Podiatry income across professions

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Dean’s Chat

Full Member
Lifetime Donor
Joined
Aug 31, 2023
Messages
56
Reaction score
70
Good morning, Here is income data for Podiatric Medicine and Surgery with other health professions!
Scroll down! General Podiatry $278k, Podiatry Surgery - Foot and Ankle $334k.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 users
Can you link some private practice jobs (the most common positions available) that are paying these salaries?
 
  • Like
  • Haha
  • Love
Reactions: 11 users
SDN needs to stop bashing podiatric medicine and the opportunity it provides for students. It gives you the opportunity help patients, make an incredible impact on their lives, and to be in the top 5% of earners in the US. Can you make more, sure - those numbers are average. Does Podiatric Medicine have challenges, yes, like all other professions! It's the same 10 people bashing podiatric medicine on these forums day after day, very unfortunate.
 
  • Like
  • Dislike
  • Haha
Reactions: 9 users
Members don't see this ad :)
6i2NRyfb0abu_Q0edkvOdvcM8qi5HbC73FrUIhTffmhsjcEqn3IB2X0vIQ7Wm_aJRDIGBjUGHPg6doDTpjPJp6D8HNlLzlfJyjd1pVw54bXHocXeHb56seV33p9S7YqcwknDb8ubLPEUGBhUSa2rJgA

fnX-qa78BmzIcgyv1F7liM8s-KGeaW0TYAp-Gk3Ncwbi5AXorNi6SRmmBlkzhjrzZApGPfI-DH7CyTslDBpMcW208h4Oq77JMTyy3UjncLBjvIF805IjgGNDZ9Ndkno4A1xG3MA5ZXldutdyGBau0SI

FdEcvf_5nzbPSKZ7Jl1hvsvQFL28f0o5A2KHZ_ueawRBlUR_8fJqhfg-yNlWWpCyzNoIBNqHe9LRXoMexxFWSjxLxE053JKq8VHoKuITB-skVfugNhZrUSJSQsyS7pVk2b9u3l6MTKuCAfVWRs6VhHE
F5qBjmjIjBEx2mDtQjtX4DrxQhUoy9c_cgydlE3XHpV06JiCDnqyNTbt2DPG4fTbOLXi12kKJnm8CiovhOzTNm5JTxsUDbwq3LHbWstbZpj-wnQdjTC8F6JLi7pYwqYe1YmBBcdDHI_tTF5HHYbr1JU

Edited to remove identifying provider information.
 
Last edited:
MGMA data is from hospital and large-group employers publishing incomes of their docs (such jobs are a small % of podiatrists).
As mentioned above, most podiatrists work in small/solo private practice (as evidenced by any income survey by ACFAS, APMA, PMNews, etc).
It is common knowledge to any resident or attending DPM that MGMA jobs are rare and coveted... absolutely not "those numbers are average."

Also, not all hospitals pay MGMA.
VA hospitals (the largest hospital employment type for DPMs), pays less then MGMA - yet they are still considered "good jobs" as they are over general average for a DPM.

SDN needs to stop bashing podiatric medicine and the opportunity it provides for students. It gives you the opportunity help patients, make an incredible impact on their lives, and to be in the top 5% of earners in the US. Can you make more, sure - those numbers are average. Does Podiatric Medicine have challenges, yes, like all other professions! It's the same 10 people bashing podiatric medicine on these forums day after day, very unfortunate.
Your dean job depends on attracting podiatry students and your institution's collection of tuition monies.

There is a clear motivation for you to promote podiatry as an excellent and lucrative career... in order to further your own income and self-interest and job security.

It's fine to promote podiatry if you choose (and you have every reason to choose!), but quoting MGMA data only applies to the relatively few DPM hospital or large group jobs. The majority of podiatrist jobs - private practice and even VA/IHS jobs - pay nothing near that. There is a reason any posted podiatry jobs with MGMA pay get hundreds of DPMs applying. They are rare jobs and NOT the norm for podiatry (as they are for MD/DO).

...The majority of DPMs simply work to treat patients and make a living. You have no say in what "SDN needs to." It is presumptuous and ridiculous for you to try shame or control people in a public forum in the quote above. You are - by your own volition - in an admin role and you do not even see patients. You are, by your own choosing, far disconnected from true day-to-day podiatry or the compensation or the job market - and have been for years. Nonetheless, you have your freedom of speech, as does anyone. To say MGMA data is accurate for podiatry overall is simply not accurate and will draw scoff from anyone who is in podiatry's job search or workforce. That shouldn't surprise you. :thumbup:
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: 14 users
Good morning, Here is income data for Podiatric Medicine and Surgery with other health professions!
Scroll down! General Podiatry $278k, Podiatry Surgery - Foot and Ankle $334k.

I believe podiatry is an amazing field with great opportunities. I am very pro podiatry, especially on the ROI. The emotional ROI from my profession is invaluable to me. Not everything in life is about money.

I have practiced for quite some time. I do not make very much money, not the amount you have listed here. Many of my friends in similar positions do not make the amount you have listed here.

I trim toenails, I fix the calluses of the elderly. I heal. Like I said, the smiles and gratitude of my patients is what fuels me each day.

This information you are spreading to attract new students is not the norm for podiatry. It is a great profession, but you are intentionally picking data that a small subset of podiatrists are a part of - hospital based RVU system.

You are a pillar and a leader in the profession. Thank you for everything that you do. I believe it is our job to spread truth to prospective students, and not mislead them with numbers that are only the norm for a small percentage of us.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: 7 users
Can you link some private practice jobs (the most common positions available) that are paying these salaries?
Can someone also link to a professor job at the podiatry school he admins that pays anywhere near these $278k and $334k salaries?
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
You can potentially make a very nice living in podiatry. Many certainly do.

