Privately funded int'l students, don't study at Otago!

[Edison]

First off, I must emphasise that Otago has an excellent medical programme with outstanding medical graduates practising in different countries. However, if you're intending to study health science first year (HSFY, or pre-med year, so to speak) there as an international student, think twice! Having studied HSFY in 2004, and having had numerous correspondence with the staff involved in med school admission, I have first hand knowledge in how selection for medicine works for international students, and I feel obligated to tell it to as many people as possible before their hard earned money goes to the sewage.

I chose Otago initially because it's cheaper to study there than to study in the UK or Australia. Before I went to Otago, I requested the University to send me information specific to the HSFY programme. Among all the information booklets was one letter stating the following:

"The competitive places available in the second year of Medicine for 2005 for international applicants from all countries are fixed as below:

Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery: 12 places"

Knowing that the quota for international students was fixed at 12, I proceeded to apply and accept the offer to study HSFY. Before I proceed any further, let me briefly explain the two classes of international students here. One class consists of those students who study HSFY under government contract (mostly from Malaysia and Brunei); in other words, they are sent to Otago by their government and are fully funded by their government. The other class consists of privately-funded student.

In the first month of studying HSFY, I heard from some classmates that those int'l students who are under government sponsorship are given a higher priority in medicine admission, regardless of their academic achievements, than those who are privately funded. Disturbed by this news (as I was privately funded), I proceeded to clarify this with the Health Science Office, who's responsible for medicine admission. The person to whom I talked is Melany Wilde, the Manager of undergraduate admissions. In the meeting, she told me in person that those international students who came to study HSFY under government sponsorship are given a higher priority than those who are privately funded! I questioned her about the quota of 12 places for int'l students. She told me the 12 places included both government-sponsored students and privately funded students! This is ridiculous as those government-sponsored students are guaranteed admission to medicine as long as they get over 70% in HSFY; they are not even required to write the UMAT. Meanwhile, privately funded students need to write the UMAT to be considered for 2nd year medicine. This contradicted with the statement quoted above: The COMPETITIVE places available in the second year of Medicine..............12 places. For those government sponsored students, admission to medicine is not competitive, it's almost guaranteed! Melany Wilde then went on to tell me that it's possible that there will be no places left for us privately funded students as most of the 12 spots will go to those sponsored students! At that moment, I realised that the whole admission issue is a fraud. I wouldn't have studied here had I known earlier that the 12 "competitive" places thingy is a lie and there could be no places for us no matter how well we do in the HSFY programme.

Angry at her response, I brought this matter one level up and emailed Dr Brunton, who is the Associate Dean of International Admissions, Health Sciences Division. Initially, he was unwilling to disclose the number of places put aside for int'l fee paying students. Again, I mentioned about the aforementioned letter in my email to him. He asked me to send him the letter. I scanned it and sent it to him. After that, I never heard back from him.

Here comes my results from HSFY. I got an average of about 90% across all 7 papers in HSFY, with UMAT percentiles in the following order: 80+, 70+, 99, and was rejected by medicine. Meanwhile, all the sponsored students (mostly from Brunei) got in to medicine, with some of them starting HSFY in the last 2 months when we were about 3 months into the 2nd semester (they arrived at Otago in October!!! bloody hell....). Understandably, those who have to repeat medicine year after year are the sponsored students. One guy from Brunei has studied 4th year medicine 3 times before going on to 5th year.

A handful, and only a handful of privately funded students got into medicine. (Nowhere near 12) Many of them got 99% in Chemistry, Biochemistry and Biostatistics.

The local students who're currently in 2nd year medicine class mostly got an average of high 70s / low 80s in HSFY.

If this continues, the school's international reputation will suffer.

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[spherical]

That's tragic. I am glad you are speaking out. You might to want to send a "warning" letter to pre-med advisors at colleges in the US and elsewhere. Also, to placement directors at post-bac programs in the US and elsewhere. I know of a number of people who have sent out such letters regarding Australian programs. Also, warn all current internationals. And, those who have not yet enrolled.

Go to the press -- they love scandal.

