pregnant

[Whodathunkit]

The women in my program "planned" their pregnancies. And planning them during intern year sucked for all of us. They took off the most difficult months of intern year, and who made up for us by the shift in extra call and patients that need to be seen in clinic(whether there are 3 or 4 residents there). We did. Did they make it up. No. It was considered Maternity Leave. After a while, I saw a pattern actually. Once, while invited to a baby shower, I saw the pregnant resident telling all the other residents that they should all really have their kids during residency. It was a win-win situation. 1. Even if they did have them make up the time, it would be during senior year. And I'm sorry...a senior year outpatient no-call rotation does NOT equal an intern year overnight call rotation. 2. Taking time off during residency alleviates you taking time off when you get a job, when productivity matters most which equals more cash. The end result. Almost every girl was pregnant within 2 years, and 2 residents had kids twice. One graduated on time(I guess she gave up her personal vacation and used it in addition to the maternity leave), one spent an extra 2 weeks in residency(outpatient rotation).

Saying F^ck You to your class while you silently stare them down really creates sense of comradery...I commend you and recommend everyone do that to everyone in their programs. F^ck Residency Cohesiveness I say. I'd like to see you say that to your partners in your practice...

And yes, single people get screwed....constantly....whether it's the paternity call, maternity call, "my baby is sick" coverage. Sure we don't know what it's like to have kids and the responsibility it entails. But YOU chose that. Much like how the medical residents complain about how much they have in loans and the PA simply stares at them and says "Hey...you chose that field."

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[Poety]

The women in my program "planned" their pregnancies. And planning them during intern year sucked for all of us. They took off the most difficult months of intern year, and who made up for us by the shift in extra call and patients that need to be seen in clinic(whether there are 3 or 4 residents there). We did. Did they make it up. No. It was considered Maternity Leave. After a while, I saw a pattern actually. Once, while invited to a baby shower, I saw the pregnant resident telling all the other residents that they should all really have their kids during residency. It was a win-win situation. 1. Even if they did have them make up the time, it would be during senior year. And I'm sorry...a senior year outpatient no-call rotation does NOT equal an intern year overnight call rotation. 2. Taking time off during residency alleviates you taking time off when you get a job, when productivity matters most which equals more cash. The end result. Almost every girl was pregnant within 2 years, and 2 residents had kids twice. One graduated on time(I guess she gave up her personal vacation and used it in addition to the maternity leave), one spent an extra 2 weeks in residency(outpatient rotation).

Saying F^ck You to your class while you silently stare them down really creates sense of comradery...I commend you and recommend everyone do that to everyone in their programs. F^ck Residency Cohesiveness I say. I'd like to see you say that to your partners in your practice...

And yes, single people get screwed....constantly....whether it's the paternity call, maternity call, "my baby is sick" coverage. Sure we don't know what it's like to have kids and the responsibility it entails. But YOU chose that. Much like how the medical residents complain about how much they have in loans and the PA simply stares at them and says "Hey...you chose that field."

What about your male counterparts that planned for their wives to get pregnant? Or the ones that ride motorcycles and subsequently got in an accident and had to miss time - or the one that decided to take a leave for whatever reason - what do you say to them?

You're right - you don't know what its like to have kids - so until you do, keep your judgements to yourself.

The self righteousness is sickening, ironically - you'll be the one who needs someone to cover for you someday - and you'll see exactly how it feels. What comes around -----> bites you in the butt for opening your mouth.

 

[Whodathunkit]

It's nothing about self-righteousness...it's about people who have kids expecting people to accomodate them and not expecting others to be slightly annoyed with it.

 

[Runtita]

It's nothing about self-righteousness...it's about people who have kids expecting people to accomodate them and not expecting others to be slightly annoyed with it.

Hmm.

There's no way around this. People are going to have kids. Other people are going to get pissed at having to "cover" for them. If people stop having kids, we will run out of people. No people, no problems, no worries.