This is much different than you will make a very nice living in podiatry immediately, where you want to live with great benefits and relocation assistance, loan repayment assistance, signing bonus, stipend while still in residency etc.

We all know what a typical associate gets paid.

Sure many/most move on and eventually earn more (some much, much more). It is not reassuring to potential applicants what our job market looks like. The job market is not good, which is certainly the exception for a healthcare career that requires this cost/length of training.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I worked in an Ortho group in Tennessee as my first job out with $180k base with 50:50 bonus once salary covered for first year, then keeping 50:50 (so essentially paying 50% overhead/ admin) after first year with no guarantee.

Second job with a large multispecialty group in Iowa paying $225k guarantee (no payback) with keeping all $$ (minus overhead ~40%) for first year then collections based after that (usually collecting about $700k) each year, obviously minus overhead.

This doesn’t include the surgery center I’m a partner in and the PA income from my physicians assistant.

My wife (also a podiatrist) made $200k working 3 days per week as a hospital employed podiatrist and now teaches at a pod school full time making just under $200k.

Just trying to provide some real examples of salaries.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Y’all gotta keep in mind MGMA is not salary… it’s total compensation (salary + benefits).
No, incorrect.^^
MGMA is basically salary and bonuses (RVU or call or collections or whatever)... any direct payments to employee doc (whether they then buy insurance or retirement or pay taxes or whatever with that cash). MGMA TCC does not include employER paid benefits (see "Not Included" under TCC in that link to MGMA website). Perhaps a HR negotiation person or savvy admin would tell a doc that MGMA does include "value of the benefits" to grind down their salary or total package, but that's just not true.

...More important, we're missing the mark. Let's not lose sight of the main things here:

  1. The vast majority of podiatry jobs do NOT pay based on MGMA data. They never have, never will.
  2. The vast majority of podiatry jobs (PP) are NOT polled for the MGMA data. You are looking at a tiny subset of DPMs with MGMA.
  3. Even many of the jobs which should pay podiatrists at/near MGMA rates (MSGs, supergroups, VAs, ortho groups, etc) often do not pay podiatrists those rates. For podiatry, the desired employers can ignore MGMA, simply because they are bombed with so many DPM applicants and know the pods will work for less because most of their peers happily do.

When a podiatry husband/wife couple (posted above) with basically the best podiatry residency surgery training in the whole country for DPMs say they were both below MGMA TCC rates and they are now at a bit below (him) and roughly half (her) the MGMA TCC pay the original dean poster is claiming to be "average" for all podiatrists, that tells you about all you need to know. Fwiw, they are doing quite well on income by actual podiatry standards (congrats)... but if that's a result for elite grads who matched well and worked hard and passed all boards, just imagine how most average/low quality residency DPM grads do. Again, that tells you a lot. $278k and $334k are not podiatrist average incomes... not even close to that. They're being touted simply as propaganda to drum up apps and student loans.

Bottom line:
  • MGMA doesn't apply to over 80% of podiatrists (private practice, solo, supergroup, house calls, pod school profs, govt VA/IHS, etc).
  • Ortho groups and smallish MSGs and small hospitals are a mixed bag at best. They generally do what they want for DPM income/offers.
  • MGMA best applies - err, should apply - to perhaps 10-20% of DPMs who I know and same % based on major podiatry practice surveys (non-govt hospital FTEs - usually medium/largish ones, "academic" hospitals, some large MSG pods eg Kaiser or Sutter or etc). The MGMA TCC income for DPMs is possible, but it's NOT average. It's a small minority of us... and many of those who land those jobs work pretty hard (call, weekends, long days, inpt work, many admins to answer to, often not top choice location, etc) after doing a good residency training and passing all boards. :thumbup:
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
No, incorrect.^^
MGMA is basically salary and bonuses (RVU or call or collections or whatever)... any direct payments to employee doc (whether they then buy insurance or retirement or pay taxes or whatever with that cash). MGMA TCC does not include employER paid benefits (see "Not Included" under TCC in that link to MGMA website). Perhaps a HR negotiation person or savvy admin would tell a doc that MGMA does include "value of the benefits" to grind down their salary or total package, but that's just not true.

...More important, we're missing the mark. Let's not lose sight of the main things here:

  1. The vast majority of podiatry jobs do NOT pay based on MGMA data. They never have, never will.
  2. The vast majority of podiatry jobs (PP) are NOT polled for the MGMA data. You are looking at a tiny subset of DPMs with MGMA.
  3. Even many of the jobs which should pay podiatrists at/near MGMA rates (MSGs, supergroups, VAs, ortho groups, etc) often do not pay podiatrists those rates. For podiatry, the desired employers can ignore MGMA, simply because they are bombed with so many DPM applicants and know the pods will work for less because most of their peers happily do.

When a podiatry husband/wife couple (posted above) with basically the best podiatry residency surgery training in the whole country for DPMs say they were both below MGMA TCC rates and they are now at a bit below (him) and roughly half (her) the MGMA TCC pay the original dean poster is claiming to be "average" for all podiatrists, that tells you about all you need to know. Fwiw, they are doing quite well on income by actual podiatry standards (congrats)... but if that's a result for elite grads who matched well and worked hard and passed all boards, just imagine how most average/low quality residency DPM grads do. Again, that tells you a lot. $278k and $334k are not podiatrist average incomes... not even close to that. They're being touted simply as propaganda to drum up apps and student loans.

