Prestigious Undergrad

[halekulani]

i don't get why people feel that they should be entitled to some sort of handicap because of a path/course they chose.

"i chose X path so it should be acceptable to be just average in my class, which equals a C+"

using ranking/prestige/name of a school to justify lower grades is simply an excuse.

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[fizzle]

*edit*

I have this terrible habit of following up on tangents that I see in these threads. In order to keep this thread on topic, I've deleted my post

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Nothing to contribute, but this thread is really interesting to read, especially people's reasons for why reputation is beneficial or not.

 

[PinkPlumpy]

Well, I guess no one will agree...
But I love my Ivy. As I mentioned, I feel like I am learning a lot more than I would at my state school. Maybe that will translate to a higher MCAT score?
They will give out As (and A-s) to 10% of the class which for the chem class would have translated to about a 95% given that the standard deviation was generally between 15 and 20. So you have to be the cream of the cream to get an A.
Thanks for all the feedback.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

i don't get why people feel that they should be entitled to some sort of handicap because of a path/course they chose.

"i chose X path so it should be acceptable to be just average in my class, which equals a C+"

using ranking/prestige/name of a school to justify lower grades is simply an excuse.

The reason med schools adjust for the difficulty & reputation of the undergraduate institution is that they know that kids who have been challenged at tough schools are more likely to succeed and less likely to quit than students who chose the easiest possible path through undergrad. It's also a matter of fairness. If a kid majors in Physics at the University of Chicago shouldn't that kid get a break over a psych major from a realitively easy school. I think fairness demands that.

 

[luvumeanit]

Let's sum up some "truths."

Truth: Harvard, Yale and Princeton are prestigious schools in the sense that they have a worldwide reputation for excellence in education and extremely high standards for admission.

Truth: The students who are admitted to those schools are highly intelligent, motivated, industrious, etc., and have performed at exceedingly high levels, academic and otherwise, in secondary school.

Truth: Legacies, minorities, geographic distribution, disadvantaged status, athletes -- even with those "crutches," it is still extremely difficult to gain admission because there are A LOT of qualified applicants who have some of those added boosts. (NOTE: legacies at Harvard still have SATs in the 700s and at least a 3.7 high school GPA, and usually higher in both, plus remarkable achievements in other areas. The competition among "children of Harvard alums" is fierce.)

Truth: The educational and other opportunities at those institutions is nothing short or remarkable. Astounding, actually. And not just in the classroom.

Truth: Any student who does even reasonably well in those environments, given the intelligence/other qualities they possessed upon arrival, is likely to be a person any medical school would like to take a good look at. Their job in selecting candidates to interview is so daunting, why would they NOT piggy-back on the stiff admissions policies of those 3 schools and the excellence of the education they provide.

Truth: Arguments about grade inflation, harder courses, or anything like that are not relevant. NO medical school believes that a Harvard grad had an easy time because of grade inflation and, therefore, they should take the state school student who got As with a tough curve. That would be illogical given all the other truths, and adcoms are nothing if not logical.

Truth: Adcoms are also risk-averse. They want to be sure that the students they select will succeed. I would be willing to bet a lot of money that NO Yale/Harvard/Princeton grad who entered with a B or above average, did NOT succeed, and probably excelled, in medical school.

Truth: Accordingly, many/most/all medical schools give EXTRA CREDIT to those graduates in the admission process. Of course, they must have the other pieces of the pie: research, volunteerism, good personal skills.

Assumption based on those truths: You can have a lower GPA from Yale than a person from a less prestigious school and get in ahead of that person. Not just "equal," but lower GPA -- 3.4 versus 3.8.

 

[FlowLimited]

Let's sum up some "truths."

Truth: Harvard, Yale and Princeton are prestigious schools in the sense that they have a worldwide reputation for excellence in education and extremely high standards for admission.

Truth: The students who are admitted to those schools are highly intelligent, motivated, industrious, etc., and have performed at exceedingly high levels, academic and otherwise, in secondary school.

Truth: Legacies, minorities, geographic distribution, disadvantaged status, athletes -- even with those "crutches," it is still extremely difficult to gain admission because there are A LOT of qualified applicants who have some of those added boosts. (NOTE: legacies at Harvard still have SATs in the 700s and at least a 3.7 high school GPA, and usually higher in both, plus remarkable achievements in other areas. The competition among "children of Harvard alums" is fierce.)

