Potential 4th time applicant

[lalalaaaaaa]

Hi everyone. So this cycle I'm striking out again, so I'm trying to gauge my chances if I reapply, to see is it's even worth while or if I should only apply to DO schools to increase my chances or give up on medicine altogether and try for nursing/PA (I want to go into medicine though ). I'm not super optimistic about my chances on reapplying because of my rejection history. To date I have had one interview my first cycle at state school was waitlisted and then rejected

Colorado Resident
32 MCAT (PS 12,BS 11,VR 9) will need to retake next year because it is expiring
3.63 cGPA (2.7 freshman year as architecture major and >3.8 next 4 years (aka once I was premed))
3.79 sGPA
English/Biochem double major

Activities

After undergrad:
1) AmeriCorps HealthCorps: (full year term, currently) tons of clinical experience in primary care clinic working as a care manager for medically complex patients. Patients are mostly homeless and/or with mental or behavioral health issues. This is in an urban east coast city.
2) AmeriCorps: (Full year term) local lead of my americorps program and also worked with socioeconomically disadvantaged elementary school kids at an after school program. This was at a semi-rural area in California.
3) Hospice Volunteer: lots of clinical, and I'm interested in hospice/palliative medicine
4) Research Assistant at a medical school in the Biochem Dept for 1.5 years. Cancer based bench research.
5) Intensive Bioethics summer internship
6) Teaching Assistant for a writing course at a prison
7) Camp counselor at a camp for people with developmental disabilities

During undergrad:
8) Research in Biochem dept on drug design. No pubs, but have a patent on our drug. Magna cum laude in Biochem for my research in this lab.
9) Research in English on the connectivity between science and literature. Summa cum laude in English for this thesis.
10) Teaching assistant for 8 Chem courses including Ochem and Gen chem sequences. Also a departmental tutor.
11) Director of leadership program for 4 years.
12) Participated in 2 leadership programs.
13) Advisory board for an org that advocated for safe practices for responsible drinking

Other:
14) Shadowing in multiple specialties (CT surgery, family, internal, psych, cardiology, palliative, street medicine, optho) also with a PA, medical assistants, and nurses.
15) Hobby: writing, have several poems about illness and medicine published in medical humanities journals.

That's about it for me. So much for anonymity Any advice is GREATLY appreciated!

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[dismorfik]

What's the harm in trying again... Besides the $... Apply to MD and DO simultaneously

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

What's the harm in trying again... Besides the $... Apply to MD and DO simultaneously

The money issue is huge. I'm totally broke after 2 years in AmeriCorps and spent the last of my savings applying this year. I also don't qualify for FAP because my parents income disqualifies me. Working a second job while studying for the MCAT wont really cut it to scrape together some savings.

The other issue is what to improve in the future so that I'm not spinning my wheels and wasting more money applying. I feel that I have a well rounded application and a huge commitment to serving undeserved communities so I'm not sure what glaring weakness I can address. Except I haven't had a science course in 3 years since graduating, so I feel like my competitiveness is waning because I'm losing my science street cred. The only option I think will be useful for next year is taking a postbac program and going 30-40G in debt :/

 

[wiloghby]

I have to say, I have absolutely no idea why you haven't gotten into medical school yet. You seem superbly qualified in terms of extracurriculars. Have you been using the same LORs? Is there some kind of red flag somewhere in them? Sure your GPA is slightly below the matriculant average, but your MCAT is on point and your extracurriculars go above and beyond anything I have done.

Have you talked to schools that you expected IIs from last year (i.e. U of C) about why you didn't get in? If you call around enough, some will tell you if there is some glaring red flag you don't know about. Your application seems strong enough to get in *somewhere*, so I am a little miffed.

 

[Calm down]

I am confused as well on why your haven't gotten accepted somewhere after 2 (maybe, hopefully not, 3 tries). You applied early and also have a good list of schools...
I can tell you your GPA, MCAT, and ECs are not the reasons why you are not in medical school (MD or DO). After your GPA, MCAT and ECs, I would think adcoms look at your application in general (PS, LORs, and secondaries). If I were you, I would do as wiloghby suggest and call the schools that you were rejected from and ask which area of you app needs improvement so you can be more competitive next cycle. Do not lose hope. This can be a marathon -- or quadrathlon in your case. Good luck! and btw, it's much too early to rule yourself out already this cycle.

