Pre-Allo vs Allo perceptions of medicine

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Panda Bear said:
If you think medicine is a "calling" then somebody has to have called you.

I think it is acceptable for one to use the term "calling" without having something or someone outside of one's self make the call. Simply because the religious have personified in a diety what draws one to do something doesn't mean they are the only ones who can have a strong and unexplainable subconscious draw to a career, life's work, etc...

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Ross434 said:
I agree that medicine is more merit based than other careers, but, people as skilled and as bright as us arent going to be staying in the same spot for long anywhere. That idea about being stuck in a dead end job usually tends to be an excuse after the fact that the person wasnt trying hard enough.


thats not what i meant. I meant like even if you are skilled and bright enough to do any job you wanted, succeeded, became a big shot, then lost your job after 30 years...you realized that you haven't done much for half your life besides make some money, and are left trying to get back in the groove by getting whatever job you can find, which would probably not be nearly the same caliber as the one u previously held. Or if youre an investor and are bright/lucky enough to make loads of money for 20 years, and then lose it all...you end up in the same or worse position. And being skilled/bright enough to become a doctor doesn't guarantee that those same skills/intelligence will get you anywhere in business/law or any other job.
 
tupac_don said:
I truly believe that most successful and happiest doctors for that matter are those consumed by medicine, who live & breathe to be doctors. However, your avg med student does not want to be a "slave" to medicine and that's where the incongruity is occurring. Well that's my long rant for the day. But I think I might have stumbled upon something here. To really be successful, in medicine, you have to accept it not as a career but as a way of life. If you can't, then it is not the best field for you.

I disagree with you here...I think that to truly be happy in life you have to have a balanced life - you have to have things you love outside of your career. Most people in this world are not happy if all they have is work, and this holds true for doctors as well. Keeping 'non-medicine' interests is what keeps most people sane throughout this. It's what gives you a break from school/work and lets you come back to it completely refreshed and ready to jump into the next day. Without outside interests you lose a part of yourself, won't be happy, and won't be a good doctor. You have to take care of yourself in order to take care of patients.
 
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MJB said:
Seth, I pretty much agree completely.

Ross, I wonder if you've ever worked in the "real" world...not meant to be an insult, I just wonder sometimes with the comments you make..

I've seen lots of people "get comfortable" after trying to bust their tails and not seeing it pay off...It's not hard to do at all...and to borrow a quote from a favorite movie of mine....it's not hard to get comfortable when you have:




My reasoning for wanting Med School is because medicine has always interested me, and I consider getting into the field "unfinished business"...I want to help people, I want a secure future, and I don't want to die doing what I do now...If I can become a doc, I think I'll have a job I can enjoy (or at least one that I think contributes to society) and I will get to be a decision maker, which might be the WORST part about working in a large corporation...fighting all the political BS. At the very least, working in healthcare will allow me to do something I'm interested in, which is more than I can say now...

Man it seems like we have the exact same perspective. Have you ever seen Office Space? I see a lot of myself in Peter Gibbons. He ends up going from programming to construction and if you ask me, he made the right move.
 
Ross434 said:
Why does everyone mention 401k's ... Who the hell dreams of getting a 401k when they grow up!? Gah! Its like, yeah, man, i have a nice house, and a freaking 401k man. Lol
:laugh: b/c of the lack of social security ;)
 
Thanks for the kind words to those of you who liked my post. Its funny, writing my response was really a late night cathartic rant as I was feeling a bit nostalgic about my time in med school (as one poster mentioned). I didn't neccessarily mean to indicate that it was generalizable to everyone, but it seems like some people took something positive from it. I'm thrilled about that. Everyone will have their own unique versions of how they look back on things, but that was mine, at least on that particular night.

best,
worriedwell
 
Have you ever seen Office Space?


