Poor poor guy

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Yes, someone who fails to pass the boards cannot be licensed as a physician.

The advisor doesn't really know the fields of health care and goes down a bunch of blind alleys with PA, RN, etc... I'd suggest that the guy ought to look into a career in sales of pharmaceuticals or devices.
 
LizzyM said:
Yes, someone who fails to pass the boards cannot be licensed as a physician.

The advisor doesn't really know the fields of health care and goes down a bunch of blind alleys with PA, RN, etc... I'd suggest that the guy ought to look into a career in sales of pharmaceuticals or devices.
Click to expand...

Yeah Dave Ramsey is pretty awesome but he doesn’t know anything about healthcare. I took one of his classes and it was super helpful.
 
LizzyM said:
Yes, someone who fails to pass the boards cannot be licensed as a physician.

The advisor doesn't really know the fields of health care and goes down a bunch of blind alleys with PA, RN, etc... I'd suggest that the guy ought to look into a career in sales of pharmaceuticals or devices.
Click to expand...

What's the limit to how many times you can take it? Just keep trying and trying? I know someone that failed step one three times... Is now a practicing physician but...
 
chemdoctor said:
What's the limit to how many times you can take it? Just keep trying and trying? I know someone that failed step one three times... Is now a practicing physician but...
Click to expand...

It depends on the school. Some schools will not allow unlimited retakes, while others don't have a policy on it.

It's scary, but not THAT scary. Step 1 isn't THAT hard, and it's not a secret that you need to study a lot for it. It's also not a secret when it's coming up, so you have plenty of time to plan for it. The vast majority of people who take Step 1 will pass it within the first attempt or two.

It's also not that difficult of an exam, in the grand scheme of things. If you can't pass Step 1 within 3 tries, that's indicative of a problem.
 
smq123 said:
It depends on the school. Some schools will not allow unlimited retakes, while others don't have a policy on it.

It's scary, but not THAT scary. Step 1 isn't THAT hard, and it's not a secret that you need to study a lot for it. It's also not a secret when it's coming up, so you have plenty of time to plan for it. The vast majority of people who take Step 1 will pass it within the first attempt or two.

It's also not that difficult of an exam, in the grand scheme of things. If you can't pass Step 1 within 3 tries, that's indicative of a problem.
Click to expand...

What about for people that aren't great test takers? Yeah you need to study a lot no doubt. But It's still such a difficult test... Just for reference, I am not in med school. Just a premed, but not the best test taker... just scared of the tests. I know I gotta take them.
 
chemdoctor said:
No doubt. Well, I mean bad standardized test takers in general...
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You need to know the material. You need to be able to think critically and apply the material in context. Tutoring and test prep can help and a school should have that available for students who need it.

You need to get a grip on your emotions, particularly anxiety. Often the problem is not with the fund of knowledge but with nervousness. Counseling and coaching can help in that regard and schools should make such services available to students who need them.
 
chemdoctor said:
What about for people that aren't great test takers? Yeah you need to study a lot no doubt. But It's still such a difficult test... Just for reference, I am not in med school. Just a premed, but not the best test taker... just scared of the tests. I know I gotta take them.
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I'm not a good test taker. I have high anxiety, and I tend to overthink things when I'm that anxious. (One of the many reasons that emergency medicine was not a good choice for me.) I still passed Step 1 on the first try. Almost all of my classmates did as well.

Plus, Step 1 is one of the few exams that you will have several weeks of time dedicated to study for it. Step 2 and Step 3 you take while doing rotations/residency. Board exams you take shortly after residency ends; in some cases, you have to study for those WHILE seeing patients as an attending physician. Step 1 is a difficult exam in that it's a lot of material, but it's all stuff that you've already seen and been tested on, and if you have ANY common sense at all, you will have studied several weeks for it. Most people do just fine.
 
LizzyM said:
You need to know the material. You need to be able to think critically and apply the material in context. Tutoring and test prep can help and a school should have that available for students who need it.

You need to get a grip on your emotions, particularly anxiety. Often the problem is not with the fund of knowledge but with nervousness. Counseling and coaching can help in that regard and schools should make such services available to students who need them.
Click to expand...

