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PreMedHopeful

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Which DO schools are prestigious and which aren't as highly reputable? For example, which are the top 10 DO schools that get the most applicants, hardest statistics, and best in terms of reputation?

Let the debate start....CCOM? PCOM? NYCOM? NSU-COM?!
 

JeetKuneDo

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Which DO schools are prestigious and which aren't as highly reputable? For example, which are the top 10 DO schools that get the most applicants, hardest statistics, and best in terms of reputation?

Let the debate start....CCOM? PCOM? NYCOM? NSU-COM?!
I'm not too sure if there are more prestigious schools, but I'd say there are more established schools that have been around a long time. I'd name PCOM, Western, NYCOM, DMU, LECOM, Nova and CCOM just to name a few. Personally, I'd love to go to a school near a big city (i.e. PCOM/CCOM/NYCOM) or nenar my home (Western).
 

Cp22kjer

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Hard to say and if you search there are plenty of similar threads.

The most prestigious for some will be whatever school they are attending, so it's hard to get an answer on SDN (or anywhere for that matter).

US News has a few schools ranked- take it for what it's worth.
 

Exalya

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UNTCOM does a lot of research and has a fairly good reputation, I'm given to understand. It was ranked very highly by US News, as well.
 

elftown

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Which DO schools are prestigious and which aren't as highly reputable? For example, which are the top 10 DO schools that get the most applicants, hardest statistics, and best in terms of reputation?

Let the debate start....CCOM? PCOM? NYCOM? NSU-COM?!
according to that, you should toss UMDNJ-SOM up there. open house indicated the average MCAT is 28. compared to PCOM where the average is 26.
 

slim78

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No one will think higher of you for graduating from one DO school as opposed to another.
 

bioman2006

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Yeah, there's much more parity among DO schools than MD schools.
 

TeamZissou

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USNEWS rankings for primary care are in my opinion worthless. Their criteria by which they rank has a lot to do with how many of the grads go into primary care fields. This is a random consequence of whatever the class wanted to go into. It doesn't necessarily reflect on the quality of primary care education at that school.

At least the research rankings are largely based on the amount of funding a school gets. So those are somewhat useful but still other criteria included in this ranking isn't objective.
 

drdave2be

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To D.O. school that accepts you :xf:
Absolutely agreed. I'm an idealist, so brace yourself for a mouthful of mushy garbage (but garbage I believe in). Your inquiry is legit. Like most of us, you are asking a question that seeks to ascertain how we can acheive the best possible osteopathic education. It makes sense to determine which school is "best" and apply. Afterall, these rankings are available. Medical schools are 'ranked' by The US News and World Report.

How they are ranked:
http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/best-graduate-schools/2009/04/22/how-we-calculate-the-graduate-school-rankings.html?s_cid=related-links:TOP

Interestingly enough, although most DO schools are listed in the report, none (at least none of which I checked out) are ranked?!? Hmm, it seems they are giving priority to allopathic programs? Imagine that. Now, I understand that your question has probably been asked to fill that void - and, personally, I think it is a valid question. Since the US News and World Report ranks schools in terms of 'primary care' and 'research', it would be nice to know who is "best". This 'data' is not available. With a relatively narrow list of osteopathic schools to choose from, the best we can do is apply broadly and hope to get in somewhere. Each school is unique in terms of location, mission statement, year of establishment, strength of OMM program, etc. Ranking these is possible, but subjective, hence ranking schools may be useless to determine which school is best for any given individual.

Here's where the mushy garbage starts. After taking Chocolate Bear's advice, and reading "The D.O.s - Osteopathic Medicine in America", I have a much clearer perspective regarding the history of osteopathic medicine. From one man's vision arose a myriad of competing schools, most of which were diabolically working against each other to attract students. To make a long story short, eventually the AOA was formed to UNIFY the efforts of these schools - ensure each was supporting the osteopathic mission, regulating degree requirements, etc. After all, D.O.s were a minority, struggling for recognition in the face of allopathic oppression and persecution. In terms of standing together, I would hope that continue to do so today. It is within us to do so. As a minority (based on sheer numbers alone), it is up to our generation to ensure that the osteopathic philosophy does not get lost along the way. It is exciting that osteopathic medicine has virtually evolved to adopt a modern medicine approach to diagnosis and treatment. Drugs, surgery, OMM - we got it all! What's most important to me, is the philisophy. While I have read and agreed with numerous posts stating that OMM is rarely used or only used as an adjunt, etc., I believe that OMM is only one component used (or not) in today's osteopathic field. Simply put, I believe that it is important to retain the ideals of our field as the backbone of our approach in treating people. While many students shoot that down as propaganda, I won't - it's something i believe in (I never said MDs don't feel the same way;)).