Seen it? Hell...I LIVE it! :)

I'm hungover/tired today, and I swear to God, I could pull a Costanza this afternoon and take a nap under my desk and no one would know....they're all so dorked up on doing "value added" tasks and "thinking outside the box"... :sleep:
 
MJB said:
Seen it? Hell...I LIVE it! :)

I'm hungover/tired today, and I swear to God, I could pull a Costanza this afternoon and take a nap under my desk and no one would know....they're all so dorked up on doing "value added" tasks and "thinking outside the box"... :sleep:
HA! Those are the "new" coin words for the past 2 years. I do believe one of the magazines published a list of them. I'm sick of hearing them. Get me out of the financial world. PLEASE!!! :mad:
 
MJB said:
Seen it? Hell...I LIVE it! :)

I'm hungover/tired today, and I swear to God, I could pull a Costanza this afternoon and take a nap under my desk and no one would know....they're all so dorked up on doing "value added" tasks and "thinking outside the box"... :sleep:

:laugh: Still recovering from the Cinco De Mayo festivites? My boss actually had a talk with me about sleeping at my desk. He said it was embarrassing for him. Somehow I haven't been fired and even managed to get a decent raise and bonus this year. If only they would lay me off so I could draw unemployment wages while starting my first year of med school.
 
i61164 said:
:laugh: Still recovering from the Cinco De Mayo festivites? My boss actually had a talk with me about sleeping at my desk. He said it was embarrassing for him. Somehow I haven't been fired and even managed to get a decent raise and bonus this year. If only they would lay me off so I could draw unemployment wages while starting my first year of med school.

You celebrate Cinco de Mayo in Cincinnati?
 
jonQpub said:
i have 3 bachelors degrees, 3 masters, a PhD, worked in ER's during summers as an EMT, and am currently performing autopsies. now, i'm only 24

wow, how'd you manage to do that all at only 24?? that's amazing

btw in my humble humble first year opinion -- med school has been all that i had expected and much much more ... it's been hard but i've loved every single little bit and wouldn't change it for the world. i dunno how that will change come 3rd year, but in my naive opinion med school is well worth the wait and the effort.
 
worriedwell said:
My perception as I approach graduating med school (and thus have lots of free time to offer sage advice to strangers) is that I have changed a lot in four years. I was very naive starting out. I tried giving some tours as a 4th year on interview days and I realized that I had a hard time relating to the interviewees. Whereas, when I was a first year, I totally bonded with all of the interviewees. Now, their questions seemed so unimportant. They were so curious about anatomy lab and transcipts and curriculum that I just felt like I wasn't that helpful to them because all of that stuff was so useless to me and any aspect of matching into a residency and finding a specialty career that you would be happy with. The first two years are such a distant blur, its unbelievable. They matter so little its almost as if they didn't even happen. Third year, working with patients, is etched in my head though. That was when med school really started. I feel weathered and older. I swear the number of gray hairs on my head has increased by about tenfold.

Let me qualify it by saying that I went straight from college to med school and I think my experience is somewhat different than someone who took 3 years off before school (which makes me wonder if it really is just the maturing that comes with aging that has contributed to my perceptions changing so much). 3rd year of clinical medicine is a big eye opener. You learn to value life, to respect death, and to never be surprised by the worst. You remember patients' faces that you treated 2 years ago but you don't "feel" for them the way their families do. You "feel" for them the way doctors do, in a wierdly professional, but real way.

I still, if not moreso, believe that it is an honor and a huge responsibility to be a doctor with expectations that far exceed almost any other occupation (except obvious ones like being the president). Its amazing that we are granted the ability, directly or indirectly, to subjectively make definitive decisions that are often morally in debate among the lay community. And our society doesn't agree on them, yet on a day to day basis, doctors wield their power to make these decisions based on their own value system. It is really amazing.

I also believe that there are some doctors that are significantly better than others at being doctors, like exponentially better, and its very obvious if you are on the doctor's side of the door, but very difficult to tell if you are the patient.

In terms of the pre-allo culture...I think people spend way too much time debating prestige and rankings and grades and checklist items for what makes them valuable as a candidate to be a doctor. I now realize that adcoms are a much wiser group than premeds and they usually have a decent idea of who is a stat stuffer and who is the real deal. By the way, there aren't enough "real deals" in my opinion to fill all of the medical schools. Thus, all med schools have a large proportion of stat stuffers. Sometimes, those stat stuffers turn out to be the real deal, but many times they do not.