 

[Aerus]

There has to be some red flag on your app somewhere. Either that, or you applied like a day before the deadline. Have you had any IA's or problems with Academic Integrity or possibly really bad letters of recommendation? What kind of schools are you applying to and how many schools are you applying to each year?

 

[didymus]

My cousin was rejected two years in a row and his stats were even better than yours (EC's and everything). Everyone was stupefied. He applied only to the state school both years, certain he would get in, but, he was informed later, during his interviews they could not determine why, exactly, he wanted to be a doctor; he was downright awful at communicating his reasons for wanting to do it. This year he started a PhD in neuroscience at a top university.

This career isn't for everyone (including some top performers). Your tenacity is admirable, without question, but maybe there is an awesome neuroscience (or fill in some other great field) program out there just waiting for you to kill it in.

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

There has to be some red flag on your app somewhere. Either that, or you applied like a day before the deadline. Have you had any IA's or problems with Academic Integrity or possibly really bad letters of recommendation? What kind of schools are you applying to and how many schools are you applying to each year?

The only Red flags that I can think of are a LOR from my research PI from working at the med school which wasn't anything amazing like my other LOR but was still good (I hated the lab though so this wasn't a shock). I also had an IA as a freshman (actually just a warning but my premed advisor said to disclose it) when an RA found a beer bottle in my dorm room. Seems like no biggie to me.

My first cycle I applied a little top heavy which was a fatal mistake that I learned the hard way (pre med advisor gave me TERRIBLE advice on a school list, and I was banking on getting into state school, woops). Last year I only applied to a few schools (state school and low tier) becuase of financial reasons so I'm not surprised I didn't get in. After not getting in the first time, I was really focused on making this year my big push by increasing my clinical experience (biggest weakness in previous cycles) which I think I've done. Hopefully it still works out.

I'm really just trying to focus on what to do next year. AmeriCorps is off the table for a third year, and the only other option I can think of to really make a difference is a post bacc/SMP which includes some sort of MCAT prep.

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

during his interviews they could not determine why, exactly, he wanted to be a doctor. This career isn't for everyone (including some top performers). Your tenacity is admirable, without question, but maybe there is an awesome neuroscience (or fill in some other great field) program out there just waiting for you to kill it in.

I definitely appreciate your response, and I really identify with your cousin to some extent (solid insight on your part). I used to have a big problem with this becuase my interests are so broad, and I do think it was a weakness my first cycle. However, I now have a very sharp focus and clear determination to pursue medicine. This is a factor of maturing through work with underserved populations and by increasing my exposure to medicine. I used to think there were other careers if I didn't go into medicine: teaching, phd in the humanities or sciences, social work, academic bioethics, but I've pursued those interests enough to know that none come close to being a physician (with the exception of being a PA, which is probably my backup option in terms of career).

 

[didymus]

I definitely appreciate your response, and I really identify with your cousin to some extent (solid insight on your part). I used to have a big problem with this becuase my interests are so broad, and I do think it was a weakness my first cycle. However, I now have a very sharp focus and clear determination to pursue medicine. This is a factor of maturing through work with underserved populations and by increasing my exposure to medicine. I used to think there were other careers if I didn't go into medicine: teaching, phd in the humanities or sciences, social work, academic bioethics, but I've pursued those interests enough to know that none come close to being a physician (with the exception of being a PA, which is probably my backup option in terms of career).

Right on. I hope my post didn't read as discouraging, because it wasn't intended that way at all.

I'm rooting for you, man. I just wanted to share some sincere thoughts with you in an attempt to be helpful.

Again, your tenacity is the real deal and I wish you the best.

 

[Aerus]

The only Red flags that I can think of are a LOR from my research PI from working at the med school which wasn't anything amazing like my other LOR but was still good (I hated the lab though so this wasn't a shock). I also had an IA as a freshman (actually just a warning but my premed advisor said to disclose it) when an RA found a beer bottle in my dorm room. Seems like no biggie to me.

My first cycle I applied a little top heavy which was a fatal mistake that I learned the hard way (pre med advisor gave me TERRIBLE advice on a school list, and I was banking on getting into state school, woops). Last year I only applied to a few schools (state school and low tier) becuase of financial reasons so I'm not surprised I didn't get in. After not getting in the first time, I was really focused on making this year my big push by increasing my clinical experience (biggest weakness in previous cycles) which I think I've done. Hopefully it still works out.