Truth: The educational and other opportunities at those institutions is nothing short or remarkable. Astounding, actually. And not just in the classroom.

Truth: Any student who does even reasonably well in those environments, given the intelligence/other qualities they possessed upon arrival, is likely to be a person any medical school would like to take a good look at. Their job in selecting candidates to interview is so daunting, why would they NOT piggy-back on the stiff admissions policies of those 3 schools and the excellence of the education they provide.

Truth: Arguments about grade inflation, harder courses, or anything like that are not relevant. NO medical school believes that a Harvard grad had an easy time because of grade inflation and, therefore, they should take the state school student who got As with a tough curve. That would be illogical given all the other truths, and adcoms are nothing if not logical.

Truth: Adcoms are also risk-averse. They want to be sure that the students they select will succeed. I would be willing to bet a lot of money that NO Yale/Harvard/Princeton grad who entered with a B or above average, did NOT succeed, and probably excelled, in medical school.

Truth: Accordingly, many/most/all medical schools give EXTRA CREDIT to those graduates in the admission process. Of course, they must have the other pieces of the pie: research, volunteerism, good personal skills.

Assumption based on those truths: You can have a lower GPA from Yale than a person from a less prestigious school and get in ahead of that person. Not just "equal," but lower GPA -- 3.4 versus 3.8.

Truth: Attending one of these prestigious schools authorizes you to refer to your opinions/guesses as facts.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

The reason med schools adjust for the difficulty & reputation of the undergraduate institution is that they know that kids who have been challenged at tough schools are more likely to succeed and less likely to quit than students who chose the easiest possible path through undergrad. It's also a matter of fairness. If a kid majors in Physics at the University of Chicago shouldn't that kid get a break over a psych major from a realitively easy school. I think fairness demands that.

You're completely wrong. First, you assume that the kid who didn't go to the Ivy school is just lazy when there are many reasons a person chooses a lower ranked school. Sometimes finances, sometimes they need to stay close to family, sometimes they just like their home school better.

Second, no the kid who majored in physics at Univ. of Chicago should NOT get a break over the kid who majored in psych at another school. We all make choices in life. The kid CHOSE to major in physics at U of Chicago. He shouldn't be rewarded just because he likes physics. He could have chosen basketweaving or pottery to major in. He decided he was good enough at physics to major in it, fine, prove it with a high GPA. What you're essentially saying is that the kid who had an interest in psych should be punished.

 

[luvumeanit]

You're completely wrong. First, you assume that the kid who didn't go to the Ivy school is just lazy when there are many reasons a person chooses a lower ranked school. Sometimes finances, sometimes they need to stay close to family, sometimes they just like their home school better.

Second, no the kid who majored in physics at Univ. of Chicago should NOT get a break over the kid who majored in psych at another school. We all make choices in life. The kid CHOSE to major in physics at U of Chicago. He shouldn't be rewarded just because he likes physics. He could have chosen basketweaving or pottery to major in. He decided he was good enough at physics to major in it, fine, prove it with a high GPA. What you're essentially saying is that the kid who had an interest in psych should be punished.

Focus. Try to follow my logic: I am not saying that highly qualified students at state schools will NOT get in; I am saying that Harvard/Yale/Princeton grads have a leg up. This is a GOOD thing if you went to those schools, but not a BAD thing if you did not.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Focus. Try to follow my logic: I am not saying that highly qualified students at state schools will NOT get in; I am saying that Harvard/Yale/Princeton grads have a leg up. This is a GOOD thing if you went to those schools, but not a BAD thing if you did not.

Instead of being an asshat, why don't you focus and follow MY logic? I wasn't replying to you. I was replying to Obnoxious Dad.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

You're completely wrong. First, you assume that the kid who didn't go to the Ivy school is just lazy when there are many reasons a person chooses a lower ranked school. Sometimes finances, sometimes they need to stay close to family, sometimes they just like their home school better.

Second, no the kid who majored in physics at Univ. of Chicago should NOT get a break over the kid who majored in psych at another school. We all make choices in life. The kid CHOSE to major in physics at U of Chicago. He shouldn't be rewarded just because he likes physics. He could have chosen basketweaving or pottery to major in. He decided he was good enough at physics to major in it, fine, prove it with a high GPA. What you're essentially saying is that the kid who had an interest in psych should be punished.

