Postdoctoral training application process

[4410]

When do most predoctoral interns begin the application process for postdoctoral training? Is there a similar match through APPIC for postdoctoral training? Where I live now in Texas it seems that there are many postdoctoral training opportunities that are advertised and they are often unfilled. It is my hope to complete my predoctoral internship beginning in August and then return to where I live to do my postdoctoral training so I may gain licensure or provisional licensure in Texas.

It seems that most students obtain their postdoctoral year of training at an employment site that is not a designated postdoctoral training program. Essentially, they obtain employment with an agency or an independent practice and they make $50,000 or more that year and they then continue working with the agency once they are licensed. Some leave and open up their own independent practice or are associated with a partnership after they become fully licensed to practice psychology, but it seems that most work for the agency they did their postdoctoral year of training.

People that I have talked to have indicated that we are not required to participate in the postdoctoral Match through APPIC and also that most of these postdoctoral training programs pay $40,000 or less. So, it is more preferred to search and find your own postdoctoral training site at a higher salary.

What seem unusual from my perspective, having recently completed the predoctoral internship APPIC Match, is that the postdoctoral training does not seem to have the same associated stress level and shortage of available sites as the predoctoral training application process. It actually seems that there are a surplus of postdoctoral training sites and many do not get filled every year. Since there were some 1000 or more students who did not Match with a site during phase I or phase II does this somehow generalize to a surplus of postdoctoral internship sites being unfilled every year? If all of the predoctoral interns had matched this year, there would be a 1000 or more predoctoral interns finishing up their degree and applying for postdoctoral training next year so there could be a shortage of postdoctoral internship sites if there were actually enough predoctoral internship sites for every student to match each year.

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[AcronymAllergy]

The process is not nearly as "centralized" as the internship application process, and there are no formal matches administered by APPIC, no. The closest thing is the neuropsych postdoc match, which is administered by National Matching Service on behalf of APPCN. People usually start at least thinking about postdoc within a month of beginning internship. Most sites' due dates (for those with official due dates) are in Dec/early Jan (neuro match) or February (uniform notification date).

In general, there are formal and informal postdocs. Formal postdocs tend to most often be affiliated with a hospital of some sort (VA, academic, community mental health) or university clinic. The pay is generally fixed/non-negotiable (or at least less-so than informal sites), and the overall experience is a bit more structured in terms of # of hours of supervision, didactics, etc.

With informal postdocs, a lot of the burden falls on you in terms of making sure the site will meet your state's supervision requirements. If it's located in a private practice, the didactic opportunities may be limited, and you may be required to develop your own patient base. It's all going to depend on what site you sign on with, and what your contract stipulates.

There are two formal match dates: the APPCN match date, which (like APPIC), results in a computer match and binding contract with the site if you do match; and the APPIC uniform notification date (think the equivalent of the April 15th deadline for grad school admissions). In both cases, it's possible to accept offers at sites that don't participate in/adhere to match policies or timelines. There are also postdocs (informal and formal) that offer "rolling admissions," with phrases equivalent to, "we will begin conducting our search immediately, and will continue looking until the right candidate is found and the position is filled." These types of spots can open up at any point throughout the year.

As for any imbalance: I would imagine that the number of informal postdocs is greater than the number of people willing to fill them, perhaps owing to an unfavorable contract, undesirable location, etc. These types of positions, to the best of my knowledge, are also a bit less-expensive to develop, so the resource strain isn't as great on the site.

There is technically a shortage of neuropsych postdocs (I believe ~60% of applicants matched this year), although the lower match rates are likely confounded by a few factors. One such factor, from what I've heard and seen, is the presence of a decent number of people who decide late in their training (e.g., after beginning internship) that they want to go the neuro route, and are thus significantly less-qualified than those who sought out appropriate training earlier.

Finally, regarding pay, it's going to vary widely. Prisons and the VA typically pay decently ($40k+), while academic medical centers tend to pay less for formal postdocs (~mid-$30's). I believe counseling centers and community mental health are some of the lowest, falling in the high-$20's to mid-to-low-$30's. Private practices are all over the board, and may be extremely dependent on the patient load you establish.