Bottom line:
  • MGMA doesn't apply to over 80% of podiatrists (private practice, solo, supergroup, house calls, pod school profs, govt VA/IHS, etc).
  • Ortho groups and smallish MSGs and small hospitals are a mixed bag at best. They generally do what they want for DPM income/offers.
  • MGMA best applies - err, should apply - to perhaps 10-20% of DPMs who I know and same % based on major podiatry practice surveys (non-govt hospital FTEs - usually medium/largish ones, "academic" hospitals, some large MSG pods eg Kaiser or Sutter or etc). The MGMA TCC income for DPMs is possible, but it's NOT average. It's a small minority of us... and many of those who land those jobs work pretty hard (call, weekends, long days, inpt work, many admins to answer to, often not top choice location, etc) after doing a good residency training and passing all boards. :thumbup:
Insightful. Thanks for the links.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Private practice can be the most lucrative if you have a fair contract. First year I took home 250k, second year 340k, stagnated a bit, but once my clinic got really rolling and I made partner, last year I took home 450k, now on track to be over 550k. And I rarely use skin subs
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: 6 users
Podiatry is bipolar.

Plenty are making MD money (some as much as a low paid orthopedic surgeon) and plenty are making less than a well paid nurse. Most are making somewhere in between and the exact amount in between also varies greatly from one individual to the next.

Pre pods need to know they might do really great financially and they might not. They will not be recruited and will face a difficult job market compared to MDs and nurses, If one understands this and especially if they have a few things in their favor such as having a relative who owns a private practice, being charismatic, one of the better students/better residencies or fellowships, access to capital from family or high earning spouse (if need to open your own office), geographically open, home town is in one of the few unsaturated areas and have local connections etc then your odds are greater to do well. For nurses and MDs none of these extra things matter all that much as most will get very similar compensation for the area they chose to live in.

It only takes one good opportunity in your career for things to go from bad to great, even if this is making your own opportunity. The downside is if you never get or are able to make that one opportunity and just have a bad string of associate jobs. At the bottom there is no low hanging fruit in this profession. Definitely no fruit at the bottom in this profession and there will always be some at the bottom due to saturation and not a strong organizational demand. Some in the top 25 percent of this profession love to promote how great this profession can be without honesty portraying what it is like being in the bottom 25 percent. Statistically speaking as a pre pod your odds are just as likely to be at the bottom as they are the top. The profession can be great and very lucrative and it can also be the opposite. I am not discouraging anyone from entering the profession, but if one wants a "sure thing" as far as a career, well that is not podiatry.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Nothings a sure thing though, podiatry is an opportunity for a surgical career, it’s not a sure thing, and if your motivations for doing it isn’t well aligned, you’re setting yourself up for failure.

Example of terrible reasons to do podiatry that I’ve heard from colleagues (who have either quit or not done well)

- i got better grades than my boyfriend and he got in, so I probably will do well
- I want to be a surgeon but my grades are terrible and I don’t know how to study
- I was gonna do a masters but I happen to get in to podiatry school which didn’t require that I finish these other classes so I decided to go podiatry

I’ll be honest my reason when I was 20 years old to do podiatry wasn’t stellar either, my parents wanted me to pursue medicine and so I did, but grades weren’t good enough to get in MD school but I did have a competitive mcat score (top 85%) and I knew I had the grit to push through hard times. I got average grades in podiatry school graduated middle of the pack. Went to average residency, graduated with around 600 cases, most just second assist, worked my ass off once I got out in practice, switched 2 jobs and finally landed in a good gig. On paper my jobs that I applied for were below this MGMA data average yes, but once I found a fair contract with unlimited bonus potential and a fair boss to give it to me, I went hardcore on call doing everything and collected over 700k in my first fiscal year cus nobody in my community liked being on call

Edit: since this is prepod, you should know that collections for a priv practice business isn’t what you take home. You take home a % of collections based on your contract, or if you’re the owner/partner then it’s after overhead is paid. Mine was 35%. 5 years after priv practice now I’m collecting over a mil per year and so are all of my partners
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
They should fix residency salaries.
 
Good morning, Here is income data for Podiatric Medicine and Surgery with other health professions!
Scroll down! General Podiatry $278k, Podiatry Surgery - Foot and Ankle $334k.

MGMA is from hospital podiatrists who have access to large referral base and resources private practice podiatry (90% of profession) do NOT.

Podiatrists across the profession are not making 278k to 334k salaries.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
I like podiatry but for new grads it’s hard to find good jobs. They are out there but it’s not like other medical specialties.

Our emergency room is down 8 physicians and they are paying an insane amount of money for people to come through.

You won’t find that problem with podiatry.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I like podiatry but for new grads it’s hard to find good jobs. They are out there but it’s not like other medical specialties. ...
:thumbup:

It's hard for any DPM to find good jobs.
Excellent training or avg, 2 years out or 22 years out, BC or BQ or whatever. There are still very limited job options regardless; podiatry is saturated. The advantage for experienced DPMs is simply that they don't have a firm timeline (already have a job, can send out job apps on ongoing basis), they know how to play the job game better, and they often have savings to weather a job/income gap much better than a younger pod would. The experienced pod might also be more willing to relocate and/or have less expectation of a job than a new grad expecting to find a fantastic job quality or pay.

...Pre pods need to know they might do really great financially and they might not. They will not be recruited and will face a difficult job market compared to MDs and nurses...

...It only takes one good opportunity in your career for things to go from bad to great, even if this is making your own opportunity. The downside is if you never get or are able to make that one opportunity and just have a bad string of associate jobs....
100% ^^
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Good morning, Here is income data for Podiatric Medicine and Surgery with other health professions!
Scroll down! General Podiatry $278k, Podiatry Surgery - Foot and Ankle $334k.
This is very good. I am highly trained and have good connections in this field. I have never made 334k or 278k. I have friends making this money but they had to move elsewhere to get there. Propaganda is nice but when I finished training I had no options paying anywhere near these salaries. I am happy with my career choice, but for the work I do I should make 200k or more than I have per year. That eventually wears on you. Every year we graduate 100+ fellows. I think almost all of them would take my currant job if they had the chance, which pays less than the above mentioned salaries.
 