I'm really just trying to focus on what to do next year. AmeriCorps is off the table for a third year, and the only other option I can think of to really make a difference is a post bacc/SMP which includes some sort of MCAT prep.

Sounds like the reason you aren't getting in is mainly from your school list. Buy an MSAR and compile a big list that is a combination of schools that match your stats and ones that are below your stats. Ideally, you also want to find new schools that you haven't applied to. An SMP will be useless for you, since your GPA is already good. It is much more likely the SMP will hurt you.

The IA doesn't sound like it will do anything. The letter of rec....that's something we can't tell.

 

[Goro]

Strongly concur. Keep in mind that for any school that you have already applied to, you need to show them how you'veimproved since the previous application. I'm perplexed as to why you haven't had more success. Definitely invest in the MSAR and target schools whose median scores are near your stats, and include DO programs. Mine would take you in a heartbeat.

Sounds like the reason you aren't getting in is mainly from your school list. Buy an MSAR and compile a big list that is a combination of schools that match your stats and ones that are below your stats. Ideally, you also want to find new schools that you haven't applied to. An SMP will be useless for you, since your GPA is already good. It is much more likely the SMP will hurt you.

The IA doesn't sound like it will do anything. The letter of rec....that's something we can't tell.

 

[khrisskhoras]

Hi everyone. So this cycle I'm striking out again, so I'm trying to gauge my chances if I reapply, to see is it's even worth while or if I should only apply to DO schools to increase my chances or give up on medicine altogether and try for nursing/PA (I want to go into medicine though ). I'm not super optimistic about my chances on reapplying because of my rejection history. To date I have had one interview my first cycle at state school was waitlisted and then rejected

Colorado Resident
32 MCAT (PS 12,BS 11,VR 9) will need to retake next year because it is expiring
3.63 cGPA (2.7 freshman year as architecture major and >3.8 next 4 years (aka once I was premed))
3.79 sGPA
English/Biochem double major

Activities

After undergrad:
1) AmeriCorps HealthCorps: (full year term, currently) tons of clinical experience in primary care clinic working as a care manager for medically complex patients. Patients are mostly homeless and/or with mental or behavioral health issues. This is in an urban east coast city.
2) AmeriCorps: (Full year term) local lead of my americorps program and also worked with socioeconomically disadvantaged elementary school kids at an after school program. This was at a semi-rural area in California.
3) Hospice Volunteer: lots of clinical, and I'm interested in hospice/palliative medicine
4) Research Assistant at a medical school in the Biochem Dept for 1.5 years. Cancer based bench research.
5) Intensive Bioethics summer internship
6) Teaching Assistant for a writing course at a prison
7) Camp counselor at a camp for people with developmental disabilities
During undergrad:
8) Research in Biochem dept on drug design. No pubs, but have a patent on our drug. Magna cum laude in Biochem for my research in this lab.
9) Research in English on the connectivity between science and literature. Summa cum laude in English for this thesis.
10) Teaching assistant for 8 Chem courses including Ochem and Gen chem sequences. Also a departmental tutor.
11) Director of leadership program for 4 years.
12) Participated in 2 leadership programs.
13) Advisory board for an org that advocated for safe practices for responsible drinking

Other:
14) Shadowing in multiple specialties (CT surgery, family, internal, psych, cardiology, palliative, street medicine, optho) also with a PA, medical assistants, and nurses.
15) Hobby: writing, have several poems about illness and medicine published in medical humanities journals.

That's about it for me. So much for anonymity Any advice is GREATLY appreciated!

Was your PS bad? Maybe that's the problem, not stating your reasons for medicine properly

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

Thanks for the replies, everyone! To address the main points that have come up, I think I have a strong school list this year (check md apps if you want to know the details) I'm not sure what other school would have been great additions. I applied to a few schools that I have applied to in the past, but most are new. I decided not to apply to any CA school even though I grew up there and did AmeriCorps there (this might have been a mistake, but CA school are so competitive that I don't think it would have been a good option). I have no state ties other than CA and CO though.

I had the PS readers go over my statement a lot and I had peers, advisers, and a physician go over it, so I think it is strong (definitely not a deal breaker IMO). I decided not to go with the more english major-y style that I used in my first PS and was very direct about my interest in medicine as a way for me to pursue a career of service (this also informed my school choice quite a bit).

My application is quite different than my first one. I have a lot of new experiences and my application is primarily focused on my service experiences which are much stronger now (as opposed to a service/research focus in my first app when I was doing biomedical research full time).

