Prescription rules

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

starbuckscoffee

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Messages
88
Reaction score
2
Points
4,551
  1. Resident [Any Field]
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
When can we start prescribing meds outside the hospital? My residency program gave us script pads, and some of my senior residents said they prescribed meds for themselves or family/friends during PGY1 year. I thought we had to wait until we passed Step 3 and finished PGY1. Is there any real rule? Does it vary from state to state? I know the rules regarding prescription of controlled substances vary, but what about for general prescriptions?

Thanks!
 
It's state-dependent. Some will not let you write prescriptions at all, and some will with certain caveats. For instance, in PA, you are allowed to write them with a training license provided they are on prescription pads from my institution and for patients I treat in the regular course of my work for the institution (Schedule III and below...Schedule II still requires you to be fully licensed with a DEA).

In other words, not for me or my family/friends. Now, that's not to say if I wrote them they wouldn't be filled, as the pharmacy isn't going to call up and ask the hospital "Was this person a patient?" But I'm quite sure it's still illegal, and a quick way to ensure you will get fired from your program (at the very least).
 
In other words, not for me or my family/friends. Now, that's not to say if I wrote them they wouldn't be filled, as the pharmacy isn't going to call up and ask the hospital "Was this person a patient?" But I'm quite sure it's still illegal, and a quick way to ensure you will get fired from your program (at the very least).

If you're not writing for narcotics, it's not illegal, and it's not going to get you fired from your program.
 
If you're not writing for narcotics, it's not illegal, and it's not going to get you fired from your program.

Narcotics isn't the only risky script. I bet if you hooked up all your buddies with viagra/cialis I bet you wouldn't last long in a program. Truth of the matter is you have no business writing scripts for family or friends. You won't be fired if you get someone a z-pack because you think their symptoms warrant it, but don't kid yourself that you are allowed to just write any non-controlled script without any career implications.
 
This subject has been discussed multiple times in the past, try a search.

I have never written a script for anyone outside of residency though I was requested several times for abx and whatnot when I was a resident. This is a slippery slope.
 
If you're not writing for narcotics, it's not illegal, and it's not going to get you fired from your program.

I disagree with this. If you are treating people outside of a training situation, without attending oversight, you are practicing medicine alone and without malpractice insurance coverage and without an individual license. It may seem trivial to write for a zpak for a friend, but if something goes wrong, and it's discovered that you were treating this person, you are screwed.
 
I disagree with this. If you are treating people outside of a training situation, without attending oversight, you are practicing medicine alone and without malpractice insurance coverage and without an individual license. It may seem trivial to write for a zpak for a friend, but if something goes wrong, and it's discovered that you were treating this person, you are screwed.

I'm not recommending it. But when people say "Writing a script for yourself or a friend is illegal," that's not exactly true either. It's not a great idea, but it's not illegal.
 
I'm not recommending it. But when people say "Writing a script for yourself or a friend is illegal," that's not exactly true either. It's not a great idea, but it's not illegal.

My understanding is that it IS illegal in my state, as your first year medical license is only a training license (i.e. this person can only practice medicine with supervision). If I write a script for my friend and mention it to my attending, that's probably fine, but if I write it without ever telling my supervising doctor that I'm doing it that's practicing without a license and that is against the law. Now after first year when you have your real license it should be no problem.
 
I wouldn't risk writing scripts outside of your residency. You don't want to test the boundaries of what you can and can't do during residency because depending on how anal your program director is you may get fired. Your first goal in residency is to just survive it. I wouldn't do anything that may remotely jeopardize it.

You should go in every day to residency with a big smile on your face and saying, "Thank you, sir. Can I please have another?"
 
If you're not writing for narcotics, it's not illegal, and it's not going to get you fired from your program.

On a training license, I'm almost certain that it is. The rules that allow trainees who have not passed step 3 and have not obtained an unrestricted license do so on the assumption that they are writing the prescriptions during the normal course of their work at the training program, and under the oversight of the program. Obviously, writing them for family and friends who aren't patients at the hospital does not fall under this umbrella.

If you have an unrestricted license, that's a different story.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
The lawyer at my place said that even if we have a full license (ie. pass step 3, PGY 2, pay all the money for the license), our residency contract still states that we have to practice under supervision. So we would be violating our residency contract if we wrote meds for ourselves. So you might want to read your contract or talk to whoever does the legal things for your program.
 
The lawyer at my place said that even if we have a full license (ie. pass step 3, PGY 2, pay all the money for the license), our residency contract still states that we have to practice under supervision. So we would be violating our residency contract if we wrote meds for ourselves. So you might want to read your contract or talk to whoever does the legal things for your program.

This seems like it could only be true for places that don't allow moonlighting.
 
The lawyer at my place said that even if we have a full license (ie. pass step 3, PGY 2, pay all the money for the license), our residency contract still states that we have to practice under supervision. So we would be violating our residency contract if we wrote meds for ourselves. So you might want to read your contract or talk to whoever does the legal things for your program.
As noted earlier.... this has been discussed.

There are numerous different issues at play. Each by itself can make writing for medications and/or treatments outside of your practice a problem.