  • Like
  • Sad
Reactions: 4 users
I find this thread completely disingenuous and it is grossly misleading potential applicants. The thread should be locked.
I’m surprised that the OP called it “podiatric medicine” only 3 times.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 2 users
Well I sure as hell am... The poor ROI should be prohibitive for most prospective students.
Yah you are right.

Contrary to what some of the leaders and those associated with residencies and schools say I think many on here sort of defend podiatry more than we get credit for. We discuss the risky ROI, but then we go onto to say many do better than associate jobs eventually and talk about the high income some are making. This is not necessary discouraging to a pre med freshly rejected. I think what is happening is many pre meds are wisely considering a backup plan midway through college now and increasingly that is the midlevel careers. They are not waiting until taking the MCAT to get mail from podiatry schools to start considering a backup plan.

The truth is with a career path this expensive and long when comparing podiatry to comparable healthcare professions the lack of availability of good jobs in good locations (or any location for that matter) should cause most great concern.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I swear if these profs talked to prepods about pod school the same way we are ethically obligated to talk to patients about foot surgery (full disclosure of risks, realistic expectations of benefits), 2/3 of schools would vanish in a year
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
Azpod is in a lot of ways doing a great job as far as podiatry schools are concerned - small class size, strongly DO integrated, and it has higher matriculant stats than any other podiatry school. I would complain a lot less about podiatry if everyone was doing what they are doing.

That said, its very expensive in a world where podiatry school tuition inflation is greatly exceeding increases in podiatric reimbursement. I can understand why they would want to give students the impression that their future salary will be so high - its hard to justify school's prices without that sort of income at the end of it.

I don't make MGMA average income. Life is complicated and you try to take the best deal you can. I'm grateful to have graduated with very low debt - which would unfortunately be doubled under the tuition burdens of current students.

I would submit to future podiatry students that you need to look for feedback on here that is nuanced and explains itself. For example - MGMA data is real data (we don't have a lot of real data out there), its just not applicable to everyone (most people). It certaintly wasn't to me when I started at $75K. Whenever you hear a big salary number - someone is probably working hard for that. There are other forms of income - for example, owning your own property or surgery center ownership, but they can be capital intensive.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
I also make less than MGMA (and that'd be expected, because I'm not hospital employed).

Even the small minority DPMs who do manage to reach MGMA are not in line with MD/DO or CRNA.
  • The podiatrists have a much less transferable job (usually PP owner or landed a rare DPM hospital gig).
  • The podiatrists have worse ROI... they make roughly CRNA income at 3x CRNA tuition debt, or they make half MD/DO surgeon income yet same tuition debt.

Azpod is in a lot of ways doing a great job as far as podiatry schools are concerned - small class size, strongly DO integrated, and it has higher matriculant stats than any other podiatry school. I would complain a lot less about podiatry if everyone was doing what they are doing. ...
Yes, but the saturation crushes us regardless. UT Rio could be the best pod school now... but it's of no consequence. We are still saturated, and podiatry income and job options will continue to suffer. As long as podiatry continues to graduate 600+ yearly when we only really need around 200-300 (and we only have that many truly good DPM residency spots), we are all judged and income-limited by our lowest common denominators.

It's the same even for urologist or plastic surgeon or derm or whatever... if they had 2-3x as many as they do, demand and salaries suffer accordingly. It's not a knock on DPM being a fine and interesting job (to some people), but the ROI is barely ever good - even for elite training or very lucky DPMs.

...Pointing to MGMA data when only about 10% of DPMs have those hospital jobs to which it applies is misleading and deceptive. @Retrograde_Nail is absolutely correct.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I also make less than MGMA (and that'd be expected, because I'm not hospital employed).

Even the DPMs who do manage to reach MGMA are not in line with MD/DO or CRNA.
  • The podiatrists have a much less transferable job (usually PP owner or landed a rare DPM hospital gig).
  • The podiatrists have worse ROI... they make roughly CRNA income at 3x CRNA tuition debt, or they make half MD/DO surgeon income yet same tuition debt.


Yes, but the saturation crushes us regardless. UT Rio could be the best pod school now... but it's of no consequence. We are still saturated, and podiatry income and job options will continue to suffer. As long as podiatry continues to graduate 600+ yearly when we only really need around 200-300 (and we only have that many residency spots), we are judged and income-limited by our lowest common denominators.

It's the same even for urologist or plastic surgeon or derm or whatever... if they had 2-3x as many as they do, demand and salaries suffer accordingly.

...Pointing to MGMA data when only about 10% of DPMs have those hospital jobs to which it applies is misleading and deceptive. @Retrograde_Nail is absolutely correct.
I don't disagree with anything you said, but I will admit I've attempted to soften my arguments because otherwise the mods will just lock the thread and say its the same old people, saying the same old things. I also wonder - is it actually possible to get a response out of a podiatry booster on this forum if you talk gently to them.

This forum doesn't have pre-pods posting anymore. Is it because there aren't any? Is it because they know its an auto-accept? Or is it because it seems to be an unwelcoming an rigid place. I'm open to a variety of possibilities but I want to seem kind and approachable enough that if someone had a question for me - they'd ask it.