Really- whatever happened to "what comes around, goes around"? I need help, you help. You need help, I help. We all succeed BECAUSE we cover each other's butts.

Childless or not, you will need help sometime. Respect your coworkers and they will cover for you, if not happily, then at least understandingly. Treat your fellows like crap and they will b!tch about having to cover for you.

You reap what you sow.

Now play nice, people!

 

[robotsonic]

There's no way around this. People are going to have kids. Other people are going to get pissed at having to "cover" for them. If people stop having kids, we will run out of people.

You say this as if babies just pop out unexpectedly. Come on now. You don't just get pregnant unexpectedly and even if you do, you've got plenty of advanced warning.

The times when it is hardest on your fellow residents are during early residency, like intern year and PGY2 (I'm guessing it would be easier as a senior resident, but maybe not). The majority of people can delay having a baby by two years and have no adverse consequences, so please don't tell me that everyone's clock is ticking and they need to have babies now now now!

The argument that we should accommodate pregnant interns because we might need accommodation for an unexpected situation someday is weak, because the situations are not comparable. Pregnancy is PLANNED! Babies do not fall out of the sky! Needing accommodation because of a family emergency (like a sick child) is a different story, and of course you should expect accommodation.

Anyway, I'm sure that in the situation I would accommodate a fellow intern who was pregnant, but at least I would be able to vent my frustrations anonymously online

 

[orientedtoself]

The times when it is hardest on your fellow residents are during early residency, like intern year and PGY2 (I'm guessing it would be easier as a senior resident, but maybe not). The majority of people can delay having a baby by two years and have no adverse consequences, so please don't tell me that everyone's clock is ticking and they need to have babies now now now!

robotsonic,
Based on your other posts, you are applying for surgery. When are you planning on having a family? There is no good time. You are looking at five years of residency +/- 2 years of fellowship. Do you really want to wait until you're 32 to have your first child? I'm applying to IM, and I'd like to have a child 2nd or 3rd year. I personally wouldn't have a child intern year, but you can't always plan for everything, and I would definitely support a pregnant co-intern.

 

[robotsonic]

robotsonic,
Based on your other posts, you are applying for surgery. When are you planning on having a family? There is no good time. You are looking at five years of residency +/- 2 years of fellowship. Do you really want to wait until you're 32 to have your first child? I'm applying to IM, and I'd like to have a child 2nd or 3rd year. I personally wouldn't have a child intern year, but you can't always plan for everything, and I would definitely support a pregnant co-intern.

Since you asked... I'm planning on taking a year or two off for research after PGY3 and having the baby then. That way, I will have more free time with my baby (I will still be in the lab, but will definitely have more time than I would on the wards), and it will not adversely affect the other residents. I actually can't really understand why someone would even want to have a baby during intern year.

 

[svaefinga]

You don't just get pregnant unexpectedly and even if you do, you've got plenty of advanced warning.

And what should be the conclusion? Knowing about being pregnant for up to 40 weeks doesn't change anything about being pregnant. Well, normally.

 

[LADoc00]

You all arent seeing the silver lining here.

A program with numerous residents who go out on maternity or for health reasons etc. presents you as a mere resident a golden opportunity to seriously bend over your program director. Apply to transfer, make noise about leaving, then ask for presitigious fellowship slots, extra vacation time, more $$$(this should be a given if you are taking extra call), maybe a paid trip to a conference in Hawaii, maybe pre-written letters of recommendation for jobs, if a department is bent over enough, the skyyyy is the limit folks! I would go so far as to retaining a solid attorney.

This happened to me in my last year of training, I negotiated for: afternoons a certain of days completely off, a free conference out of the country and 6 extra weeks of vacation. My buddy got some fairly large undisclosed cash payout.

And you are absolutely right about this nonsense not occurring in the real world, unless you work for an HMO, your partners will definitely show you the door or dump you from partnership track(more likely) the moment they realize the situation.