Do you think counseling and coaching can really help? Could it help with anxiety?
 
smq123 said:
I'm not a good test taker. I have high anxiety, and I tend to overthink things when I'm that anxious. (One of the many reasons that emergency medicine was not a good choice for me.) I still passed Step 1 on the first try. Almost all of my classmates did as well.

Plus, Step 1 is one of the few exams that you will have several weeks of time dedicated to study for it. Step 2 and Step 3 you take while doing rotations/residency. Board exams you take shortly after residency ends; in some cases, you have to study for those WHILE seeing patients as an attending physician. Step 1 is a difficult exam in that it's a lot of material, but it's all stuff that you've already seen and been tested on, and if you have ANY common sense at all, you will have studied several weeks for it. Most people do just fine.
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Really?! SO THERSS HOPE FOR ME. Could I PM you?
 
The passing threshold for usmle is low. If you go to a us med school and actually try to study then you will pass. The concern is by how much you will pass, not if you will pass.

The only people who fail usmle are
1. Lazy students who never go to class l, don’t read, and only study a few hours before each exam. They barely pass each exam, typically fail a couple and maybe have to repeat a class. They get to step 1 and fail by a few points. They get their act together just enough to barely pass it the second time and go on to barely passing third year, matching into a terrible residency, and becoming an incompetent physician. There were about 2 people in my class like this.
2. People who had absolutely zero business being in Med school to begin with. People with 2.8 GPAs and 22 MCAT scores. They aren’t smart enough and somebody did them a huge disservice by letting them in. These people fail step 1 by about 20 points and typically fail it again by the same margin and have to drop out. There were about two people in my class like this.
3. Foreign Med students. They typically score extremely high on step 1 but cannot pass step 2 due to English proficiency issues. I knew one person like this.

The rest of the 160 so Med students in my class passed by > 20 points at a minimum.

Now passing your specialty boards is a totally different issue. Competent people who have studied extensively can still fail these randomly. Especially specialties with oral boards. These are the scary exams when it comes to failing out of the blue.
 
@atomi

Really? Yeah I suppose so... It’s just objectively speaking, it’s such a damn hard exam
 
chemdoctor said:
@atomi

Really? Yeah I suppose so... It’s just objectively speaking, it’s such a damn hard exam
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I'm not sure where you got this idea. You make it sound like the exam you have to pass to become a Navy SEAL.

I think that you're building it WAY up in your head; this may explain some of your test taking anxiety.
 
chemdoctor said:
@atomi

Really? Yeah I suppose so... It’s just objectively speaking, it’s such a damn hard exam
Click to expand...

I just wanted to also chime in and say that you are not alone as being a bad standardized test taker. I've always been bad from the ACTs and SATs and don't even get me started on the MCAT. But I got a pretty good score on STEP1 and eventually destroyed my written boards so it is not impossible to be successful even if you're a "bad test taker". What you need to do is identify your weakness and address it. You can learn how to be a better test taker. Unlike the MCAT, STEP1 is rather formulaic. Once you get the knowledge portion down, you just have to practice, practice, practice and learn to pattern recognize certain key words or phrases that tells you the answer. It's as much of learning how to take the test when you're learning the material. UWorld is probably the best resource in preparation for that test.

I'd also like to echo what smq123 said. You're putting the STEP1 on this insurmountable pedestal. Is it important? Yes. Is it hard by virtue of the amount of information you need to know? Yes. Is it impossible? No. What you need to do is to tackle it in an organized and consistent method. Break up the material into small groups that you can study. So for example Monday is renal and cardio, Tuesday is pulmonary and anatomy, etc etc. This way you get repeated exposure to focused concepts that entire day doing questions. Then you take an NBME at the end of the week to gauge. This makes it more bearable and you're not flipping between different topics all the time.

Just relax. It's daunting now but once you get to it it's a lot better. You know the material and as you progress into your specific fields it's something you see everyday so you become more comfortable about it.
 
smq123 said:
I'm not sure where you got this idea. You make it sound like the exam you have to pass to become a Navy SEAL.

