Prematch offers, how/when are they offered?

[drp53]

I was curious to when PDs offer you these positions. Just during/after your personal interview? during the interview with the PD? They ask you after lunch? Do they wait couple of weeks and then they call you over the phone or send you an email? Somebody said around December? Any input would be apprecaited?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Top Gun]

As a matter of fact, at my first interview, the program director mentioned that prematches are offered in December for that particular residency. The reason for this, he said, was to give applicants a chance to interview at various programs before deciding whether or not they wanted to accept the prematch deal. So some programs may wait till December (or maybe longer) to offer a prematch deal. Others may offer it right away.

 

[icare4u]

Forgive for me for sounding dumb...but pre-matches in what? Are there pre-match offers for surgery?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Forgive for me for sounding dumb...but pre-matches in what? Are there pre-match offers for surgery?

pre-matches or offers outside of the match can be had in any field. Surgery is no exception.

However, only Independent candidates (ie, FMGs/IMGs, DOs and graduated physicians) are eligible to sign outside of the match.

 

[PMR2008]

Dr. Cox what do you think is the best way to approach a program to see if they would offer me a prematch position(I am a osteopathic student)? Are the programs allowed to ask a applicant if they want to prematch? One of the programs I interviewed at told me to let them know If I want to come there because they are very interested in me but I just dont know how to approach them or any other program for that matter.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I can see no regulations in the NRMP which prevents programs asking candidates if they are interested in a pre-match contract; nor is there any restrictions on candidates from asking.

If you are seriously interested in a program and they have told you the same, I suggest you call or write the PD, express your interest, make mention of the fact that as an Independent DO candidate you are available for a pre-match contract (if that is what you want). You guys make it sound like junior high and wondering if someone else likes you; its OK to tell them you feel the same way, its even ok to say those 3 little words FIRST!

Bear in mind that not all programs offer contracts outside of the match as the NRMP does require them to offer 75% of their positions in the match. Also do not drop out of the match until you get a signed contract from a program that offers you one.

 

[c5a]

dr cox,

i did not know that 75% of the positions had to go through the normal match. this has been a source of some concern for me because i'm interviewing at 10+ places, and i'm wondering if a place has 10 spots, but prematches 9 of them, there is only 1 normal match spot. if a good number of programs do this, it kinda negates the purpose of the entire match process. for example (and i'll even name the program, texas tech el paso, IM), this program says that they fill most their spots by prematch. then aren't they going against the NRMP rules?

or in other words, why even interview at a place that goes mostly through prematching, when if offered a prematch, you wouldn't accept anyway?

 

[mmag]

I was interviewing at a medicine program which had a lot of IMG applicants. The resident giving us the tour asked the group at the end of tour (before the interviews) who would be interested in a pre-match position. The information was then relayed to the program director and people were signing contracts right after the interviews were finished.

 

[MacGyver]

However, only Independent candidates (ie, FMGs/IMGs, DOs and graduated physicians) are eligible to sign outside of the match.

That really ****in pisses me off. I can understand graduated physicians, but DOs and FMGs should NOT have that kind of advantage over US grads. DOs have their own freaking match and they still get this kinda BS advantage over MD applicants?

I know, I know, here come all the posts about "you suck if you have to compete with FMGs or DOs for a residency slot."

Its the principle of the thing that irritates me, not the outcome.

 

[rechaim]

That really ****in pisses me off. I can understand graduated physicians, but DOs and FMGs should NOT have that kind of advantage over US grads. DOs have their own freaking match and they still get this kinda BS advantage over MD applicants?

I know, I know, here come all the posts about "you suck if you have to compete with FMGs or DOs for a residency slot."

Its the principle of the thing that irritates me, not the outcome.

 

[Narcan1]

That really ****in pisses me off. I can understand graduated physicians, but DOs and FMGs should NOT have that kind of advantage over US grads. DOs have their own freaking match and they still get this kinda BS advantage over MD applicants?

I know, I know, here come all the posts about "you suck if you have to compete with FMGs or DOs for a residency slot."

Its the principle of the thing that irritates me, not the outcome.

Many times we are pre-matching where you would not want to go anyway.