With that said, I hope to one day become an osteopathic physician. I will not compare my school to others as better or worse, but will be thankful that I got in somewhere, and appreciate the fact that I am on a massive team of DO's across the country, practicing a shared apporach that will hopefully never die.

Ok, go ahead and persecute me:laugh:
 

Nasrudin

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The whole calculus of prestige. And then the question of an Osteopathic philosophy--if you believe there is such a thing. These things go together like high heel shoes and hogs.

The mere application of common sense would prohibit the asking of such a question.

The only valid question. Is whose got a teaching hospital. Whose got a more solid batch of rotation sites. Perhaps the longer standing outfits have the advantage....but prestige....?

A DO school, like any school, will carry some local weight. It's unlikely you will gain much from this or that DO school beyond that.
 

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Nobody goes to a DO school for the prestige. However some schools are a little better than others. The original 5 are well established and probably well respected in their communities. The state schools are probably better funded than most.
 

wongb18c

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If you want prestige go to a MD program. Won't get any with DO.
 

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If you want prestige, go to GA-PCOM. In terms of name recognition, we really can't be touched. When I talk about our school to people within the medical community, I often get "that's a really good school. So how much longer will you be here this summer, before you head back to Philadelphia?"

From non-medical people, I usually get "there's a medical school here in gwinnett?"
 

Just Joshin

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Nobody goes to a DO school for the prestige. However some schools are a little better than others. The original 5 are well established and probably well respected in their communities. The state schools are probably better funded than most.
What are the original five?
 

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I've been to 2 - 3 hospitals where residents and attendings made the comment that PCOM students/interns/residents were generally better than those from other schools.
 

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I've heard Michigan State's DO school is very good, perhaps even better than Michigan State's own MD program (yes they have both). It's hardly definitive information, though.
 

wongb18c

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What a douche.
Lol he called me a douche. I wasn't trying to put DO down compared to MD, I'm a DO student myself. Society recognizes MD as more "prestigous" than DO, am I douche for stating the fact?
 
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PreMedHopeful

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LOL I LOVE THE POSTS!!....first of all, I was asking about prestige, because lets say I want to get a competitive residency for an allopathic residency program...lets say John Hopkins or Mayo Clinic....I know they prefer MD applicants so can I go to Midwestern, NSU-COM, or PCOM and still get a good residency??

My rude cousin who is an MD doing residency at a prestigious hospital told me DO's don't get prestigious residencies and then I snapped back saying a doctor is a doctor and your patients won't care and he shut up then....

so I actually like the DO philosophy more because DO's I have shadowed have been more human and compassionate to their patients; it's not about quickly going through an exam to make more money.....I think FMG's and DO's are better doctors because they worked hard to get where they are and get licensed...some MD's are awesome, but so far I haven't shadowed one that blew me away....

I still don't buy the OMM thing or everyone would be a DO and chiropracters would not exist....

Personally, I think PCOM, Western, CCOM, NYCOM, and KCOM just because it was the first DO school ever....

sorry if I didn't mention your DO school, but I didn't mention mine either because it's not reputable to tell you the truth according to what I have heard but in the end a medical school is a medical school and even my DO school has a fantastic, high-tech, new facility that prepares med students for a changing world of medicine
 
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PreMedHopeful

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also my top DO schools were based on location-big urban city=more options/choices=greater chance of famous hospitals/programs....and I think DO schools should grow faster...and get to about 3 new DO schools each year and one in every state and then maybe it would solve the doctor shortage problem...because there are enough MD schools with about 130 and DO is like 30 only....so lets go DO!!!!!!! haha my crazy dreams
 

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Prestige is in the eye of the beholder.

Keep in mind that (as of 2005), only 27.7% of the population have bachelor degrees. So 3 out of 4 adults DO NOT have a bachelor degrees. To them, getting a bachelor degree will seem prestigious.

Only 9.4% of the population holds graduate or professional degrees. Only 2% have doctoral degrees (half of those are research-based doctorates)

Now some people see getting a degree from a big name university (such as a large state school system) as prestigious. Others (elite private universities) may not.

