Presenting at national conference

[Endoxifen]

How unusual is presenting at a national or international clinical (oncology, neurosurgery) conference ? How significant is this to adcoms?

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[OrthoTraumaMD]

I don't know about other specialties, but that's impressive for a medical student, let alone a pre-Med. Unusual too. If you have that, more power to you.

 

[Endoxifen]

I don't know about other specialties, but that's impressive for a medical student, let alone a pre-Med. Unusual too. If you have that, more power to you.

Thanks! I'm really excited.

 

[efle]

So what exactly is it? Poster presentation of an abstract you're first author on at one of the national society annual meetings?

 

[Endoxifen]

So what exactly is it? Poster presentation of an abstract you're first author on at one of the national society annual meetings?

That exactly

Edit: The abstract should also be turned into a full paper and I'll be first author too.

 

[efle]

That exactly

Edit: The abstract should also be turned into a full paper and I'll be first author too.

Poster of your own project at a national conference is very above average, and having a first author paper is phenomenal (at that point you'd essentially only be beat out by people with grad degrees and a handful of other research superstars). This is the kind of thing that (together with high MCAT and GPA) gets the best of the best schools drooling.

 

[Endoxifen]

Poster of your own project at a national conference is very above average, and having a first author paper is phenomenal (at that point you'd essentially only be beat out by people with grad degrees and a handful of other research superstars). This is the kind of thing that (together with high MCAT and GPA) gets the best of the best schools drooling.

Thanks! Sounds like I'm on track.

 

[Kgizzle]

Poster of your own project at a national conference is very above average, and having a first author paper is phenomenal (at that point you'd essentially only be beat out by people with grad degrees and a handful of other research superstars). This is the kind of thing that (together with high MCAT and GPA) gets the best of the best schools drooling.

What the hell is average?

 

[efle]

What the hell is average?

A couple semesters of research for credit with a lot less to show for it (like a poster of your own but at your school research symposium, or maybe a 2nd-3rd authorship on a poster your PI presents at the national convention, or a 3rd authorship on a PI's paper, that kind of thing).

 

[Frogger27]

A couple semesters of research for credit with a lot less to show for it (like a poster of your own but at your school research symposium, or maybe a 2nd-3rd authorship on a poster your PI presents at the national convention, or a 3rd authorship on a PI's paper, that kind of thing).

I would take a middle author on a paper over presenting an abstract at a conference...

 

[efle]

I would take a middle author on a paper over presenting an abstract at a conference...

Really? I have friends that got a 3rd-4th authorship for essentially brainless scut work for their grad student. Your own abstract at natl conference at least indicates you did something that wasn't brainless, although it didn't pass peer review or anything.

So really I guess it depends on how much that middle authorship means in adcom's opinion/experience

I think @mimelim has commented on this before. What say you mim? You more impressed by a low authorship or by someone's own project but that hasn't been peer reviewed?

 

[efle]

@mimelim

 

[Endoxifen]

Really? I have friends that got a 3rd-4th authorship for essentially brainless scut work for their grad student. Your own abstract at natl conference at least indicates you did something that wasn't brainless, although it didn't pass peer review or anything.

So really I guess it depends on how much that middle authorship means in adcom's opinion/experience

I think @mimelim has commented on this before. What say you mim? You more impressed by a low authorship or by someone's own project but that hasn't been peer reviewed?

I'd be curious to see what @Goro or @LizzyM think about middle authorship.

 

[Frogger27]

Really? I have friends that got a 3rd-4th authorship for essentially brainless scut work for their grad student. Your own abstract at natl conference at least indicates you did something that wasn't brainless, although it didn't pass peer review or anything.

So really I guess it depends on how much that middle authorship means in adcom's opinion/experience

I think @mimelim has commented on this before. What say you mim? You more impressed by a low authorship or by someone's own project but that hasn't been peer reviewed?