I didn't assume anyone was lazy. I do know that the kid from U of C took the harder path and should not be punished for it.

The job of an admissions committee is to pick the students who would make the best physicians. Do you want them to pick people who are averse to hard work? Do you want them to pick people who aren't the most talented and best prepared?

Even if a kid doesn't have a lot of money and wants to stay close to home, in virtually every state there is at least one state school where a kid could be challenged in an honors science program or an engineering program. Those kids should have a leg up on people who took the easiest way out. If you picked an easy major at a place that had relatively easy admissions standards that was your call. Live with it.

 

[Brodiewankenobi]

Well, I guess no one will agree...
But I love my Ivy. As I mentioned, I feel like I am learning a lot more than I would at my state school. Maybe that will translate to a higher MCAT score?
They will give out As (and A-s) to 10% of the class which for the chem class would have translated to about a 95% given that the standard deviation was generally between 15 and 20. So you have to be the cream of the cream to get an A.
Thanks for all the feedback.

I am calling troll on this one. No one should be this full of themself.

 

[135892]

i don't get why people feel that they should be entitled to some sort of handicap because of a path/course they chose.

"i chose X path so it should be acceptable to be just average in my class, which equals a C+"

using ranking/prestige/name of a school to justify lower grades is simply an excuse.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it much tougher to get a C at Harvard when you're competing with mostly very bright students, as opposed to getting a C at a lower-ranked state school. Hell, I could not study at all and maintain a C average at my state school, but I bet this wouldn't be the case at say MIT. Going to a top ranked school shouldn't, and won't make up for a real poor gpa, but it does play a factor if your gpa is a bit on the lower side.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

I didn't assume anyone was lazy. I do know that the kid from U of C took the harder path and should not be punished for it.

He wouldn't be punished if his GPA is high. If he got a 3.1 at U of Chicago in Physics, he absolutely should not leapfrog in front of someone who majored in psych with a 3.8 elsewhere. He had a choice and he chose Physics. Tough if he couldn't cut it.

The job of an admissions committee is to pick the students who would make the best physicians. Do you want them to pick people who are averse to hard work?

Just by asking that question, you assume that the person majoring in psych is averse to hard work. You know nothing.

Do you want them to pick people who aren't the most talented and best prepared?

So majoring in physics or engineering makes someone the most talented and best prepared for med school? Again, you know nothing.

Even if a kid doesn't have a lot of money and wants to stay close to home, in virtually every state there is at least one state school where a kid could be challenged in an honors science program or an engineering program. Those kids should have a leg up on people who took the easiest way out. If you picked an easy major at a place that had relatively easy admissions standards that was your call. Live with it.

What you're saying contradicts EVERY adcom member who's posted on SDN. By your standards, if someone doesn't major in engineering or a hard science, they aren't qualified for med school?

Now I understand what your handle means.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it much tougher to get a C at Harvard when you're competing with mostly very bright students, as opposed to getting a C at a lower-ranked state school. Hell, I could not study at all and maintain a C average at my state school, but I bet this wouldn't be the case at say MIT. Going to a top ranked school shouldn't, and won't make up for a real poor gpa, but it does play a factor if your gpa is a bit on the lower side.

MIT is different than Harvard. There was a report out a couple of years ago that said that the majority of Harvard's graduating classes graduate with a GPA of 3.7. That doesn't happen at any state school. At my state school, the class average in most of the science courses is a C- or lower. My sister had a Biochem course where the class average on all three exams was below 69. Also, some schools will curve toward the bottom so if the class average is a 80, they will curve everyone down 5 pts.

 

[PinkPlumpy]

I am calling troll on this one. No one should be this full of themself.

I am not being full of myself. I am entitled to have an opinion and my opinion is that my ivy has a better intellectual atmosphere than my state school. I am not saying that state school kids are any less smart than top school students. I was just asking if med schools take into account that going to a hard school generally means that it is harder to get a good grade.
If coming on SDN for advice and having an opinion is considered being a troll, then so be it.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

He wouldn't be punished if his GPA is high. If he got a 3.1 at U of Chicago in Physics, he absolutely should not leapfrog in front of someone who majored in psych with a 3.8 elsewhere. He had a choice and he chose Physics. Tough if he couldn't cut it.