Graduating from a DO school will give you something that over 98% of the US population does not have.

With all this concern about prestige, to whom are you trying to impress?

As for your "rude cousin", tell him/her that he/she is woefully misinformed (whether he/she has an MD or not is irrelevant). Just check out the match lists posted every year and you will see recognizable names of places and programs.


Source for statistics: US Census data www.census.gov
 
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PreMedHopeful

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lol well be honest, most DO students go to DO school because they got rejected from MD schools due to not as high mcat/gpa scores...I know very few that picked DO when they had over 30 MCAT and over 3.7 gpa...DO is the easier route/easier admissions by a little but still reputation matters when you want to work somewhere prestigious...but I'm still ignorant so I dont know but I do know is people will frown upon you if you explain to them you are a carribean doctor or DO if you explain the gpa/mcat...people want the smartest doctor but I think compassion is important tooo
 

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Honestly, if you're so deeply concerned about the name and "prestige" of a medical school, then you don't belong in this profession. Sorry.

Your medical career potential is 99% due to your own hard work and 1% due to luck. Your ignorant cousin likely has never seen a DO school's matchlist. Hell, VCOM just graduated their 3rd class ever and have landed residencies like Rads at Wake Forest, EM at Hopkins, and Gen Surg at Vanderbilt, among other excellent acheivements. I know one LECOM-Bradenton grad got into ortho at UF, and LECOM-B is only a few years old as well. PCOM-Georgia's first graduating class ever had two people match into Rads at the Medical College of Georgia. If you bust your ass hard enough, then the medical school name on your diploma won't matter. Some idiot pre-meds need to find better outlets for their ego problems than the damn "prestige" of a medical school they're likely not going to get accepted to anyways.

Yes, TT, this thread makes me want to down a bottle of Librium.
 

TexasTriathlete

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lol well be honest, most DO students go to DO school because they got rejected from MD schools due to not as high mcat/gpa scores...I know very few that picked DO when they had over 30 MCAT and over 3.7 gpa...DO is the easier route/easier admissions by a little but still reputation matters when you want to work somewhere prestigious...but I'm still ignorant so I dont know but I do know is people will frown upon you if you explain to them you are a carribean doctor or DO if you explain the gpa/mcat...people want the smartest doctor but I think compassion is important tooo
this is an awesome run-on sentence
 

wongb18c

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Honestly, if you're so deeply concerned about the name and "prestige" of a medical school, then you don't belong in this profession. Sorry.

Your medical career potential is 99% due to your own hard work and 1% due to luck. Your ignorant cousin likely has never seen a DO school's matchlist. Hell, VCOM just graduated their 3rd class ever and have landed residencies like Rads at Wake Forest, EM at Hopkins, and Gen Surg at Vanderbilt, among other excellent acheivements. I know one LECOM-Bradenton grad got into ortho at UF, and LECOM-B is only a few years old as well. PCOM-Georgia's first graduating class ever had two people match into Rads at the Medical College of Georgia. If you bust your ass hard enough, then the medical school name on your diploma won't matter. Some idiot pre-meds need to find better outlets for their ego problems than the damn "prestige" of a medical school they're likely not going to get accepted to anyways.

Yes, TT, this thread makes me want to down a bottle of Librium.
And even if you don't match those highly competitive residencies, you're still going to have a fulfilling career as a doctor. Once in the working world most people will be too busy to care about what medical school you graduated from. Study hard, score well on standarized board exams, work hard as a resident and learn, then show that you have the medical knowledge and prove to people that you have the capability to treat patients - in the end that's what matters. At that point, you're not any less than your MD or DO counterparts imo. You don't have to be the "smartest" doctor, the majority of doctors (there are exceptions of course) don't have to be exceptionally bright to succeed, like most other careers, it comes with training and experience. There are plenty of people out there that are equal or far smarter than doctors..... plenty.
 
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PreMedHopeful

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hahaha I love TT, he's so amusing and yes prestige doesn't matter because in the end the med school you end up going to is the best med school but still I don't think people should not work hard in college, party like crazy, end up in Caribbean and somehow then working hard and passing boards??? like they kinda cheated the system into becoming a doctor...my parents always get mad at me when I say...I can always go to the Caribbean...and they say, you just dont want to work hard...I say no, that's my Plan C, back up plan, and in the end FMG's are still medical graduates and end up getting residency.....
 