1. A trainee license in most states is issued under the presumption that your prescribing is within the training practice and under the supervision of your trainers (i.e. attending staff).
2. A resident must abide by bylaws of the training program and/or facilities. Thus, even with an "unrestricted license", you may very well be limited to prescribe within the scope of your practice and limited to the patients within said practice. Keep in mind, you are likely under some sort of expectations that may surround your malpractice coverage.
3. Different state license boards have policies and/or positions on prescibing. Most, at a minimum require a documentation trail. this is generally an expectation that a "chart" is generated. Most also frown upon writing scripts for friends and family. The expectation is that friends and family should not get less then "standard of care" because you are short cutting the healthcare system. Again, minimum standards require disease type appropriate work-up, charting, treatment, and follow-up.
4. Most specilties do have ethics guidelines and such opposing friend and family prescribing.
5. There is very limited justification to treat friends and family outside of regular healthcare practice. If it is an emergency, the last thing they need is a short cut that stops them from getting maximal care and proper evaluation. If it is not an emergency, they can obviously schedule to see a qualified provider.

I have seen licenses revoked and or placed on probation because the licensing med board pulled up the prescribing history and it did not match the available patient records. Lack of appropriate patient records are deemed at the very minimum a lapse in "professionalism".
 
It's state-dependent. Some will not let you write prescriptions at all, and some will with certain caveats. For instance, in PA, you are allowed to write them with a training license provided they are on prescription pads from my institution and for patients I treat in the regular course of my work for the institution (Schedule III and below...Schedule II still requires you to be fully licensed with a DEA).

In other words, not for me or my family/friends. Now, that's not to say if I wrote them they wouldn't be filled, as the pharmacy isn't going to call up and ask the hospital "Was this person a patient?" But I'm quite sure it's still illegal, and a quick way to ensure you will get fired from your program (at the very least).

Your institutional DEA number with suffix allows you to prescribe all controlled substances, including Schedule II drugs. This is a national rule, and has been verified by a bunch of different pharmacists I know. I write for Dilaudid and Percocet pretty often (only to patients I have discharged from the hospital).

As for other non-controlled prescriptions - who cares? I have written for amoxicillin for a couple of close friends who met Centor criteria for strep throat, and had a history of strep, blah blah. I just write up a mini chart under donated medical services, just in case. 3 billion prescriptions are written per year in the US. I have refilled my own Retin-A Micro, doxycycline, etc., with no problems. I doubt if anyone can find a case where a doctor -- in training or otherwise -- was disciplined for prescribing benign drugs like these to others or to themselves. I have heard of one case where a nurse kept getting 'treated' for pneumonia with abx by random doctor coworkers/acquaintances, but actually had lung cancer and died shortly after. It's not hard to exercise judgment in these cases. Acne - ok, hardcore infections - maybe not.
 
...As for other non-controlled prescriptions - who cares? ... I doubt if anyone can find a case where a doctor -- in training or otherwise -- was disciplined for prescribing benign drugs like these to others or to themselves. I have heard of one case where a nurse kept getting 'treated' for pneumonia with abx by random doctor coworkers/acquaintances, but actually had lung cancer and died shortly after. It's not hard to exercise judgment in these cases. Acne - ok, hardcore infections - maybe not.
You may want to update... you list as a "med-student".

As to everything else, you really need to take a step back and have a reality check. Prescribing is not just a minor thing. It is a significant responsibility. Aspirin kills numerous patients yearly... without a script. Do not be so cavalier about what medications are "benign". Just about every medical/professional society has clear positions on the appropriateness and professionalism of prescribing meds and treatment outside of your practice and/or outside of your specialty. They also have positions on treating friends and family. You in theory have chosen to enter into a "profession". You might want to find out what that means and what are the expected standards of conduct within that profession as opposed to simply promoting a course of action because you don't know anyone that got in trouble (of which there are numerous).

You can surf the disciplinary action publications by different state med boards to learn of folks disciplined for "unprofessional behavior".
 
Just about every medical/professional society has clear positions on the appropriateness and professionalism of prescribing meds and treatment outside of your practice and/or outside of your specialty. They also have positions on treating friends and family. You in theory have chosen to enter into a "profession". You might want to find out what that means and what are the expected standards of conduct within that profession as opposed to simply promoting a course of action because you don't know anyone that got in trouble (of which there are numerous).

blah blah blah blah blah. i know medicine has come a long way, but sometimes i really wish we could all be swept 50 years into the past where a doctor could prescribe whatever the *$@! they wanted to whomever the *$@! they wanted and the words "medicolegal" and "slippery slope" didn't exist. not because that sort of mentality is right, but because the "professionalism" police hadn't yet perfected the art of getting that stick so completely up their own asses.

there's nothing wrong with refilling the script for your albuterol. there's nothing wrong with refilling the script for your wife's antidepressants that she's been on for 10 years. there will never be anything wrong with doing these things medicolegally, socially, morally, ethically, philosophically, professionally, etc etc etc. don't write your buddies for dilaudid and don't tell someone with a 108 degree fever they're fine and just need some penicillin.

that is all.
 
