Postdoctoral Research Salary?

[Thaitanium]

I am looking to do research one year and I was wondering what the market salary is for someone with a MD or MD/MS? I was told a fellow in the department I would be working in is making the same salary, $XX,XXX, which is low. I don't want to be busting my hump when, at the same time, I can be working as a research tech for more. I also don't want to be used as cheap labor!

I know PhD postdocs make little after graduation (I have heard of 28K and 32K/year). Does the same hold true for MDs in research?

Thanks for any info.

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[sleeping beauty]

about 6 or 7 years ago, NIH had a plan for postdoc salary. NIH target would be first year $45k and 5th year $63k by 2006 and no postdco is allowed to hold the title for more than 5 years.

however because of tight budget of NIH, postdoc's salary seesm to remain the same level since 2004. in Feb or March every year, NIH updates the salary level. here is the link. 1st year $37k in 2007

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cach...tml+NRSA+salary+2007&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

please note that many schools have their own policies, with salary levels lower than NIH standard.

 

[pathomatic]

about 6 or 7 years ago, NIH had a plan for postdoc salary. NIH target would be first year $45k and 5th year $63k by 2006 and no postdco is allowed to hold the title for more than 5 years.

however because of tight budget of NIH, postdoc's salary seesm to remain the same level since 2004. in Feb or March every year, NIH updates the salary level. here is the link. 1st year $37k in 2007

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cach...tml+NRSA+salary+2007&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

please note that many schools have their own policies, with salary levels lower than NIH standard.

spot on. Also, if you want to get into a competitive lab, be prepared to take a significant paycut. Most university labs would pay you significantly less than 45K, also, if its your first post doctoral stint, i would imagine it would be more in the range of 30-35, sometimes 40K, depending on how badly the PI wants you. Don't forget, applying for a post-doc position is like applying for anything else, there is no fixed salary, and sometimes, its entirely upto the discretion of your hiring PI. Good publications, good technical skills and good recommendations from you phd advisor or anyone else would usually land you a good position (its slightly tougher these days though because of the NIH funding crunch). By the way, industry post-doc fellowships pay you more than academic ones.

 

[pathomatic]

I know PhD postdocs make little after graduation (I have heard of 28K and 32K/year). Does the same hold true for MDs in research?

.

Well, the playing fields are levelled in research (doesnt matter if you are MD or PhD) cause eventually you are going to be doing research and believe me, for most parts, your MD training doesnt contribute much in terms of research, maybe for translational projects but then most of the translational projects seem to be short term anyways. So, the answer is NO, there is no difference in the post-doctoral salary between MDs and PhDs. Personally, If I had a lab, I would rather hire a PhD with significant lab experience than a fresh MD with sporadic lab experience and some research projects.

 

[Thaitanium]

Thanks guys for the help.

 

[1Path]

So, the answer is NO, there is no difference in the post-doctoral salary between MDs and PhDs. .

This may be true for these folks, but I haven't seen this be the case for MD/PhD's or MD/MS folks.

 

[pathomatic]

This may be true for these folks, but I haven't seen this be the case for MD/PhD's or MD/MS folks.

Doesnt matter if you are MD/PhD or MD/MS. now its different if you are a stellar MD/PhD (which is technically equivalent to a stellar Md or Phd). Maybe the ones you have acquainted with, fall in that category. But for the most part, Post-doc is not a job, technically you are still "in training" and you get paid as a trainee. It doesnt make sense, because you would expect MD.PhD to be paid more than MD or PhD. But thats how it is. Look at it this way, would you expect to be paid more for your residency or fellowship if you have a PhD with your MD. Definitely not, and from what I gather from the forum, MD.PhDs definitely dont earn more than MDs in a regular job (after training) either.

And what about MD.PhDs who go full time into research in academics (as faculty without any clinical/signout responsiblities) I bet they get paid the same as PhDs and I bet they are dependent on NIH money for bulk of their salary like every other researcher. Now, Is it slighly easier to get funding from NIH if you have an MD, Definitely yes.

 

[sleeping beauty]

This may be true for these folks, but I haven't seen this be the case for MD/PhD's or MD/MS folks.

if you get NIH training grants (usually from training programs of your school=in house) or fellowships from outside sources, your salary could be higher or much higher either because your boss increases your salary(because you get money) or because the fellowship provides higher salary.

