Possible to get a dermpath fellowship without any publications?

[icpshootyz]

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Hi all, it's probably a moot point to even ask the question, but I figured I'd see if anyone knows of dermpath fellowships that are more favorable to the diagnostic-minded among us who have little-to-no interest in research. I recognize that it is hard to show that I have an interest in the field without publishing in the field, but for me research and writing for publication is like having needles inserted under my fingernails. I love the complexity of dermpath as well as the close clinical/pathologic correlation, and I love the myriad of challenging diagnoses it presents. I even liked doing the slide review and data analysis of a research project, but writing the final paper just made me miserable. From talking to attendings/fellows who have gone through the dermpath process it seems like getting the fellowship has become a publication contest. Does anyone have any other advice for getting into the field I love? Or alternatively is it possible to sign-out derm in some places without doing the fellowship and being board-certified these days? For what it's worth I'm in my 3rd year AP/CP at one of the Harvard path programs.

 

[exPCM]

Hi all, it's probably a moot point to even ask the question, but I figured I'd see if anyone knows of dermpath fellowships that are more favorable to the diagnostic-minded among us who have little-to-no interest in research. I recognize that it is hard to show that I have an interest in the field without publishing in the field, but for me research and writing for publication is like having needles inserted under my fingernails. I love the complexity of dermpath as well as the close clinical/pathologic correlation, and I love the myriad of challenging diagnoses it presents. I even liked doing the slide review and data analysis of a research project, but writing the final paper just made me miserable. From talking to attendings/fellows who have gone through the dermpath process it seems like getting the fellowship has become a publication contest. Does anyone have any other advice for getting into the field I love? Or alternatively is it possible to sign-out derm in some places without doing the fellowship and being board-certified these days? For what it's worth I'm in my 3rd year AP/CP at one of the Harvard path programs.

Your attendings are correct.
Chances of dermpath fellowship with zero research is effectively zero.
Chances of getting dermpath job without fellowship is effectively zero.
If you are a third year in AP/CP then you may have already missed the deadlines for a few programs for the 2011 fellowships. The time to apply for 2011 fellowships is now.

 

[yaah]

Some people get fellowships with zero publications, but it's rare. And if so, they probably have done projects, just that the papers haven't been published yet. Connections would be important in this case.

And yes, it would be hard to get a dermpath job without a fellowship, expcm is right. There are community people who sign out dermpath and who didn't do dermpath fellowships, but these people are continuously diminishing as the derms take the specimens back or have them sent to experts. If you have been in practice awhile and your local dermatologists respect you it probably doens't matter if you have a fellowship or not, but for a new guy, it does.

And bear in mind that loving dermpath and loving the diagnostic side of things does not distinguish you. Everybody who applies for it says this, including the people with 10 publications and a research grant.

 

[Patho2009]

The issue of publications is always exaggerated. I think your letters of recommendation and your attendings' connections to fellowships' directors is much more powerful. Factors such as whether or not your residency is a well-reputed is also important. Taken all together, they outwiegh the publications!. I personally know people who don't have any publications and they were successful to get what they want...and vice versa!!

If your residency is weak or average, publications might balance out...and so on.

 

[exPCM]

Some people get fellowships with zero publications, but it's rare. And if so, they probably have done projects, just that the papers haven't been published yet. Connections would be important in this case.

And yes, it would be hard to get a dermpath job without a fellowship, expcm is right. There are community people who sign out dermpath and who didn't do dermpath fellowships, but these people are continuously diminishing as the derms take the specimens back or have them sent to experts. If you have been in practice awhile and your local dermatologists respect you it probably doens't matter if you have a fellowship or not, but for a new guy, it does.

And bear in mind that loving dermpath and loving the diagnostic side of things does not distinguish you. Everybody who applies for it says this, including the people with 10 publications and a research grant.

Completely agree with this post.

The issue of publications is always exaggerated. I think your letters of recommendation and your attendings' connections to fellowships' directors is much more powerful. Factors such as whether or not your residency is a well-reputed is also important. Taken all together, they outwiegh the publications!. I personally know people who don't have any publications and they were successful to get what they want...and vice versa!!

If your residency is weak or average, publications might balance out...and so on.

You can go to the Himalayas and you may possibly see a snow leopard but the odds are very long. If you really want to see a snow leopard I would recommend going to a zoo.
As for research - you may possibly get a dermpath fellowship without it but the odds are very long (effectively zero). So if you really want to be competitive then do some research.

 

[BrainPathology]

Hi all, it's probably a moot point to even ask the question, but I figured I'd see if anyone knows of dermpath fellowships that are more favorable to the diagnostic-minded among us who have little-to-no interest in research. I recognize that it is hard to show that I have an interest in the field without publishing in the field, but for me research and writing for publication is like having needles inserted under my fingernails. I love the complexity of dermpath as well as the close clinical/pathologic correlation, and I love the myriad of challenging diagnoses it presents. I even liked doing the slide review and data analysis of a research project, but writing the final paper just made me miserable. From talking to attendings/fellows who have gone through the dermpath process it seems like getting the fellowship has become a publication contest. Does anyone have any other advice for getting into the field I love? Or alternatively is it possible to sign-out derm in some places without doing the fellowship and being board-certified these days? For what it's worth I'm in my 3rd year AP/CP at one of the Harvard path programs.