You might get legal advice and see what if any recourse you might have. Unfortunately, you may find that it is not worth the time and money to pursue. Furthermore, even if you got yourself a place, you would likely face bullying for the next 5 years.

Do a real scortched earth!

I have heard of similar stories in Australian schools -- for example, having separate fail quotas for international students. With international students not being told that they had failed until the beginning of the next school year at which point it was too late to lodge an appeal and if successful stay with their class. International students have been failed and then been denied their right to an appeal. I know international students who were told that the Faculty did not have the resources to read their appeals (as if international students "have the resources" to pay for an extra year.) People have failed and never been given a specific reason. Just "unsatisfactory" for the year. One thing that really bothers me is that ethnic Asian international students regardless of their nationality seem to fall victim most often. (I got the impression that administrators thought they would be less likely to put up a fight or drop out.) Some students have prepared legal cases and then seen the Faculty back down at the last minute. But that is expensive and distracting.

Then there have been lies regarding "matching" and other matters.

You can't be too skeptical.

 

[deleted59964]

That's tragic. I am glad you are speaking out. You might to want to send a "warning" letter to pre-med advisors at colleges in the US and elsewhere. Also, to placement directors at post-bac programs in the US and elsewhere. I know of a number of people who have sent out such letters regarding Australian programs. Also, warn all current internationals. And, those who have not yet enrolled.

Go to the press -- they love scandal.

You might get legal advice and see what if any recourse you might have. Unfortunately, you may find that it is not worth the time and money to pursue. Furthermore, even if you got yourself a place, you would likely face bullying for the next 5 years.

Do a real scortched earth!

I have heard of similar stories in Australian schools -- for example, having separate fail quotas for international students. With international students not being told that they had failed until the beginning of the next school year at which point it was too late to lodge an appeal and if successful stay with their class. International students have been failed and then been denied their right to an appeal. I know international students who were told that the Faculty did not have the resources to read their appeals (as if international students "have the resources" to pay for an extra year.) People have failed and never been given a specific reason. Just "unsatisfactory" for the year. One thing that really bothers me is that ethnic Asian international students regardless of their nationality seem to fall victim most often. (I got the impression that administrators thought they would be less likely to put up a fight or drop out.) Some students have prepared legal cases and then seen the Faculty back down at the last minute. But that is expensive and distracting.

Then there have been lies regarding "matching" and other matters.

You can't be too skeptical.

Yeah, and I heard that Australian unis have started intentionally accepting only the dumbest American applicants. They do this in order to fleece them out of 10 years of tuition for repeat years, before finally kicking them out.

Need evidence of this shocking scam, just read spherical's post.

 

[pitman]

I have heard of similar stories in Australian schools -- for example, having separate fail quotas for international students. With international students not being told that they had failed until the beginning of the next school year at which point it was too late to lodge an appeal and if successful stay with their class. International students have been failed and then been denied their right to an appeal. I know international students who were told that the Faculty did not have the resources to read their appeals (as if international students "have the resources" to pay for an extra year.) People have failed and never been given a specific reason. Just "unsatisfactory" for the year. One thing that really bothers me is that ethnic Asian international students regardless of their nationality seem to fall victim most often. (I got the impression that administrators thought they would be less likely to put up a fight or drop out.) Some students have prepared legal cases and then seen the Faculty back down at the last minute. But that is expensive and distracting.

Then there have been lies regarding "matching" and other matters.

You can't be too skeptical.

but apparently you can be too paranoid.

Mind indicating a specific school where you think any of this happened? Hmm? No? Might we remind everyone of such claims (and the rebuttals) made in the not-so-distant past? Hmm?


-pitman

 

[sjkpark]

yada, yada, yada...

Go to the press -- they love scandal.

You can't be too skeptical.

Yes you can. If you are naive enough to think that the media will give a flying fig, you deserve what you get. In fact, most of them won't even know what you're talking about and will question YOU on why on earth you want to come half way around the world to study medicine.

And reputation? What reputation? There are very few international students in New Zealand medical schools (except Malaysians), we don't actively go out and recruit international medical students like Australians do. I don't think anybody on Otago administration is going to be upset by OP going to "the press," that is, if OP can find "the press" to go to.