 

[orientedtoself]

And you are absolutely right about this nonsense not occurring in the real world, unless you work for an HMO, your partners will definitely show you the door or dump you from partnership track(more likely) the moment they realize the situation.

Not necessarily. You can pick your practice- pick one that has women with kids in it, and hopefully they will be understanding.

 

[LADoc00]

Not necessarily. You can pick your practice- pick one that has women with kids in it, and hopefully they will be understanding.

Yeah, usually that is a HMO-type set up or a big county hospital, which is fine. But Im sure small, high flying private groups, where their big incomes are matched by heavy loads, wont. Also depends on speciality. I can say I have heard in numerous interviews that they dont look at apps from married WoCAs (women of childbearing age), which I agree is messed up, but the reality of modern medicine (super high patient volume to make up for the low comp per patient/procedure) is undeniable. Im not saying this fair or not, just that it is.

 

[orientedtoself]

I can say I have heard in numerous interviews that they dont look at apps from married WoCAs (women of childbearing age), which I agree is messed up, but the reality of modern medicine (super high patient volume to make up for the low comp per patient/procedure) is undeniable. Im not saying this fair or not, just that it is.

I can't believe this is occurring in this day and age. Maybe those good ole boys will wake up when they realize they are throwing away half of their applications for no good reason. Or maybe they will realize their folly when they are taken care of by a female resident when they are old, gray, and sick. Or maybe they will never change their ways. LADoc, when you are established in your practice, I hope you won't do that kind of thing.

 

[LADoc00]

I can't believe this is occurring in this day and age. Maybe those good ole boys will wake up when they realize they are throwing away half of their applications for no good reason. Or maybe they will realize their folly when they are taken care of by a female resident when they are old, gray, and sick. Or maybe they will never change their ways. LADoc, when you are established in your practice, I hope you won't do that kind of thing.

I am somewhat established tho in transition right now. I will say I was almost (sigh) in a position to go into a private prac setting with a girlfriend, who is also in my field, with the idea I would be able to pick up her slack if we got married and had kids. I personally love women. Maybe a tad too much tho.

I propose to one group hiring a cute female partner track doc would be a huge PR boost, but it definitely did not get met with enthusiasm.

 

[orientedtoself]

Have you thought about being a house husband? I'm guessing you and your s.o. have discussed things. But in general, why do people assume that in a two career household, the woman will take the hit on the career? I don't have answers and I haven't figured out how my life will look 10 years from now, but I am open to creative solutions. Like I said before, with women in the workplace, I think that gender roles need revision.

 

[robotsonic]

I can say I have heard in numerous interviews that they dont look at apps from married WoCAs (women of childbearing age), which I agree is messed up, but the reality of modern medicine (super high patient volume to make up for the low comp per patient/procedure) is undeniable.

Wow. This is going way too far.

I'm fortunate in that I haven't encountered the "good ole boys' club" mentality. I guess it is still going strong in some places, though

 

[robotsonic]

Have you thought about being a house husband? I'm guessing you and your s.o. have discussed things. But in general, why do people assume that in a two career household, the woman will take the hit on the career? I don't have answers and I haven't figured out how my life will look 10 years from now, but I am open to creative solutions. Like I said before, with women in the workplace, I think that gender roles need revision.

I agree. I don't think I would be able to talk my husband into being a househusband, but I'm pretty sure he is going to be good about sharing responsibilities (he is now anyway )

 

[kassie]

I thought about 50% of pregnancies were unplanned. The only surefire way to prevent a baby is not having sex. And planning a pregnancy isn't a timed kind of event. I hardly know anyone that hasn't had a lot of trouble when they planned.

Life happens, people (including the invincible resident) get sick. Parents get sick and die. People get in accidents. We just have to adjust to this stuff. We're not robots for pete's sake.