If you like doing data analysis and slide review find another resident who likes the writing part. This might be especially appealing to residents in specialties other than pathology. There are always animal models of tumors that people are working on.. find some derm models and offer to help with the Path, data, library research, ect in exchange for doing less of the writing (I imagine you'd still have to write a few paragraphs on the pathology part though) Do several projects together like this where the data analysis and slide review (or every other aspect equals or outweighs the actual writing part) and alternate who is first and second author. Since it's your 3rd year it might be hard to do "several" but you could certainly do 2 or 3 if you worked at it.

 

[pathstudent]

What I don't get is that dermoath seems ideal for community practice types so why should you show a committment to academics. Peds path fellowships, Renal path fellowships, pulmonary path fellowships, chemical pathology fellowships all are obviously suited towards academics and dermoath definitively isn't so why the hell do you need paparrs to get into it. Same with gi and gu pathology. There is nothing inherently academic about those fields. So why should fellowship directors require applicants to feign an academic interest?

 

[yaah]

What I don't get is that dermoath seems ideal for community practice types so why should you show a committment to academics. Peds path fellowships, Renal path fellowships, pulmonary path fellowships, chemical pathology fellowships all are obviously suited towards academics and dermoath definitively isn't so why the hell do you need paparrs to get into it. Same with gi and gu pathology. There is nothing inherently academic about those fields. So why should fellowship directors require applicants to feign an academic interest?

Those "community" specialties are just as academic as the others. They are more practical for community practice, yes, but they vital to academics also. Do you think academics don't see any of these specimens? Dermpath is one of the most academic fields there is, because of the variety of specimen you can see and the research angles you can take. There are many people who go into dermpath precisely because of the research side. Pathology departments also often make a lot of money off of dermpath (and the others), so it is academic in that sense also.

Fellowship directors are always looking to train future leaders in the field, and often (but not always) future leaders in the field go into academics. So there is often a bias towards selecting candidates with an academic interest.

 

[pathstudent]

Dermoath just seems conducive to signing out a million cases a day. I haze heard that leboit is like a robot and signs out case after case after case for like ten hours a day. Real academics are pike peds pathologists where you only have a few cases a day but they are importnat like trying to figure out neuroblastoma. And making the world beter for children.

 

[BrainPathology]

Dermoath just seems conducive to signing out a million cases a day. I haze heard that leboit is like a robot and signs out case after case after case for like ten hours a day. Real academics are pike peds pathologists where you only have a few cases a day but they are importnat like trying to figure out neuroblastoma. And making the world beter for children.

Where are you that it takes all day to figure out a few cases of neuroblastoma? And how does taking MORE time to get a diagnosis to children make the world better for them?

Scheithauer also practically flies through biopsies but I'd love to see you bait his german temper by implying that because he's fast he's not only not really acedemic but also less important than someone who takes entire days to figure out neuroblastomas.

 

[EtOHWithdrawal]

Dermoath just seems conducive to signing out a million cases a day. I haze heard that leboit is like a robot and signs out case after case after case for like ten hours a day. Real academics are pike peds pathologists where you only have a few cases a day but they are importnat like trying to figure out neuroblastoma. And making the world beter for children.

I can't even count the number of mistakes in this post.

 

[xanthines]

I can't even count the number of mistakes in this post.

Meh. I can't even count.

 

[pathgeek42]

It is possible to get it, but the chances are lower. Many people seem to get "competitive fellowships" from being an internal candidate. If you come from an outside institution without significant research publications, famous recommenders or connections (people willing to call on your behalf), then you are going to be in trouble. Pathology fellowships are not "competitive" fellowships, because that implies that everyone has a shot at it whether you are from that university or not. Reality is that residents are being promised these fellowships years in advance in order to entice them into residency. Fellowships (dermpath) also screen on publications much like residencies screened with step I scores (well, at least non-path residencies). Your best chance of landing a dermpath fellowship is to attend a program that has that fellowship. Look at the track records of the dermpath programs to see how "competitive" they are. As an aside, whatever happened to training pathologists to be pathologists? It seems like you have to be a researcher in order to get a competitive fellowship, which is exactly what private groups want. How many people from these fellowships (GI, GU, Derm) stay in academics? The money from private practice is too lucrative compared to academics.

 

[2121115]

As an aside, whatever happened to training pathologists to be pathologists? It seems like you have to be a researcher in order to get a competitive fellowship, which is exactly what private groups want. How many people from these fellowships (GI, GU, Derm) stay in academics?

Just for the record, it is next to impossible for an internal medicine resident to land a cardiology fellowship or gastroenterology fellowship without doing at least some sort of research activities in those specialties as well. To get a internal medicine GI fellowship you practically have to start applying during internship.