PPP Approved - Take the funds?

[cyanide12345678]

So my LLC was approved for $16665 by the SBA - the funds should be arriving in a couple of days. My question is whether to proceed with taking this funding as the guidelines require that the loan is "necessary to support the ongoing operations of the business".

My hours in May decreased as an indirect effect of Corona. Subsequently the revenue decreases from 37.5k monthly revenue to 15.6k revenue for the month of June (which is payment for May's shifts). June onwards my number of shifts normalizes. My concern is that even the 15.6k revenue of June is still enough to meet payroll of 15k, which is the W2 payment to myself.

Do you think I can safely make this attestation that the funding is necessary to support the ongoing operations of the business given that I am losing 60% of revenue in the month of June due to decrease in shifts in May? What did the rest of you guys do?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Groove]

I didn't apply and wouldn't take them, but that's me. I just don't feel right about it. Of all the people that need funds during this time...I'm not one of them. Technically, yes...my income was affected but dude...I could go a year and not feel it. Probably two. I'd rather have it given to a real mom and pop business that's having to weigh firing the 25yo mother or 38yo father of 3 kids.

 

[cyanide12345678]

I didn't apply and wouldn't take them, but that's me. I just don't feel right about it. Of all the people that need funds during this time...I'm not one of them. Technically, yes...my income was affected but dude...I could go a year and not feel it. Probably two. I'd rather have it given to a real mom and pop business that's having to weigh firing the 25yo mother or 38yo father of 3 kids.

That is one of my dilemmas. But at the same time, a majority of the funds have been taken by fairly big businesses rather than mom and pop stores.

The alternate argument that I'm also considering - eventually taxes will increase to cover these ridiculous expenses that the government is making. As physicians who are usually in the top 1%, a lot of this tax burden will get shifted to us.

Phrased another way, if you could pay 105k in Federal taxes instead of 120k for 2020, would you take it? I think 120-130k is probably going to be the minimum federal tax I'll be paying for 2020. A part of me also feels that I'm already paying my fair share of taxes. This 120-130k doesn't even account for state income tax, medicare, SS, federal unemployment, state unemployment, school district, local taxes that I'll be paying as well.

We pay a lot of taxes. And we also are on the front lines risking the health of ourselves and our family members. So....i don't know what the right answer is.

 

[cyanide12345678]

I didn't apply and wouldn't take them, but that's me. I just don't feel right about it. Of all the people that need funds during this time...I'm not one of them. Technically, yes...my income was affected but dude...I could go a year and not feel it. Probably two. I'd rather have it given to a real mom and pop business that's having to weigh firing the 25yo mother or 38yo father of 3 kids.

But i totally get this. This is why i feel such a dilemma and am having a tough time to taking the funds. To me 16k is just a little more than 5 shifts. But to some people that's food on the table. But my not taking the funds, doesn't guarantee some mom and pop store getting them, could be the LA Lakers taking the funds

 

[Groove]

That is one of my dilemmas. But at the same time, a majority of the funds have been taken by fairly big businesses rather than mom and pop stores.

The alternate argument that I'm also considering - eventually taxes will increase to cover these ridiculous expenses that the government is making. As physicians who are usually in the top 1%, a lot of this tax burden will get shifted to us.

Phrased another way, if you could pay 105k in Federal taxes instead of 120k for 2020, would you take it? I think 120k is probably going to be the minimum federal tax I'll be paying for 2020. A part of my also feels that I'm already paying my fair share of taxes.

I feel you and I'm not saying it's unethical, depending on your perspective. it just hits close to home for me as I've got a few childhood friends who make pennies on the dollar who have been laid off and are having to get loans from the bank just to feed their families and pay bills until the economy gets restarted again. Yet, here I am with more than enough in the bank and could easily stop working for months and be fine. I also have much, much more job security than they do and although I'm making less, I'm still earning income. As a conservative, I spend so much time ranting about "free government handouts" and the wasted spending in Washington coupled with the public dependence on free government programs....yet here I would be considering a "free handout". No thanks.

But hey, you don't need our approval. Do what you feel is the right thing to do.

 

[NITRAS]

I’d be be very careful. This is a loan with contingencies for forgiveness, not ”free money.”

I just think this “help” is going to bite a bunch of people in the ass. That’s just me. I’m also the guy that thinks the government can screw up pretty much anything.

 

[Porfirio]

If you qualify then you qualify.

You have every right to it. I would never say no welfare check to a welfare person or no unemployment to the unemployed - that’s unAmerican...

 

[bravotwozero]

I’d be be very careful. This is a loan with contingencies for forgiveness, not ”free money.”

I just think this “help” is going to bite a bunch of people in the ass. That’s just me. I’m also the guy that thinks the government can screw up pretty much anything.