Just by asking that question, you assume that the person majoring in psych is averse to hard work. You know nothing.

So majoring in physics or engineering makes someone the most talented and best prepared for med school? Again, you know nothing.

What you're saying contradicts EVERY adcom member who's posted on SDN. By your standards, if someone doesn't major in engineering or a hard science, they aren't qualified for med school?

Now I understand what your handle means.

Because of family associations I have been around academic medicine for the past 30 years. I know a little something.

I took six psychology courses as an undergraduate. It wasn't like taking calculus based physics or PChem.

LizzyM, who posts here often, is an admissions committee staff person at a medical school and she has been quite clear that undergraduate reputation and the rigor of the major play a role in admissions committee decisions.

Go to this thread and you can read her posts.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=585414

Since we're getting personal here I can see why you feel the need to change careers. From the tone of virtually all of your posts you must be awful to work with. You need to do something about your anger.

 

[Revilla]

Because of family associations I have been around academic medicine for the past 30 years. I know a little something.

I took six psychology courses as an undergraduate. It wasn't like taking calculus based physics or PChem.

LizzyM, who posts here often, is an admissions committee staff person at a medical school and she has been quite clear that undergraduate reputation and the rigor of the major play a role in admissions committee decisions.

Go to this thread and you can read her posts.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=585414

Since we're getting personal here I can see why you feel the need to change careers. From the tone of virtually all of your posts you must be awful to work with. You need to do something about your anger.

No offense, but I went to that thread and Lizzy didn't say anything about someone with a degree in Physics with a lower GPA being given a pass over someone with a degree in Psychology, which from what I read, was your argument. I don't think that's true. And it shouldn't be, IMO. People shouldn't be penalized for working hard in a major they enjoy.

 

[searun]

I am a second year student at a top ten Ivy League med school. Most of the students in my class attended undergrad at an Ivy League school. (I did not so I have no axe to grind on this subject). There is a sprinkling of Stanford, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, and such, and the major public universities such as Cal and Michigan, but frankly, most of my classmates went to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and the like. Just an observation. Make of it what you will.

 

[shiftingmirage]

My two cents and then I'm shutting up.
1) Go to the undergrad you want to go to. I didn't get in to my top choice for undergrad, didn't want to go to any of the schools I got into, and didn't know what to do. This was beginning of Jan, and most schools deadline had passed. Talking to my aunt, she went on line and found a school that was still accepting applications. I applied, visited the school, and decided to go there. Best decision ever.
2) Look at the people that make up your class. Now I'm in med school with a bunch of rich white people. My family is in the upper middle class and are white. My problem is that I am surrounded with a bunch of people with the same opinion about everything. There is no diversity.
3) Just cause it is/isn't an ivy, doesn't necessarily mean you will/will not receive a great education. The chem dept at my little known institution is comprised of five profs from UofC, one from brown, BU, JHU, princeton, NW, MIT. So just because it isn't an ivy, doesn't mean our education is substandard.
4) In no way does everyone at my school get A's. In my gen chem class, about ~1/3 of the students actually make it through all three quarters. I think that's pretty much the norm everywhere.
5) 40% of US N&W college rankings are based on endowment. Although $ does indicate more resources, I do not believe is directly dictates the quality of the education.
6) A friend who goes to MIT took a couple classes at Harvard to see what it was all about. She said the classes were easier that her high school coursework. Obviously this is one person's opinion and should be weighted as such.

Bottom line: go to whatever undergrad you want. It will not make or break your med app. If you get a 3.8 and 35 you will get into a medical program whether you went to Harvard, or a place the adcom has never heard of before.

 

[luvumeanit]

Truth: Attending one of these prestigious schools authorizes you to refer to your opinions/guesses as facts.

LOL. and a big touche to you!!!

 

[FlowLimited]

LOL. and a big touche to you!!!

Yup, just trying to keep things friendly and upbeat.