I think its difficult to predict who will be able to thrive in med school and who won't. I don't mean during the first two years, I mean during the third year when it becomes a combination of stamina, intelligence, diligence, knowledge, people skills, likability, and confidence which make you succeed. Oftentimes, adcoms have their own agendas in terms of who they want and it isn't always the most objective criteria, but I don't think it is something to cry about for premeds. You choose your own destiny, but it is helped by your pedigree and you have little control over that. Get over it and make the most out of what you got. Once you are in medical school, the playing field seems to even out much more. You need to be proactive about your life and career and make success happen for yourself rather than have anybody spoonfeed you the formula to becoming a good candidate for residency. If you are the real deal, the sky is the limit for you. By the way, I don't think more than 20% of my class is the real deal and I'm not sure about myself yet either.

Competition still exists, the culture of med school is far from "laid back" if you are comparing to any normal standard for what is laid back. It is a brutal, grueling grinder of a life. But you start to not feel like there is any other way to live and you laugh at your friends who think that working 50 hour weeks is a tough life. You can't relate to them sometimes and they ask you about med school and you just can't come up with statements that adequately capture what you are going through. So you bond with some classmates and have intense times together (and even more intense post exam parties). You abhor some of your classmates, and are in awe of the talent of others. You feel inadequate for the first time in your life because you just aren't as capable at doing something as someone else is and you've never felt that before. You learn how to stay up for 24 hours straight and it becomes kinda hard but not as ridiculous a notion as it was when you weren't doing it ever. You sometimes feel like its easy and other times wish you were an engineer with a house and a 401K living in the burbs and going to TGIFridays with your buddies for happy hour every night.

But at the end of the day you realize that it was worth it, you would never do it again, but you're glad that you got through it. You feel proud of yourself but remain totally humble that you aren't even close to being where you need to be to treat patients autonomously. And you realize that you just finished something tough but it isn't even close to as tough and stressful as your residency is. Then you feel anxious about getting through the next phase of your painful career choice. But, you're a doctor, nobody can take that away from you. You sign a lease in your new city and feel ecstatic when it asks you what your occupation is and you get to write for the first time...PHYSICIAN.

Best post ever.... should be made a sticky...
:thumbup:
 
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i61164 said:
:laugh: Still recovering from the Cinco De Mayo festivites? My boss actually had a talk with me about sleeping at my desk. He said it was embarrassing for him. Somehow I haven't been fired and even managed to get a decent raise and bonus this year. If only they would lay me off so I could draw unemployment wages while starting my first year of med school.

I have nothing to contribute, but I just wanted to tell you I love your signature :) I like old people and kids way better than most 'adults.'
 
dara678 said:
wow, how'd you manage to do that all at only 24?? that's amazing.

Whenever you find yourself asking somebody on the internet a question like that, the answer is that they're a bored high-school kid.
 
gujuDoc said:
[...] Its the same way as I look at freshmen in college taking genchm or some other freshmen course and complaining about it. You always want to tell them to get used to it because its just going to get harder and harder with each year,

I disagree quite completely with the notion of telling freshman it gets "harder as you go along." If they are dedicated enough, they will get passing marks in general chemistry, physics and biology and there minds will become slightly stronger in the sense that they can now expect to be studying material for hours, day after day. Those freshman year weedout courses strengthen a dedicated student such that no material during undergrad will be as challenging as the initial "breaking in the mold." I mean, what was organic chemistry? I remember being in general inorganic and all the sophomores telling me "Dude it just gets worse. O-Chem is terrible." But then you get there, and it's so much easier than that first round during freshman year because you are used to studying that hard. No material will intellectually challenge a med student once he/she is in (If you go into engineering, or engineering/physics graduate program, material will be presented that intellectually challenges you). Medical school is just a new "breaking into the mold" process where undergrad was training, and now you need to apply that as a method for your study tactics. But saying it gets "harder and harder" is just.. a discouraging way to talk down to those poor freshman who are trying to pass the weedout classes.
 
SocialistMD said:
You celebrate Cinco de Mayo in Cincinnati?

Cincinnati? :confused:

Give me any reason to celebrate. Cinco de Mayo, St. Patty's day, Oktoberfest...
 
i61164 said:
Cincinnati? :confused:

Give me any reason to celebrate. Cinco de Mayo, St. Patty's day, Oktoberfest...

That is "The Queen City," is it not?
 
SocialistMD said:
That is "The Queen City," is it not?

The Queen City that I live in is Charlotte, NC. I don't know about the 'Nati.
 
SocialistMD said:
That is "The Queen City," is it not?
yes, cincinnati is referred to as "the queen city". i can't remember why, though.
 