JeetKuneDo

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hahaha I love TT, he's so amusing and yes prestige doesn't matter because in the end the med school you end up going to is the best med school but still I don't think people should not work hard in college, party like crazy, end up in Caribbean and somehow then working hard and passing boards??? like they kinda cheated the system into becoming a doctor...my parents always get mad at me when I say...I can always go to the Caribbean...and they say, you just dont want to work hard...I say no, that's my Plan C, back up plan, and in the end FMG's are still medical graduates and end up getting residency.....
They don't cheat man. They pay the price by having to work much, much harder to become a physician. I thought we were talking about DO schools, not Caribbean.
 
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PreMedHopeful

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students with lower test scores/gpa tend to apply to DO schools, however this trend is decreasing and DO schools are raising standards and increasing minimums stats....still MD average MCAT 32, while DO is around 27....big difference....and caribbean is just like low 20's....
 

Nasrudin

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students with lower test scores/gpa tend to apply to DO schools, however this trend is decreasing and DO schools are raising standards and increasing minimums stats....still MD average MCAT 32, while DO is around 27....big difference....and caribbean is just like low 20's....
where i come from. people who patter on like this get their @ss kicked. ask your question get your answer and move along kid. stop pissing on others parade.
 

TexasTriathlete

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students with lower test scores/gpa tend to apply to DO schools, however this trend is decreasing and DO schools are raising standards and increasing minimums stats....still MD average MCAT 32, while DO is around 27....big difference....and caribbean is just like low 20's....
How old are you?
 

Dissonance

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They don't cheat man. They pay the price by having to work much, much harder to become a physician. I thought we were talking about DO schools, not Caribbean.

This poster is correct. If you get into ANY America medical school and make it through the other side of residency, its a HUGE accomplishment. As someone stated before less than 1% of the population has done this.

I've known several who went to the carib, and very few who actually made it back. Sure it might be easier getting in, but getting out is the problem. Its a drastic step to pick up your life and move away to a third world country, and on top of that learn medicine. It's no joke.

Kudos I say to anyone who becomes any type of physician. It's an undertaking very few try for or succeed in (when compared to the rest of the population) .

lastly, where the f*ck do some posters get their information? I mean, I must have ghosted on these forums for almost a year before even signing up, reading everything. The same questions over and over and over. Jeezus. Google it if you cant figure out the SDN search function, or something!
 

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lastly, where the f*ck do some posters get their information? I mean, I must have ghosted on these forums for almost a year before even signing up, reading everything. The same questions over and over and over. Jeezus. Google it if you cant figure out the SDN search function, or something!
+1, quoted for truth sir.
 

TeamZissou

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This thread is just embarrassing. Honestly is "prestige" worth talking about? More important questions are where do schools do their rotations, how many electives to they give, do you get electives your 3rd year, how much board prep time, how much is tuition, do you have family close by, do they offer elective classes that interest you, are you required to do 8 vs 12 weeks of FM 4th year, what are the campus facilities/library like? The list goes on and on so stop worrying about perception and start asking the important questions.

I don't think enough people have been shown up by someone who most of their pre-reqs online at the local community college, which supposedly should mean they didn't get as much of a quality education as the kid at the private university. If you havn't learned by now that there are exceptions to all these preconceived stereotypes then you are in for a rude awakening.
 
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PreMedHopeful

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man doctors are so mean and rude....this is American and I'm free to ask any question I like, behave bitches...seriously, if you don't have anything nice to say, then why bother even wasting your damn time answering and actually reading the bull**** that is my questions....

There is a such thing called prestige or Harvard and Mayo Clinic wouldn't be well-known reputable schools...but thanks to my "stupid" question, I learned that PRESTIGE DOESN'T MATTER IN DO SCHOOLS

BUT HONESTLY ALL YOUR DO MED STUDENTS, MAJORITY OF YOUR CLASS TRIED TO GET INTO A MD PROGRAM AND HAD LOWER STATS AND WENT DO ROUTE....SOME PICK DO FOR PHILOSOPHY BUT STILL MAJORITY!