People having babies have to fight people who think they suck no matter when they do it. And it doesn't end there. The criticism about how your raise your kids is probably going to be worse. Get a thick skin and take people's call before the baby arrives and do whatever you can to make life go better for them before the arrival of the little one. When you're much older and need help you'll be happy you put up with other people's BS to have a child to help take care of you.

Would you rather have the pregnant resident leave for an entire year and then start where they left off? I don't think so, it would make more work for you for a longer period of time.

good luck and congrats on the future baby!

 

[GoofyDoc]

The women in my program "planned" their pregnancies. And planning them during intern year sucked for all of us. They took off the most difficult months of intern year, and who made up for us by the shift in extra call and patients that need to be seen in clinic(whether there are 3 or 4 residents there). We did. Did they make it up. No. It was considered Maternity Leave. After a while, I saw a pattern actually. Once, while invited to a baby shower, I saw the pregnant resident telling all the other residents that they should all really have their kids during residency. It was a win-win situation. 1. Even if they did have them make up the time, it would be during senior year. And I'm sorry...a senior year outpatient no-call rotation does NOT equal an intern year overnight call rotation. 2. Taking time off during residency alleviates you taking time off when you get a job, when productivity matters most which equals more cash. The end result. Almost every girl was pregnant within 2 years, and 2 residents had kids twice. One graduated on time(I guess she gave up her personal vacation and used it in addition to the maternity leave), one spent an extra 2 weeks in residency(outpatient rotation).

Saying F^ck You to your class while you silently stare them down really creates sense of comradery...I commend you and recommend everyone do that to everyone in their programs. F^ck Residency Cohesiveness I say. I'd like to see you say that to your partners in your practice...

And yes, single people get screwed....constantly....whether it's the paternity call, maternity call, "my baby is sick" coverage. Sure we don't know what it's like to have kids and the responsibility it entails. But YOU chose that. Much like how the medical residents complain about how much they have in loans and the PA simply stares at them and says "Hey...you chose that field."

Intern year is not the best of times obviously to have a child. Even for the pregnant intern, it's no walk in the park. Ideally, it should be put off till later. But when it does happen during intern year, there should be plenty of time to plan maternity leave to take place during a benign rotation. I would think most women don't even need more than 4-6 weeks leave, which would mostly be covered by vacation time. As far as the resident telling the others to have children during residency, you make that sound like an evil conspiracy. The bottom line is that childbearing will always be looked upon negatively. Suppose I wait until after I finish my 4 years of residency. Ok, what if I do a fellowship? Ok, put it off another 2-3 years. What about as a junior attending? Not a good time either. There is never a perfect time to have a child. I'm sorry you feel you're getting screwed as a single person. Married with and w/o kids get screwed, too. I took 3 years off after graduating med school to get married and start a family to take that pressure off when I start residency, but you know what? I have been received negatively at almost every residency interview I've had so far because of that. So just grow a thick skin and do what's right for YOU.

 

[3dtp]

Also, I'd like to take the sexual politics out ot this thread. i believe I've read that men take as much sick time as women do (incuding maternity leave). For male residents I believe it's accidents and time in substance abuse programs.

Pregnancy is PLANNED! Babies do not fall out of the sky!

Of course not! But are they planned? Are you sure they're not started by stoned drunken motorcycle males who are post closed head injury taking sick time to get nookie?

...sorry...couldn't resist, now I'll take my lumps

Now, I will go write on the blackboard 100 times...

 

[Ergo]

robotsonic,
Based on your other posts, you are applying for surgery. When are you planning on having a family? There is no good time. You are looking at five years of residency +/- 2 years of fellowship. Do you really want to wait until you're 32 to have your first child? I'm applying to IM, and I'd like to have a child 2nd or 3rd year. I personally wouldn't have a child intern year, but you can't always plan for everything, and I would definitely support a pregnant co-intern.