 

[silas2642]

Most people seem to say that it doesn't matter going to a top undergrad. Med schools apparently don't care and that a 3.5 at an ivy is basically the same as a 3.5 at a state school.
I go to an ivy and I love it here. I love the intellectual atmosphere which was missing at my state school. I took math courses (up to Calc III) at my state school and basically got As without much studying. But here I can't dream of not studying. Even with a lot of studying, its hard to get an A since the curves are really harsh. I think in our engineering chem section, the average grade last semester was a C+ even though the averages were in the high 70s and low 80s. It's pretty crazy.
I know I am learning a lot more than I would have at my state school, but I can't help feeling kinda sad looking at my comparatively dismal GPA. I would have probably had pretty close to a 4.0 at my state school. So, my question is, do med schools actually factor in that I am in an ivy where the science classes have harsh curves and that I am an engineering major?
I want to get an MD/PhD because I love research and am interested in that side of medicine also...

Uhhh.... good for you? I don't know, what do you want us to say-- that we're all so proud of you for going to an ivy league school and getting a C? Some of us don't have rich parents who can pay the $40,000/year tuition for Dartmouth or whatever and/or don't want to take out the loans for a brand name education because we have an idea of what med school is going to cost.

I mean, if I want to challenge myself intellectually, I don't have to drop a 6 figures on tuition. All I have to do is go to the library and read the damned books-- especially considering the fact that I don't go to class anyway. If I want to impress people, I'll just go on Amazon.com and buy the Harvard sweatshirt and parade around town with that with a bunch of big books under my arms looking stressed out.

 

[luvumeanit]

Uhhh.... good for you? I don't know, what do you want us to say-- that we're all so proud of you for going to an ivy league school and getting a C? Some of us don't have rich parents who can pay the $40,000/year tuition for Dartmouth or whatever and/or don't want to take out the loans for a brand name education because we have an idea of what med school is going to cost.

I mean, if I want to challenge myself intellectually, I don't have to drop a 6 figures on tuition. All I have to do is go to the library and read the damned books-- especially considering the fact that I don't go to class anyway. If I want to impress people, I'll just go on Amazon.com and buy the Harvard sweatshirt and parade around town with that with a bunch of big books under my arms looking stressed out.

Are you aware that the Ivy League gives NO merit or athletic scholarships? All their financial aid is "need-blind" and "need-based." So, if you get in and you need aid, you get aid. (Though I heard Brown may have to give up need blind for financial reasons -- can't afford it.)

And the better-endowed Ivies (Harvard/Yale/Princeton) meet 100% of need with grants, not loans. Lots of free rides. Lots and lots.

So people on here who say they go to their state school for financial reasons may, in fact, be paying more than if they went to Harvard.

Oh, forgot, you have to be able to get IN to Harvard.

Small detail that most of the complainers on this thread like to ignore.

 

[SiR99]

Different schools look for different things

Ivy schools are more shallow when it comes to their students because they are looking to accept people they feel will "do big things" and in turn, it will be tied back to their school, so the schools reputation will go up. So they accept students based on their "success factor" whether that is your family name, family money, or based on your own merit because you just did some outstanding things. (i.e Bush obviously got into his school because of his family name).

Obviously people at Ivy schools are very capable and smart people, but thats not all the things these schools look for. So logically they would favor Ivy undergrads because these students have been pre-screened already for these kinds of things.


On the other hand UC's are more focused on an individuals merit and community service. They are looking for people who will help their communities and improve the quality of life for many.

So depending on where you would like to end up, it does matter what kind of school you go to because different schools have different values and look for these values when picking students.

 

[Emmet2301]

I do think the undergrad school should matter. If not then why not every smart high schooler who wants to do premed go to their low-tier/"easier" college and get high grades there and get into med school?

 

[luvumeanit]

Different schools look for different things

Ivy schools are more shallow when it comes to their students because they are looking to accept people they feel will "do big things" and in turn, it will be tied back to their school, so the schools reputation will go up. So they accept students based on their "success factor" whether that is your family name, family money, or based on your own merit because you just did some outstanding things. (i.e Bush obviously got into his school because of his family name).

Obviously people at Ivy schools are very capable and smart people, but thats not all the things these schools look for. So logically they would favor Ivy undergrads because these students have been pre-screened already for these kinds of things.


On the other hand UC's are more focused on an individuals merit and community service. They are looking for people who will help their communities and improve the quality of life for many.

So depending on where you would like to end up, it does matter what kind of school you go to because different schools have different values and look for these values when picking students.

You have really got to be kidding me? The Ivies are "shallow" and the UCs look for "merit and community service??!!"

That is so ridiculous that I call "troll."