I think once you get into the application for competitive residencies, quantity matters..... Having any authorship > Presentation

 

[LizzyM]

It depends on the topic and who the other authors are. If one of the authors is your parent, it is less impressive than if you are not related to the other authors. (true story that I'm not going to tell).

 

[efle]

It depends on the topic

Can I have an example? Like a conference presentation in ortho would impress more than a 3rd authorship on a cancer paper but not vice versa?

 

[JustAPhD]

Really? I have friends that got a 3rd-4th authorship for essentially brainless scut work for their grad student. Your own abstract at natl conference at least indicates you did something that wasn't brainless, although it didn't pass peer review or anything.
So really I guess it depends on how much that middle authorship means in adcom's opinion/experience

I think presenting at a national conference is a very noteworthy experience. Anyone can be tacked onto a publication as a middle author that gets lost in the sea of names. Presenting at a national conference A.) means you did actual work and B.) means you understand it enough that your PI trusts you to present and field questions from other labs in the topic. This is of course influenced by the paper itself N/S/C vs some low-impact journal and also number of authors. For medical school I would think either is just icing on an applicant's research experience cake.

 

[LizzyM]

Most of the conference presentations I see are not medical specialties. More along the lines of biochemistry vs. neuroscience vs genetics. Authorship is almost always impressive (getting authorship when your parent is the senior author is less impressive - ahem), conference presentations depend on the topic and the scope (local, regional, national, international, student only, professional, etc).

 

[JustAPhD]

Most of the conference presentations I see are not medical specialties. More along the lines of biochemistry vs. neuroscience vs genetics. Authorship is almost always impressive (getting authorship when your parent is the senior author is less impressive - ahem), conference presentations depend on the topic and the scope (local, regional, national, international, student only, professional, etc).

Of course it's easy if the applicant and lead author's last names are both Werbenjagermanjensen, but honest question, how do you view it for an Asian applicant when in many cases the author names are the same but share no actual family ties?

Edit: Or, as to not stereotype, a last name like "Smith"?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

This thread is awesome. Definitely didn't think that was as impressive as it apparently is. Good news for the OP (and me, actually, so thanks for starting this thread)!

 

[enchantediris]

Of course it's easy if the applicant and lead author's last names are both Werbenjagermanjensen, but honest question, how do you view it for an Asian applicant when in many cases the author names are the same but share no actual family ties?

Edit: Or, as to not stereotype, a last name like "Smith"?

One of my friends was actually an author of a paper when his PI had a very similar but not exact last name (think Johnson vs. Johnsson). They actually had a footnote that said "Note: authors are unrelated"

 

[efle]

Most of the conference presentations I see are not medical specialties. More along the lines of biochemistry vs. neuroscience vs genetics. Authorship is almost always impressive (getting authorship when your parent is the senior author is less impressive - ahem), conference presentations depend on the topic and the scope (local, regional, national, international, student only, professional, etc).

When you see someone with like a 3-4th authorship in a field-specific journal (lets say IF 3-4) how much does that impress you over the person that just had some posters and a thesis?

My impression from undergrad was that nabbing a lower authorship is largely based on luck and the lab you happen to work in, but I'll wager the former student impresses admissions a lot more often.

 

[enchantediris]

When you see someone with like a 3-4th authorship in a field-specific journal (lets say IF 3-4) how much does that impress you over the person that just had some posters and a thesis?

My impression from undergrad was that nabbing a lower authorship is largely based on luck and the lab you happen to work in, but I'll wager the former student impresses admissions a lot more often.

I think some of it has to do with timing as well -- if I had applied last year (without a gap year), I would only have had poster presentations/conference proceedings. However by waiting a year (a.k.a. the amount of time it took for the manuscripts to reach the top of my PI's to-do list), I will hopefully have at least one paper out and the other in submission by the time I apply. The bulk of the work was already done last year, and I would have been able to talk about both projects in the same depth this year vs. last (i.e. the same experience itself), but it just so happens that there were 4-5 papers that needed to be pushed out ahead of mine.

