Preclinical Honors

[504196]

Hey everyone,

Started MS1 recently. Our first two preclinical years are honors/P/F for most classes.

I am just wondering how important preclinical honors are in relation to other aspects of your resume (boards, ECs, research, ect.)?

Not sure yet what I want to go into but am considering something competitive.

I also searched the forums and have a general idea to my question but am just looking for more input. Thanks!

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[operaman]

At the start of MS1: VERY important
In the end: by themselves, not very much

This is an important distinction that gets glossed over in threads like this that will inevitably extol the power of step 1 scores and clinical grades over everything else. Just remember that what you study the next 2 years is what's covered on step 1 and forms the knowledge base you will be expected to carry with you (not all of it, but a lot of it). There's a pervasive myth among med students that you can earn average class grades while scoring well above average on step 1. Yes, this can happen, but it's definitely the exception to the rule. If you're really thinking about something competitive, you would be well advised to give it your best and see where you land even if the actual grades you earn won't be that important in the end compared to other things. Your knowledge base will continue to help you down the road when it comes to step exams and shelf exams where the resulting scores are much more important.

 

[Entadus]

At the start of MS1: VERY important
In the end: by themselves, not very much

This is an important distinction that gets glossed over in threads like this that will inevitably extol the power of step 1 scores and clinical grades over everything else. Just remember that what you study the next 2 years is what's covered on step 1 and forms the knowledge base you will be expected to carry with you (not all of it, but a lot of it). There's a pervasive myth among med students that you can earn average class grades while scoring well above average on step 1. Yes, this can happen, but it's definitely the exception to the rule. If you're really thinking about something competitive, you would be well advised to give it your best and see where you land even if the actual grades you earn won't be that important in the end compared to other things. Your knowledge base will continue to help you down the road when it comes to step exams and shelf exams where the resulting scores are much more important.

I see what you're arguing here, but what do you think of a situation where the student makes solid passes in their first semester before really hitting their stride, and then improves their grades at the end of M1/start of M2? I feel like the difference between Honors and Pass in anatomy or biochem is less predictive of success in the match than grades in integrated system blocks that come later on...

 

[PhillyMed777]

At the start of MS1: VERY important
In the end: by themselves, not very much

This is an important distinction that gets glossed over in threads like this that will inevitably extol the power of step 1 scores and clinical grades over everything else. Just remember that what you study the next 2 years is what's covered on step 1 and forms the knowledge base you will be expected to carry with you (not all of it, but a lot of it). There's a pervasive myth among med students that you can earn average class grades while scoring well above average on step 1. Yes, this can happen, but it's definitely the exception to the rule. If you're really thinking about something competitive, you would be well advised to give it your best and see where you land even if the actual grades you earn won't be that important in the end compared to other things. Your knowledge base will continue to help you down the road when it comes to step exams and shelf exams where the resulting scores are much more important.

beautiful

 

[charmiedermie]

Hey everyone,

Started MS1 recently. Our first two preclinical years are honors/P/F for most classes.

I am just wondering how important preclinical honors are in relation to other aspects of your resume (boards, ECs, research, ect.)?

Not sure yet what I want to go into but am considering something competitive.

I also searched the forums and have a general idea to my question but am just looking for more input. Thanks!

If you're going for something competitive and need to go for AOA, then yes, they matter.

 

[PhillyMed777]

If you're going for something competitive and need to go for AOA, then yes, they matter.

I feel like its only a matter of time before "they" come and argue otherwise...haha.

 

[charmiedermie]

I feel like its only a matter of time before "they" come and argue otherwise...haha.

Yup, and it's always the same people. i think they do it on purpose.

 

[masaraksh]

Sometimes I am jealous of the P/F schools since I know that at my school the difference between P and H is massive. Very possible to put in "minimal" work (just showing up, some reviewing) and probably pass. An H seems to require consistent effort and some luck.

I guess the good thing about H/P/F is that its forcing me to work harder throughout the year. I think if I ended up at a P/F school I'd be much more screwed come step 1 time.

 

[PhillyMed777]

Sometimes I am jealous of the P/F schools since I know that at my school the difference between P and H is massive. Very possible to put in "minimal" work (just showing up, some reviewing) and probably pass. An H seems to require consistent effort and some luck.

I guess the good thing about H/P/F is that its forcing me to work harder throughout the year. I think if I ended up at a P/F school I'd be much more screwed come step 1 time.

Yeah i think i'll blow everyone's minds if I say i am happy my school is not P/F

 

[WedgeDawg]

On the other hand, I am so relieved I'm at a P/F school. We traditionally do well on step 1 anyway, but I just feel so much better know that as long as I get a P, I'll be able to move on and won't be affected in other ways. I feel sorry for our dental students who have H/P/F. Not that any of us are putting in anything less than our best, but it just takes some of the pressure and stress off.

 

[charmiedermie]

Sometimes I am jealous of the P/F schools since I know that at my school the difference between P and H is massive. Very possible to put in "minimal" work (just showing up, some reviewing) and probably pass. An H seems to require consistent effort and some luck.

I guess the good thing about H/P/F is that its forcing me to work harder throughout the year. I think if I ended up at a P/F school I'd be much more screwed come step 1 time.

The difference between Honors and Pass is massive, but not between Honors and High Pass.