...there's nothing wrong with refilling the script for your albuterol. there's nothing wrong with refilling the script for your wife's antidepressants that she's been on for 10 years. there will never be anything wrong with doing these things medicolegally, socially, morally, ethically, philosophically, professionally, etc etc etc...
actually, there are many things that are wrong. Those examples are exactly examples that have had some unfortunate consequences.... from psychiatric meds to astma to etc.... These thinsg are actually published in state medical boards publications on disciplinary action. The duration one takes a medication does not negate the importance of the underlying disease or ongoing treatment and monitoring. It is the ~good physician that considers the consequences of medications and treatsments even if it is the 20th year said therapy has been provided. My significant other deserves better then having me assume the role of psychiatrist or PCP just because it is convenient or cost effective and then begin prescribing psych meds or other chronic illness meds.

Each physician can choose to follow their own moral/professional compass if they want. It is very easy to do. That does not make the actions correct. That is actually the oposire of being within a "profession". You may "never" see that as true....
 
I would listen to JackADeli and use extreme caution in residency. Don't give your PD a reason to fire you. I've known people who have been fired and for them it's a very difficult situation to be in. Don't put yourself in that position.
 
blah blah blah blah blah. i know medicine has come a long way, but sometimes i really wish we could all be swept 50 years into the past where a doctor could prescribe whatever the *$@! they wanted to whomever the *$@! they wanted and the words "medicolegal" and "slippery slope" didn't exist. not because that sort of mentality is right, but because the "professionalism" police hadn't yet perfected the art of getting that stick so completely up their own asses.

there's nothing wrong with refilling the script for your albuterol. there's nothing wrong with refilling the script for your wife's antidepressants that she's been on for 10 years. there will never be anything wrong with doing these things medicolegally, socially, morally, ethically, philosophically, professionally, etc etc etc. don't write your buddies for dilaudid and don't tell someone with a 108 degree fever they're fine and just need some penicillin.

that is all.

It's not an issue of professionalism police. It's pretty lame to try to suggest that notions like abiding by the law or the mores of the profession are garbage. The reason things aren't the same as 50 years ago is because the "doctors" of 50 years ago didn't do a very good job in these areas, with their cavalier attitudes and rampant overprescribing. The fact that we have so many resistant bugs is probably testament to the fact that they did a lot of bad doctoring and over-prescribing back when.

You signed a contract with your residency, you are working under a trainee license, and you are bound to follow those rules you signed on to. This isn't medico-lego garbage, it's simple contract law, with a bit of medmal risk thrown in. If the program has rules against writing scripts for individuals not under the care of your attending, then if you break the rule, you could be subject to discipline. Not complicated, not an issue of ethics. You signed on in agreement to this. Obviously narcotics are going to hit everyone's radar, and more mild things probably aren't. But you are walking a very dangerous line if you violate rules by writing scripts for non-patients, including yourself. Not really worth it.
 
Last edited:
there's nothing wrong with refilling the script for your albuterol. there's nothing wrong with refilling the script for your wife's antidepressants that she's been on for 10 years. there will never be anything wrong with doing these things medicolegally, socially, morally, ethically, philosophically, professionally, etc etc etc. don't write your buddies for dilaudid and don't tell someone with a 108 degree fever they're fine and just need some penicillin.

that is all.

I regret to tell you that this is inaccurate. As noted by JAD above, State Medical Board actions are a matter of public record and easily obtained. And while most actions involving physician licensure are related to drug and alcohol use, inappropriate conduct, failure to update CMEs and inappropriate controlled substance prescribing, there are cases of the latter involving non-controlled substances.

"A physician is required to maintain adequate legal medical records, containing at a minimum, sufficient information to identify the patient, support the diagnosis, justify the treatment, accurately document the results, indicate advice and cautionary warnings provided to the patient and provide sufficient information for another practitioner to assume continuity of the patient's care at any point in the course of the patient's treatment. A.R.S. 32-1041(2)"

The above applies to ALL care, not just for controlled substances (for which there is a separate statute which forbids Arizona physicians from prescribing controlled substances to family, friends or others who are not patients of said physician.

The above was highlighted for a local physician who was treating his own daughter for depression. At the coroner's inquest into her death from overdose, it was noted that her room was filled with prescription bottles written by her father; many for controlled substances but also for antidepressants and other non-controlled substances. The Board noted, in its actions, that one of the failures of the respondent was a failure to keep adequate records, to discuss use and misuse of said medications, to perform a physical and psychiatric examination, etc. They specifically mentioned the non-controlled substances in their investigation.

I'd imagine it was horrific enough to have your child commit suicide, but to do it using medications you had prescribed and then to be reprimanded and put on probation by the medical board for violating standards of practice.

You don't get a free pass because your wife has been using her antidepressant for 10 years, or because the medication you are prescribing is not a controlled substance. The law states, at least here, that unless the person is a patient of yours and you have documented adequate medical records, that you are in violation.

It bears repeating that most physicians I know have written scripts for family and friends especially for long-term medications; I know I have. Its easy to convince ourselves that its ok to write a script for a UTI or refill someone's Albuterol script when they can't get to their PCP. But I also know that we are seen as easy targets especially if you're considered nice and approachable - I've had an office staff member ask me for Vicodin when she burned her arm, I've had a nurse request Percocet for migraines and numerous nurses during residency ask for non-narcotics.