 

[LizzyM]

Of course it's easy if the applicant and lead author's last names are both Werbenjagermanjensen, but honest question, how do you view it for an Asian applicant when in many cases the author names are the same but share no actual family ties?

Edit: Or, as to not stereotype, a last name like "Smith"?

When it catches our eye is when we know the applicant's parent or the applicant's parent is well known nationally. Also, the applicants almost always list their parents names and occupations on the application which raises the index of suspicion. We might miss some where it isn't obvious but we'd be careful not to ding someone where we might be in error.

When you see someone with like a 3-4th authorship in a field-specific journal (lets say IF 3-4) how much does that impress you over the person that just had some posters and a thesis?

A publication of any kind is a step above a poster or thesis.

 

[mimelim]

How unusual is presenting at a national or international clinical (oncology, neurosurgery) conference ? How significant is this to adcoms?

Really? I have friends that got a 3rd-4th authorship for essentially brainless scut work for their grad student. Your own abstract at natl conference at least indicates you did something that wasn't brainless, although it didn't pass peer review or anything.

So really I guess it depends on how much that middle authorship means in adcom's opinion/experience

I think @mimelim has commented on this before. What say you mim? You more impressed by a low authorship or by someone's own project but that hasn't been peer reviewed?

I think once you get into the application for competitive residencies, quantity matters..... Having any authorship > Presentation

It depends on the topic and who the other authors are. If one of the authors is your parent, it is less impressive than if you are not related to the other authors. (true story that I'm not going to tell).

#1 Unusualness - The vast majority of pre-meds applying to medical school do not have publications or national/international presentations. So, at baseline, it is different.

#2 Clinical vs. Basic Science - You need to appreciate that there are substantial differences between disciplines. Clinical conferences, even those that are national/international are very different in terms of what they accept. While it certainly doesn't always hold true, basic science projects nearly always take more energy/work than clinical projects. Retrospective reviews tend to get on conference programs, but don't take a ton of work and can require minimal involvement.

#3 Poster vs. Podium - I can't speak a ton about basic science posters, because I never had any, but certainly in the clinical realm, they are the dumping ground for other things sent to the conference program committee. Our department will not support you going to a conference for a poster unless the manuscript has already been written and ready for submission to the associated journal. Most of our PIs will simply not allow you to submit for poster consideration because they consider it a waste of time. Having had half a dozen posters and even more podium presentations, I see their point. I always check the box when submitting my abstracts that says that my work is only being submitted for plenary sessions and not for posters. The reality is that the quality ranges from, "oh that is interesting" to complete crap. One way of thinking about it is, if the program committee thought that people would want to talk about the topic, they would have given you a plenary session, poster sessions ensure that more people will show up to the conference.

#4 Abstract vs. Paper - At the end of the day, a presentation is just an abstract, which is of minimal importance. Now, if you were an invited to give a talk and gave a presentation on a topic, that is a completely different deal. Having an abstract selected for a podium presentation doesn't indicate how good you are at research or the amount of time/energy you invested. I have given a plenary presentations at the biggest conferences in my field based on ~2 hours of work. If it is a hot topic and you have interesting data, people will invite you. This is in contrast to publications, which require a certain amount of time and effort and despite the fact that a lot of crap still gets published, means that someone at least provisionally went over your data.

At the end of the day, it depends on who is looking at your application. Personally, I think that it is noteworthy that someone is presenting at conferences and certainly should be on your CV. But, compared to publications, they don't mean much. I also personally ignore poster presentations and non-regional/national/international presentations because the quality varies too much. It is just too hard to gauge someone's level of involvement and what they may or may not have gotten out of the experience. Now, basic science research on the other hand, mainly because I don't have as good a feel for it, I have a healthy level of respect for.

I think comparing authorship position to abstract presentation is a bit silly. 3rd/4th author can mean very different things depending on field, politics, etc. In general, it doesn't mean a ton, the same as poster presentations. But, it should still all go on your CV. It is all about context. If I interview someone, I can very easily get a sense for their involvement in research endeavors. It is very hard to fake nuanced understanding of research.

