Post-Sophomore Fellowship - specific Qs

[Psychopathology]

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To my surprise, I'm sorta being drawn to pathology. I was not an undergraduate "science major" in a sense that everybody in my class seems to have dual degrees in physiology and molecular biology. I had also never worked in a lab until medical school. I'm probably not your typical path enthusiast, but it's one of only a couple of fields that I'm actually very excited about.

It's late in my second year and I've got to decide if and how I'm going to broaden my exposure to path. Very few recent graduates of my school have chosen pathology and our hospital doesn't offer a PSF. However, after reading through about half a dozen posts on this forum regarding some wonderful experiences at UCLA, UMASS, and SUNY Upstate, I've decided that a PSF is the way to go.


Questions that haven't been answered already:

What are the advantages and disadvantages of a program offering exclusive exposure to anatomical path or clinical path as opposed to a program offering combined exposure? (I guess I'm not sure why all programs don't offer exposure to both since many residents ultimately pursue dual AP/CP programs).

Does (or did) the fellowship work schedule preclude you from getting involved with research outside of the designated "elective" weeks?

In hindsight, what would you have wanted to know about each of the programs to which you were applying?

Lastly, can you recommend a particular fellowship that you or someone you know completed? (I've read posts regarding the aforementioned schools)

huge, huge thanks to anyone who contributes!

 

[yaah]

There are two categories of PSF - those that give you autonomy and basically treat you like a resident, and those that treat you as a glorified observer. Obviously, the latter is kind of a waste of a year. It might be ok for a month or so but after so long you start to spin your wheels, I would think.

You can always do research if you take the time and effort. I highly doubt any program would hinder this.

As for AP/CP only, some exposure to all parts is nice but a lot of CP sort of boils down to independent study at times.

As has been said before - if you know pathology is for you, there is very little point to do a PSF.

 

[AngryTesticle]

As has been said before - if you know pathology is for you, there is very little point to do a PSF.

Agreed. Plus, the PSF doesn't shave a year off residency like it did a few years ago. If you know you want to go into pathology, just do a couple rotations to get letters. Then just go through residency.

 

[beary]

I agree with what yaah and AT said, but if you are determined to go/stay at a particular program, doing a PSF there will greatly help you with the admissions process. For example, my home school (Iowa) greatly favors their PSF alums in the residency selection process.

 

[miko2005]

As has been said before - if you know pathology is for you, there is very little point to do a PSF.

I agree. If you are interested in doing research, I think it may be useful to do a year of research in a pathology department. That way you can get exposure to pathology and hopefully publications at the same time 🙂. You can apply for fellowships like Howard Hughes which allows you to do research at institution of your choice with financial support and will look great on resume.

 

[Psychopathology]

Thanks so much for your help!

I'm excited about the PSF because my research exposure is limited to short summer projects and my insight into the field of pathology is limited only to what I have read about. I'm looking for a solid opportunity to dive into this field, become involved with research, and see whether or not they are for me. I'm comforted by the fact that people who opted not to pursue pathology do not regret their decision to do a PSF.

My only concerns are financial, especially since the PSF no longer counts towards time in residency. I've noticed that some programs offer stipends that would let you get by without accruing much (if any) debt, whereas other programs don't offer much at all. If I could sort of break even financially, I would be very happy.

Again, thanks for giving me much to consider. I appreciate all of your insight!

 

[DarksideAllstar]

I am currently a fellow at the University of California, San Francisco. To sum it all up, towards the end of my third year I was undecided between pathology and radiology. I had a pretty good idea of what day-to-day radiology was like from spending so much time in the reading room during clinicals, but I had absolutely no clue what pathology was all about, and I wasn't certain that I would get the needed exposure to make an informed decision in 2 or 3 month-long electives, so I decided to do a fellowship. It has been extremely beneficial for a number of reasons, one of them being that it really soildified my interest in pathology. It also allowed me see what residency was going to be like (and in turn will help me a lot when i finally start). Would I have done this had I known that I wanted to do path? No way, I think its useful if you are unsure, particularly if you dont want to make a hasty decision based on a couple of electives. FInancially, my stipend was $1700/mo, which is meager in San Francisco, but my school kept me enrolled as a student, so I borrowed some extra for living expenses. Anyway, I tried to answer your questions below, good luck!

Questions that haven't been answered already:

What are the advantages and disadvantages of a program offering exclusive exposure to anatomical path or clinical path as opposed to a program offering combined exposure? (I guess I'm not sure why all programs don't offer exposure to both since many residents ultimately pursue dual AP/CP programs).

The program which I am in is an AP-only PSF. However, from talking with some of the residents who have done CP rotations at our hopsital, there is little for you to do during. I am sure that you could do CP rotations on your elective months if you want.