SocialistMD said:
You celebrate Cinco de Mayo in Cincinnati?

I always thought that Cinco de Mayo was celebrated everywhere, until Elysium was shocked that we celebrated it in Portland. We had a several-day festival, in fact.
 
superdevil said:
yes, cincinnati is referred to as "the queen city". i can't remember why, though.

Wow, so there's two queen cities. Charlotte has crowns on many of the street signs and we have postcards that say "The Queen City." Also, a lot of businesses use Queen in their names. Charlotte was named after Queen Charlotte, wife of King George III of England.
 
worriedwell's post rocks.

What I didn't do was think twice about the academic experience. I just thought, "I'm going to go learn some science, then it will be applied to how I learn to treat the patient."

Well, ahhh...mmmm let me just say that as someone who rode their IQ through a philosophy BA (with a ton of art and social work and language classes to boot), and also essentially did the same in their premed work- including the MCAT- this does not work in med school. You can't just sit around and be smart. It won't get you anywhere. Your smarts alone will not get you through. Your class will be filled (which I LOVE) with smart people. Smarts will get you in but not through. I promise. So what I am getting at here is that I had no idea how rigorous the course work would be- in that it's the volume, the volume baby, not the subject matter. Lucky for me, I was already working hard before I started. I just had to go through a period of adjustment, from working hard on my feet to working hard at studying (which I really never did compared to now).
On that note back to the books.....
 
worriedwell said:
By the way, I don't think more than 20% of my class is the real deal and I'm not sure about myself yet either.

Congratulations worriedwell on finishing med school and writing such a concise and analytical explanation. :thumbup:

Your post made me wonder what factors you would use in measuring "the real deal." Which qualities in your classmates make you identify them as "the real deal?"

Thanks.
 
mdsadler said:
Congratulations worriedwell on finishing med school and writing such a concise and analytical explanation. :thumbup:

Your post made me wonder what factors you would use in measuring "the real deal." Which qualities in your classmates make you identify them as "the real deal?"

Thanks.


Good question...sorry to say, I don't have a good answer. I think thats the irony (and beauty of it). I couldn't rattle off a uniform formula for determining who is "the real deal". Its probably a bit dramatic to even use the term and doesn't lend itself to any type of objective conversation. But I just see some colleagues work: intellectually with the subject matter, empathically (sp?) with patients, skillfully with procedures, confident in everything they do while remaining humble and able to take direction well. Those are some of the things that come to mind. But everybody has their own style of doing things, has their own strengths and weaknesses, so it defeats the purpose of trying to define it. Its just a manner of being that makes me think these people carry the torch, so to speak. And I think people who are the "real deal" with a particular skillset gravitate towards fields that utilize their skills. But, most importantly, it is about how they carry themselves as professionals and human beings. And the people that work with them respect them. I think that is the ultimate sign of being the real deal, that your colleagues, patients, teachers respect you.

Hope that helps, although I kinda just made that up on the spot. I'm satisfied with it though.

Best,
worriedwell
 
2nd best post ever...jk heheh
 
worriedwell said:
My perception as I approach graduating med school (and thus have lots of free time to offer sage advice to strangers) is that I have changed a lot in four years. I was very naive starting out. I tried giving some tours as a 4th year on interview days and I realized that I had a hard time relating to the interviewees. Whereas, when I was a first year, I totally bonded with all of the interviewees. Now, their questions seemed so unimportant. They were so curious about anatomy lab and transcipts and curriculum that I just felt like I wasn't that helpful to them because all of that stuff was so useless to me and any aspect of matching into a residency and finding a specialty career that you would be happy with. The first two years are such a distant blur, its unbelievable. They matter so little its almost as if they didn't even happen. Third year, working with patients, is etched in my head though. That was when med school really started. I feel weathered and older. I swear the number of gray hairs on my head has increased by about tenfold.

Let me qualify it by saying that I went straight from college to med school and I think my experience is somewhat different than someone who took 3 years off before school (which makes me wonder if it really is just the maturing that comes with aging that has contributed to my perceptions changing so much). 3rd year of clinical medicine is a big eye opener. You learn to value life, to respect death, and to never be surprised by the worst. You remember patients' faces that you treated 2 years ago but you don't "feel" for them the way their families do. You "feel" for them the way doctors do, in a weirdly professional, but real way.