Do you know, for example, the "Teach for America" was founded by a Princeton senior after she wrote her senior thesis on the concept? Gee, how shallow of her.

 

[pntgrd]

The question is if undergrad prestige matters, NOT the question of whether or not you think it should matter. Obviously, at many med schools, it does play a role.

 

[SiR99]

You have really got to be kidding me? The Ivies are "shallow" and the UCs look for "merit and community service??!!"

That is so ridiculous that I call "troll."

Do you know, for example, the "Teach for America" was founded by a Princeton senior after she wrote her senior thesis on the concept? Gee, how shallow of her.

I SAID THE SCHOOL IS SHALLOW WHEN IT COMES TO PICKING PEOPLE! i didnt not say the people at the schools are shallow. I also said that they consider outstanding things someone has done but they ALSO CONSIDER other things like family name to decide whether or not someone will become succesful.

UC's CANNOT consider things like what family you come from,

I can actually see why you would think that though because I wrote it in a hurry, my mistake.

I always post things I have heard from Adcoms.

 

[shindotp]

I really think those who don't go to top schools don't want to admit they have a disadvantage or any kind by the choices they've made in life.

 

[shindotp]

I SAID THE SCHOOL IS SHALLOW WHEN IT COMES TO PICKING PEOPLE! i didnt not say the people at the schools are shallow. I also said that they consider outstanding things someone has done but they ALSO CONSIDER other things like family name to decide whether or not someone will become succesful.

UC's CANNOT consider things like what family you come from,

DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO YOU NOW?

I always post things I have heard from Adcoms.

Family name? That's for like less than 1% of the applicants.

 

[SiR99]

Family name? That's for like less than 1% of the applicants.

That is one example, and it was the one that i remember the most from my conversation.

Honestly everyone here should just wait, Both ivy students and Public students.

Ivy students will see if their private education was considerably better then public education when they are up against Cal, UCLA, Virgina, and Michigan students in medical school.

Same for public school students, they will see if their public education prepared them good enough to compete against private school students.


Bottom line, it does matter, iv spoken with many Adcoms and they admit it is not a big difference within closely ranked schools, but there is a difference between schools that are not closely ranked.

 

[luvumeanit]

I really think those who don't go to top schools don't want to admit they have a disadvantage or any kind by the choices they've made in life.

Bingo.

The problem is that it is not that they are at a DISadvantage because they did not go to a top university. No matter what school you go to, if you work very hard and do very well, you will succeed in anything you want to do.

But many on this and other threads are bitter because they perceive that others have an ADVANTAGE. and they find that unfair. it is not.

Sorry, but most, if not all, graduates of ivy League and other top schools have 2 qualities in common: they are very smart and they are very well-educated.

Why wouldn't med schools look at them extra closely? they would be idiots not to.

 

[RoyBasch]

Am I in the twilight zone here? Unless your state school was Dartmouth, that's a load of crap. First, the avg. med school app GPA is a 3.5, NOT higher than a 3.7.

Why would I like about a rejection? I regret to inform you that my state school was not Dartmouth, it was a large medical school in the midwest with a particularly strong penchant for accepting in state applicants. For those of you who have not actually started applying yet, you need to realize that a B-average from ANY school in ANY field is not competitive. The 3.6 psych major beats the 3.4 physics major. If you want to become a doctor and you're not a genius do not major in physics. Life is about "playing the game" there's not much point in trying to fight the system so just work within it. I.e. if all medical schools see is pure GPA, do what it takes to get the highest GPA.
-Roy

 

[scarletgirl777]

It helps you if you have a high GPA... however if you have a low GPA it won't count.

On my interviews my Undergrad has gotten a lot of comments about the quality of the students, etc... Talking to my interviewers they have commented, and I know that several schools will factor in the "difficulty factor" of the undergrad in a formula when determining whether to grant an interview.

I don't think it's something ever worth counting on because it's so variable from school to school, but I know at least one school (Baylor), in their little sheet they have interviewers fill out, specifically instructs them to rate the students' academic performance taking into account the difficulty of their undergraduate coursework. I have heard adcoms and officials from other schools say of course it will help if you did well in challenging curricula. Make of that what you will.