 

[Frogger27]

So which is more impressive... Presenting at an International Conference or 5th author on a decent impact paper (where you are not related to any authors)??

Edit: ? answered well above

 

[Goro]

It's uncommon, and it is good.

How unusual is presenting at a national or international clinical (oncology, neurosurgery) conference ? How significant is this to adcoms?

 

[Goro]

Both are fine. This isn't a zero sum game

So which is more impressive... Presenting at an International Conference or 5th author on a decent impact paper (where you are not related to any authors)??

Edit: ? answered well above

 

[efle]

A publication of any kind is a step above a poster or thesis.

I find this fascinating because I had a friend that did 1 summer of drone work and got a 4th authorship, while another busted butt far more on their thesis (and is now on full ride to a Top 20 - very legit hardworking smart girl). I guess pubs are king though!

 

[LizzyM]

I find this fascinating because I had a friend that did 1 summer of drone work and got a 4th authorship, while another busted butt far more on their thesis (and is now on full ride to a Top 20 - very legit hardworking smart girl). I guess pubs are king though!

Both put you in the range of an interview at a top 20 but for a quick and dirty look at the application, a publication beats a thesis or a poster.

 

[Endoxifen]

Both put you in the range of an interview at a top 20 but for a quick and dirty look at the application, a publication beats a thesis or a poster.

I'm surprised that a single publication would make you attractive to top 20 schools. I was under the impression that research, while good, paled in comparison to other ECs.

 

[JustAPhD]

I'm surprised that a single publication would make you attractive to top 20 schools. I was under the impression that research, while good, paled in comparison to other ECs.

Many of the Top20s are very research-driven, more so the lower in ranking you go. Remember these (generally) are research-powerhouse schools.

 

[Frogger27]

I'm surprised that a single publication would make you attractive to top 20 schools. I was under the impression that research, while good, paled in comparison to other ECs.

I think Productivity such as a middle author pub would check the research box adequately for top 20.. everything else would need to be up to par as well obviously

 

[efle]

I'm surprised that a single publication would make you attractive to top 20 schools. I was under the impression that research, while good, paled in comparison to other ECs.

Top 20s are outliers here, many of them require scholarly projects of their students and send people into academic centers for residency at much, much higher rates than your typical school. They want the "future leaders that will advance medicine" (read: people that will churn out papers at a tertiary specialty clinics for decades)

 

[efle]

I think Productivity such as a middle author pub would check the research box adequately for top 20

It would more than adequately check it! Adequate is like, a few semesters of research for credit and a poster at a local symposium

 

[ditritium monoxide]

Adequate is like, a few semesters of research for credit and a poster at a local symposium

*Necrobump*
Adequate for a top 20? Or adequate to apply to medical school? Just give your opinion.

 

[efle]

*Necrobump*
Adequate for a top 20? Or adequate to apply to medical school? Just give your opinion.

A few semesters of research and a poster is fine for top 20s. It's only at the very extreme research focused schools (like say, Stanford) that much of the study body has already been published going in and/or spent gap year(s) in full time research roles.

You can have very little to no research and be fine to apply to many med schools. Most schools are about supplying docs for the population and not to academic ivory towers.

 

[Green_Goose]

A few semesters of research and a poster is fine for top 20s. It's only at the very extreme research focused schools (like say, Stanford) that much of the study body has already been published going in and/or spent gap year(s) in full time research roles.

You can have very little to no research and be fine to apply to many med schools. Most schools are about supplying docs for the population and not to academic ivory towers.

How bad do you think it would look to these schools if you have several hundred hours worth of research but very little productivity, like not even posters or projects?

 

[efle]

How bad do you think it would look to these schools if you have several hundred hours worth of research but very little productivity, like not even posters or projects?

It's a little odd. Does your school do a symposium for student research? After hundreds of hours I'd def make sure to do that.