 

[starwisher]

That really ****in pisses me off. I can understand graduated physicians, but DOs and FMGs should NOT have that kind of advantage over US grads. DOs have their own freaking match and they still get this kinda BS advantage over MD applicants?

I know, I know, here come all the posts about "you suck if you have to compete with FMGs or DOs for a residency slot."

Its the principle of the thing that irritates me, not the outcome.

I don't neccessary agree with the tone of MacGyver's post, but I didn't know people could prematch until I saw this thread, and I don't really think it is logical to have an option of prematching for certain types of candidates when everyone else has to go through the match and hope for the best. Basically it must be insurance against not filling in the match and having to scramble, but if they are afraid of not filling they should just rank more candidates then they think they need.

 

[icare4u]

Many times we are pre-matching where you would not want to go anyway.

You can't really say that unless there are no M.D.'s that applied to that program. I could understand if there were none, but the whole process just seems VERY unfair. Why are the rules for the match for some and not for others? And if D.O.'s are equal, why do they NEED this advantage?

 

[Winged Scapula]

dr cox,

i did not know that 75% of the positions had to go through the normal match. this has been a source of some concern for me because i'm interviewing at 10+ places, and i'm wondering if a place has 10 spots, but prematches 9 of them, there is only 1 normal match spot. if a good number of programs do this, it kinda negates the purpose of the entire match process. for example (and i'll even name the program, texas tech el paso, IM), this program says that they fill most their spots by prematch. then aren't they going against the NRMP rules?

Only if they (ie, the institution) are participating programs in the NRMP and do not fill 75% of their positions in the match. Thus a big place, with lots of residencies, can make 75% even if a particular program within the hospital system heavily pre-matches. It is an institutional agreement, not a departmental agreement.

or in other words, why even interview at a place that goes mostly through prematching, when if offered a prematch, you wouldn't accept anyway?

True. Most places that offer a lot of pre-matches have a history of not doing well in the match...for whatever reason. It begs the question of why you are interviewing at a place you wouldn't consider accepting a pre-match offer from unless the reason for refusal is simply because you wish to evaluate other programs.

 

[c5a]

well i guess if it ranks 6 or 7 on my list, it is still somewhat important to me. but you're right, a program that heavily prematches is a turnoff for me.

 

[buckley]

Hmmm...well, I agree it can seem as an unfair advantage from your point of view, but it can also be a disadvantage. Supposed you have fallen in love with a particular program A, but program B offers you a prematch. You dont "mind" going to program B if you don't match in program A, but you are now in a dilemma. Because if you dont accept program B's offer, it's clearly a statement to them that they are not your number one and they might not rank you highly anymore, or may not even rank you at all.
And, as Narcan points out, if you will check the uber gorgeous programs, US MDs still have their first pick. So there's no ned to get th bp levels up. The IMGs you see there are little god-like creatures who certainly have earned their way. I remember when I was interviewing, I was with this applicant who turned out to be some world-renowned expert on nerve conduction of a particular sensory organ. She's applying to residency here so she can continue practicing clinical medicine for her research work here. The faculty was ga-ga to shake her hand. Very interesting!

 

[Flintstone]

Just want to clarify several points regarding DOs in the match.

As far as I understand, most DOs participate in the NRMP match because osteopathic residencies are very limited especially in the variety of specialties. Almost all DO grads who apply for allopathic residencies participate in the NRMP match (if otherwise, they will be limited to programs who only hire through pre-match or outside of match). That means, they are not allowed to accept pre-match offers.

I am quite confused as to why most published articles on MATCH data/stats list DOs grads under the independent/other category. This not exactly ture considering that once they join the NRMP match, they are regulated by the same rules as other US allopathic grads.

Also, the match day for osteopathic residency is 1/2 - 1 month before the NRMP match day. For those DOs who match successfully via osteopathic match, they will be automatically withdrawn from the NRMP match, thus freeing up spots.

I hope I am interpreting this right. Pls correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Just want to clarify several points regarding DOs in the match.