I still, if not moreso, believe that it is an honor and a huge responsibility to be a doctor with expectations that far exceed almost any other occupation (except obvious ones like being the president). Its amazing that we are granted the ability, directly or indirectly, to subjectively make definitive decisions that are often morally in debate among the lay community. And our society doesn't agree on them, yet on a day to day basis, doctors wield their power to make these decisions based on their own value system. It is really amazing.

I also believe that there are some doctors that are significantly better than others at being doctors, like exponentially better, and its very obvious if you are on the doctor's side of the door, but very difficult to tell if you are the patient.

In terms of the pre-allo culture...I think people spend way too much time debating prestige and rankings and grades and checklist items for what makes them valuable as a candidate to be a doctor. I now realize that adcoms are a much wiser group than premeds and they usually have a decent idea of who is a stat stuffer and who is the real deal. By the way, there aren't enough "real deals" in my opinion to fill all of the medical schools. Thus, all med schools have a large proportion of stat stuffers. Sometimes, those stat stuffers turn out to be the real deal, but many times they do not.

I think its difficult to predict who will be able to thrive in med school and who won't. I don't mean during the first two years, I mean during the third year when it becomes a combination of stamina, intelligence, diligence, knowledge, people skills, likability, and confidence which make you succeed. Oftentimes, adcoms have their own agendas in terms of who they want and it isn't always the most objective criteria, but I don't think it is something to cry about for premeds. You choose your own destiny, but it is helped by your pedigree and you have little control over that. Get over it and make the most out of what you got. Once you are in medical school, the playing field seems to even out much more. You need to be proactive about your life and career and make success happen for yourself rather than have anybody spoonfeed you the formula to becoming a good candidate for residency. If you are the real deal, the sky is the limit for you. By the way, I don't think more than 20% of my class is the real deal and I'm not sure about myself yet either.

Competition still exists, the culture of med school is far from "laid back" if you are comparing to any normal standard for what is laid back. It is a brutal, grueling grinder of a life. But you start to not feel like there is any other way to live and you laugh at your friends who think that working 50 hour weeks is a tough life. You can't relate to them sometimes and they ask you about med school and you just can't come up with statements that adequately capture what you are going through. So you bond with some classmates and have intense times together (and even more intense post exam parties). You abhor some of your classmates, and are in awe of the talent of others. You feel inadequate for the first time in your life because you just aren't as capable at doing something as someone else is and you've never felt that before. You learn how to stay up for 24 hours straight and it becomes kinda hard but not as ridiculous a notion as it was when you weren't doing it ever. You sometimes feel like its easy and other times wish you were an engineer with a house and a 401K living in the burbs and going to TGIFridays with your buddies for happy hour every night.

But at the end of the day you realize that it was worth it, you would never do it again, but you're glad that you got through it. You feel proud of yourself but remain totally humble that you aren't even close to being where you need to be to treat patients autonomously. And you realize that you just finished something tough but it isn't even close to as tough and stressful as your residency is. Then you feel anxious about getting through the next phase of your painful career choice. But, you're a doctor, nobody can take that away from you. You sign a lease in your new city and feel ecstatic when it asks you what your occupation is and you get to write for the first time...PHYSICIAN.

awesome post!! thanks!! :thumbup:
 
I have a few weeks left of my first year but (and I'm going to very brief here and only read the first few posts, so forgive me if I repeat anything) is that at the begining of school, nearly eveyone seems excited to be here and get started. Especially the students who have wanted to be doctors "since first grade." I worked for a while after college and I think it hit people like me earlier, but by now it is nearly everyone. It has been such a rigorous and challenging year, you are just exhausted and want the summer to start. At the begining, everyone was trying to learn because we want to become doctors. At this point in time (and I think many first year students will agree), med school has lost that original, interesting, level of excitment. We just want first year to be done. the desire is still there, but really toned down. Like one of our profs joked the other day, at the begining of the year, you want to be doctors. At the end, you want to be second years." The "sexiness" is gone. Last summer, I didn't do anything academic/work related. I would highly advise all future med students to do the same. Travel, see family, friends, sleep in.
 
I also had an exam today, so that isn't helping my "excitement" level either. But I think it is like anything else, the initial excitement will wear off, but you will be glad you are here and realize what a great opportunity you have.
 
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