I think that you're building it WAY up in your head; this may explain some of your test taking anxiety.
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Actually the written exam you have to take to become a SEAL is the same one we all take when enlisting. It’s really easy lol. The physical stuff on the other hand...
 
smq123 said:
I'm not sure where you got this idea. You make it sound like the exam you have to pass to become a Navy SEAL.

I think that you're building it WAY up in your head; this may explain some of your test taking anxiety.
Click to expand...

Yeah probably. I always do that. I just get nervous and think “what if I fail”
 
chemdoctor said:
@atomi

Really? Yeah I suppose so... It’s just objectively speaking, it’s such a damn hard exam
Click to expand...

It’s a hard exam if you try to study for it without having gone to a day of medical school.

If you go to class every day and do all the readings, assignments, and labs, then you will be well prepared.

It’s like your driving test, theoretically you can pass never having been behind the wheel just by reading about how the pedals and gears work. But that would be really, really hard. But if you’ve been practicing driving for months, it’s really just a formality. Sure you might be a little nervous and screw a couple of things up due to being nervous but it’s virtually impossible to outright fail because you’re not going to run a red light or drive down the wrong side of the interstate. You’re just not.
 
atomi said:
The passing threshold for usmle is low. If you go to a us med school and actually try to study then you will pass. The concern is by how much you will pass, not if you will pass.

The only people who fail usmle are
1. Lazy students who never go to class l, don’t read, and only study a few hours before each exam. They barely pass each exam, typically fail a couple and maybe have to repeat a class. They get to step 1 and fail by a few points. They get their act together just enough to barely pass it the second time and go on to barely passing third year, matching into a terrible residency, and becoming an incompetent physician. There were about 2 people in my class like this.
2. People who had absolutely zero business being in Med school to begin with. People with 2.8 GPAs and 22 MCAT scores. They aren’t smart enough and somebody did them a huge disservice by letting them in. These people fail step 1 by about 20 points and typically fail it again by the same margin and have to drop out. There were about two people in my class like this.
3. Foreign Med students. They typically score extremely high on step 1 but cannot pass step 2 due to English proficiency issues. I knew one person like this.

The rest of the 160 so Med students in my class passed by > 20 points at a minimum.

Now passing your specialty boards is a totally different issue. Competent people who have studied extensively can still fail these randomly. Especially specialties with oral boards. These are the scary exams when it comes to failing out of the blue.
Click to expand...
My learned colleague's observations are spot on. I can't speak as to USMLE, but at my school, COMLEX failures fall into two categories:
#1 as per atomi's post (at my school, we don't admit the #2's). These come as no surprise when they fail

Those rare people who do surprise us usually have some life even pop up right before Boards.

Keep in mind that the vast majority of those who fail Boards on the 1st attempt pass on the 2nd try.
 
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smq123 said:
It depends on the school. Some schools will not allow unlimited retakes, while others don't have a policy on it.

It's scary, but not THAT scary. Step 1 isn't THAT hard, and it's not a secret that you need to study a lot for it. It's also not a secret when it's coming up, so you have plenty of time to plan for it. The vast majority of people who take Step 1 will pass it within the first attempt or two.

It's also not that difficult of an exam, in the grand scheme of things. If you can't pass Step 1 within 3 tries, that's indicative of a problem.
Click to expand...

That seems like something that should be consistent from school to school.Like at one school someone can fail Step1 3x and still be a doctor and at another school that same person would be kicked out? That's too big of an inconsistency in my book, but maybe I'm just delusional.

And was it that obvious he went to the Carib? Was that made clear in the video somehow ( referring to Goro's post).
 
mwsapphire said:
That seems like something that should be consistent from school to school.Like at one school someone can fail Step1 3x and still be a doctor and at another school that same person would be kicked out? That's too big of an inconsistency in my book, but maybe I'm just delusional.

And was it that obvious he went to the Carib? Was that made clear in the video somehow ( referring to Goro's post).
Click to expand...