Here's a different story still. I've donated yearly to the APMA and my state organization. I'm listed in the APMA shadow guide thing. I respond to every student who asks to shadow telling them I'm open to whatever they want to see. Sidebar, every student shows up late. I've never confronted one about it but its bizarre to me. I've shown them a diversity of procedures, good post-ops. I talk them through x-rays and tell them what I'm thinking about each encounter. I do not hide nail/callus cutting from them and a student did once tell me "all your patients are bitches" which was hilarious, but cringe. Every single patient was somehow an obstinate old lady who just wanted to complain about calluses. I always tell students up front I'll write whatever letter they need for podiatry school. No one has ever taken me up on a letter. I do have a podiatry student who shadowed, is from the town, and keeps in touch - which I'll give him props for. I had classmates who shadowed Troy Boffeli so I can't claim to be that interesting, but I would have thought I'd have written a letter for someone by now.

I wrote the original post a few times ultimately settling on a softer version. I'll say what I almost said in the first post - the profession needs to confront its own dirty laundry rather than blaming SDN for airing it. Its one thing to talk about challenges. Its another thing to not do anything to solve them.
 
  • Like
  • Care
Reactions: 15 users
Agree this thread is full of misinformation and misleading to prepods. Do not expect to make the mgma amount, I just went through the grueling job search and it’s not accurate. Most jobs will offer you 80-120k base

And to @heybrother ‘s post. As a graduating resident who works closely with students. The past few classes have had a lot of lazy, entitled people come through. It could just be Gen Z. But it’s also just podiatry accepting anyone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
Based on the attendings I know, a lot of the hospital jobs definitely do not pay these MGMA rates. The smartest and hardest-working attending I know comes close, though - probably already is. And they earned their way to get there fair and square; taking call almost every day, seeing any patient and doing any case that came through the door, getting RRA certified, etc. Personally, I wouldn't want to do what they did to get there; a LOT of :1poop:-eating was involved. Seeing the path taken to get to that point adds a perspective that truly changes a person...

Otherwise, a good podiatry job is largely luck of the draw. IMO, the biggest factors that can tilt things in your favor are prior job experience, the connections you have, and how good looking you are (probably).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Based on the attendings I know, a lot of the hospital jobs definitely do not pay these MGMA rates. The smartest and hardest-working attending I know comes close, though - probably already is. And they earned their way to get there fair and square; taking call almost every day, seeing any patient and doing any case that came through the door, getting RRA certified, etc. Personally, I wouldn't want to do what they did to get there; a LOT of :1poop:-eating was involved. Seeing the path taken to get to that point adds a perspective that truly changes a person...

Otherwise, a good podiatry job is largely luck of the draw. IMO, the biggest factors that can tilt things in your favor are prior job experience, the connections you have, and how good looking you are (probably).
The numbers you see on MGMA are not base salaries. They are salaries and production added together. Probably some other bonuses included too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I can’t engage in the misery with you guys, but I just want anyone reading this to know that the successful people aren’t in here. You are only reading the thoughts of the few.

I know many pods making far more than MGMA. They are in Ortho groups, hospital employees, part of surgery centers, have PA’s and crush the MGMA numbers.

Are there some who accept low salaries and hurt the average salary $ for the rest of us? Absolutely.

I’m in a multispecialty group working 3.5 days per week making $250+, not including benefits, retirement, surgery center income, and PA income.
Podiatry has been the best decision of my life.

Those crushing it work hard and deserve every penny. They are busy enjoying life and no commiserating on a message board.

FYI: The best jobs are via word of mouth, recruiters, and who you know. The worst jobs are the ones that make it to job-posting boards.

All the best 👍🏻
Jeff
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 users
“I can’t engage in the misery with you guys, but I just want anyone reading this to know that the successful people aren’t in here.”

Jeff, I’m sure they are making memes of you on this holiday weekend.
 
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I can’t engage in the misery with you guys, but I just want anyone reading this to know that the successful people aren’t in here. You are only reading the thoughts of the few.

I know many pods making far more than MGMA. They are in Ortho groups, hospital employees, part of surgery centers, have PA’s and crush the MGMA numbers.

Are there some who accept low salaries and hurt the average salary $ for the rest of us? Absolutely.

I’m in a multispecialty group working 3.5 days per week making $250+, not including benefits, retirement, surgery center income, and PA income.
Podiatry has been the best decision of my life.

Those crushing it work hard and deserve every penny. They are busy enjoying life and no commiserating on a message board.

FYI: The best jobs are via word of mouth, recruiters, and who you know. The worst jobs are the ones that make it to job-posting boards.

All the best 👍🏻
Jeff

We already have plenty of people like you, but most of them have some perspective because they've worked private practice and nursing homes to make ends meet till they got their dream job. You'll have better luck communicating and developing rapport with people in this profession if you try a little harder to understand their situation. Some of us have to negotiate and deal with Humana, Aetna, and United. Some of us are paid dramatically less for the exact same services that hospital podiatrists perform.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
I can’t engage in the misery with you guys, but I just want anyone reading this to know that the successful people aren’t in here. You are only reading the thoughts of the few.

I know many pods making far more than MGMA. They are in Ortho groups, hospital employees, part of surgery centers, have PA’s and crush the MGMA numbers.

Are there some who accept low salaries and hurt the average salary $ for the rest of us? Absolutely.

I’m in a multispecialty group working 3.5 days per week making $250+, not including benefits, retirement, surgery center income, and PA income.
Podiatry has been the best decision of my life.

Those crushing it work hard and deserve every penny. They are busy enjoying life and no commiserating on a message board.

FYI: The best jobs are via word of mouth, recruiters, and who you know. The worst jobs are the ones that make it to job-posting boards.

All the best 👍🏻
Jeff
What other medical specialty only has good jobs that are “word of mouth”?

Only podiatry..

Prepods they don’t exist
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
Check out this job at UC San Diego: (CRNA) Nurse Anesthetist - Per Diem - 128037 UC San Diego hiring (CRNA) Nurse Anesthetist - Per Diem - 128037 in San Diego, CA | LinkedIn

This post is the difference between a profession in DEMAND vs podiatry. Nurse anesthesia job making just a hair less than my hourly rate and base salary. I had to negotiate that rate and salary with the hospital to get that. I had to fight for that based on past production. CRNAs can COMMAND that. A nurse…

This is what happens when the profession is over saturated.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
What other medical specialty only has good jobs that are “word of mouth”?

