think) solution:

Provide an NPI number via PM. Every intern/resident/attending should have one, and it is easily verified online.

Hahahah.. wow hardcore... I like it... (Waives his relatively new NPI). At least that $200 I paid on this damn NPI will be useful for something.

 

[Faebinder]

Look, the bottom line and let me say what's on everyone's minds that is not being stated.

An intern.. like Doc2.... wants a thread where interns can actually whine without being stomped down. Out there in the real world... try whining as an intern and you will be shot down faster than a flying duck in the duck hunting season (or cheny's friend in the quail season). This whining can result in nurses, CRNAs, physical therapists, PA, NP, and even... doctors of pharmacy getting mad at hearing the thoughts of an intern. What we witnessed in that thread is an intern starting to whine, then a nurse blasted back, some interns jumped in...some nurses jumped in. Yet the entire subforum is called "Internship". As an intern you have a zillion and one people shooting you down.. heck.. if the janitor or even the bum on the street went and complained to the program director about an intern's "attitude" they would be put on probation. It would be really really nice to be able to vent as an intern to other interns without having the entire world pitch in. Using NPI however will limit off 4th year med students and allow some none physicians access, so I am not sure if it is ideal.

What is the purpose of the internship forum that the general residency forum wont or shouldnt be able to do?

 

[Lee]

We currently have set this forum to be registered members only - it is not open to public viewing. We could make it a private forum such as the neonatology, ASA, ACFAS or similar forums.

 

[smq123]

What do you think might happen if I so openly express my displeasure at being what amounts to "disenfranchised" from the whole site?" Will I lose my membership decoder ring - no - I never got that! Will I loose my pocket license which says I "belong" - no, never got that either.

But, I will take objection when the whole lot of us is tossed out to "protect the central core" - sounds like something out of a bad movie!

I don't understand why people who are not, and will never be, interns insist on posting on the threads in the "internship" forum.

It's an internship forum. Nobody kicked you off of SDN, just this particular forum. I don't see how that's terribly inappropriate, seeing as how you're not, and never will be, an intern.

Maybe I'm just missing something.

If the things were reversed - if you were venting on the Pharm forums, and doc02 was posting there and telling you how you should "feel" and "react" as a pharmacist....would you think it would be inappropriate for doc02 to get barred from the pharm forums? Seeing as how he's not a pharmacist, that would make sense to me too. Wouldn't it make sense to you?

 

[Tired]

Does it matter anymore if you were right or wrong in the instance you illuminated? Rightness can lead you right down the road to being "right" in the actual situation medically, but wrong in all the other ways. Give yourself time to think back - was there another way you could have been "right" and not have made someone feel as though he/she couldn't talk to you anymore or have perhaps felt badly personally. You won the battle, but who won the war - did anyone win the war - is winning the war the issue?

Do we need any more evidence that this forum needs to either be restricted to MDs, or else the rules about "incivility" done away with?

We experience internship, we tell stories about it, then we are subjected to endless second-guessing from self-righteous non-doctors who have never and will never possess the slightest understanding of what we do and what we go through to do it.

Seriously mods, how could anyone in the thick of internship not respond to this crap? But we're supposed to just sit and take it, otherwise all our threads get shut down.

I wouldn't be expected to take this pompous preaching from a pharmacist on the wards, why do I have to take it here, from one who's already been run out the Anesthesia forum by a different set of docs?

 

[chimichanga]

...I wouldn't be expected to take this pompous preaching from a pharmacist on the wards, why do I have to take it here, from one who's already been run out the Anesthesia forum by a different set of docs?

If you're not the one doing the preaching, then it seems unimportant to you. You've made that clear...

Last I saw, SDN's input was welcomed on gas forums, and in all of SDN...

She expresses an honest opinion, and is now the enemy, and one of the underlings (read:nurses)...

Sure there are some rogue (readisagrees w/ you) nurses here, but most are just defending their turf...

how's that arm after casting stones?

 

[chimichanga]

I respect nurses who do their job and understand what their job is...

Really?

You haven't shown it...

Not that you have to, but you sure spend a lot of energy selling your superiority...

We're not worthy...