MDs might have some advantage in getting fellowship in translational research. if you think MD/PhD's or MD/MS will /should get more (unless you get fellowship), it will not become a reality. many PIs do not hire MDs unless s/he gets her/his own money.

 

[1Path]

Doesnt matter if you are MD/PhD or MD/MS. now its different if you are a stellar MD/PhD (which is technically equivalent to a stellar Md or Phd). Maybe the ones you have acquainted with, fall in that category. But for the most part, Post-doc is not a job, technically you are still "in training" and you get paid as a trainee. It doesnt make sense, because you would expect MD.PhD to be paid more than MD or PhD. But thats how it is. Look at it this way, would you expect to be paid more for your residency or fellowship if you have a PhD with your MD. Definitely not, and from what I gather from the forum, MD.PhDs definitely dont earn more than MDs in a regular job (after training) either.

Yes, I absolutely expect to be paid more for my residency and especially fellowship when I step to the table with advanced training and research experience. ABSOLUTELY!

I'm NOT giving anecdotal evidence here. I'm speaking for the experience of close friends WITH MD/PhD's who I know for sure make more than the PhD's only (who appear to be at the bottom of the pay scale) and MD's too. And no I wouldn't necessarily say these folks were stellar, but they had substantial research experience which means they deserved a higher salary.

A couple things should be mentioned about the NIH pay scale which I'm also familiar with because of my OWN expereince there as a CRTA fellow. IF you come to the table with research experience you WILL get paid more IF you're willing/able to negotiate a higher salary. Not only that, they have something that I believe is called Speciality preference, where if you have an MS or higher in a desired field you can get more money.

IMHO, ANYONE who has sweat the blood and tears required to earn either the MD/PhD or the MD/MS and isn't willing to negotiate a higher salary, is crazy. That job will ultimately benefit from your training so why give it away for free??? It may be a "training" position, but what does that have to do with anything?

 

[pathomatic]

Yes, I absolutely expect to be paid more for my residency and especially fellowship when I step to the table with advanced training and research experience. ABSOLUTELY!

well, nobody wants it more than me cause I am an MD PhD myself, but, I sure hope, for your sake, that you know that you dont get paid more in residency or fellowship if you are MdPhD!!! I thought that was a very well known fact. and its definitely not negotiable

A couple things should be mentioned about the NIH pay scale which I'm also familiar with because of my OWN expereince there as a CRTA fellow. IF you come to the table with research experience you WILL get paid more IF you're willing/able to negotiate a higher salary. Not only that, they have something that I believe is called Speciality preference, where if you have an MS or higher in a desired field you can get more money.

IMHO, ANYONE who has sweat the blood and tears required to earn either the MD/PhD or the MD/MS and isn't willing to negotiate a higher salary, is crazy. That job will ultimately benefit from your training so why give it away for free??? It may be a "training" position, but what does that have to do with anything?

You are right about the NIH thing, they pay you according to your qualifications and actually according years of post-graduate education (very good increment every year!!), but unfortunately, most universities dont follow NIH guidelines (they are just guidelines and are not written in stone). So, as I said before, you can negotiate all you want, but eventually, if are really really interested in a lab (which might be a competitive lab to get into) and the PI is receiving hundreds of applications, you are kind of weak on the negotiating table (irrespective of whether you have MD, pHd , MS). I know this for a fact being acquainted with people with publication in Nature, science etc during grad school, who had to take significant paycuts to join the lab of their interest in the boston area.

 

[djmd]

well, nobody wants it more than me cause I am an MD PhD myself, but, I sure hope, for your sake, that you know that you dont get paid more in residency or fellowship if you are MdPhD!!! I thought that was a very well known fact. and its definitely not negotiable

Something needs to be cleared up here. What are we talking about?
NIH post medical school residency?
Residency/Fellowship in general?
Doing research work straight out of medical school?
Or Post Residency/fellowship research?


Because I think people are mixing up topics.
But I will agree with what pathomatic said above. Residency/fellowship is NON-negotiable. You are PGYI and PGYI makes the same thing across ALL residencies in any institution. Some departments may have books funds or some other compensation, but those are with in the department and are generally non-negotiable and applied equally to all residents.