As far as I understand, most DOs participate in the NRMP match because osteopathic residencies are very limited especially in the variety of specialties. Almost all DO grads who apply for allopathic residencies participate in the NRMP match (if otherwise, they will be limited to programs who only hire through pre-match or outside of match). That means, they are not allowed to accept pre-match offers.

I am quite confused as to why most published articles on MATCH data/stats list DOs grads under the independent/other category. This not exactly ture considering that once they join the NRMP match, they are regulated by the same rules as other US allopathic grads.

Also, the match day for osteopathic residency is 1/2 - 1 month before the NRMP match day. For those DOs who match successfully via osteopathic match, they will be automatically withdrawn from the NRMP match, thus freeing up spots.

I hope I am interpreting this right. Pls correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks.

You are incorrect. DO's and IMG's are free to participate in the match (as long as they meet the criteria for doing so) but are not forced to use the match, so they are allowed to sign outside the match (a prematch agreement). They ar eboth independent applicants, as are Allo MD's who have already graduated.

You are correct that DO's that participate in the AOA match can register for the NRMP but are automatically withdrawn if they match.

 

[GEEBEE]

I was just curious...

has anybody actually had a pre-match offer in surgery either this year or in years gone by? Who offered it to you, when and did you take it?

GB

 

[jp2009]

hello all.
can someone give me more feedback regarding the prematch. do i just keep on contacting programs to see if they offer them?
thanks.

 

[Doowai]

It begs the question of why you are interviewing at a place you wouldn't consider accepting a pre-match offer from unless the reason for refusal is simply because you wish to evaluate other programs.

I was offered a prematch at a place that was #2 on my list on paper. But when I interviewed there I just found it hard to like the people I met. I seriously had to daydream like Homer Simpson of chocolate and other things to keep a smile on my face while talking to them. If I had been offered it when I had just looked at the programs on paper I would have jumped at it. After meeting everyone I did not jump at it. I am going back for a second look,because the day I interviewed I had a poor night of sleep, it was very bad weather that day, I did not get breakfast (probably the only day in my life that I have not eaten breakfast), and I had no coffee that day - so maybe my mindset was wrong. But a person can apply to a program based on how it looks on paper, but once they are actually there it may look much different.

THe program that looked the worst on paper to me is now my number 1 program after visiting there. I really liked the people, and it pays about $10,000 more a year in benefits than it looked on paper (housing benefit, year end cash bonus which is not mentioned on the website). The hospital and facilities are tops (top 200 in the country). Has its own procedure building for the program, does alot of procedures like vasectomies. It went from being my warm-up interview program to being top on my list right now.

So its funny, when you apply to programs you have one impression and on your visit it may look entirely different. WHAT SCARES ME, IS THAT DURING RESIDENCY IT MAY STILL LOOK AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT WAY. Its like meeting a girl the first time, dating her and then marrying her. Man I remember this girl I dated in Phoenix before getting engaged to my wife. Oh man, my heart almost stopped beating when I first saw her. I was so excited by her. I took it very slow with her, but the sexual tension was immense - probably the most I have ever felt. But when I first kissed her, it was a major dissappointment. I am not sure what it was but it ruined the feeling. I stopped seeing her very shortly after that. Up close things may look different.

Also, we are talking FMG's (like myself). Some of us may be familiar with the saying beggars can't be choosers. I did not apply to every FP program I could, but I applied to something like 50-60 in a specialty. And that was to get a dozen interviews in that specialty. So some of us may apply to places that are places we can probably tolerate for a few years , while hoping to get some place more appealing.

 

[Winged Scapula]

The above is the whole reason for interviewing - both candidates and programs can be very different in person than they are "on paper" (just like potential dates). And unfortunately, once you start working someplace it may be very different than what you saw on interview day.

My comment (which was quoted) was based on another above which spoke about interviewing at programs you *wouldn't* consider matching to. Its one thing to have a program low on your list and interview there, but if you KNOW you wouldn't want to live/work etc. there, then why bother even going for an interview (which was my question to the OP)?

 

[voltron77]

The above is the whole reason for interviewing - both candidates and programs can be very different in person than they are "on paper" (just like potential dates). And unfortunately, once you start working someplace it may be very different than what you saw on interview day.