ALSO IF DO=MD THEN WHY THE HELL DO DO'S NOT GET INTO RESIDENCIES AT PRESTIGIOUS PROGRAMS LIKE UOFCHICAGO OR MASSGEN....THEY TAKE THE USLME AND COMLEX BUT THEY WILL ACCEPT THE MD JUST BECAUSE THEY STILL THINK MD>DO
 
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PreMedHopeful

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Do=md in terms of profession but reputation, perception, and philosophy will never be the same...its like apple vs pc....the debate will always go on...

Boxers or briefs haha?
 

Exalya

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man doctors are so mean and rude....this is American and I'm free to ask any question I like, behave bitches...seriously, if you don't have anything nice to say, then why bother even wasting your damn time answering and actually reading the bull**** that is my questions....

There is a such thing called prestige or Harvard and Mayo Clinic wouldn't be well-known reputable schools...but thanks to my "stupid" question, I learned that PRESTIGE DOESN'T MATTER IN DO SCHOOLS

BUT HONESTLY ALL YOUR DO MED STUDENTS, MAJORITY OF YOUR CLASS TRIED TO GET INTO A MD PROGRAM AND HAD LOWER STATS AND WENT DO ROUTE....SOME PICK DO FOR PHILOSOPHY BUT STILL MAJORITY!

ALSO IF DO=MD THEN WHY THE HELL DO DO'S NOT GET INTO RESIDENCIES AT PRESTIGIOUS PROGRAMS LIKE UOFCHICAGO OR MASSGEN....THEY TAKE THE USLME AND COMLEX BUT THEY WILL ACCEPT THE MD JUST BECAUSE THEY STILL THINK MD>DO
I would suggest you read one of the matchlists for a DO school. UNTCOM (the only one I know really well) had multiple students go on to Johns Hopkins, Cleveland Clinic, Mass Gen, Baylor, and a variety of other top-tier residencies. It's about what you put into your med school education, not about the name they give you on your diploma.
 
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I'm personally really interested in Mayo (not for the "prestige"), and I saw several DO students from different schools match lists going to Mayo for residency. So, yes, DO students can get "prestigious" residencies.
 

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I'm personally really interested in Mayo (not for the "prestige"), and I saw several DO students from different schools match lists going to Mayo for residency. So, yes, DO students can get "prestigious" residencies.
Agreed. Im from MN and shadowed numerous DO's at Mayo hospitals and clinics. Schools represented were DMU, KCOM, LECOM, PCSOM, UMDNJ-SOM, and a few others I can't remember.
 

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man doctors are so mean and rude....this is American and I'm free to ask any question I like, behave bitches...seriously, if you don't have anything nice to say, then why bother even wasting your damn time answering and actually reading the bull**** that is my questions....

There is a such thing called prestige or Harvard and Mayo Clinic wouldn't be well-known reputable schools...but thanks to my "stupid" question, I learned that PRESTIGE DOESN'T MATTER IN DO SCHOOLS

BUT HONESTLY ALL YOUR DO MED STUDENTS, MAJORITY OF YOUR CLASS TRIED TO GET INTO A MD PROGRAM AND HAD LOWER STATS AND WENT DO ROUTE....SOME PICK DO FOR PHILOSOPHY BUT STILL MAJORITY!

ALSO IF DO=MD THEN WHY THE HELL DO DO'S NOT GET INTO RESIDENCIES AT PRESTIGIOUS PROGRAMS LIKE UOFCHICAGO OR MASSGEN....THEY TAKE THE USLME AND COMLEX BUT THEY WILL ACCEPT THE MD JUST BECAUSE THEY STILL THINK MD>DO
Please make it stop.
 

TeamZissou

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man doctors are so mean and rude....this is American and I'm free to ask any question I like, behave bitches...seriously, if you don't have anything nice to say, then why bother even wasting your damn time answering and actually reading the bull**** that is my questions....

There is a such thing called prestige or Harvard and Mayo Clinic wouldn't be well-known reputable schools...but thanks to my "stupid" question, I learned that PRESTIGE DOESN'T MATTER IN DO SCHOOLS

BUT HONESTLY ALL YOUR DO MED STUDENTS, MAJORITY OF YOUR CLASS TRIED TO GET INTO A MD PROGRAM AND HAD LOWER STATS AND WENT DO ROUTE....SOME PICK DO FOR PHILOSOPHY BUT STILL MAJORITY!