 

[scarletgirl777]

1. There have been several articles isolating grade inflation especially at Harvard, so that's a bad example. When your parents contribute to the endowment, there is pressure to "grade" you appropriately. This happens at non-Ivy schools too. When Larry Summers tried to introduce some reality at Harvard, he was kicked out.
2. It is obvious that generally a top school will have a better student body than a CC. My point here is that some CCs give you the same curve as you would get at a top school. In other words, if you manage to get an A in Ochem, you get it because you really earned it, much like the guy at a top school. Maybe the student body is not remarkable, but when the curve is established based on what the professor thinks you have to know (compared to the rest of the schools) and not on the unremarkable student body, then the lack of competitiveness does NOT affect the grades. Maybe you will now get what I am saying.

I understand you feel the need to defend your CC experience, but everyone who was paying even the slightest bit of attention knows that Larry Summers was kicked out because he is tactless and incensed the female scientist community.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

I really think those who don't go to top schools don't want to admit they have a disadvantage or any kind by the choices they've made in life.

Actually, I think many people just don't want to be associated with snobs like you so we avoid the schools that breed them like fruit flies.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Bingo.

The problem is that it is not that they are at a DISadvantage because they did not go to a top university. No matter what school you go to, if you work very hard and do very well, you will succeed in anything you want to do.

But many on this and other threads are bitter because they perceive that others have an ADVANTAGE. and they find that unfair. it is not.

Sorry, but most, if not all, graduates of ivy League and other top schools have 2 qualities in common: they are very smart and they are very well-educated.

Why wouldn't med schools look at them extra closely? they would be idiots not to.

Dude, you're such a tool. I bet you'll be the one who will wear his white coat and stethoscope to the grocery store on his first day of med school.

 

[luvumeanit]

Dude, you're such a tool. I bet you'll be the one who will wear his white coat and stethoscope to the grocery store on his first day of med school.

Calm down. I am a medical student. And, yes, I am very proud of that. I wish you well in the process. None of this debate matters much. Just work hard and write a good app and you'll get in.

Good luck.

 

[searun]

I understand you feel the need to defend your CC experience, but everyone who was paying even the slightest bit of attention knows that Larry Summers was kicked out because he is tactless and incensed the female scientist community.

Certainly any guy who incenses "the female scientist community" will likely end up as burnt toast, as did Summers. Although some wags have suggested that this incident reflects the power of PMS, personally, I think it is the unfortunate culmination of the war of the sexes that has manifested itself in varying ways and in multiple cultures across the centuries.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Why would I like about a rejection? I regret to inform you that my state school was not Dartmouth, it was a large medical school in the midwest with a particularly strong penchant for accepting in state applicants. For those of you who have not actually started applying yet, you need to realize that a B-average from ANY school in ANY field is not competitive. The 3.6 psych major beats the 3.4 physics major. If you want to become a doctor and you're not a genius do not major in physics. Life is about "playing the game" there's not much point in trying to fight the system so just work within it. I.e. if all medical schools see is pure GPA, do what it takes to get the highest GPA.
-Roy

Good job Roy. How about everyone just major in something you can get all A's in. I know I should've...

 

[StPlayrXtreme]

I think it definitely makes a difference where you go to school, but I don't think it's a drastic difference.

I have a 3.55 at a top private university in an engineering program, which may be lower than if I had gone somewhere else. However, I got 13 interview invites, including my absolute top choice. If I applied with a 3.55 from a public university, I don't think I would have had as much luck.

I worked hard for the GPA I have, and I'm glad my GPA is considered in context. However, I don't think you'll see an extreme boost due to school reputation. If my GPA was around a 3.0, even at a difficult school, I think I would have had trouble with the admission process. I also had a strong MCAT (34), which I think helped prove that I'm just in a difficult program.

So, I do think I got a bit of a boost...but my school also gave me lots of opportunities to distinguish myself in other ways. Research, service trips, shadowing, music....lots of ECs that I might not have had a chance to do if I went somewhere else.

 

[dannyboy1]

people seem to be missing out on a crucial point. one of the factors in med school rankings is undergrad GPA. even though the ADCOMS may know that the 3.2 from MIT is just as qualified as the 4.0 from dipsh** university, they will definetly take into account that the 4.0 boosts their numbers while the 3.2 guy brings them down.