You can do what you wish, but my advice would be never ever ever write a script for a controlled substance for someone who isn't a patient (and with adequate documentation) and you should definitely have second and even third thoughts about refilling those "benign" drugs (which as JAD points out, are not benign). My office staff now knows not to ask for a script for *anything*, at least from me - I won't do it. They have health insurance and they have PCPs.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
...failures of the respondent was a failure ...to perform a physical and psychiatric examination, etc...
Aside from all the other points mentioned, I think this is one of the most obvious and overlooked issue when young med-students/residents/attendings argue "benign" therapy/care/prescribing for family and friends. We may joke about it. However, exceedingly few physicians will perform a complete history & physical on a friend or family member prior to prescribing meds & treatment. Further, "we" must seriously question those that do peform a complete physical! The medical associations site this as very important to consider.... is it appropriate for a parent to perform breast/pelvic/rectal/hernia exams on spouse or children, or neighbors kids? Do the children have a position of power to decline such care being offered? Should a child/teen/young adult be providing you their sexual history? Many are too nervous and worried to upset or offend the "physician" and tell them they prefer an independent practitioner.

Is your loved one going to be honest and tell you the issues that are contributing to their depression? What if it is you the husband/wife and work hours contributing? What if it is consideration of a divorce after 10 years of depression....

This leads to at the very least a question of ability to consent. If you want to forego the exams, etc...., you are then offering them LESS healthcare and by default they are actually being hurt by you being a physician.
 
As for other non-controlled prescriptions - who cares? I have written for amoxicillin for a couple of close friends who met Centor criteria for strep throat, and had a history of strep, blah blah. I just write up a mini chart under donated medical services, just in case. 3 billion prescriptions are written per year in the US. I have refilled my own Retin-A Micro, doxycycline, etc., with no problems. I doubt if anyone can find a case where a doctor -- in training or otherwise -- was disciplined for prescribing benign drugs like these to others or to themselves. I have heard of one case where a nurse kept getting 'treated' for pneumonia with abx by random doctor coworkers/acquaintances, but actually had lung cancer and died shortly after. It's not hard to exercise judgment in these cases. Acne - ok, hardcore infections - maybe not.

Is my memory off or aren't you a new intern? These seem like bold moves for someone who is just getting started.

Personally - I have a limited/educational license that says I can practice only under the hospital's umbrella in the appropriate setting, and I signed a contract with my program that as a PGY1 I am not allowed to "moonlight". I will not be prescribing anything that is not within the scope of my residency.

The best advice on this thread is that your goal in residency is to survive it. Get through with the best training you can and don't do anything to jeopardize it. My friends and family will be able to make their routine PCP visits and get their routine scripts filled without my help - after all, somehow they managed before I was a doctor...
 
it bears repeating that most physicians i know have written scripts for family and friends especially for long-term medications; i know i have.

this kind of undercuts your entire post, which read something like: disclaimer, example, warning, fine line, slippery slope, be careful!.. but i do it and so does everyone else.

also, obviously, i don't advocate doing anything legal, and anything outside the scope of your training license. but in many instances, prescribing to yourselves and family members violates neither.
 
If you're not writing for narcotics, it's not illegal, and it's not going to get you fired from your program.
Actually, you can get fired.... may be low on the likelihood scale... but it is another thing in which you are turning control of your career destiny over to the whims of your program.
...My friends and family will be able to make their routine PCP visits and get their routine scripts filled without my help - after all, somehow they managed before I was a doctor...
I think it is a combination of a new physician stroking their own ego and ignorant friends and families taking advantage that spurs these attitudes of "benign" out of scope practices.

Once you are a physician, straight out of medical school.... very, very little you can actually do! You are naive, ignorant and only have a foundation. It takes some years of additional training (i.e. residency) to provide the competency to manage the care of patients. Writing so called "benign" scripts is a seductive way of making yourself feel like a "real doctor" without actually behaving like a doctor. It also sends a message to those that matter to you that you are a "real doctor".

The problem is that a script is the smallest part (though potential big impact) of a patient care encounter. The role of doctor is to be a professional and have the maturity to actually say, "no". It is hard. These are people you care about. They don't have your years of training to understand why it is improper to just write a script. But, it is that same ignorance and lack of training in them.... that prevents them from being the doctor. It's called tough love. Be a professional.... be a physician. Tell them "no" and send them to their PCP or help them get a good PCP.

Nobody ever said being a doctor is easy.... so, don't get seduced into believing taking the easy way in treatment and patient care is in some way being a physician.
...It bears repeating that most physicians I know have written scripts for family and friends especially for long-term medications; I know I have. Its easy to convince ourselves that its ok to...

...you should definitely have second and even third thoughts about refilling those "benign" drugs ...My office staff now knows not to ask for a script for *anything*, at least from me - I won't do it...
this kind of undercuts your entire post, which read something like: disclaimer, example, warning, fine line, slippery slope, be careful!.. but i do it and so does everyone else...
I think she is pointing out that she recognizes our failures as a profession. However, acknowledging our failures does not mean continuation of said failures is acceptable.
...i don't advocate doing anything [il]legal, and anything outside the scope of your training license. but in many instances, prescribing to yourselves and family members violates neither.
You really need to take a look at your state licensing boards and specialty colleges/professional societies. Because, in MOST cases prescribing to yourself/family/friends violates one if not BOTH!
 
Last edited:
It's not an issue of professionalism police. It's pretty lame to try to suggest that notions like abiding by the law or the mores of the profession are garbage.

i've never advocated violating the law, or the terms of your training license. i was speaking toward self-prescription in general. and as far as the "mores" of the profession go, the anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that self- and family-prescription is far from the exception to the rule.