 

[Green_Goose]

It's a little odd. Does your school do a symposium for student research? After hundreds of hours I'd def make sure to do that.

I'm pretty sure my school has research symposiums, but they might only be open to students part of specific research programs. And it's kind of hard to present research when I don't actually have a project haha

 

[efle]

I'm pretty sure my school has research symposiums, but they might only be open to students part of specific research programs. And it's kind of hard to present research when I don't actually have a project haha

What have you been working on for hundreds of hours if not a specific project?

 

[Green_Goose]

What have you been working on for hundreds of hours if not a specific project?

I have been working under a couple postdocs who have their own projects, but I haven't technically had one of my own

 

[Welshman]

Just as an added tidbit, I updated my schools on an abstract poster presentation at a National conference where I was the first author and it did 0 good as far as IIs are concerned...

 

[efle]

I have been working under a couple postdocs who have their own projects, but I haven't technically had one of my own

At some point you either have to insist on doing your own small piece or switch labs

 

[Green_Goose]

At some point you either have to insist on doing your own small piece or switch labs

I actually did end up leaving my first lab, and I've been in my new lab for about 3 months. I put in 6-7 hrs/week last semester, and this semester I plan on adding a few more, so I'm really hoping to get some more responsibility, especially since I'm a junior and it's getting closer to application season

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I actually did end up leaving my first lab, and I've been in my new lab for about 3 months. I put in 6-7 hrs/week last semester, and this semester I plan on adding a few more, so I'm really hoping to get some more responsibility, especially since I'm a junior and it's getting closer to application season

I don't want to step on efle's toes, but you gotta just ask. I know it's anecdotal, but all I had to do was ask, and I was able to do my own project with some minimal supervision. It wasn't wet lab stuff though. I'm not sure what you're doing, but I think it probably translates. Just let your intentions be known.

 

[aldol16]

I don't want to step on efle's toes, but you gotta just ask. I know it's anecdotal, but all I had to do was ask, and I was able to do my own project with some minimal supervision. It wasn't wet lab stuff though. I'm not sure what you're doing, but I think it probably translates. Just let your intentions be known.

The process with wet lab work is different because we have to make sure you are capable of doing your own work 1) safely and 2) without wasting valuable resources. The cost of a single experiment can run into the thousands and if we don't trust you to run it, we're not going to give you a project no matter how many times you ask. Post-docs will also generally give projects out to ambitious undergrads but only when we feel they are able to handle it. We're usually more than happy to do so because publishing is very important for us and we have more ideas than time to pursue them. Five first author papers with another couple second authors with undergrads is better than just the five first author papers when we're applying for faculty positions. So it all hinges on why OP's post-docs have not felt comfortable giving out projects yet.

 

[aldol16]

At some point you either have to insist on doing your own small piece or switch labs

I think OP is already doing a small piece of the post-docs' projects. They just aren't at the publication/abstract stage yet or for some reason they have not acknowledged OP. The only situation where insisting on doing your own project will work is if you have an idea and go to the post-doc or PI with it. Otherwise, we're just going to say, "Okay, what project do you have in mind?" If you expect us to think of something and hand it off to you, then you're not exactly deserving of your own project.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The process with wet lab work is different because we have to make sure you are capable of doing your own work 1) safely and 2) without wasting valuable resources. The cost of a single experiment can run into the thousands and if we don't trust you to run it, we're not going to give you a project no matter how many times you ask. Post-docs will also generally give projects out to ambitious undergrads but only when we feel they are able to handle it. We're usually more than happy to do so because publishing is very important for us and we have more ideas than time to pursue them. Five first author papers with another couple second authors with undergrads is better than just the five first author papers when we're applying for faculty positions. So it all hinges on why OP's post-docs have not felt comfortable giving out projects yet.

Fair enough.

 

[ditritium monoxide]

It's a little odd. Does your school do a symposium for student research? After hundreds of hours I'd def make sure to do that.

The issue with that is that I've seen on multiple threads that stuff presented at school conferences hold negligible weight.