 

[didymus]

I took a look at your school list (Goro and others are actually knowledgeable about these things, and will be the best ones to comment here), and the list looks top heavy stats-wise. Out of curiosity, why no DO schools on the list? Maybe you explained this earlier and I don't recall.

 

[walala]

Wow, I'm also very surprised you haven't gotten in anywhere yet, or at least gotten more interviews in any of the cycles you applied.. If there are no other red flags than what you've already mentioned, I would have people look over your Personal Statement again and be weary of your letter of recs if you've been using the same ones.

If you can't get in with your stats, that makes me a bit nervous

Good luck tho!~

 

[user3]

it is not too late to apply for DO this year if you are dead set on getting in.

 

[Omppu27]

I don't think your list is top-heavy at all. From your posts it seems that your choices in schools were fairly poor the first two times around. If your MDapps is up to date, you still have yet to hear from many schools. That said, remember that the cycle is far from over and you should still have hope.

Good luck! You're determination is inspiring.

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

When is it considered "too late" to apply DO? If I crank out an app in the next 2 weeks, would that be too late? I know for MD schools its way to late to submit an app.

Also, what are some good DO schools to apply to? (sorry if this is too broad, I just really don't know much about the DO app process)

In regards to school list, I thought I had a strong list. The only reason I applied to Iowa, Dartmouth, and Emory, are because they granted me a fee waiver based on my AmeriCorps service. Any suggestions for schools to add/remove in the future that would make for a more competative list?

 

[mtbski]

I'm a little curious, have things shaped up for you this cycle? I can't imagine someone with stats and ecs like yours not getting in. If you're set on the md, I don't think the postbacc or smp route is a bad option (as long as you work your butt off). I've heard from talking to students at Georgetown and Tulane (theirs is called the ACP), that if you get above the 50th percentile in the class, you're pretty much guaranteed entry. It basically just gives you a kick ass connection to a certain school. I haven't seen the numbers for this, but I think it's worth looking into.

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

I'm a little curious, have things shaped up for you this cycle? I can't imagine someone with stats and ecs like yours not getting in. If you're set on the md, I don't think the postbacc or smp route is a bad option (as long as you work your butt off). I've heard from talking to students at Georgetown and Tulane (theirs is called the ACP), that if you get above the 50th percentile in the class, you're pretty much guaranteed entry. It basically just gives you a kick ass connection to a certain school. I haven't seen the numbers for this, but I think it's worth looking into.

Thanks for thinking of me So far, nothing has shaped up. I have a handful of rejections, one hold at Vermont, and silence from the rest. I wrote an update to all schools on 12/3 that was about my current AmeriCorps position at a health clinic (This wasn't on my amcas because the position started in sept. It was mentioned on my PS though.).

Thanks for the heads up about the post bacc programs too. I will definitely look into those schools. I'm already considering applying to Temple's program.

 

[knv2u]

Hi everyone. So this cycle I'm striking out again, so I'm trying to gauge my chances if I reapply, to see is it's even worth while or if I should only apply to DO schools to increase my chances or give up on medicine altogether and try for nursing/PA (I want to go into medicine though ). I'm not super optimistic about my chances on reapplying because of my rejection history. To date I have had one interview my first cycle at state school was waitlisted and then rejected

Colorado Resident
32 MCAT (PS 12,BS 11,VR 9) will need to retake next year because it is expiring
3.63 cGPA (2.7 freshman year as architecture major and >3.8 next 4 years (aka once I was premed))
3.79 sGPA
English/Biochem double major ...

There's definitely something amiss with your application. Your GPA and MCAT should get you into some MD program (or DO if you prefer), and your extracurricular activities sound solid to me. Either your application strategy is poor (applying only to schools with far higher medians/averages) or there must be some sort of huge red flag. How are your letters of recommendation? Do you interview well (if you received interviews)? If for some reason the adcoms question your interest or dedication to medicine (e.g. interview problems, etc.), then this could be the kiss of death. Do you have any disciplinary or legal issues? I'm not being nosey, but I am having a hard time understanding why you haven't been accepted to any medical schools after three attempts.

Edited to add: I wish you luck if you apply again. I would apply to more schools(talk to the schools; some may have waivers outside of FAP) and cast a broad net applying both to allopathic and osteopathic schools.

 

[knv2u]

I'm really just trying to focus on what to do next year. AmeriCorps is off the table for a third year, and the only other option I can think of to really make a difference is a post bacc/SMP which includes some sort of MCAT prep.