If it was only 32 that some residents have to wait for it would be no big deal.
32 isnt old for a first child. People in surgical fields often must wait into their late 30's, when reliable conception really does get dicey.

 

[earwig]

1). What makes you think that your child WILL take care of you when you are old? It is not guaranteed, and I have seen many examples of "dumped" parents. Yes, you can raise a good child but you have to sacrifice your professional life to give a quality upbringing, not just merely attending to the child's needs. You may end up sharing a nursing home room with your childless friends while your child is away in another state or busy with his/her own life.
Having a child because you want somebody to take care of you is a WRONG REASON. The RIGHT REASON is your desire to share your love and to sacrifice for your child (meaning career, hobbies, time, energy, etc.)

2) Who said that residents and doctors without children do not have balanced life? They read more, have more cultural opportunities and have interesting HOBBIES. They travel and have more interesting life.

 

[Poety]

Umm earwig - you seriously don't know what you're talking about with "single" residents having more of a life - I highly doubt you do ONE of my hobbies, which when my child is older I will readily go back to (7 mos to go YEAH!).

Easy on the judging people with kids thing - my God what do you think? We waste away and die in a hermit hole never to come out and "Live interesting lives" again?

And as for a child taking care of you - who said that? I pray everyday that nothing happens to my child because I want her to be successful, happy, loving and knowledgeable. Why would I want her to take care of me? Thats ridiculous, God blessed me with her so that I can nurture HER its not the other way around.

 

[kassie]

Relax. Obviously that's not the only reason but just one of the ones people don't think about. And they don't need to take care of you physically, but just have an ear for you or not even that much. I am plenty busy and my mom constantly says how she is happy to have us, including her stepson who doesn't even call more than twice a year. She lives alone and is happy as a clam.

I myself probably won't have kids. I'm plently happy with my better half and my pets. Don't have kids if you don't want to - no one will think anything bad. But don't NOT have kids because you think people will look down on you.

1). What makes you think that your child WILL take care of you when you are old? It is not guaranteed, and I have seen many examples of "dumped" parents. Yes, you can raise a good child but you have to sacrifice your professional life to give a quality upbringing, not just merely attending to the child's needs. You may end up sharing a nursing home room with your childless friends while your child is away in another state or busy with his/her own life.
Having a child because you want somebody to take care of you is a WRONG REASON. The RIGHT REASON is your desire to share your love and to sacrifice for your child (meaning career, hobbies, time, energy, etc.)

2) Who said that residents and doctors without children do not have balanced life? They read more, have more cultural opportunities and have interesting HOBBIES. They travel and have more interesting life.

 

[carol ann]

sounds like it's a little too late for that!

regardless of your field of work (medicine, law, education, business, etc), you will generally screw over your coworkers when you take an extended leave, whether it be for maternity leave or other reasons. personally, i think one could always come up with a reason to postpone having a baby (especially as a resident), and sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and get on with your life. congratulations.

I would recommend that ALL WOMEN look at the maternity leave policy of any and all residency programs prior to applying. Obviously you don't want to beg for the information on the interview trail, but most larger programs have official policies that you can find on the internet.

If a program policy does not seem well conceived, reconsider the program because LIFE HAPPENS, accidents happen, and not everyone feels comfortable with having an abortion to avoid inconveniencing their coworkers. And as an intern right now, I would have no problem getting pulled to cover for someone who needed maternity or paternity leave, or family leave to help with an illness. An intern class is a family and if you care for your family, they will take care of you too.

 

[3dtp]

I would recommend that ALL WOMEN look at the maternity leave policy of any and all residency programs prior to applying. Obviously you don't want to beg for the information on the interview trail, but most larger programs have official policies that you can find on the internet.

If a program policy does not seem well conceived, reconsider the program because LIFE HAPPENS, accidents happen, and not everyone feels comfortable with having an abortion to avoid inconveniencing their coworkers. And as an intern right now, I would have no problem getting pulled to cover for someone who needed maternity or paternity leave, or family leave to help with an illness. An intern class is a family and if you care for your family, they will take care of you too.