 

[masaraksh]

The difference between Honors and Pass is massive, but not between Honors and High Pass.

True. Not all schools have a High Pass though.

 

[achamess]

This recent survey of residency directors should be illuminating to this discussion.

It depends on the field, but overall, honors in basic sciences seem to be very low on the hierarchy of selection criteria.

 

[masaraksh]

On the other hand, I am so relieved I'm at a P/F school. We traditionally do well on step 1 anyway, but I just feel so much better know that as long as I get a P, I'll be able to move on and won't be affected in other ways. I feel sorry for our dental students who have H/P/F. Not that any of us are putting in anything less than our best, but it just takes some of the pressure and stress off.

Yeah, thats why I sometimes wish it was P/F where I go.

However, all this stressing out also depends on what field you are looking to go into. I mean FM/Psych are classically easier to match so you shouldn't be stressed out if you're not getting honors rather than pass. Then there is the person I met over the summer from a top 10 ranked school, with a 260something taking a research yr off between 3rd and 4th because they want to match radiation oncology. Personally, I'm pushing myself for strong grades/step scores/research since I want to end up i) going to an academic rather than community residency and ii) being able to apply for residency in geographic areas I want to live in.

 

[operaman]

I see what you're arguing here, but what do you think of a situation where the student makes solid passes in their first semester before really hitting their stride, and then improves their grades at the end of M1/start of M2? I feel like the difference between Honors and Pass in anatomy or biochem is less predictive of success in the match than grades in integrated system blocks that come later on...

I think those students will probably do just fine; they probably represent the bulk of students with average pre-clinical grades who end up doing well on step 1.

I think the important distinction is that it's a lot more about mindset than it is actual numbers in the beginning. People who have not found their stride who buy in to the "preclinical grades don't matter" mindset may be content with their current performance and never actually find their stride. It's a message that gets lost sometimes amid the good advice given to 4th years when we say their below average pre-clinical grades don't matter much in comparison to their solid step 1 and good clinical grades. Much like the difference between retrospective and prospective studies, this advice doesn't really apply to someone at the outset whose solid step 1 hasn't actually happened yet.

 

[charmiedermie]

This recent survey of residency directors should be illuminating to this discussion.

It depends on the field, but overall, honors in basic sciences seem to be very low on the hierarchy of selection criteria.

That survey has been posted before, and its not illuminating, mainly because it keeps being misinterpreted and misread by med students to justify mediocre preclinical grades. SouthernSurgeon does a good job in explaining this.

 

[operaman]

This recent survey of residency directors should be illuminating to this discussion.

It depends on the field, but overall, honors in basic sciences seem to be very low on the hierarchy of selection criteria.

This is what I'm talking about when I say it matters little in retrospect compared to other things, but at the start of MS1 those "other things" are not set in stone yet and many of them will depend heavily on the knowledge base acquired during the basic science years. I would go so far as to argue that papers like this are important for MS4s, but absolutely irrelevant for MS1s. Perhaps we could look at it this way: of everything on that list of criteria, the basic science grades are the only item the OP will have for a few years, so relatively speaking it's the most important aspect of his ultimate application that he can control at this moment, to say nothing of how the knowledge base will impact his step scores and whatnot.

I've noticed an interesting cycle on this board over the past few years. There are always certain types of posts that pop up at certain times each year. Two that are important to highlight:

1) the "I just bombed X preclinical exam; do I still have a shot at derm/ent/ortho?"
and...
2) the "I just bombed step 1....freaking out!" thread

The responses to #1 will inevitably include advice that preclinical grades don't really matter much and to focus on step 1 which is where the money is. While there's a small, nuanced element of truth to this in some select cases, the majority of such people will unfortunately progress to #2. Contrary to prevailing sdn thought, below-average students will likely earn below-average step 1 scores. The responses to the #2 thread are much more sparse, typically saying to focus on clinicals and try to crush Step 2CK -- easier said than done.

I say this not to be morose, but to suggest that a better response to early struggles would be a full court press to figure out how to study better and maximize performance now rather than counting on acing tests and rotations that they probably will not ace without major long-term changes to their approach.

 

[Slack3r]

This recent survey of residency directors should be illuminating to this discussion.

It depends on the field, but overall, honors in basic sciences seem to be very low on the hierarchy of selection criteria.

As operaman said, preclinical grades do not exist in a vacuum. While preclinical grades themselves don't necessarily matter for much, AOA selection often hinges on preclinical grades (particularly for junior AOA). Additionally, as many have already said, strong preclinical performance is a pretty good predictor of step 1 performance.

So yes, while mediocre preclinical grades alone aren't a death knell, the subsequent lack of AOA membership and likely mediocre step 1 score certainly will be.

 

[TheRobin]

I see what you're arguing here, but what do you think of a situation where the student makes solid passes in their first semester before really hitting their stride, and then improves their grades at the end of M1/start of M2? I feel like the difference between Honors and Pass in anatomy or biochem is less predictive of success in the match than grades in integrated system blocks that come later on...

@22031 Alum posted a few months back about being truthful with yourself about where you stand. If you're putting in an honest-to-God work ethic and solidly passing each course at around the class average, then there's no shame in that. As operaman and slack3r note, the problem is when students think that they can simply mail it in for coursework and "focus" solely on Step in order to magically score 1 or 2 standard deviations above the mean.