The reason things aren't the same as 50 years ago is because the "doctors" of 50 years ago didn't do a very good job in these areas, with their cavalier attitudes and rampant overprescribing. The fact that we have so many resistant bugs is probably testament to the fact that they did a lot of bad doctoring and over-prescribing back when.

i'm fairly certain that the overuse of antibiotics is not significantly different 50 years ago versus today. if you have any evidence to the contrary, i'd be interested in seeing it.

You signed a contract with your residency, you are working under a trainee license, and you are bound to follow those rules you signed on to. This isn't medico-lego garbage, it's simple contract law, with a bit of medmal risk thrown in. If the program has rules against writing scripts for individuals not under the care of your attending, then if you break the rule, you could be subject to discipline. Not complicated, not an issue of ethics. You signed on in agreement to this. Obviously narcotics are going to hit everyone's radar, and more mild things probably aren't. But you are walking a very dangerous line if you violate rules by writing scripts for non-patients, including yourself. Not really worth it.

as a half-humorous aside (and i don't have numbers to back me up,) i'd be willing to wager that the odds of getting into a fatal car accident on the way to seeing your PCP are greater than the odds of having a bad outcome from self-prescribing a non-controlled substance.
 
You really need to take a look at your state licensing boards and specialty colleges/professional societies. Because, in MOST cases prescribing to yourself/family/friends violates one if not BOTH!

this has been discussed to death, but my impression from abundant input from members on this board, is that writing non-controlled substances to friends and family members, providing you keep some sort of cursory medical record, is a violation of neither state law nor the laws of any specific professional society, most of the time.

i feel i should add at this time: i have never prescribed anything to myself, family, or friends, nor do i plan to during my residency, simply because it's a sensitive subject for a lot of people, and occasionally, it has the possibility of getting you in trouble, particularly as a resident with so many people above you in a position of power. the only reason i so passionately defend the practice in general is because the hand-holding and oversight and lack of sovereignty as a profession really strikes a nerve with me. admittedly, my responses at times are reactionary and overly emotional. and i don't mean to offend anyone!
 
Last edited:
this has been discussed to death, but my impression from abundant input from members on this board, is that writing non-controlled substances to friends and family members, providing you keep some sort of cursory medical record, is a violation of neither state law nor the laws of any specific professional society, most of the time.
Maybe it has been discussed to death.... You still don't seem to get it. It is NOT about what friends/family/colleagues say on a on-line forum that governs these issues. It is a matter of state licensing boards, residency specifics, hospital specifics, and your governing professional society. So please, I encourage you to stop siting what your friend or other ~social authority has told you and go actually find out from the state licensing boards, etc... as noted. If you look, WS has even cited specific law. It is at the very least stupid to practice base on, "abundant input from members on this board".
...lack of sovereignty as a profession really strikes a nerve with me...
You really need to get an understanding of what it means to be a "member" of a profession. There are standards and norms. You are describing being in a profession by operating outside those standards and norms.
 
My apologies to all that may be irritated by how this is dragging on and on. I may have made it more complicated and confusing. So, let me put it as simple and specific as possible. If you want to prescribe for friends and families as a resident or even practicing physician, it is very simple.

1. confirm your treatment/prescribing practice is in agreement to the rules and guidelines/bylaws of your hospital/medical facility/GME/etc.... So, be a professional and find out the actual rules/guidelines specific to your situation

2. confirm your treatment/prescribing practice is in agreement to the rules and guidelines/bylaws and terms of the malpractice policy that covers you... So, be a professional and find out the actual rules/guidelines specific to your situation

3. confirm your treatment/prescribing practice is in agreement to the rules and laws as established by your state medical board (also check the Fed DEA)... So, be a professional and find out the actual rules/laws specific to your state licensing board

4. confirm your treatment/prescribing practice is in agreement to the professional standards set by your specialty... So, be a professional and find out the actual rules/laws specific to your state licensing board

It really is that simple. Your medical license comes with some responsibility. that includes getting actual information as opposed to "abundant input from members on this board". Get real information and don't talk about what you heard or what you feel. Find out what are the guidelines and standards of the profession you have chosen to join.
 
this has been discussed to death, but my impression from abundant input from members on this board, is that writing non-controlled substances to friends and family members, providing you keep some sort of cursory medical record, is a violation of neither state law nor the laws of any specific professional society, most of the time.

Is waffle your favorite food? Is the hedge your favorite plant?
 
this kind of undercuts your entire post, which read something like: disclaimer, example, warning, fine line, slippery slope, be careful!.. but i do it and so does everyone else.

also, obviously, i don't advocate doing anything legal, and anything outside the scope of your training license. but in many instances, prescribing to yourselves and family members violates neither.

1) I honestly stated that I have done so in the past when I was naive and thought it was ok.

2) I went on to state that I do not do so now for the reasons I stated above.

3) I really don't give a **** what others do, but your post stated (and continues to do so) that prescribing to family members isn't a problem.

I provided information to you that unless that family member or friend is a patient and you have treated them as such (ie, collected a co-pay, done a thorough H&P, documented the need for the medication, counseled them on the risks, etc.), then in many states you are in violation of the Medical Board requirements. I'm telling you this stuff because they don't teach this in residency, especially in academic programs where your attendings may be out of touch with what is going on.