 

[4410]

Thanks, I was not aware of the neuropsychology match through NMS for APPCN. My interest is pediatric neuropsychology and there were limited predoctoral sites. I did match with a site that has a minor focus on pediatric neuropsychology in a rotation at a school setting. In my clinical psychology training I completed a year long practicum with a neuropsychologist and I took five courses in neuropsychology in a different PhD program in school psychology for additional courses and training. Most of the neuropsychologist that I have consulted with have indicated that with my coursework in neuropsychology and practicum experiences that I should have a reasonably good chance to acquire a postdoctoral placement in pediatric neuropsychology. The predoctoral internship is set up by APA as being a generalist internship with different rotations and little specialization, whereas the postdoctoral internships/fellowship allows for a higher degree of specialization. Apparently, the licensure board for psychologists requires documentation that our predoctoral internship was broad based and covers many areas of training, but once we are provisionally licensed by the psychology board specialization is encouraged. I would have rather had a doctoral degree in neuropsychology, a predoctoral internship in neuropsychology, and to primarily work in neuropsychology, but due to APA emphasis on clinical psychology doctoral training being broad based, it makes it much more difficult to acquire the necessary neuropsychology training in a clinical psychology program. Many school psychology program, on the other hand, allow doctoral students to specialize in neuropsychology.

 

[erg923]

Most npsych post-docs (and most post-docs in general, actually) will require an APA approved program AND/OR a APA accredited predoc internship. My understanding from your previous posts is that you have neither.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Thanks, I was not aware of the neuropsychology match through NMS for APPCN. My interest is pediatric neuropsychology and there were limited predoctoral sites. I did match with a site that has a minor focus on pediatric neuropsychology in a rotation at a school setting. In my clinical psychology training I completed a year long practicum with a neuropsychologist and I took five courses in neuropsychology in a different PhD program in school psychology for additional courses and training. Most of the neuropsychologist that I have consulted with have indicated that with my coursework in neuropsychology and practicum experiences that I should have a reasonably good chance to acquire a postdoctoral placement in pediatric neuropsychology. The predoctoral internship is set up by APA as being a generalist internship with different rotations and little specialization, whereas the postdoctoral internships/fellowship allows for a higher degree of specialization. Apparently, the licensure board for psychologists requires documentation that our predoctoral internship was broad based and covers many areas of training, but once we are provisionally licensed by the psychology board specialization is encouraged. I would have rather had a doctoral degree in neuropsychology, a predoctoral internship in neuropsychology, and to primarily work in neuropsychology, but due to APA emphasis on clinical psychology doctoral training being broad based, it makes it much more difficult to acquire the necessary neuropsychology training in a clinical psychology program. Many school psychology program, on the other hand, allow doctoral students to specialize in neuropsychology.

One should most definitely acquire a broad training in clinical psychology before (or while) acquiring more-focused instruction in neuropsychology. The rub is that there's a LOT to know in neuro on top of general clinical psychological principles, and so if a person decides rather late in the game that it's what he/she wants to do, they're going to be having to scramble quite a bit to make up ground. I personally don't know that I like the idea of programs offering explicit neuropsychology tracks at the doctor level; I think it is somewhat of a disservice, as it can foster/implicitly encourage the mindset of, "I'm a neuropsychologist, I don't need to pay as much attention to this other clinical psych stuff."

Internship should also afford generalized experiences, particularly if there's anything you've missed out on during grad school. My site, for example, allows me to take over 50% neuro-related rotations if I'd like, but I'm opting for close to a 50/50 split to shore up my training in other areas. I got a good bit of both clinical psych and neuropsych training at the doctoral level, but it required me to take on extra responsibilities each year that some other students didn't necessarily have to complete. In essence, I don't feel the neuro training should occur at the significant expense of clinical psych fundamentals.

As for school programs offering neuro specialties: just because some programs do doesn't mean they should. Remember, there are school-related specialties at the master's level that are trying to brand themselves neuropsychologists. It's going to vary program-by-program, but I don't know that all the programs (school or otherwise) offering "neuropsychology" training are really providing the level of instruction that is required to produce competent, well-rounded clinicans.

Edit: And as erg mentioned, yes, APPCN sites are going to require APA accred at the doctoral and internship levels.

 

[4410]

Most npsych post-docs (and most post-docs in general, actually) will require an APA approved program AND/OR a APA accredited predoc internship. My understanding from your previous posts is that you have neither.

