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okay, Dad.cool it with the uninformed editorializing
okay, Dad.cool it with the uninformed editorializing
Again, you don't know how these programs rank in each field, which ones are good versus malignant, and more importantly, what people actually wanted (as opposed to what they got). None of these lists are impressive or not, without knowing the individuals in the class and a lot more about the program hierarchy in every specialty than any premed could know. As a premed you cannot read these lists usefully.
So guys continue listing the match lists on here, but cool it with the uninformed editorializing like the above. That's what I'm trying to counter here -- to get premeds to understand that a list with lots of big names/specialties can often be a horrible list if (1) the places are malignant, (2) the programs happen to be bad in those particular specialties, or (3) the places were not what the person actually wanted. All you see is a lot of big names/specialties, which to you may seem impressive, but to the actual applicants, match day might not be so rosy. You just can't know, from your vantage point. You'll get my point in a few years.
Again, you don't know how these programs rank in each field, which ones are good versus malignant, and more importantly, what people actually wanted (as opposed to what they got). None of these lists are impressive or not, without knowing the individuals in the class and a lot more about the program hierarchy in every specialty than any premed could know. As a premed you cannot read these lists usefully.
So guys continue listing the match lists on here, but cool it with the uninformed editorializing like the above. That's what I'm trying to counter here -- to get premeds to understand that a list with lots of big names/specialties can often be a horrible list if (1) the places are malignant, (2) the programs happen to be bad in those particular specialties, or (3) the places were not what the person actually wanted. All you see is a lot of big names/specialties, which to you may seem impressive, but to the actual applicants, match day might not be so rosy. You just can't know, from your vantage point. You'll get my point in a few years.
Can you tell me some specialities at HMS affiliated hospitals that are "bad"? Also, some people desire "malignant" residencies because they enjoy being immersed in medicine to the maximum possible extent. I guess that's why people do IM at Hopkins or Gen Surg at Duke even though they're both known for being rough on residents.
To say you can get nothing out of a match list is a false statement. You can get a general picture of a class and what the school emphasizes. What you can't get is how great each individual person's match is. Fortunately, no one here ever argued that you could... except you.
EVERY hospital is good in some things, not good in others. I won't list specifics (because there are legal ramifications to calling out a specific program on a public board), but the answer is yes, there are specialties at top programs that you wouldn't put high you your list. You will find that the ranking of programs within each specialty does not jibe with the US News notion of what schools are best. The place with the best IM program may be pretty mediocre in OB, may be malignant in surgery, and so on. Your notion that this is affiliated with X school so it must be good is simply wrong. You will learn that later.
And no, people don't desire malignant programs. We aren't talking about being "immersed in medicine to the maximum possible extent", or simply being "rough on residents". We are talking about truly abusive situations. They are out there, and even at some very good places. People tend to avoid those. Residency is 3-7 years, with limited vacations and few weekends. If you are in a bad spot, it's not really something you want to suffer through. And as a premed, you don't know which they are. Even as a resident, you generally only know a few of the more notorious ones outside of your own specialty.
No, you cannot get an idea of what the school emphasizes. The individuals dictate what they are going into and where they are applying. In a given year, there may be a lot of interest in X, while in another year there is less interest in X and more in Y. This doesn't mean the program emphasizes it, it may simply mean that the folks they picked on admissions already had that leaning. It may mean that lots of folks that year had family situations that impacted the fields they chose. You are reading things into these lists that simply have no basis. You can't take something like this out of context and pretend you know the context. A school doesn't "emphasize things". It may have attendings who are more inspiring in some fields. But that cuts two ways, because you don't know if someone is going into a field because attendings are good or not going into fields because attendings are not good, or if people are simply going into things because that's always what they wanted, or because they have family influences, outside role models, or whatever.
And yes, it is important in determining whether a match list is good to know what people wanted, something you cannot know. If the typical class member ends up at an objectively very good place, you still won't know if he applied to tons of places in a different specialty, got no love, as well as this specialty, and maybe this was his 10th choice out of the 10 interviews he got. He may be bumming on match day. But you as an undergrad are saying, boy what a great match. Now, let's say half the class found themselves in that situation. The match list still looks great to you, but match day is a much more somber time, with lots of feigned smiles, followed by lots of folks posting on the general residency board asking how they void their match.
So as a premed, you really can't look at a list of names, without knowing what places are good versus malignant in each field (and again it is a very different hierarchy of best to worst in each field), and without knowing what folks actually wanted, and proclaim it a "really impressive list. no matter how you look at it". You just can't. you might be right, but you might also be far from right. As a premed you don't know. You can't know. And that's my point of why these lists don't help you. This is probably something you won't get for a few years. I know I foolishly looked at the lists when I was premed. But now having been through the match, I can tell you that what you see isn't what you think.
And no, people don't desire malignant programs. We aren't talking about being "immersed in medicine to the maximum possible extent", or simply being "rough on residents". We are talking about truly abusive situations. They are out there, and even at some very good places. People tend to avoid those. Residency is 3-7 years, with limited vacations and few weekends. If you are in a bad spot, it's not really something you want to suffer through. And as a premed, you don't know which they are. Even as a resident, you generally only know a few of the more notorious ones outside of your own specialty.