It does not undercut my argument to recognize that a lot of people do it - I only have to go to my medical board's website (open to the public) to read about physicians who do it and what happened to them. That was enough to scare *me*. My argument is that you can do what you wish but you should recognize that bad things can happen, people can report you and that in many states you will receive a reprimand (or more) for prescribing to non-patients and that it will be reported and a matter of public record.

I have decided that I work in a high enough litigation specialty that my license is not worth such hassles.

Finally, JAD brought up the issue of malpractice which is a cogent one. Let's say that you prescribe a medication for a family member or friend, a medication for a condition that is not usually within your scope of practice to evaluate (ie, an antidepressant written by a non psychiatrist or FM). Said family member has a reaction or some other complication. Perhaps they even decide to sue you - after all, the general public knows that suing physicians is easy, doesn't cost them anything financially or psychologically since the insurance company will pay for it. So what's the harm - they'll get some dough and you won't be hurt. Problem comes when your malpractice provider decides that you were functioning outside of the scope of your practice, because even though legally you can write scripts for whatever you want, you aren't the best person to assess whether or not your family member/friend is depressed, is this the best med for them and then they go on further to discover that you only have a cursory record (if any) of the care you rendered to said person.

Guess who is in violation of their malpractice policy and won't be covered?
 
Last edited:
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
...I really don't give a **** what others do...
😍
...I'm telling you this stuff because they don't teach this in residency, especially in academic programs where your attendings may be out of touch with what is going on...
This is a very interesting and in someways ironic reality. If we think about it, we actually must understand the laws of the road and know how to drive in order to get a drivers license. A medical license.... most fail to bother and check what the rules and regs are in order to use and maintain your license. Could you imgaine if everyone with a drivers license based what the rules were on what their buddy or on-line forum folks told them as opposed to reading that book and actually knowing who has "right of way" and such?:meanie:
 
I'm telling you this stuff because they don't teach this in residency, especially in academic programs where your attendings may be out of touch with what is going on.

just to point out, this was specifically addressed when i started residency, and we were told that it is not advisable, but is ultimately legal and acceptable (and widespread.)
 
just to point out, this was specifically addressed when i started residency, and we were told: ....self- and family prescribing is legal, widespread, and allowed by our board of medicine.
It is not too hard to check out the licensing boards requirements and/or rules/laws. It is not so hard to find out what the position statements (if any) you particular specialty has on these things.

You wouldn't buy a house based on being "told". You wouldn't accept a job based on being "told". You need to find out what is the written/published standards.It's your license and your career; do not settle for being "told".
 
All I know is I'm still paranoid that entering a vicodin order on an inpatient is going to send them into liver failure. I sure as hell don't need the stress of wondering whether the outpatient rxs I write for family/friends (despite the fact that it's outside the bounds of my privileges) will have some kind of adverse reaction, at which point I'm f-d before my career really even starts.

The chances of that happening, I admit, are very, very small. But they aren't zero. So the question is: Why risk it? I'm the one with everything to lose, and nothing to gain. If my family and friends give me a hard time about it, that says all I need to know.
 
As a new intern, we had a 2 hour lecture on this exact topic. We were told, basically, not to write anything for anyone that wasn't a patient at our clinic (FM). They said that you can make exceptions on weekends for non-controlled substances (friend visiting on vacation gets strep while visiting you) but to make sure you document what you've done when Monday rolls around. That being said, if you're not in solo practice, we were told that its better to call someone else in your practice, describe the situation, and have them call in the Rx.
 
...we had a 2 hour lecture on this exact topic. We were told, basically, not to write anything for anyone that wasn't a patient at our clinic (FM). They said that you can make exceptions on weekends for non-controlled substances (friend visiting on vacation gets strep while visiting you) ...
There is alot of wink-wink-nod-nod that occurs at some of these residency lectures. I have known PDs that "allow" this wiggle room only to turn around and call a resident and have them call a script on their (PD's) family member outside the clinic.

Again, it is very easy to just find out for your self exactly what the state board, professional society, etc... rules are. Making exceptions for visiting friends on the weekend is usually NOT legit. Take your friend to an urgent care facility if necessary.
 
Like JAD said, google prescribing to family and [state name] will usually get you the relevant info within the first couple of links. Finding the rules for Tennessee took about 10 seconds
http://health.state.tn.us/Downloads/g4056347.pdf

You can get away with a fair amount if they don't check, but why give someone the chance to sanction you and screw with your livelihood? Especially with stories like the punitive actions of the Texas medical board, it's not worth giving someone the opportunity.
 