Think the NIH has been discussed above, and I'm not quite sure why someone would do #3. #4 of course is negotiable and can be based on experience and training and anything else the person offering you the position wants it to be (unless it can't like some government setting where you are given a 'rank' and pay scale).

 

[1Path]

well, nobody wants it more than me cause I am an MD PhD myself, but, I sure hope, for your sake, that you know that you dont get paid more in residency or fellowship if you are MdPhD!!! I thought that was a very well known fact. and its definitely not negotiable.

Believe what you like. It does NOT work this way EVERYWHERE epsecially in fellowships.

You are right about the NIH thing, they pay you according to your qualifications and actually according years of post-graduate education (very good increment every year!!), but unfortunately, most universities dont follow NIH guidelines (they are just guidelines and are not written in stone). So, as I said before, you can negotiate all you want, but eventually, if are really really interested in a lab (which might be a competitive lab to get into) and the PI is receiving hundreds of applications, you are kind of weak on the negotiating table (irrespective of whether you have MD, pHd , MS). I know this for a fact being acquainted with people with publication in Nature, science etc during grad school, who had to take significant paycuts to join the lab of their interest in the boston area.

I think we all know academia doesn't follow NIH guidlines, which is why I have a clear and present preference for the NIH based on a LOT of factors.

However, don't tell me that you can't negotiate a post doc, pre doc, or any other kinda doc in academia because I KNOW that's not true. As a matter of fact, I negotiated my stipend in the academic setting I currently work in. I KNOW my worth and I aint' too scared to negotiate.

The ONLY folks I know who are taking substantial pay cuts are those who: 1) either devalue their own worth in these settings or 2) are so desperate to work with a nobel laureate that they'll settle for anything or 3) ain't all that good 4) weak

Now if any one wants to know why research in this country sucks so bad, take a look at this thread and all the folks who seem so willing to substantially devalue their worth just to get a gig with a big wig!

 

[pathomatic]

Believe what you like. It does NOT work this way EVERYWHERE epsecially in fellowships.

I think we all know academia doesn't follow NIH guidlines, which is why I have a clear and present preference for the NIH based on a LOT of factors.

However, don't tell me that you can't negotiate a post doc, pre doc, or any other kinda doc in academia because I KNOW that's not true. As a matter of fact, I negotiated my stipend in the academic setting I currently work in. I KNOW my worth and I aint' too scared to negotiate.

The ONLY folks I know who are taking substantial pay cuts are those who: 1) either devalue their own worth in these settings or 2) are so desperate to work with a nobel laureate that they'll settle for anything or 3) ain't all that good 4) weak

Now if any one wants to know why research in this country sucks so bad, take a look at this thread and all the folks who seem so willing to substantially devalue their worth just to get a gig with a big wig!

I admire your courage and negotiating skills, and I wish you luck in negotiating your residency and fellowship stipends.

for the rest of us mortals, the stipends are going to be set by the university (PGY1) and we have to follow it.

I am out of this thread, sayonara

 

[djmd]

However, don't tell me that you can't negotiate a post doc, pre doc, or any other kinda doc in academia because I KNOW that's not true. As a matter of fact, I negotiated my stipend in the academic setting I currently work in. I KNOW my worth and I aint' too scared to negotiate.

Listen. RESIDENT SALARIES are NOT negotiable.

 

[Gut Shot]

Listen. RESIDENT SALARIES are NOT negotiable.

I have known two graduate students who negotiated slightly higher stipends. Never heard of a post-doc even trying. Resident salaries are definitely non-negotiable. Perhaps the NIH constitutes some sort of Bizarro World where the normal rules of GME compensation do not necessarily apply.

 

[docbiohazard]

Now if any one wants to know why research in this country sucks so bad, take a look at this thread and all the folks who seem so willing to substantially devalue their worth just to get a gig with a big wig!

Just out of curiosity, how exactly is it that research in this country "sucks so bad"? Compared to where? "Sucks" how? For the workers? In terms of quality of product? I'm curious.

Furthermore, how is this correlated with people devaluing their "worth" to work with "big names" in a given field?

Just curious...
BH

 

[1Path]

Perhaps the NIH constitutes some sort of Bizarro World where the normal rules of GME compensation do not necessarily apply.

Ya think? I'm speaking of the Gov't resident situation ONLY!!!!!!

Listen. RESIDENT SALARIES are NOT negotiable.