Only podiatry..

Prepods they don’t exist
Every good job is word of mouth, recruiter, or head hunter. Think of every CEO, Head Football Coach, Actuary, Financial Planner, etc. They aren’t finding those jobs on posting boards. They have proven their worth somewhere and are in high demand.

This is true in many medical specialties as well (at least the ones I know and interact with daily: Ortho, Peds, Radiology, Rheumatology, Neurology, GI, Optho).

Don’t think for a minute people just fall into great jobs. The best people in any profession network, collaborate, volunteer, show up early and stay late. There is a reason successful people are successful.

Also, bad-mouthing the profession does not help increase salary in any way - quite the opposite actually. I believe the saying is “Cutting off your nose to spite your face”.

I’d love to help facilitate ways that you guys think we could help improve the profession and bump salaries for everyone. I’m more than willing to listen to problems as long as we try to create solutions as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Some of us have to negotiate and deal with Humana, Aetna, and United. Some of us are paid dramatically less for the exact same services that hospital podiatrists perform.
Which is absolutely ridiculous and a reason I think many smaller practices are allowing themselves to be bought by investment groups. It increases the bargaining power with insurance panels and provides some amount of security in numbers.

I’m not sure those huge groups are the answer necessarily though. It would be nice if insurance panels were flat rate across the board without negotiation. Better yet, eliminate for-profit insurance companies keeping the healthcare dollars for themselves.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
… I just want anyone reading this to know that the successful people aren’t in here.
Quite a few of us are, actually. I am blessed to make MGMA salary, working 3.5ish days like you are, great bennies, etc. Like you, podiatry has been amazing to me, it just makes me sad seeing so many of my peers ending up in horrid-pay/horrid-lifestyle associateship jobs.

… and no, I won’t be making a meme of you 🙂
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
as an incoming PGY1, while on externships almost EVERYWHERE the PGY3 are getting 150k offers across the board or the local pp associate abuse mill put a paper ad up for positions in resident break rooms with way lower compensation lol
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Every good job is word of mouth, recruiter, or head hunter. Think of every CEO, Head Football Coach, Actuary, Financial Planner, etc. They aren’t finding those jobs on posting boards. They have proven their worth somewhere and are in high demand.

This is true in many medical specialties as well (at least the ones I know and interact with daily: Ortho, Peds, Radiology, Rheumatology, Neurology, GI, Optho).

Don’t think for a minute people just fall into great jobs. The best people in any profession network, collaborate, volunteer, show up early and stay late. There is a reason successful people are successful.

Also, bad-mouthing the profession does not help increase salary in any way - quite the opposite actually. I believe the saying is “Cutting off your nose to spite your face”.

I’d love to help facilitate ways that you guys think we could help improve the profession and bump salaries for everyone. I’m more than willing to listen to problems as long as we try to create solutions as well.
I work in a very large MSG.

We are always searching for derm, endocrinology, OBGYN, ophthalmology, and even urgent care docs. The group has done a ton of advertising and even willing to pay far beyond MGMA with very lucrative sign on offers few MSG/hospitals can offer. This is not word of mouth. This is simply supply and demand, and the above and more are in high demand. They got so desperate the hired a few NPs to staff the UC and their hourly rate far exceeds a new pod grad. Let that sink in.

Put aside all this talk about networking, experience, etc etc. just focus on saturation, supply and demand.

Podiatry is not in demand.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Every good job is word of mouth, recruiter, or head hunter. Think of every CEO, Head Football Coach, Actuary, Financial Planner, etc. They aren’t finding those jobs on posting boards. They have proven their worth somewhere and are in high demand.

This is true in many medical specialties as well (at least the ones I know and interact with daily: Ortho, Peds, Radiology, Rheumatology, Neurology, GI, Optho).

Don’t think for a minute people just fall into great jobs. The best people in any profession network, collaborate, volunteer, show up early and stay late. There is a reason successful people are successful.

Also, bad-mouthing the profession does not help increase salary in any way - quite the opposite actually. I believe the saying is “Cutting off your nose to spite your face”.

I’d love to help facilitate ways that you guys think we could help improve the profession and bump salaries for everyone. I’m more than willing to listen to problems as long as we try to create solutions as well.
Serious question. what advice would you have for a new resident/recent pod school grad who is jaded? Every job offer new residency grads get is about is 80-100k base with some ‘bonus’ that we all know will never come because well, podiatrists are cheap. With 300k in loans that’s pretty depressing. So a decline in students seems to be a glimmer of hope for the profession. Maybe if it goes down enough we will actually be in demand one day. I know residents contemplating going back to school for other professional degrees because the pay is so bad.
I tend to believe new graduates telling me these salaries as opposed to older docs who have money to gain from students coming to school promising ‘you'll make more than an MD/DO.’ (Yes, deans chat posted this on the website) which was cherry picked facts using mgma data for pods and bls.gov data for md’s. Literally lying to students to try and increase enrollment.
It seems the only way to fix the saturation/pay issue is stop enrolling 600 kids every year. This is a depressing thought. The only way to fix my career and it’s horrible pay is to hope that students stop enrolling in podiatry school? I am asking seriously if there is another way for us to be paid what we are worth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
Serious question. what advice would you have for a new resident/recent pod school grad who is jaded? Every job offer new residency grads get is about is 80-100k base with some ‘bonus’ that we all know will never come because well, podiatrists are cheap. With 300k in loans that’s pretty depressing. So a decline in students seems to be a glimmer of hope for the profession. Maybe if it goes down enough we will actually be in demand one day. I know residents contemplating going back to school for other professional degrees because the pay is so bad.
I tend to believe new graduates telling me these salaries as opposed to older docs who have money to gain from students coming to school promising ‘you'll make more than an MD/DO.’ (Yes, deans chat posted this on the website) which was cherry picked facts using mgma data for pods and bls.gov data for md’s. Literally lying to students to try and increase enrollment.
It seems the only way to fix the saturation/pay issue is stop enrolling 600 kids every year. This is a depressing thought. The only way to fix my career and it’s horrible pay is to hope that students stop enrolling in podiatry school? I am asking seriously if there is another way for us to be paid what we are worth.
There is certainly a sweet spot for the ideal number of graduates. Opening two new schools won’t help with the overall numbers.