Last edited:
...why give someone the chance to sanction you and screw with your livelihood? Especially with stories like...
Yep.... plenty of folks try to lump things as "emergency" or "minor" and get themselves in trouble. Failure to plan on the part of you or your friend/family member does not equate an emergency. You or your friend/family members chronic medication running out on a Sunday does not equate an emergency. The safest way to consider, "minor" is to ask if the condition and treatment is one that a non-physician parent/guardian/teacher might treat? Or, is it a condition that your treatment (i.e. prescribing) requires a training and license?
...That being said, if you're not in solo practice, we were told that its better to call someone else in your practice, describe the situation, and have them call in the Rx.
Maybe I am reading this wrong.... if not, I must say, IMPO that statement is absolutely wrong in almost every state I have checked. The situation as I read it above is akin to just making sure your name isn't on the paperwor/papertrail. You examining a patient, then calling a friend or colleague and having them prescribe based on your telephone description of the patient is not legit. You can not in anyway present an argument as to how such a practice assures the patient is getting quality care. This is one reason plenty of physicians have gotten into trouble over internet prescribing. A communication between a physician and another party (not the patient) does not in general constitute a patient-doctor relationship. However, it may aid in hiding the "primary physician" from the record.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
There is alot of wink-wink-nod-nod that occurs at some of these residency lectures. I have known PDs that "allow" this wiggle room only to turn around and call a resident and have them call a script on their (PD's) family member outside the clinic.

Again, it is very easy to just find out for your self exactly what the state board, professional society, etc... rules are. Making exceptions for visiting friends on the weekend is usually NOT legit. Take your friend to an urgent care facility if necessary.

Maybe I am reading this wrong.... if not, I must say, IMPO that statement is absolutely wrong in almost every state I have checked. The situation as I read it above is akin to just making sure your name isn't on the paperwor/papertrail. You examining a patient, then calling a friend or colleague and having them prescribe based on your telephone description of the patient is not legit. You can not in anyway present an argument as to how such a practice assures the patient is getting quality care. This is one reason plenty of physicians have gotten into trouble over internet prescribing. A communication between a physician and another party (not the patient) does not in general constitute a patient-doctor relationship. However, it may aid in hiding the "primary physician" from the record.

Fair enough, looking back I didn't explain properly. As long as we document ASAP after the encounter we were usually OK (per the law). Likewise, the calling a partner issue falls under the applicable law.


SECTION 40-47-113
. Establishment of physician-patient relationship as prerequisite to prescribing drugs; unprofessional conduct.

(A) It is unprofessional conduct for a licensee initially to prescribe drugs to an individual without first establishing a proper physician-patient relationship. A proper relationship, at a minimum, requires that the licensee make an informed medical judgment based on the circumstances of the situation and on the licensee's training and experience and that the licensee:

(1) personally perform and document an appropriate history and physical examination, make a diagnosis, and formulate a therapeutic plan;

(2) discuss with the patient the diagnosis and the evidence for it, and the risks and benefits of various treatment options; and

(3) ensure the availability of the licensee or coverage for the patient for appropriate follow-up care.

(B) Notwithstanding subsection (A), a licensee may prescribe for a patient whom the licensee has not personally examined under certain circumstances including, but not limited to, writing admission orders for a newly hospitalized patient, prescribing for a patient of another licensee for whom the prescriber is taking call, prescribing for a patient examined by a licensed advanced practice registered nurse, a physician assistant, or other physician extender authorized by law and supervised by the physician, or continuing medication on a short-term basis for a new patient prior to the patient's first appointment.

(C) Prescribing drugs to individuals the licensee has never personally examined based solely on answers to a set of questions is unprofessional.
 
Fair enough, looking back I didn't explain properly. As long as we document ASAP after the encounter we were usually OK (per the law). Likewise, the calling a partner issue falls under the applicable law.


SECTION 40-47-113. Establishment of physician-patient relationship as prerequisite to prescribing drugs; unprofessional conduct.

(A) It is unprofessional conduct for a licensee initially to prescribe drugs to an individual without first establishing a proper physician-patient relationship. A proper relationship, at a minimum, requires that the licensee make an informed medical judgment based on the circumstances of the situation and on the licensee's training and experience and that the licensee:

(1) personally perform and document an appropriate history and physical examination, make a diagnosis, and formulate a therapeutic plan;

(2) discuss with the patient the diagnosis and the evidence for it, and the risks and benefits of various treatment options; and

(3) ensure the availability of the licensee or coverage for the patient for appropriate follow-up care.

(B) Notwithstanding subsection (A), a licensee may prescribe for a patient whom the licensee has not personally examined under certain circumstances including, but not limited to, writing admission orders for a newly hospitalized patient, prescribing for a patient of another licensee for whom the prescriber is taking call, prescribing for a patient examined by a licensed advanced practice registered nurse, a physician assistant, or other physician extender authorized by law and supervised by the physician, or continuing medication on a short-term basis for a new patient prior to the patient's first appointment.

(C) Prescribing drugs to individuals the licensee has never personally examined based solely on answers to a set of questions is unprofessional.
I don't know where you live or the rest of the laws. However, my read on what you describe is.... there is some issue with friend/family/self prescribing.... thus, you
"...personally perform and document an appropriate history and physical examination, make a diagnosis, and formulate a therapeutic plan".
Then you call a buddy/colleague and ask them to prescribe the medication on the patient they have not taken a history or examined....? No, I don't think that description falls under the partial excerpt you have provided. It appears a little wink-wink, nod-nod attempt to squeeze into these laws and guidelines. The entire gist of this thread is the issue of providing for care of self/friends/family outside your practice. A visiting friend is not within your practice. Further, they are apparently getting care by you and this is not "on-call" coverage. Are you saying this individual is being evaluated by you, then you request the "on-call" physician provide certain care, and then this individual is now going to be seen in your clinic or the "on-call" physician's clinic on Monday? Or, are they simply hopping a plane back to BFE and you are going to scribble down a progress note and place into some sort of chart on Monday? All these hoops suggest there is a real concern with appropriateness of treating yourself/friend/family.