I'm curious, is residency going to be or already is your first "real" job?

Just out of curiosity, how exactly is it that research in this country "sucks so bad"? Compared to where? "Sucks" how? For the workers? In terms of quality of product? I'm curious.

Furthermore, how is this correlated with people devaluing their "worth" to work with "big names" in a given field?

Ask someone you know with a graduate degree with time to spare. This list of "problems" is too long to explain in this thread.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

From the NIH AP website:

Residents receive appointments as Clinical Fellows (Civil Service). Clinical associates receive a starting salary of $51,782 per year for residents entering the program in July 2007. Additional compensation is provided for a post-baccalaureate degree (PhD) or for residents beyond the PGY1 year. A supplement of approximately $3400 is provided for on-call activities.

While it mentions that one may receive additional compensation, I don't see anywhere where it specifically states that it is negotiable. I'm sure they give everyone with a PhD the same type of "additional compensation", not necessarily commensurate with your degree of experience or your ability to negotiate a contract.

As a rule--GutShot and djmd are correct-- resident salaries are non-negotiable. You essentially agree to the salary they tell you about at the interview when you match to your program, as it is a binding contract. There was a lawsuit against the NRMP by a couple of residents stating that the match took away their ability to bargain. It eventually was dismissed by the courts.

 

[Gut Shot]

Ya think? I'm speaking of the Gov't resident situation ONLY!!!!!!

Thank you for finally clarifiying that.

EDIT: Although I'm therefore still somewhat confused by this statement:

"Believe what you like. It does NOT work this way EVERYWHERE epsecially in fellowships."

I'm curious, is residency going to be or already is your first "real" job?

I'm curious, how many residency programs have you been a part of?

 

[DarksideAllstar]

I'm curious, is residency going to be or already is your first "real" job?

Why is this your argument for everything? I'd say that more than 50% of med school classes are made up of non-traditional students, some with experience in various other professional fields (MBAs, CPAs, lawyers, etc). This type of stuff really detracts from any type of argument you are trying to make. It doesn't make you all-knowing because you've worked a "real job" for the past 17 years, it just makes you seem childish.

 

[Gut Shot]

it just makes you seem childish.

That and the excessive use of caps. When I read her posts I feel like I'm getting erratically yelled at.

 

[djmd]

Ya think? I'm speaking of the Gov't resident situation ONLY!!!!!!
I'm curious, is residency going to be or already is your first "real" job? Ask someone you know with a graduate degree with time to spare. This list of "problems" is too long to explain in this thread.

Ok listen up Mrs Marine daughter, doctor to be.
You know JACK about anyone else here, and what you know about residency and real life could fill a paper cup.

I don't know what your experience is nor what you think it is that has given you such overwhelming insight, but you best realize that there are people out there who do KNOW MORE THAN YOU.

I specifically made a point before about qualifying what people were talking about and then directed my points about residencies NOT at the NIH.

Oh and to educate you, no my residency nor my fellowship were my first real job. For my first 'real' job I guess you would have to go back about 14 years. You shavetail. I guess I should prob say future shavetail, because you aren't even that yet.


And with that I am done with this thread. I should have joined pathomatic. Foolish me to try and educate.

 

[docbiohazard]

Ask someone you know with a graduate degree with time to spare. This list of "problems" is too long to explain in this thread.

A person I know with a graduate degree? Mmmm lets see - oh, yes, I almost forgot, I have a PhD in the biological sciences, thats why I asked the question.

For someone who is apparently in the first year of her combined degree program, regardless of whatever previous experience you have, I'd humbly suggest dialing it back a little. The MD/PhD isn't a sprint, it's a marathon, probably an ultramarathon, and you're going to need a lot of that energy to get you over a lot of hurdles in the years to come. You should realize that medicine and research both are pretty hierarchical fields, and running around belittling your elders and superiors like an angry child isn't going to serve you well in the long term. The people on this forum could very well be the residents / attendings interviewing you for residency / employment down the road.

BH

 

[DarksideAllstar]

A person I know with a graduate degree? Mmmm lets see - oh, yes, I almost forgot, I have a PhD in the biological sciences, thats why I asked the question.