Demand for podiatrists are based on saturation, so less densely populated areas may have a higher need.

The future might be a group of doctors practicing independently (meaning their income has no cap) but share a practice manager, insurance panels, billing/ coding staff, X-ray, office space, etc. The predatory nature of some private practice groups (Podiatry, Dentistry, and Fam Practice usually) is harmful. These tend to be on the decline luckily, but are still out there.

The fairest salary is not what someone *thinks* they are worth, but the simplest formula: Collections minus Overhead. If there is someone else keeping any other amount of that, it might be a bad deal.

Most podiatrists don’t stay in their first job, so even if a great job isn’t available to someone 1-4 years out of residency, the opportunities exist to move around and level up. Almost every one I know has changed jobs at least once. It’s not realistic to get hired at the best job out of residency, as they are more likely to hire someone with experience (maybe in that crappy first job).

I don’t have any magical solutions other than to say almost everyone I know has a great job (ortho groups, MSG, residency director, hospital employee), so my experience is that it is very possible and those jobs are out there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
There is certainly a sweet spot for the ideal number of graduates. Opening two new schools won’t help with the overall numbers.

Demand for podiatrists are based on saturation, so less densely populated areas may have a higher need.

The future might be a group of doctors practicing independently (meaning their income has no cap) but share a practice manager, insurance panels, billing/ coding staff, X-ray, office space, etc. The predatory nature of some private practice groups (Podiatry, Dentistry, and Fam Practice usually) is harmful. These tend to be on the decline luckily, but are still out there.

The fairest salary is not what someone *thinks* they are worth, but the simplest formula: Collections minus Overhead. If there is someone else keeping any other amount of that, it might be a bad deal.

Most podiatrists don’t stay in their first job, so even if a great job isn’t available to someone 1-4 years out of residency, the opportunities exist to move around and level up. Almost every one I know has changed jobs at least once. It’s not realistic to get hired at the best job out of residency, as they are more likely to hire someone with experience (maybe in that crappy first job).

I don’t have any magical solutions other than to say almost everyone I know has a great job (ortho groups, MSG, residency director, hospital employee), so my experience is that it is very possible and those jobs are out there.
So everyone is in agreement that we have an excess of students. Why then are we pushing deans chat and other sources with cherry picked information to promote more students applying? If we all agree we have too many students why is it a “student crisis” and not actually a good thing?
What can be done to close schools down?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
As we have covered over and over again on this forum, the ROI for podiatry is questionable/poor. Yes some pods come out and do ok. Many, will eventually bring in decent money, however, a not insignificant number come out poorly trained, with few job prospects and end up in nail jail. What other physician specialty can you name that has as poor of prospects for their new docs? I guess chiro's if you count them?

I don't buy the idea that all the good podiatry jobs are word of mouth because that's not how the rest of the medical world works. Go to a physician recruitment website and compare the specialties. Practicelink has 78 foot and ankle orthopedic jobs compared to 31 podiatry jobs. Annually we have around 500 graduating pod residents versus what 60 ortho foot and ankle fellows? Or look at the 2000+ internal med openings, 1000+ cardiology positions, 800+ dermatology openings. Apparently podiatry is the one medical specialty that doesn't advertise it's good jobs? I would also offer the personal anecdote, that on multiple occasions the off service residents I rotated with during residency, would discuss the weekly recruitment offers they got from various hospitals. Maybe once or twice a year I receive a recruitment letter from a nursing home service.

Personally, I advise shadowing students to consider a different career. Ethically, I just cannot encourage students to take out 300k in loans when maybe 25% of them will get a good paying hospital job coming out. The rest will struggle to find a good job and some will even end up in nursing homes making 110k with minimal benefits. Do MD/DO's come out expecting to have to change jobs multiple times before they find a worthwhile position? Yes the income ceiling can be high with podiatry but the floor is so so much lower for pods than MD/DO's and the expense (time and money) is high compared to midlevel providers. Hell, a dental hygienist can make 80k on a two year associate degree but many pods are making low 6 figures on 11 years of school/training! I just don't think older pods can fully appreciate the impact of today's higher tuition and compounding interest. Biden's SAVE plan makes podiatry slightly more palatable by alleviating compounding interest, in my opinion, but it may not pass legal challenges. 300k +6.5% compounding interest is devastating for a PP associate making 150k.

I'm not sure there is a good solution to this problem. Perhaps it will sort itself out? If I could magically change things, I'd reduce enrollment by about 50% to increase demand for graduates. Then I would use every possible podiatry associated PAC dollar I could to push for a nationwide change allowing RFC to be done by a nail technician supervised by a podiatrist. This would alleviate the demand for elderly RFC while allowing the non-op PP pods to make a decent living on the backs of an army of nail techs. Meanwhile, the hospital/surgical pods are busier due to the lower number of graduating pods. This would have an added bonus that since fewer docs are doing surgery, those that are doing surgery are doing more of them and would thus be even more proficient. Our residency training would hopefully improve as the poorer residency would be unable to fill. However, our leaders at nearly every level seem to disagree and continue to tout the recruitment crisis line.