Both my doctoral program and my internship site are in the APA accreditation process regarding self study and site review, so both could be accredited before I graduate in 2013. The internship was actually reviewed last year by APA and they were provided with recommendations. They have made all of the recommended changes and submitted to be reviewed in the March 25th, 2012 meeting so they probably will receive the news here in the next week or so. The doctoral program I attend is modeled after the APA accreditation curriculum but the program's first graduating class was a couple of years ago so they are now eligible to apply for APA accreditation.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

It was not my experience that there are more post-docs than people willing to fill them. In fact, in my state (Ohio) has eliminated the post doc requirement for licensure in part due to the scarcity of places willing to hire unlicensed PhD's.

Perhaps it varies by region.

Best,
Dr. E

P.S. Just talking about regular post doc's here, neuropsych is its own beast.

 

[erg923]

Both my doctoral program and my internship site are in the APA accreditation process regarding self study and site review, so both could be accredited before I graduate in 2013. The internship was actually reviewed last year by APA and they were provided with recommendations. They have made all of the recommended changes and submitted to be reviewed in the March 25th, 2012 meeting so they probably will receive the news here in the next week or so. The doctoral program I attend is modeled after the APA accreditation curriculum but the program's first graduating class was a couple of years ago so they are now eligible to apply for APA accreditation.

Unlike program accreditation, internship accreditation is NOT retroactive. If your internship is not site visited by APA during your internship year (and approved from that visit), you will have graduated from a nonaccredited internship. Period.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

It was not my experience that there are more post-docs than people willing to fill them. In fact, in my state (Ohio) has eliminated the post doc requirement for licensure in part due to the scarcity of places willing to hire unlicensed PhD's.

Perhaps it varies by region.

Best,
Dr. E

P.S. Just talking about regular post doc's here, neuropsych is its own beast.

Hmm, yeah, it very well could differ by region. My understanding was, at least around me, it's not too horribly difficult to find someone who's willing to supervise you in an informal postdoc. The hard part can be finding yourself a reasonable contract and/or establishing a patient base so you can get the hours to begin with.

Then again, I don't know that I'm a fan of the post-doc year licensure requirement to begin with, so any reason states have to eschew it isn't going to be met with much resistence from me.

 

[4410]

Hmm, yeah, it very well could differ by region. My understanding was, at least around me, it's not too horribly difficult to find someone who's willing to supervise you in an informal postdoc. The hard part can be finding yourself a reasonable contract and/or establishing a patient base so you can get the hours to begin with.

Then again, I don't know that I'm a fan of the post-doc year licensure requirement to begin with, so any reason states have to eschew it isn't going to be met with much resistence from me.

Not many neuropsychology postdoctoral fellowships participate in the APPCN NMS Match process. My guess is the majority of postdoctoral programs in neuropsychology do not participate in this Match.

 

[Pragma]

Not many neuropsychology postdoctoral fellowships participate in the APPCN NMS Match process. My guess is the majority of postdoctoral programs in neuropsychology do not participate in this Match.

Some don't, but a lot of those postdoctoral "fellowships" do not meet Division 40 guidelines for Board Certification. One could take such a postdoc and then find themselves SOL when they try to get boarded because the training was not up to par.

Also 4410, could you start providing some kind of a basis for the blanket statements you make? It is getting really irritating. The field is trying to establish some minimal standards.

 

[4410]

Some don't, but a lot of those postdoctoral "fellowships" do not meet Division 40 guidelines for Board Certification. One could take such a postdoc and then find themselves SOL when they try to get boarded because the training was not up to par.

Also 4410, could you start providing some kind of a basis for the blanket statements you make? It is getting really irritating. The field is trying to establish some minimal standards.

I did not actually count the programs. It did not seem that there were many programs on this list. I find it interesting that some of the programs I have interest in applying to are programs that prefer PhD/PsyD in school psychology. From reviewing APA classified adds and other classified adds, there seems to be many postdoctoral neuropsychology fellowships that do not participate in the APPCN Match. The APPCN requires APA accredited program and APA nternship. This may have something to do with the limited amount of programs participating in the APPCN match since many school psychology programs that have intensive neuropsychology training are not APA accredited. Also, it seems that a number of programs with a neuropsychology emphasis are in medical schools, biological or health psychology programs that may not have APA accreditation. Graduates of non APA accredited program would not be allowed to apply through the APPCN Match based on their criteria. From reviewing these programs, there must be some options to allow non APA accredited students to apply and complete these internships, as I know of doctoral level school psychologists who have completed these postdoctoral internships who are not from APA accredited programs.