 

[luvumeanit]

people seem to be missing out on a crucial point. one of the factors in med school rankings is undergrad GPA. even though the ADCOMS may know that the 3.2 from MIT is just as qualified as the 4.0 from dipsh** university, they will definetly take into account that the 4.0 boosts their numbers while the 3.2 guy brings them down.

That is very true, but med schools also love to list all the "prestigious" undergrads that their students attended. they LOVE to do that.

 

[dannyboy1]

That is very true, but med schools also love to list all the "prestigious" undergrads that their students attended. they LOVE to do that.

so they take one guy from MIT but then they will look at numbers. their website will read "our entering class had an undergrad GPA of 3.8 and came from prestigious schools such ad harvard, MIT".

 

[funkymunkytoes]

Just work hard and write a good app and you'll get in.

Good luck.

Well said! If you work hard in undergrad (no matter which one) and seek out the opportunities available, you will get into med school! Life has a funny way of working out.

This is what I get from this ridiculous topic:

Med schools love to bolster about their high GPA average, while they also love to advertise their students come from top ivy league schools, while they also love to brag about the diversity of their class and that they pull people from everywhere, &c., &c, &c.. If you ask me, it all seems to be a wash. We'll have to wait and see though, because I'm from a state school!

 

[Excelsius]

I understand you feel the need to defend your CC experience, but everyone who was paying even the slightest bit of attention knows that Larry Summers was kicked out because he is tactless and incensed the female scientist community.

I am not defending CCs. I have taken courses at a CC and also a top 5 school. And if I had to do it again, I wouldn't take courses at a CC. All I am saying is that you can't make a general statement saying that all CCs are easy or all top schools are hard. That's just one aspect. If we discuss access to certain resources and renowned teachers, top schools win.

Larry Summers would have done a lot of good at Harvard, despite his "female" comments. I think that his comments didn't cause his release from Harvard. Over some period of time, the entitled faculty at Harvard did not like Summers because he was trying to change the way Harvard operated. His remarks about females and the sciences were just used as a convenient opportunity to oust him. If people really cared about what he said, he wouldn't be in the Obama administration now. And yes, generally there are far less female students in hard sciences like quantum physics than there are males. It will take another 10-20 years to draw definitive conclusions about this. Certainly, males are not offended when it is noted that females are far better at communication and linguistics. If you look at the human evolution, you can see a reason for that. Now evolution is taking another turn (such as more opportunities for women beyond the traditional realm), that's why it is too early to draw conclusions about lack of female representation in the sciences. Summers was just too blunt for some people, but some women I talked to understood what he was trying to say and attributed his comments to his lack of communication skills (no surprise here!).

 

[silas2642]

Bingo.

The problem is that it is not that they are at a DISadvantage because they did not go to a top university. No matter what school you go to, if you work very hard and do very well, you will succeed in anything you want to do.

But many on this and other threads are bitter because they perceive that others have an ADVANTAGE. and they find that unfair. it is not.

Sorry, but most, if not all, graduates of ivy League and other top schools have 2 qualities in common: they are very smart and they are very well-educated.

Why wouldn't med schools look at them extra closely? they would be idiots not to.

I don't know-- I've met some pretty dumb people who go to these so-called "top schools." Med school has a way of wiping the slate clean-- it really doesn't matter where you went to undergraduate on the first day of MS I, that scantron machine that they run your exams through doesn't give a damn. In med school it's about hard work and brains-- not whether you are ivy or not.

 

[Livingapparatus]

I really think those who don't go to top schools don't want to admit they have a disadvantage or any kind by the choices they've made in life.

haha

I think ivy leaguers justify the 40k tuition by saying they have a leg up.

 

[luvumeanit]

Well said! If you work hard in undergrad (no matter which one) and seek out the opportunities available, you will get into med school! Life has a funny way of working out.

This is what I get from this ridiculous topic:

Med schools love to bolster about their high GPA average, while they also love to advertise their students come from top ivy league schools, while they also love to brag about the diversity of their class and that they pull people from everywhere, &c., &c, &c.. If you ask me, it all seems to be a wash. We'll have to wait and see though, because I'm from a state school!

This issue will never die, unfortunately. But you are exactly right, it is a wash at the end of the day.

AND we have no control whatsoever about how med schools decide whom to accept. We really need to put our energies into what we can control: our grades, our MCATs, the way we spend our time, our applications, etc.

When this thread dies out there will be another one in a week or so.

Inevitable.