Exactly this. I would not take this if this was anything other than 'free money', as it could end up being a loan that I'd have to pay back with interest, regardless of how low the interest rate is. Debt and me don't get along very well.

 

[Birdstrike]

If you qualify then you qualify.

You have every right to it. I would never say no welfare check to a welfare person or no unemployment to the unemployed - that’s unAmerican...

Ever known of anyone to give back their social security check to the government because they, "didn't need it"?

 

[chocomorsel]

So my LLC was approved for $16665 by the SBA - the funds should be arriving in a couple of days. My question is whether to proceed with taking this funding as the guidelines require that the loan is "necessary to support the ongoing operations of the business".

My hours in May decreased as an indirect effect of Corona. Subsequently the revenue decreases from 37.5k monthly revenue to 15.6k revenue for the month of June (which is payment for May's shifts). June onwards my number of shifts normalizes. My concern is that even the 15.6k revenue of June is still enough to meet payroll of 15k, which is the W2 payment to myself.

Do you think I can safely make this attestation that the funding is necessary to support the ongoing operations of the business given that I am losing 60% of revenue in the month of June due to decrease in shifts in May? What did the rest of you guys do?

Take the money. I am also one of those altruistic people, but it this situation, I am all for the money grab. Especially considering that all these large companies have taken advantage of the situation. You giving it back does not mean that some mom and pop shop is going to get it.
I haven't gotten approved, I doubt I will, so if you don't want it, cut me that check. I got a mortgage I can put that money towards at that interest rate, even though I may have to pay it back.

 

[thegenius]

That is one of my dilemmas. But at the same time, a majority of the funds have been taken by fairly big businesses rather than mom and pop stores.

The alternate argument that I'm also considering - eventually taxes will increase to cover these ridiculous expenses that the government is making. As physicians who are usually in the top 1%, a lot of this tax burden will get shifted to us.

Phrased another way, if you could pay 105k in Federal taxes instead of 120k for 2020, would you take it? I think 120-130k is probably going to be the minimum federal tax I'll be paying for 2020. A part of me also feels that I'm already paying my fair share of taxes. This 120-130k doesn't even account for state income tax, medicare, SS, federal unemployment, state unemployment, school district, local taxes that I'll be paying as well.

We pay a lot of taxes. And we also are on the front lines risking the health of ourselves and our family members. So....i don't know what the right answer is.

I think if you could guarantee that a real, mom/pop small business would get the money then I probably would.

Unfortunately you can't.

I didn't even apply. I thought about it. But then I thought about my sister who is an architect in Chicago and works for herself and is having a hard time and that is who the money is intended for.

 

[thegenius]

I’d be be very careful. This is a loan with contingencies for forgiveness, not ”free money.”

I just think this “help” is going to bite a bunch of people in the ass. That’s just me. I’m also the guy that thinks the government can screw up pretty much anything.

It is a cheap ass loan though. 1% if it is not forgiven? That is super cheap money.

Hell you could make 2% in one day investing in the stock market.

 

[thegenius]

I’d be be very careful. This is a loan with contingencies for forgiveness, not ”free money.”

I just think this “help” is going to bite a bunch of people in the ass. That’s just me. I’m also the guy that thinks the government can screw up pretty much anything.

I hear ya man.

Then I read things like Who Pays For This?
and we will pay this off and I don't really understand that article at all.

The main takeaway from that article is that personal debt, where you have to pay it off at some point, is different than government debt, which doesn't really ever have to be paid off.

 

[thegenius]

Ever known of anyone to give back their social security check to the government because they, "didn't need it"?

That makes total sense, but there are some who can't get the PPP money while others can. As opposed to SS money.

I tend to think if you qualified for it and got it, then you should take it if you agree to the terms. It's not your fault that other small business owners who need the money can't get it (at least I don't think it's your fault).

 

[Groove]

It is a cheap ass loan though. 1% if it is not forgiven? That is super cheap money.

Hell you could make 2% in one day investing in the stock market.

I wonder how many people said the same thing on Feb 20th, 2020?

 

[Birdstrike]

That makes total sense, but there are some who can't get the PPP money while others can. As opposed to SS money.

I tend to think if you qualified for it and got it, then you should take it if you agree to the terms. It's not your fault that other small business owners who need the money can't get it (at least I don't think it's your fault).

We just had a group board meeting today regarding the PPP. We've had to cut many staff hours. So we applied for the PPP very quickly. We got approved for $2 million. They next day, before the money could be disbursed the program ran out of money, because a bunch of a**hole megacorporations & jackhole private liberal arts universities with multi-million dollar cash reserves defrauded the American taxpayers and the program. Now we're reapplying for round two of PPP which has terms that are much less favorable.