Some programs may make this difficult. I covered for a paternity leave at my program which gave a whopping 3 days leave to the expectant father, (FMLA apparently didn't apply). I picked up a bunch of extra time to help out with the understanding I'd be covered for a (as in one) day off for my brother's wedding. All was arranged when a chief in my very malignant sweatshop program advised me that "there are no paybacks intern year and if you don't show up for work as scheduled we'll fire you."

The contract provided for 15 days of vacation, but buried in the language, was a statement that said vacation could only be taken in outpatient months and must be taken 7 days (including weekends when one didn't ordinarily work in outpatient months) at a time, reducing the effective vacation to 2 weeks.

That's one of the reasons FRIEDA went from "days of vacation" to weeks of vacation in its listings because of horse manure like this from the PDs. Another scam is to tell people they have 3 weeks, then say that one of the weeks is a terminal week scheduled at the end of the residency, but not guaranteed and must be approved. With a clause saying vacation not used in the year don't carry over, this is a ripe clause for abuse by a malignant program or a program that pads its FRIEDA data to look better than it is.

NRMP has required programs to publish their contracts prior to interview so you can look at them. This helps not one bit. Many contracts incorporate other documents by reference that are not given to prospective residents and are not published until too late. These contracts have clauses like "adhere to the policies of the Graduate Medical Education Office" or "adhere to established practices of the institution." or some similar wording.

Other clauses may also be worrisome, such as undefined or nebulously defined terms such as "satisfactory performance" like "employment under this contract is expressly conditional on satisfactory performance in accordance with institutional policies." This wording incorporates policies that you may never see until they are used against you. Or a clause like, "duties must be performed in strict accordance with the policies and procedures of the institution."

I'd pay attention to each and every word and if there are "policies" "procedures" or documents referred to in the contract, as "express" provisions, you may get bit in the butt by them. In setting your ROL, look at these clauses, because you'll be stuck with them or shafted by them as the case may be.

 

[earwig]

Umm earwig - you seriously don't know what you're talking about with "single" residents having more of a life - I highly doubt you do ONE of my hobbies, which when my child is older I will readily go back to (7 mos to go YEAH!).

Easy on the judging people with kids thing - my God what do you think? We waste away and die in a hermit hole never to come out and "Live interesting lives" again?

And as for a child taking care of you - who said that? I pray everyday that nothing happens to my child because I want her to be successful, happy, loving and knowledgeable. Why would I want her to take care of me? Thats ridiculous, God blessed me with her so that I can nurture HER its not the other way around.

I don't need your hypothetical hobbies, I have my own (very interesting ones) and have an opportunity to do it whenever I can and want. I observed many of my friends and patients who have babies. They become so preoccupied with child care that it is hard to engage them into conversation about anything else. For many years their world revolves around the child's interests. I DO NOT view it as a negative.Some people have reproductive instincts, and others don't.

I have plenty of childless couples among my friends to share my hobbies and conversations with and to enjoy their company.

It is wonderful that you love your child but your reaction is too emotional.
I understand, it is hard to be rational when you are so involved with house
life.

 

[Poety]

yeah, thats it - hypothetical hobbies I'll see ya at the DZ ok?

 

[blocks]

That may be true, but I find it interesting that while the OP is unconcerned about how her choices affect her colleagues, she is VERY concerned about how it will affect her own progress...note that the original question is how to take maternity leave without having to repeat rotations.

So its OK to have co-interns lose their personal time to cover for your maternity leave, but when your maternity leave makes it necessary to extend your residency, then there's a problem?

Bravo! sometimes you just can't wait 8 years (thru med school and most residencies) to wait to have kids. plus, sometimes $hit happens. if your fellow residents have to pick up the slack, it's not your colleague's fault, it's a fault in the system.