This sounds like a viable option. Just make sure you evaluate the financial aid ramifications. I don't know either way, but make sure that financial aid is available for the post bacc (i.e. you have not hit your federal loan cap) or your SMP. This may affect your choice of program or post-bacc v. SMP.

P.S. Sorry for the redundancy of my first post; I didn't read throw all of the other posts before commenting.

 

[Temperature101]

When is it considered "too late" to apply DO? If I crank out an app in the next 2 weeks, would that be too late? I know for MD schools its way to late to submit an app.

Also, what are some good DO schools to apply to? (sorry if this is too broad, I just really don't know much about the DO app process)

In regards to school list, I thought I had a strong list. The only reason I applied to Iowa, Dartmouth, and Emory, are because they granted me a fee waiver based on my AmeriCorps service. Any suggestions for schools to add/remove in the future that would make for a more competative list?

If you don't get into MD this cycle, you should forget about MD and apply only DO next cycle. Your stats are competitive for all DO schools and you will be a PHYSICIAN as a DO. Good Luck.

 

[solitarius]

A little bit too early for this thread, tbh.

By the way, you shouldn't automatically assume there's a red flag in your application. If you've been on enough interviews, you'll see that the vast majority of applicants have maybe 1 or 2 interviews (including the one they were on) and are really thirsty. What this means is that MD admissions is very competitive this year for the standard, competitive applicant.

You should assume that being a third-time reapplicant puts you at a certain disadvantage in general. I also disagree with people who think your list this year is "top-heavy". It seems like a reasonable list if this were your first cycle.

My first cycle I applied a little top heavy which was a fatal mistake that I learned the hard way (pre med advisor gave me TERRIBLE advice on a school list, and I was banking on getting into state school, woops). Last year I only applied to a few schools (state school and low tier) becuase of financial reasons so I'm not surprised I didn't get in. After not getting in the first time, I was really focused on making this year my big push by increasing my clinical experience (biggest weakness in previous cycles) which I think I've done. Hopefully it still works out.

Based on my own experience, I'm finding that there are multiple layers to this process. Hard stats only puts you in a range, but even at the top schools, that range can be wide. The next layer is fit. All the schools I got interviews at shared common characteristics, and these schools varied in competitiveness. I think this fit issue really blows out the idea of a "safety school" simply because you can't get into any MD school based on hard numbers. The last layer is yield. They'll interview/admit you if they think there is a strong chance you'll come.

Goro says his school would admit you, so I guess that means DO is an option next year if you can keep up your score on the MCAT retake.

If you're dead set set on MD and if it gets to a 4th time around, I'm sure you'll find some great general advice in the Reapp board. Mine would be to drop medicine and do something unrelated to health care for a few years. Give yourself a chance to be happy by living your life out of the premed bubble. If you decide to reapply after that time, take the MCAT and you'll have a new narrative/angle in applying.

 

[ThisCouldBeYou]

I'm guessing some of those red flags you identified are accurate: top heavy schools, not applying to enough the next year, a so-so LoR, etc. but I do think your application sounds good enough to get more IIs. It could be the competition, but it's also that nothing really stood out. I'm also guessing you are a CA resident, which is tough for many. So, before you rush off to apply to DO, you might want to consider other alternatives: nursing or PA. The time to get a degree and working is significantly shorter and therefore much less expensive. Best part: there's a high demand.

 

[TeddyBoomBoom]

So, before you rush off to apply to DO, you might want to consider other alternatives: nursing or PA..

I disagree. If s/he wants to be a physician, why not apply DO??

 

[user3]

When is it considered "too late" to apply DO? If I crank out an app in the next 2 weeks, would that be too late? I know for MD schools its way to late to submit an app.

Also, what are some good DO schools to apply to? (sorry if this is too broad, I just really don't know much about the DO app process)

In regards to school list, I thought I had a strong list. The only reason I applied to Iowa, Dartmouth, and Emory, are because they granted me a fee waiver based on my AmeriCorps service. Any suggestions for schools to add/remove in the future that would make for a more competative list?

Hurry up and apply to DO. You should get interviews pretty much everywhere you apply, but do expect to be waitlisted at some schools since it will be a bit late. Apply to at least 10 schools to be safe since it is already December.

 

[nabilesmail]

Yeah, if you don't mind the D.O. route, you can still apply Now. It only took me 1 day to be verified.