ALSO IF DO=MD THEN WHY THE HELL DO DO'S NOT GET INTO RESIDENCIES AT PRESTIGIOUS PROGRAMS LIKE UOFCHICAGO OR MASSGEN....THEY TAKE THE USLME AND COMLEX BUT THEY WILL ACCEPT THE MD JUST BECAUSE THEY STILL THINK MD>DO
Amazing, you get angry because we are "rude" and yet when we do offer you advice on what is really important you simply shrug it off as if it were never said.

More important questions are where do schools do their rotations, how many electives to they give, do you get electives your 3rd year, how much board prep time, how much is tuition, do you have family close by, do they offer elective classes that interest you, are you required to do 8 vs 12 weeks of FM 4th year, what are the campus facilities/library like? The list goes on and on so stop worrying about perception and start asking the important questions.
Go look at the residents at these places, they both have DOs at their institutions.

As far as your whole stats argument, it is worthless. I know people who got into my state school this year with MCATs of 23-25 (more than just 2 people in this range). Does this mean they will be better doctors than me because they are MDs? Or there is the stupid argument that I'll be a better doctor because I have a higher MCAT. Both are arguments of premeds who are so obsessed with statistics in their perfect world that they can't even comprehend someone would turn down JHU gas for Vermont. (It happened this year because the person wanted to be in that location and loved their program.)

So please if you are so concerned about "prestige" stop arguing with people on SDN and go cure cancer, because as was already stated, it is what you DO (no pun intended) that brings you prestige.
 

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Not only is this dude like 12 y.o. but his english style reminds me of the nigerian scam guys... :laugh:
Now that is some funny sh!t!!!!!!!!!

When I saw this thread posted I honestly thought to myself "Wow, another one...". Know what's sad about that?? I HAVEN'T BEEN AROUND THIS BOARD THAT LONG!!!:laugh: I really honestly figured this would be moved or drop off the first page due to lack of responses and several people would say search, but they didn't. The page has 40+ replies to a question that is asked and answered repetetively... don't get it. I think what sucked me in (and maybe others) was the "let the debate begin".... like the OP thought this was something that hadn't been raked over a million times and he/she was pioneering a new idea. At any rate... this is boring, the OP doesn't understand, and there are numerous threads dealing with this... let's let him/her waste his own energy searching rather than us wasting ours by trying to reason... it simply doesn't work.

From the writing the OP is obviously biased and condescending towards DOs (like some other posters on here who talk about how "low" the average DO applicant is vs MD yet they themselves are applying for DO programs...) and shouldnt be one. I think it's safe to say that most people that apply to DO would seriously consider becoming an MD if it was an option, but for many it is not. DO programs give the person with enough drive and determination to do what they want... become a DOCTOR... without being worried about what's behind the name. The whole idea of "prestige" is based on merit and elitism, something that is not so prevalent in the DO culture as it is in the MD culture, that is why you don't see/hear people talking about the prestige of a DO program... it's not a factor. There really is a difference between DO and MD programs philosophies and this is just one of them. If you don't like that DO programs don't empahsize their prestige, don't be one. Moreover, if you are not PROUD to be a DO, don't be one. Do yourself the favor of not REGRETTING taking the "easy way out" by becoming a DO because you will always look back and wish you were an MD instead, and moreover, do the DO community a favor by not polluting the waters with your dissatisfaction.

God, can we let this die now... can't believe I spent 10 minutes of my life on this.... now I am regretting it...

P.S... Immediately after posting I received an email that is full of funny and clever sayings (get them every morning) and I thought one pertained very well to this thread and the OP's attitude...

Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
 
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PreMedHopeful

10+ Year Member
Jun 11, 2008
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Pre-Medical
That was hillarious, thanks guys! I appreciate it all the new stuff I learned including that DO's get reputable residencies...I was just in a bad mood because my cousin made me think DO's get horrible residencies...in the end here's the clincher:

I'm going to be a DO medical student for several different reasons....and I just don't like the bias from certain doctors, certain people, and certain hospitals...but in the end it doesn't matter what THEY think...It matters on what I think...and personally in my mind it will always be:

DO=MD in all aspects of medicine....just because it's a different philosophy doesn't change the same element of medicine, you diagnose disease, treat patients that are ill

SORRY FOR MY LACK OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE PRESTIGE, WHICH DOESN'T MATTER IN THE END, AND JUST REMEMBER I GO TO SDN TO LEARN ABOUT STUFF LIKE THIS IN ORDER TO LEARN
 
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