Edit: Full disclosure, I have no idea how to push for a change in RFC Medicare coverage. It may not be possible even with lobbying.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Was debating about taking pre-reqs for nursing during residency so I can go for my RN afterward.
 
So everyone is in agreement that we have an excess of students. Why then are we pushing deans chat and other sources with cherry picked information to promote more students applying? If we all agree we have too many students why is it a “student crisis” and not actually a good thing?
What can be done to close schools down?
More students applying means that there will be better quality matriculants. Right now some schools are accepting poor candidates to fill classes. Increasing the number of applicants is a good thing for the profession. It allows for better quality graduates, which improves the field as a whole.

There are some schools that need to have their school classes cut down though.

That being said, the profession is as good as it has ever been right now. High quality residencies (I know many directors personally) with really impressive fellowships, and pods are integrating with hospital staffs, ortho groups, and multi-specialty groups. It didn’t used to be like this and it continues to improve year over year.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
as an incoming PGY1, while on externships almost EVERYWHERE the PGY3 are getting 150k offers across the board or the local pp associate abuse mill put a paper ad up for positions in resident break rooms with way lower compensation lol
So the main issue that I'm seeing is that employers are willing to raise the floor a little but at a cost down the line. The main problem comes in that the bonus structure still doesnt allow you to grow that money. I'm seeing many contracts where you need to pull in 2.5-3.5x base before bonuses kick in. So the employers will front you the money but then you will earn less on the back end if you do succeed. Another tactic is deducting the cost of DME against you or finding health insurance plans with 5k deductible to enroll you in.

For any move that comes with a bump in pay is a mustache pod one step ahead to shut down your ability to earn.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
More students applying means that there will be better quality matriculants. Right now some schools are accepting poor candidates to fill classes. Increasing the number of applicants is a good thing for the profession. It allows for better quality graduates, which improves the field as a whole. ...
This is not true. I wish it were. It sounds fine in theory but just does not materialize.

99% of students not accepted at DMU, UTRio, AZPod, etc will simply be accepted at low level schools like NY or Kent podiatry with scholarship.
The low quality applicants will still be there, and many of them will graduate. The only reason KSU and LECOM and SMU pod and etc are not bigger classes right now is because they didn't have enough apps. The only reason app numbers for pod schools are higher than incoming/matriculant pod students is because many "pod" apps choose to go to MD/DO or SMP or Pharma or whatever instead.

That is how podiatry school is - and always has been. The accept rate is basically and effectively 100%.
As it stands, more pod apps simply equals more grads. More grads simply means even less jobs/pay and residency shortage and/or more bogus residencies stay open.

Now, if we somehow had 600 apps for 300 podiatry spots, then yes... I would agree: up the app numbers and keep increasing student/grad talent. However, it's not that way at all. We have far too many pod student spots, and we will suffer the fate of phamacy schools (schools close/reduce as job market and ROI get increasingly worse and people accordingly stop applying).

...That being said, the profession is as good as it has ever been right now. High quality residencies (I know many directors personally) with really impressive fellowships, and pods are integrating with hospital staffs, ortho groups, and multi-specialty groups. It didn’t used to be like this and it continues to improve year over year.
It all depends who you talk to.

The 'word of mouth' argument is not a good one. It has been tried again and again in podiatry. It makes no sense, as stated above multiple times.. that any MD/DO specialty, AA, nurses, CRNA, etc all have tons of good jobs posted and podiatry has very very little? There are a few - but there are not a plethora - of hidden or secret handshake good pay and good quality podiatry jobs. Many grads are taking the exact jobs advertised. Pod pgy3s from all qualities of pod residencies complain year after year about the jobs they try to find... and the jobs they eventually settle on. The trend now is to do fellowship to buy time, but that seldom ends up very much better. Is some of it laziness...."show up early and stay late," as you say? A bit, maybe... but the clear fact is that we are saturated.

Yes, top podiatry grads/residents, can sometimes almost backdoor their way into doing work of an ortho F&A (although at half the pay). It will be different for people, such as yourself, who got top training and network which comes with it. Our training has technically improved in that way. Some podiatry training programs are more integrated with ortho than years past. I agree. The top training is better than ever, and that's a very good thing... but we're talking about maybe 20-25% of DPM residencies. It is myopic to think that it's that way for all podiatrists. It would be like if I was saying "just tap into the 100+ alumni network at your program" or "just start your own office and you'll make more money" when those things are simply not available to most average DPMs.

Many of our average and lower residencies are still junkers... many residencies have been diluted to accommodate new schools or for attendings to spin cases off to make fellowship spots. This is evidenced by the low board pass, low incomes, very few jobs, increasing saturation. To the public, we are all "three year foot and ankle surgeons." An extra year or more cases just doesn't overcome simple supply and demand.

In income terms, for most DPM grads, podiatry is as bad as it has ever been.
When I finished, it was rougly $200k student debt and taking 80-120k jobs. That is rougly 2:1 ROI for tuition: income.
Now, it's roughly $400k debt for jobs $125-150k. That ROI of 3:1 or worse (many even add 8th fellowship year with interest piling on).
In private practice, where most DPMs work, the reimbursements are basically stagnant despite inflation, labor, and supplies going steadily up.

The rare bright spot for pod pay is probably more spots and better (parity) pay at VA jobs. The VA pay scale is one MDs still avoid like leprosy... yet DPMs now fight very hard to get hired for that wage. Again, the fact that we covet VA/IHS jobs that MD/DO hardly give a passing glance to tells you about all you need to know about the income and job option gaps. :)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Top