For someone who is apparently in the first year of her combined degree program, regardless of whatever previous experience you have, I'd humbly suggest dialing it back a little. The MD/PhD isn't a sprint, it's a marathon, probably an ultramarathon, and you're going to need a lot of that energy to get you over a lot of hurdles in the years to come. You should realize that medicine and research both are pretty hierarchical fields, and running around belittling your elders and superiors like an angry child isn't going to serve you well in the long term. The people on this forum could very well be the residents / attendings interviewing you for residency / employment down the road.

BH

I do not think that she has been accepted to medical school.

 

[docbiohazard]

I do not think that she has been accepted to medical school.

Although removed in her latest posts, her previous posts always had a signature that said 0.5 years towards her MD/PhD goal. I always took this to mean she was an overzealous first year MD/PhD, but I suppose she could just as easily be a 7th grader on the road to her "MD/PhD goal"... it would certainly explain a lot.

BH

 

[1Path]

You should realize that medicine and research both are pretty hierarchical fields, and running around belittling your elders and superiors like an angry child isn't going to serve you well in the long term. The people on this forum could very well be the residents / attendings interviewing you for residency / employment down the road.
BH

Belittling my elders? Are u fkucing kidding me? Respect is EARNED, not awarded with your MD and/or MD/PhD.

Newflash. I'm going into medicine to address health disparities in cancer incidence and mortality particularily breast cancer in minority populations, so I'm no more worried about coming into contact with too people on here than I am about running into a green polka dotted zebra.

Love,
the daughter of a Marine, wife of a former Naval Commander/Frogman

PS- I think this thread needs an enema

 

[docbiohazard]

Belittling my elders? Are u fkucing kidding me? Respect is EARNED, not awarded with your MD and/or MD/PhD.

You can have this attitude, but again, I think you'll find disrespecting people around you - people whom you don't even know - is going to come back to haunt you. Call it what you want, but there's something to be said for courtesy, tact, professionalism, etc.

I also find it curious that someone with an expressed interest in military service would have this attitude, since it seems like the military is an environment where quite a bit of respect is given out based upon rank and chain of command.

Newflash. I'm going into medicine to address health disparities in cancer incidence and mortality particularily breast cancer in minority populations, so I'm no more worried about coming into contact with too people on here than I am about running into a green polka dotted zebra.

If you're interested in this type of research, why are you preoccupied with getting a PhD when it seems like your needs would be just as easily suited with an MPH degree? An MPH would be shorter, more cost effective and better suited to your interests from the sound of it.

You're obviously unconcerned about running into anyone from this board, but if you're planning on doing a pathology residency, and the people posting (and reading/lurking) here are primarily pathology residents and pathologists, it would logically follow you have the potential to run into any of us in a potential employment / professional situation in the future. Just some food for thought.

BH

 

[1Path]

You can have this attitude, but again, I think you'll find disrespecting people around you - people whom you don't even know - is going to come back to haunt you. Call it what you want, but there's something to be said for courtesy, tact, professionalism, etc.

I absolutely agree. By these things don't just apply to those in the MD/PhD pipeline, a fact you seem unwilling to address with your collegues.

An MPH would be shorter, more cost effective and better suited to your interests from the sound of it.

I have about 12 credits toward my MPH and I'm not sure at this stage when/if I'm going to finish it. That would be in Cancer Epi in case you were curious. IMHO, anyone who plans to go into academia would be VERY well served by the MD/PhD but I'm sure you knew already knew that.

As for shorter and cost effective, I'm not interested in any short cuts (otherwsie why MD/PhD) and I'm not worried about cost. Material "needs" have been quite well addressed at this stage of my life, now's the time to pursue alturistc goals. And trust me, I realize this places me in the company many of the folks who are Mega nontrads, not like those who commonly pursue/attend med school these days.

Now, I wouldn't call the PhD a preoccupation (other wise I'd have to finish it before reapplying to med school) it more like a work in progress. And before you jump to conclusions, that reapp is AFTER an acceptance since I figured 7 years ago that it would be pretty difficult to care for someone who's terminally ill, have a family, and martriculate MD/PhD.

You're obviously unconcerned about running into anyone from this board, but if you're planning on doing a pathology residency, and the people posting (and reading/lurking) here are primarily pathology residents and pathologists, it would logically follow you have the potential to run into any of us in a potential employment / professional situation in the future. Just some food for thought.BH

Situations like this are the MAIN reason why it good to know a good lawyer.