My comment (which was quoted) was based on another above which spoke about interviewing at programs you *wouldn't* consider matching to. Its one thing to have a program low on your list and interview there, but if you KNOW you wouldn't want to live/work etc. there, then why bother even going for an interview (which was my question to the OP)?

Great point Ms. Cox! If you would not want to live and work in a particular area, you should not be interviewing there!

 

[Danica]

I'm baffled why any AMG would be upset about pre-matches, considering that 95% of AMG's match and usually within their first three choices.

Secondly, as stated, most AMG's would not consider the places that offer pre-match.
Example, how many of you would even deign to interview at Harlem, Bronx-Lebanon, Lincoln, Interfaith, Woodhull, Brooklyn hosp, Wyckoff or any of the other IMG mills?
Answer, None.

If an AMG applied, those institutions would salivate at the thought. But since these institutions are beneath you and they still have to acquire staff year after year, they do what is necessary. So why does it bother you so much?

 

[Doowai]

I'm baffled why any AMG would be upset about pre-matches, considering that 95% of AMG's match and usually within their first three choices.

Secondly, as stated, most AMG's would not consider the places that offer pre-match.
Example, how many of you would even deign to interview at Harlem, Bronx-Lebanon, Lincoln, Interfaith, Woodhull, Brooklyn hosp, Wyckoff or any of the other IMG mills?
Answer, None.

If an AMG applied, those institutions would salivate at the thought. But since these institutions are beneath you and they still have to acquire staff year after year, they do what is necessary. So why does it bother you so much?

Exactly, and by offering a prematch they can get the people they feel are the best applicants before losing them to other programs.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Exactly, and by offering a prematch they can get the people they feel are the best applicants before losing them to other programs.

This is a circular argument. If there were no prematches, and IMG's went through the match also, then applicants and programs would get their best matches. Once you allow prematches, the match becomes "corrupted" -- applicants can be offered prematches from programs that would be lower on their ROL's, and feel pressured to take them in case they don't get a spot in the match (and also really be hurt by not taking the prematch, since that program will simply prematch someone else and the spot is gone). programs have the same pressures -- take people early in the app season, so you don't end up short at the end. If I remember correctly, you were the victim of this exact problem.

Should all applicants be bound by the match, these problems go away. new problems arise, mainly that of getting visa's in time for IMG's.

I fully agree that these prematch offers really don't affect AMG's much at all.

 

[nervous student]

I think there is something that AMGs are missing with us FMGs. Let's say an AMG doesn't match...you can go to the dean's office and have the PD at your institution support you in the scramble and probably get a great spot. If not possibly your home school could at least offer you a spot for a prelim year.

An FMG on the other hand has NO help and no place to go if they don't match. They are also seen as second rate in the scramble and therefore end up with nothing. So the prematch is a way for us to avoid not matching and then having NO CHANCE in the scramble....

 

[mmag]

What is the penalty if a program does not keep 75% of its spots in the NRMP match? Would it be noted as a match violation?

I can see no regulations in the NRMP which prevents programs asking candidates if they are interested in a pre-match contract; nor is there any restrictions on candidates from asking.

If you are seriously interested in a program and they have told you the same, I suggest you call or write the PD, express your interest, make mention of the fact that as an Independent DO candidate you are available for a pre-match contract (if that is what you want). You guys make it sound like junior high and wondering if someone else likes you; its OK to tell them you feel the same way, its even ok to say those 3 little words FIRST!

Bear in mind that not all programs offer contracts outside of the match as the NRMP does require them to offer 75% of their positions in the match. Also do not drop out of the match until you get a signed contract from a program that offers you one.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

What is the penalty if a program does not keep 75% of its spots in the NRMP match? Would it be noted as a match violation?

This is not correct. For the subspecialty matches, the NRMP requires that 75% of the available spots be in the match. When more than 25% of positions are given away outside the match, there tends to be a "run on the bank" and the match falls apart. In the subspecialty matches, programs can offer anyone a spot outside the match.

In the NRMP main match, all US Seniors must use the match. This prevents the match from falling apart, and there is no rule about how many positions can be offered outside the match.