Again, that kind of hoop hopping and justification creates some real dilemmas. not the least of which are very germane to trainees. By that explanation, you can be pressured to telephone provide scripts for attendings, their friends, and family!!!
 
Last edited:
If you're not writing for narcotics, it's not illegal, and it's not going to get you fired from your program.
Speak for your own program. It's against the rules at my program, and it apparently will get you fired.
 
IMHO, just looking at the few state law excerpts posted within this thread and the hoops people seem to suggest are required, anyone can see there are clear issues with the practice.

Again, from the perspectives of legal, ethical, proper, and professional, you need to look beyond simply a small excerpt of your state law. You must also take into account what are the specific written rules/guidelines/bylaws of 1. the facilities in which you train or practice 2. the associated GME 3. Your malpractice policy
Then, you should also verify what your specific profession's position is on this matter. Being "professional" does mean actually functioning within a profession in an appropriate manner. So, if you are FM, you should see if FM college has a position, and anesthesia, surgery, ortho, plastics, path, derm, dentistry, etc..... "Legal" does not always equate professional or ethical or appropriate.
 
...The medical associations site this as very important to consider.... is it appropriate for a parent to perform breast/pelvic/rectal/hernia exams on spouse or children, or neighbors kids? Do the children have a position of power to decline such care being offered? Should a child/teen/young adult be providing you their sexual history? Many are too nervous and worried to upset or offend the "physician" and tell them they prefer an independent practitioner.

.... This leads to at the very least a question of ability to consent...
Um, sure?
Not sure if that is sarcasm or honest. There are plenty of published concerns about the practice of that nature. The issues of consent are large. The concerns of emotional impact of having a dad exam his kids and assessing growth (?Tanner stage, etc...) and etc.... The issue of honest doctor patient relationship under these circumstances. Is your son or daughter providing complete history to a parent that they might otherwise provide to an independent provide with protected privacy..... That's just kids, haven't really got into other issues that may pertain to spouses as noted in original post.
 
Not sure if that is sarcasm or honest. There are plenty of published concerns about the practice of that nature. The issues of consent are large. The concerns of emotional impact of having a dad exam his kids and assessing growth (?Tanner stage, etc...) and etc.... The issue of honest doctor patient relationship under these circumstances. Is your son or daughter providing complete history to a parent that they might otherwise provide to an independent provide with protected privacy..... That's just kids, haven't really got into other issues that may pertain to spouses as noted in original post.


I think Prowler was referring to the pelvic and breast <ahem> "exam" of a spouse. You know, the kind that happens ~40 weeks before new family members arrive?

JAD, I know it's a serious subject, and as a resident have already had to tell a friend I wouldn't write for them, but you gotta recognize humorous comments on occasion.
 
I think Prowler was referring to the pelvic and breast <ahem> "exam" of a spouse. You know, the kind that happens ~40 weeks before new family members arrive?

JAD, I know it's a serious subject ...but you gotta recognize humorous comments on occasion.
I actually recognize the potential tongue and cheek on the subject of this thread.
...We may joke about it. ...perform a complete history & physical on a friend or family member...
I don't however, presume all pre-meds/med-students/etc... always appreciate it based on loss of tone on-line or in email.... so, I asked for clarification.
 
Not sure if that is sarcasm or honest. There are plenty of published concerns about the practice of that nature. The issues of consent are large. The concerns of emotional impact of having a dad exam his kids and assessing growth (?Tanner stage, etc...) and etc.... The issue of honest doctor patient relationship under these circumstances. Is your son or daughter providing complete history to a parent that they might otherwise provide to an independent provide with protected privacy..... That's just kids, haven't really got into other issues that may pertain to spouses as noted in original post.
I selected the text I was responding to, which was "spouse" and not "child."

I just think it's funny that you'd mention them in the same sentence. I haven't log-rolled my wife and done a rectal and declared "Sphincter tone intact, no gross blood," but it doesn't seem like a big deal to do a breast exam on her...
 
...I haven't log-rolled my wife and done a rectal and declared "Sphincter tone intact, no gross blood," but it doesn't seem like a big deal to do a breast exam on her...
I appreciate the the humor point.... Yes, some will try to differentiate the kid issue from the spouse. That is a major concern. The taboo seems less. Unfortunately the issues are still real.

The issues do include but not necessarily limited to consent, objectivity, end result with potential missed diagnosis, etc... Yes, we can palpate spouses this way or that... Again, raises significant issues of concerns. What if a spouse wants an independent physician. Will she feel uncomfortable telling a physician husband, "honey, i really want my own doctor". Will she be concerned about what her husband might think about her wanting a different individual to examine her breasts? What will be the emotional/social dynamic on the family if someone in the family believes a mistake or delay in diagnosis occurred by the physician husband/father/etc... It can be a very big deal all the way around.

The point is not to say you can not palpate a lump if your wife feels a lump and says, "honey feel this, is this normal?". The point is, you should still send her to her physician for definitive and comprehensive diagnosis and care... to include a formal exam.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Top Bottom