... I'm planning on reading House of God soon, which I hope gives me some perspective on it all.
We are talking about truly abusive situations....with limited vacations and few weekends. If you are in a bad spot, it's not really something you want to suffer through.
Well, I don't think the match process is a great one by any means. ... I'm saying on average these students appear to have gotten into strong residency programs. I think my assertion holds up fairly well at the higher end schools, but probably not so much outside of the top 20. Then, the whole GP in Nebraska thing really comes into play.
...
ApoK is just stating that places like Harvard are not bad at anything. They may not be the best place to train across every specialty, but they will certainly be near the top. ...
I know what he's stating. It's simply not accurate though. Every hospital system is good in some things and bad at others. Every system. I repeat, every system. Get it? You guys are in love with the US News ranking but it's meaningless when you get to the next stage. The best in a particular specialty is going to be the best whether it's affiliated with a good med school or not. The worst or most malignant is going to be bad or malignant whether it's affiliated with a top school or not. And you can have the best in one specialty and the worse in another specialty at the very same hospital. Happens a lot. There's always a range, everyplace. You will see lots of "great names" and if you don't know the hierarchy in a given specialty, you will assume "gee this must be good because X is not bad at anything". Wrong. You lose. Game over. Enjoy your malignant residency at the bottom of the barrel.
I know what he's stating. It's simply not accurate though. Every hospital system is good in some things and bad at others. Every system. I repeat, every system. Get it? You guys are in love with the US News ranking but it's meaningless when you get to the next stage. The best in a particular specialty is going to be the best whether it's affiliated with a good med school or not. The worst or most malignant is going to be bad or malignant whether it's affiliated with a top school or not. And you can have the best in one specialty and the worse in another specialty at the very same hospital. Happens a lot. There's always a range, everyplace. You will see lots of "great names" and if you don't know the hierarchy in a given specialty, you will assume "gee this must be good because X is not bad at anything". Wrong. You lose. Game over. Enjoy your malignant residency at the bottom of the barrel.
Again, you don't know how these programs rank in each field, which ones are good versus malignant, and more importantly, what people actually wanted (as opposed to what they got). None of these lists are impressive or not, without knowing the individuals in the class and a lot more about the program hierarchy in every specialty than any premed could know. As a premed you cannot read these lists usefully.
So guys continue listing the match lists on here, but cool it with the uninformed editorializing like the above. That's what I'm trying to counter here -- to get premeds to understand that a list with lots of big names/specialties can often be a horrible list if (1) the places are malignant, (2) the programs happen to be bad in those particular specialties, or (3) the places were not what the person actually wanted. All you see is a lot of big names/specialties, which to you may seem impressive, but to the actual applicants, match day might not be so rosy. You just can't know, from your vantage point. You'll get my point in a few years.
These lists also don't tell you how many had to scramble. There is a list up here for a class that had 40 go unmatched, and yet that is conveniently unmentioned.
I have friends who could match anything they want (numbers wise etc) and yet they are going for psych and and internal med. Some of them choosing to stay at an unranked state school for personal reasons (have kids/husband they don't want to move etc). Likewise my unranked school matched 3 into integrated plastics and 1 into integrated vascular which was totally unpredictable from previous lists. Match lists are fun when you're seeing where your friends have gone. Otherwise they are truly useless.
Can you tell me some specialities at HMS affiliated hospitals that are "bad"? Also, some people desire "malignant" residencies because they enjoy being immersed in medicine to the maximum possible extent. I guess that's why people do IM at Hopkins or Gen Surg at Duke even though they're both known for being rough on residents.
No really, welcome to life.
I wouldn't argue that point. Here's an interesting thread about it though - http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=7743783&postcount=1Fine, how about because they are masochists. People like this exist.
interesting indeedI wouldn't argue that point. Here's an interesting thread about it though - http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=7743783&postcount=1
Can someone shed some light on the significance of the "preliminary" match? Is it for people who didn't match directly into a program and this is kind of the equivalent of a post-bacc for residency placement in that it gives you one last chance to stand out? It seems like it's definitely less than a regular match as I'm seeing a lot of the "Surgery-Preliminary," especially in the lower-ranked schools.
Many programs require a prelim or transitional year. They're kind of a stereotypical "intern" year. Radiology, anesthesia (some of them), neurology, lots of the surgical subspecialties, etc require them. Generally you interview for both the prelim year and regular residency that you want. You then have to match into both of them.
Can someone shed some light on the significance of the "preliminary" match? Is it for people who didn't match directly into a program and this is kind of the equivalent of a post-bacc for residency placement in that it gives you one last chance to stand out? It seems like it's definitely less than a regular match as I'm seeing a lot of the "Surgery-Preliminary," especially in the lower-ranked schools.
But there are people included in there who simply didn't get anything, so they had to settle for a prelim spot in hopes that they'll get a categorical spot next year. It's an uphill battle though. Usually (at least in my school's match lists), it'll include the advanced program as well, so it'll say "Prelim surgery, followed by Radiology/Urology/Plastics/etc."Thanks! That cleared a lot of things up.
how was yours?how was your residency experience?