So I will admit that I had never really looked that closely at the rules surrounding Step 1 and the number of allowed attempts. Like I said, if you can't pass it on the 2nd try, and you're a native English speaker, there are some SERIOUS problems. Furthermore, the chance that you will match after multiple Step 1 failures is reallllllly low. (Basically zero.)

But after your post, I got curious enough to look up the full rules.

According to the USMLE, you are allowed a total of 6 attempts for any of the steps. Furthermore, you're only allowed 3 re-takes in a twelve month period. Attempt #4 has to be 12 months after Attempt #1, and at least 6 months after Attempt #3.

The issue with multiple failures for American medical students (especially MD) is timing. Since most schools require that you have passed Step 1 in order to continue with your 3rd year clinical rotations, you have to take Step 1 in the 2-3 month window between MS2 and MS3. So even if some schools don't necessarily limit the number of failures, the timing makes it very very difficult. DOs that only have to pass the COMLEX, but want to take both the COMLEX and USMLE, might conceivably get away with multiple USMLE failures. However, to be honest, if you can pass the COMLEX on the first or second try, you can probably pass the USMLE on the first or second try, too.

So while I get what you're saying, I think that whether or not the school formally limits Step 1 attempts is kind of a wash. A) Logistically, it's too hard to navigate that many failures in addition to clinical rotations, and B) with multiple Step 1 failures, it's highly highly unlikely that you'll match, so what's the point of continuing on and accumulating more debt?
 
So I listened to the Dave Ramsey clip more closely. And now I'm confused.

He says that he failed "two sets" of boards. What does that mean? You can't take Step 2 without a passing Step 1 score. But I don't know of any schools that will kick you out for failing both Step 1 and Step 2, as long as you do pass them within the recommended time frame (although you're very unlikely to match). So does that mean that he failed Step 1 twice? Or that he failed COMLEX 1 and USMLE 1? His story is a little confusing.

I also find it extremely hard to believe that he did "very well" during MS1 and MS2, and then magically fell apart the summer after MS2. The worst case scenario for Step 1 is that you never properly learned the material, and are forced to teach yourself the subject matter in the weeks before Step 1. What he's saying makes no sense.
 
His suggestions aren't much better at all than high school science teacher. At least he has job stability and some kind of pension that way; long summers to take the edge of a 5-figure salary off. With the obama administration cap of 10% of income or whatever on loan repayments its not the life he wants but it isn't bad.

That there is no alternative route to a decent job for failed premeds or medical students is an issue. It always sort of amazed me the hoops people need to go through to be a PA. Its like an entire different path and not something you can move into laterally. I don't know. It always seemed wrong that someone a hair away from getting into medical school or who failed to match is worth 'nothing'.
 
Goro said:
Fixed! Good eagle eyes, wise colleague.
Click to expand...

Unless I’m misreading the data from the usmle link I posted, that’s actually not true. While 96% of first time takers pass, only 67% of repeat takers passed. What that tells me is that if you fail the test the first time, there is probably a serious deficiency or an extreme extenuating circumstance going on, and worrying about failing step shouldn’t even be on the radar for the vast majority.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Unless I’m misreading the data from the usmle link I posted, that’s actually not true. While 96% of first time takers pass, only 67% of repeat takers passed. What that tells me is that if you fail the test the first time, there is probably a serious deficiency or an extreme extenuating circumstance going on, and worrying about failing step shouldn’t even be on the radar for the vast majority.
Click to expand...
Ahh, I was discussing COMLEX.
 
mwsapphire said:
That seems like something that should be consistent from school to school.Like at one school someone can fail Step1 3x and still be a doctor and at another school that same person would be kicked out? That's too big of an inconsistency in my book, but maybe I'm just delusional.

And was it that obvious he went to the Carib? Was that made clear in the video somehow ( referring to Goro's post).
Click to expand...
The problem is licensure.

There's states that won't license you if you fail after 3 attempts. Schools typically won't graduate someone who is not able to be licensed in all 50 states, so that's the basis for that policy. There are probably some schools out there that don't make it quite so strict, but that's more common than not.
 
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