 

[Pragma]

I did not actually count the programs. It did not seem that there were many programs on this list. I find it interesting that some of the programs I have interest in applying to are programs that prefer Phd/PsyD in school psychology. From reviewing APA classified adds and other classified adds, there seems to be many postdoctoral neuropsychology fellowships that do not participate in the APPCN Match. The APPCN requires APA accredited program and APA nternship. This may have something to do with the limited amount of programs participating in the APPCN match since many school psychology programs that have intensive neuropsychology training are not APA accredited. Also, it seems that a number of programs with a neuropsychology emphasis are in medical schools, biological or health psychology programs that may not have APA accreditation. Graduates of non APA accredited program would not be allowed to apply through the APPCN Match based on their criteria. From reviewing these programs, there must be some options to allow non APA accredited students to apply and complete these internships, as I know of doctoral level school psychologists who have completed these postdoctoral internships who are not from APA accredited programs.

What is a postdoctoral internship?

I would be careful if you are considering "school neuropsychology" programs. From what I understand, there are some significant limitations to the training that are involved with these programs.

The purpose of accredidation and standards is to protect the public from people who are practicing beyond their level of competence. I would argue that anyone using the title "neuropsychologist" who has not completed a full-time, two-year fellowship where they gain expertise in functional neuroanatomy is contributing to the decline in the profession of psychology.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

What is a postdoctoral internship?

I would be careful if you are considering "school neuropsychology" programs. From what I understand, there are some significant limitations to the training that are involved with these programs.

The purpose of accredidation and standards is to protect the public from people who are practicing beyond their level of competence. I would argue that anyone using the title "neuropsychologist" who has not completed a full-time, two-year fellowship where they gain expertise in functional neuroanatomy is contributing to the decline in the profession of psychology.

Agreed x100 re: minimal standards and "school neuropsychology."

As for the number of APPCN vs. non-APPCN neuro sites: the majority of the programs of which I know that have a reputation for providing excellent training are APPCN members (or at least were at some point), adhere to the Houston guidelines, and do participate in the match. There is also a handful of highly-reputable programs that are not in the match, owing at least in part to the fact that this gives them greater control over the applicant(s) they select. California in particular, though, seems to have a higher relative proportion of non-match sites. At least that's the feel I got; I personally didn't apply to any sites out there, though, so I might be wrong.

 

[4410]

Agreed x100 re: minimal standards and "school neuropsychology."

As for the number of APPCN vs. non-APPCN neuro sites: the majority of the programs of which I know that have a reputation for providing excellent training are APPCN members (or at least were at some point), adhere to the Houston guidelines, and do participate in the match. There is also a handful of highly-reputable programs that are not in the match, owing at least in part to the fact that this gives them greater control over the applicant(s) they select. California in particular, though, seems to have a higher relative proportion of non-match sites. At least that's the feel I got; I personally didn't apply to any sites out there, though, so I might be wrong.

I am referring to doctoral school psychology programs with an emphasis in neuropsychology not school neuropsychology which is a master's degree Diplomat to use neuropsychology principals in a school setting. A good number of School Psychologists at the doctoral level have training in neuropsychology with a two-year postdoctoral fellowship. Some of the Osteopathic Medicine schools are having school psychologist doctoral degrees with neuropsychology specialization, such the Philadephia School of Osteopathic Medicine. Texas A&M Educational Psychology PhD program has a neuropsychology specialization as does Texas Women's University School Psychology PhD has a neuropsychology specialization. Texas A&M is APA accredited but TWU is not APA accredited, but some of TWU graduates in school psychology acquire APA accredited internships and APA accredited postdoctoral fellowships.

The School Neuropsychology Diplomate is a designation for MS level school psychologists to use neuropsychological principals in their school psychology jobs, and they still may refer out to clinical neuropsychologists when needed. Normally clinical neuropsychologist have limited focus in a school setting, so it is not that school psychologist with the school neuropsychology diplomate status is replacing clinical neuropsychologist but that they are providing assessment, evaluations, and intervention services for children in a school setting that need these services due to congential or acquired brain injury. Normally these children are seen in a Children's Medical setting by clinical neuropsychologist but in the school setting they may receive services from a school psychologists with school neuropsychlogy training. Sometimes school psychologists and clinical neuropsychologists consult with each other to develop appropriate educational programing for the student.