 

[cyanide12345678]

We just had a group board meeting today regarding the PPP. We've had to cut many staff hours. So we applied for the PPP very quickly. We got approved for $2 million. They next day, before the money could be disbursed the program ran out of money, because a bunch of a**hole megacorporations & jackhole private liberal arts universities with multi-million dollar cash reserves defrauded the American taxpayers and the program. Now we're reapplying for round two of PPP which has terms that are much less favorable.

Surprised that you had to reapply. My application was only done once on the 9th. Money ran out some 10 days later. And then Chase kept processing applications in anticipation that more money would be available. Then they just processed the application 5 days ago and sent it to sba. Sba approved yesterday. Email from Chase says funding will arrive in 3 days

 

[cyanide12345678]

We just had a group board meeting today regarding the PPP. We've had to cut many staff hours. So we applied for the PPP very quickly. We got approved for $2 million. They next day, before the money could be disbursed the program ran out of money, because a bunch of a**hole megacorporations & jackhole private liberal arts universities with multi-million dollar cash reserves defrauded the American taxpayers and the program. Now we're reapplying for round two of PPP which has terms that are much less favorable.

How did you guys qualify for 2 million? I think you need a minimum for 100 people employed making 100k+ to get 2 million. Hard to imagine how you have 100+ people working in a pain group.

 

[Apollyon]

How did you guys qualify for 2 million? I think you need a minimum for 100 people employed making 100k+ to get 2 million. Hard to imagine how you have 100+ people working in a pain group.

He's in a multidisciplinary group.

 

[southerndoc]

I think docs have just as much a right to the money as anyone else, but be prepared to be publically shamed for it. Loan recipients will have their tax ID's published in a database, and I'm sure there are more than a few newspapers around the country that will try to list all those not in need who received funds. Given how people love to hate on the rich doctors, I'm sure docs that received PPP funds will be listed.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Take the money.

 

[Birdstrike]

How did you guys qualify for 2 million? I think you need a minimum for 100 people employed making 100k+ to get 2 million. Hard to imagine how you have 100+ people working in a pain group.

We're a multispecialty group with 40 providers and 150 employees. We're about 50% primary care and the other 50% is IM subspecialties. I'm the only pain guy. We used to have 25 EM docs, too, until the hospital dropped one of our contracts and we walked away from another.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

Take the money.

 

[cyanide12345678]

We're a multispecialty group with 40 providers and 150 employees. We're about 50% primary care and the other 50% is IM subspecialties. I'm the only pain guy. We used to have 25 EM docs, too, until the hospital dropped one of our contracts and we walked away from another.

Revenue is down significantly I'm guessing for the entire group then? How much of a drop in income is the average person looking at?

 

[Birdstrike]

Revenue is down significantly I'm guessing for the entire group then? How much of a drop in income is the average person looking at?

Everyone is down. The amount varies. Overall our patient volume was down about 50% company wide in April and collections are down about 25% since they lag about a month. Next month collections should follow to that 50% number. Whether take home pay follows to that 50% drop will depend on how much we can cut overhead, but it probably won’t be far off. We’ve gone to a temporary 4-day work week (no Fridays) which means no support staff salaries to pay that day and some other changes. Rent and many other expenses plow ahead, however. We saw a slight uptick in patient volume last week.

We’ve had 0 staff (out of around 140) test positive for COVID-19 and only 2 patents test positive. That’s excluding our intensivists which have had several in house, but who have been far from overwhelmed.

 

[betamale]

I have same dilemma. I got approved and most likely will be foregiven but I am concerned about implications of fraud since the reason I applied is because of concern for COVID illness and decrease in income. I may just return the funds

 

[jw3600]

Why don’t you take it and donate some of it to a small business?

 

[thegenius]

If you think that you can have the money legally, then I would keep it (or treat it as you would any other income). if you think you are committing a crime, then I would return it.

 

[sylvanthus]

I get the temptation, I just wouldnt want to take the risk for that amount of money, plus its kinda sketchy. On the other hand, so many big businesses that dont need funds are stealing now, so unlikely theyd notice or care about your money. It just feels a tad icky.

 

[CheGuevaraMD]

A classic:

 

[Birdstrike]

I have same dilemma. I got approved and most likely will be foregiven but I am concerned about implications of fraud since the reason I applied is because of concern for COVID illness and decrease in income. I may just return the funds

Just have a healthcare attorney and/or accountant tell you how and if you can use the money in compliance with the law and take whatever you can legally take and use. What you can't use, send back. I wouldn't take or return any money without knowing the implications of doing either.