Now dudes, what's up with the name calling/labelling? Can't get a person to cower to your opinion, so you call them a name/labelling? Now that's mature.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

Newflash. I'm going into medicine to address health disparities in cancer incidence and mortality particularily breast cancer in minority populations, so I'm no more worried about coming into contact with too people on here than I am about running into a green polka dotted zebra.

You're right there really isn't a need to worry-- at the rate that you're obtaining your degrees, many of us will be retired by the time you get around to apply for path residency (assuming you are accepted to med school, of course).

Shouldn't you be trolling in pre-allo?

 

[yaah]

Don't make me close this thread, kids.

Audrey: Rusty is licking his hand and touching me with it!
Ellen: Tell Rusty to behave himself.
Clark: Rusty, behave yourself!
Rusty: But Audrey is eating candy and smiling at me with her mouth open!
Ellen: Audrey, eat with you mouth closed!
Clark: No eating in the car, kids!
Rusty: You suck, you know that?
Audrey: ******!
Clark: I am trying to concentrate on the road!

 

[djmd]

I'm curious, is residency going to be or already is your first "real" job?

Now dudes, what's up with the name calling/labelling? Can't get a person to cower to your opinion, so you call them a name/labelling?

Actually you started it with the vague claims of lack of knowledge.

As Biohazard pointed out, do not claim respect must be earned and then expect it yourself, if you have not earned it. I switched tactics as you clearly were ignoring the less direct method.

If my use of titles to address you seem incorrect feel free to say so, however they are all accurate, and you wear them like a badge.
You presume that everyone knows less about this topic, then why bother discussing it. You are clearly so certain about resident salaries that you don't need to hear from residents and former residents, the so be it.
You want to claim that people have less experience than you, because we don't have it advertised in our signature? Whatever.


There are people here in academic pathology, so news flash you will likely run into them. Or are you going to do research in cancer and not get any information regarding the stage of the cancers?


You are in a pathology residents forum, as a what, pre-med?
It is fantastically short sighted to presume anything about anyone here, and yet you choose to do it.

You have demonstrated that I do not want to be treated with respect, as you didn't feel the need to treat anyone else with it. You don't think that people with MDs and residencies might have more information about residencies? Ok, not sure how bringing up your father and husband is supposed to make us feel like you have more information about anything we are discussing.

 

[1Path]

Audrey: Rusty is licking his hand and touching me with it!
Ellen: Tell Rusty to behave himself.
Clark: Rusty, behave yourself!
Rusty: But Audrey is eating candy and smiling at me with her mouth open!
Ellen: Audrey, eat with you mouth closed!
Clark: No eating in the car, kids!
Rusty: You suck, you know that?
Audrey: ******!
Clark: I am trying to concentrate on the road!

THIS is why I LOVE pathologists. Such a since of humor!

 

[1Path]

at the rate that you're obtaining your degrees, many of us will be retired by the time you get around to apply for path residency (assuming you are accepted to med school, of course).

Then I guess it's a good thing I don't have to go to med school to get the 401K, fancy vacations, homes and the Benzo!!!!

So for clarification purposes, the name will be:
1Path, MD, PhD, MS, MPH for a grand total of 6 college degress (2 bachelor's too ) Yeah I admit it, Ima degree collector.

Here's some advice. Don't hate the player boo, hate the guy who has to print my business cards!

 

[DarksideAllstar]

1Path, MD, PhD

A bit premature, no?

This thread should be shut the f*ck down.

 

[sequela]

Then I guess it's a good thing I don't have to go to med school to get the 401K, fancy vacations, homes and the Benzo!!!!

So for clarification purposes, the name will be:
1Path, MD, PhD, MS, MPH for a grand total of 6 college degress (2 bachelor's too ) Yeah I admit it, Ima degree collector.

Here's some advice. Don't hate the player boo, hate the guy who has to print my business cards!

are you for real? get back onto pre-allo. you can join us if and when you truly have something to offer.


yaah....you should close this thread, it is of zero value.

 

[1Path]

are you for real? get back onto pre-allo. you can join us if and when you truly have something to offer.

I've been posting in THIS forum for YEARS. Besides I don't think many people in pre-allo could engage me in a discussion about the complexities of a Dx of ADH versus DCIS although I could be wrong. Then again, can you?

 

[yaah]

Closing.

This is why we can't have nice things.