Does (or did) the fellowship work schedule preclude you from getting involved with research outside of the designated "elective" weeks?

Depends on the month. We have a few very busy surgical pathology months at the main hospital where you will be there until 7-8 pm most nights of the week, but there are some not-so-busy months that you could partake in a research project, although probably not basic science. I am currently working on a project now with some free time that I have.

In hindsight, what would you have wanted to know about each of the programs to which you were applying?

There was nothing that I was shocked about necessarily. I visited a couple of places that I was thinking about and got to meet faculty, check out the facilities, meet the residents, and ask a ton of questions, so I knew what I was getting into. Make sure to inquire about the call schedule, as well as vacation time. Determine how many elective months you will get, as well as how many months you will spend on the other services. For me, I wouldn't want to spend 6 months on autopsy service (hell I dont want to spend the 2 months I have to do).

Lastly, can you recommend a particular fellowship that you or someone you know completed? (I've read posts regarding the aforementioned schools)

The program I am in now can be pretty intense at times (you are doing the same amount of work as any of the residents), and I have learned a lot about pathology from seeing a lot of complex cases.

huge, huge thanks to anyone who contributes!

No problem. PM me with any questions.

 

[pathdoc68]

I think the best way to explore pathology as a student is to scrub out during surgery to observe frozens, do an elective in surg path and another one in blood bank during your third or early fourth year. Surgery, heme-onc rad, onc and radiology electives are also useful. Talk to residents, visit the lab, do a project with path staff, volunteer to observe autopsies, but a PSF???? I think a PSF would be a waste of a very precious year. You are still at an early phase in your education, you need to explore medicine through your third year rotations to make better informed career decisions. As a 4th year resident I can genuinely say I love path but I think very tough economic times are ahead for the field -- see other threads.

 

[Packamylase]

Does anyone know where I can find an all-inclusive list of post-sophomore fellowships in the country? The UCSF one seems to be really popular, but I don't know which other schools offer one. I am an upcoming 3rd year and plan on doing one (if I choose to) after my 3rd year. Thanks for the help!

 

[spz315]

Hey, I'm a third year and was previously interested in doing a PSF but in the end decided it wasn't for me. I'm not sure if I ever found an all inclusive list of schools that offer them but below are some of the programs that I took a look at. Might I suggest checking out the websites of schools near you or where you would like to train after med school. Or ask the head of pathology at your school.

Penn, Pitt, AE, Stanford, SLU, UCSF, UCLA, SUNY.

 

[Psychopathology]

http://www.pathologytraining.org/dir_search.asp

Site may not be updated so often, but you can use the scroll-down menu to search for post-sophomore fellowships by region. You should probably call specific programs of interest and ask them if they can support a student fellow or if they already have such a program in place.

Wow, this post is a refreshing walk down memory lane for me. The PSF is by no means necessary for matching at a stellar program, and it won't help you pay the bills any faster... but for some students, it's among the smartest decisions they'll ever make.

A couple of things to consider if you haven't already:

1. Location. A PSF year gives you an opportunity to audition pathology as a prospective career while providing a chance for you to experience life at a hospital, state, or part of the country that is much different from where you have spent the previous years. If you're not tied down geographically, then consider all of the possibilities.

2. Not all PSF programs are equal. Some give you mostly autopsy. Some will give you a little bit of everything. Some combine AP and CP, while many do not offer CP rotations to students. Some treat you like a first year resident while others let you hang around like a medical student. Some are essentially a research year, where you focus on a project and get to see a little pathology being practiced here and there. Others will have you grossing and or previewing cases every day, and independently presenting your work to attendings. Some will give you a broad exposure to all of surgical pathology, while other programs are highly specialized (i.e. you may see a lot of GI and lung but no breast or renal during your year). Some programs may work you into the ground, some programs do not offer you enough, and many others are reasonable and rewarding.

Good luck! I love this field.

 

[HbyHA]

Our program has been very AP heavy traditionally, but this year we offered some more CP options. part of the difficulty is our CP rotations are 3 month blocks, so they'd basically be an observer on the rotation which works better on some rotations than others. but if anyone wanted to check out a few CP rotations by splitting a month between a few CP areas, we'd try to honor that.

our Student Fellows are doing the following this year:
4 months Surg Path
3 Months electives (both have chosen 1-2 months of CP electives)
3 months research
1 month Adult autopsy
1 month Fetal autopsy

At my program, our SF's are treated as first year residents. I can't imagine yet ANOTHER year of being treated as a glorified observer...

if you know you're going into path, then don't waste a year. If you are unsure/trying to decide between path and another specialty, it makes sense to do. Pathology (and Rads too, i guess, maybe a couple others) is a very different field from what the average person has in mind when they decide to go to med school. better to do the year as a SF and find out it's not the field for you before you go through the whole matching process and then have to reapply for another specialty, etc, etc.