My group (40 providers) took plenty of this money and so far, most of it has gone to employees to pay them for the time we shutdown and they lost hours and to keep from laying people off, all within compliance of the law. A little bit of it has been used to reduce other COVID related expenses. Most of it we haven't used yet, since the business losses are ongoing and a second wave is possible. Our business people are working very hard to make sure all the loan money is used properly and so as much as possible (hopefully all) is forgiven and judged as in compliance.

 

[betamale]

You're right. The amount is small compared to my stress from a potential govt scrutiny. It seems like I caught the bug and left largely unscathed financially and asymptomatic. I could have justified that money as hazard pay and reimbursement for some hours lost like everyone else received but I've decided to find a second job instead to make cash now that I'm immune (I hope)

 

[chocomorsel]

You're right. The amount is small compared to my stress from a potential govt scrutiny. It seems like I caught the bug and left largely unscathed financially and asymptomatic. I could have justified that money as hazard pay and reimbursement for some hours lost like everyone else received but I've decided to find a second job instead to make cash now that I'm immune (I hope)

You just got randomly tested because you were curious? Debating about this.

 

[bravotwozero]

You just got randomly tested because you were curious? Debating about this.

I see no benefit to it and all kinds of downsides. You wanna get tested for antibodies? sure, because nobody knows what the heck to do with that. But if you test positive, enjoy 2 weeks of home quarantine and unpaid leave...

 

[chocomorsel]

I see no benefit to it and all kinds of downsides. You wanna get tested for antibodies? sure, because nobody knows what the heck to do with that. But if you test positive, enjoy 2 weeks of home quarantine and unpaid leave...

And that is why I am debating it honestly considering I work in a Covid unit. Is my staying home, feeling perfectly fine, instead of working in a Covid unit where I take necessary precautions anyway, any more detrimental to me? Certainly not to the patients.
Many would argue that I may even then be exposed to a higher viral load that would affect me worse eventually.
I don’t know.

 

[southerndoc]

I see no benefit to it and all kinds of downsides. You wanna get tested for antibodies? sure, because nobody knows what the heck to do with that. But if you test positive, enjoy 2 weeks of home quarantine and unpaid leave...

That's hospital dependent. If you are symptom free, you aren't required to quarantine for 14 days if your antibody test is positive. If your nasal swab is positive, then it more likely indicates active infection and you will likely need to quarantine for a few days even if asymptomatic.

 

[Birdstrike]

That's hospital dependent. If you are symptom free, you aren't required to quarantine for 14 days if your antibody test is positive. If your nasal swab is positive, then it more likely indicates active infection and you will likely need to quarantine for a few days even if asymptomatic.

If asymptomatic, IgG (+), but IgM (-), what's the reason for that person to be put out of work? Isn't that exactly the person you want at work? They have had past infection, likely > 1 month ago and now are immune. They're the same as a newly vaccinated person and have the immune status we're striving to achieve for all. If you have symptoms, don't bother with antibodies at all, get the nasal PCR swab. But if you get your antibodies to check for past infection and have no reason to suspect recent infection, only check your IgG.

 

[southerndoc]

If asymptomatic, IgG (+), but IgM (-), what's the reason for that person to be put out of work? Isn't that exactly the person you want at work? They have had past infection likely > 1 month ago and now are immune. They're the same as a newly vaccinated person and have the immune status we're striving to achieve for all. If you have symptoms, don't bother with antibodies at all, get the nasal PCR swab. But if you get your antibodies to check for past infection and no reason to suspect recent infection, only check your IgG.

Yea I don't understand why you would want someone to quarantine with a positive antibody test.

 

[Birdstrike]

Yea I don't understand why you would want someone to quarantine with a positive antibody test.

I'm hearing of so much of this:


"We must stay shutdown!"

Why?

"Because the rules! The guidelines! Too onerous!"

Follow them properly, don't make them up as you go.

"We can't follow the rules like that!"

Why not?

"Because if we did, we'd have to shutdown!"


It's circular reasoning that reinforces the fear state.

 

[RustedFox]

I'm hearing of so much of this:


"We must stay shutdown!"

Why?

"Because the rules! The guidelines! Too onerous!"

Follow them properly, don't make them up as you go.

"We can't follow the rules like that!"

Why not?

"Because if we did, we'd have to shutdown!"


It's circular reasoning that reinforces the fear state.

The muggles...

 

[betamale]

You just got randomly tested because you were curious? Debating about this.

Mostly wanted to move on with my life and start traveling again, work out without fear, and enjoy a meal in a restaurant. I just flew again for the first time today since February. I'll most likely continue to get low level exposure (booster ) at work and hopefully mantain adaptive immunity. Either way, I'm not going to go back to lockdown mode.

Trump 2020