 

[Packamylase]

Hey, I'm a third year and was previously interested in doing a PSF but in the end decided it wasn't for me. I'm not sure if I ever found an all inclusive list of schools that offer them but below are some of the programs that I took a look at. Might I suggest checking out the websites of schools near you or where you would like to train after med school. Or ask the head of pathology at your school.

Penn, Pitt, AE, Stanford, SLU, UCSF, UCLA, SUNY.

Thank you. Some of my schoolmates have gone to UCSF the last two years and they loved it. I wouldn't mind going somewhere with a lower cost-of-living.

http://www.pathologytraining.org/dir_search.asp

Site may not be updated so often, but you can use the scroll-down menu to search for post-sophomore fellowships by region. You should probably call specific programs of interest and ask them if they can support a student fellow or if they already have such a program in place.

Wow, this post is a refreshing walk down memory lane for me. The PSF is by no means necessary for matching at a stellar program, and it won't help you pay the bills any faster... but for some students, it's among the smartest decisions they'll ever make.

A couple of things to consider if you haven't already:

1. Location. A PSF year gives you an opportunity to audition pathology as a prospective career while providing a chance for you to experience life at a hospital, state, or part of the country that is much different from where you have spent the previous years. If you're not tied down geographically, then consider all of the possibilities.

2. Not all PSF programs are equal. Some give you mostly autopsy. Some will give you a little bit of everything. Some combine AP and CP, while many do not offer CP rotations to students. Some treat you like a first year resident while others let you hang around like a medical student. Some are essentially a research year, where you focus on a project and get to see a little pathology being practiced here and there. Others will have you grossing and or previewing cases every day, and independently presenting your work to attendings. Some will give you a broad exposure to all of surgical pathology, while other programs are highly specialized (i.e. you may see a lot of GI and lung but no breast or renal during your year). Some programs may work you into the ground, some programs do not offer you enough, and many others are reasonable and rewarding.

Good luck! I love this field.

Thank you for the link. I will take a look. I am really interested in path, in fact, the more I consider it and I consider other specialties, Pathology seems the most attractive to me. But, I'm starting 3rd year rotations in a a couple of weeks, so we'll see how it works out.

I will consider all of the things that you had mentioned when looking at potential PSFs.

 

[Packamylase]

Our program has been very AP heavy traditionally, but this year we offered some more CP options. part of the difficulty is our CP rotations are 3 month blocks, so they'd basically be an observer on the rotation which works better on some rotations than others. but if anyone wanted to check out a few CP rotations by splitting a month between a few CP areas, we'd try to honor that.

our Student Fellows are doing the following this year:
4 months Surg Path
3 Months electives (both have chosen 1-2 months of CP electives)
3 months research
1 month Adult autopsy
1 month Fetal autopsy

At my program, our SF's are treated as first year residents. I can't imagine yet ANOTHER year of being treated as a glorified observer...

if you know you're going into path, then don't waste a year. If you are unsure/trying to decide between path and another specialty, it makes sense to do. Pathology (and Rads too, i guess, maybe a couple others) is a very different field from what the average person has in mind when they decide to go to med school. better to do the year as a SF and find out it's not the field for you before you go through the whole matching process and then have to reapply for another specialty, etc, etc.

It seems like a PSF would be a good choice for me. Do you mind telling me at which program you are? I would like a good mix of AP/CP a just a little autopsy too.

 

[Berg]

When I was first applying to the PSF, the adviser immediately told me that I shouldn't do it unless I wanted to do something competitive like Derm or I wanted to go to a top pathology program. My reason was that I was interested in path and knew that if I did it, it would give me a boost since I really had nothing to distinguish me from everyone else and wanted to go to a good program.

The program was great. I was treated just like a resident. I had 3 months of surg path, 2 heme, 1 autopsy, 1 micro, 1 research, 1 "laboratory techniques", 1 cytology, 1 blood bank, and 1 of cytogenetics. I was called on during the systemic pathology conferences as much as the residents. I often was called on during the general unknown conference. I presented during other conference. All I didn't do was take call. Otherwise, I was like a first year resident (except I got to do some rotations like cytology and cytogenetics that they aren't allowed to do). I was also given the chance to do industry work with one of the pathologists and went to Guatemala and Monterrey, Mexico with him.

By the end, I was happy I did it. It was hard in that it did take a year out of my life. Right now, I'm just starting 3rd year so I think about it a lot when I go to dinner with my friends and they are about to send out residency applications. But really, the year went so fast that it felt like no time at all. I learned much more than I did as a 2nd year and now have something to distinguish me from many other applicants. It is certainly not for everyone and took a lot of time for me to decide on. We'll see in about 21 months when I match if it was worth it. 🙂