 

[Cziffra]

Yeah, and I heard that Australian unis have started intentionally accepting only the dumbest American applicants. They do this in order to fleece them out of 10 years of tuition for repeat years, before finally kicking them out.

Need evidence of this shocking scam, just read spherical's post.

Do you really think recruiting the dumbest American applicants would bring Australian unis financial gain IN THE LONG RUN? Do you really think the unis are that short-sighted? Think about it.

Not that I'm saying spherical's post is untrue; however, if you think spherical's post is sufficient evidence of the shocking scam, I'd start to doubt your ability to judge and reason. Did he/she provide evidence to back up his/her claim? Can someone name a particular uni that fails students on purpose so that we can do some investigations on our own? It'd be most helpful to the future applicants. Stop giving generic description; name the Uni like the OP did.

I still hold the belief that some of the more famous Australian med schools are no worse than the average American med schools that are absolutely unheard of outside of the US. Except for UCSF, Harvard, Stanford and a few others, which American med school can boast to have medical graduates who are Nobel laureates like Melbourne and Adelaide can?

Let's be objective.

 

[Purifyer]

I find it impossible to believe there are only 12 places for international students at otago 12 places for non-sponsored international students sounds a lot more convincing, as I personally know at least 20 saudi/malay/seychellians, and when I factor in the non-NZ taiwanese/UAE/Chinese/Singaporeans it would come to a total of at least 25 if not 30.

In my time the Sponsored internationals didn't have to sit umat and were essentially guaranteed spots in med (although I know a few who had to repeat health science). So that is true.

If the OP didn't get into medicine (based on his/her stated marks) then I feel condolences are in order. Med is a very competitive field in all western countries and when you are competing against the (international student) brains of Singapore, maybe 90% just isn't enough these days. I find it hard to believe that a NZ student with an average in the high 70s has a chance in hell (unless they are Maori/Rural students).

 

[deleted59964]

Not that I'm saying spherical's post is untrue; however, if you think spherical's post is sufficient evidence of the shocking scam, I'd start to doubt your ability to judge and reason. Did he/she provide evidence to back up his/her claim? Can someone name a particular uni that fails students on purpose so that we can do some investigations on our own? It'd be most helpful to the future applicants. Stop giving generic description; name the Uni like the OP did.
Let's be objective.

Umm I think we have crossed wires!
Spherical's post was the dumbest thing I've heard since ... well ... since USMedGrad or whatever he called himself was spreading the same wildly hysterical sweeping generalisations and paranoid delusions.

Since Spherical's post was dumb, and spherical seems to be an american med student in Australia, Australian uni's MUST be preferentially accepting ******* american students.

 

[aussiedoc]

First let me say that i can understand you frustration at trying to get into medical school. As an Australian it has taken me 3 years of applications before finally getting accepted at an international uni outside Australia.

However i have heard first hand from people involved with medical training at an Adelaide leading university where International students whom have failed, and failed badly have complained to the dean whom has overturned their fail grade and allowed them to continue.

The first student having completed their subjective exam and history taking was asked to procced onto the physical exam. The student then informed the markers that they couldnt continue as they had ä "phobia" with touching people.

The second student lied when questioned regarding their stethescope. Given that it was set to listen to heart sounds rather than air entry into the lungs, and the ear peices where in backwards responded to the examiner "yes the patient has good air entry".

Both of these students where 3rd years

Now i am no examiner and im not suggesting that either of these incidents would result in the student "failing" the year but certainly i would expect the fail grade for that assessment would stand. However as mentioned above, these student complained and promptly had their fail grade removed.

It appears that International students can be on either end of the stick. Just my 2 cents worth

I wish you luck in obtaining entry to Medicine

 

[Captainkok]

Hey guys i am a 7th former and deciding to go to otago or auckland uni.
I do have a NZ permanent residency.
In short, r u guys just saying that Otago is biased at accepting students into Med?
And define "locals" who get into Med with just 70%-80% HSFY marks.

 

[sjkpark]

Hey guys i am a 7th former and deciding to go to otago or auckland uni.
I do have a NZ permanent residency.
In short, r u guys just saying that Otago is biased at accepting students into Med?
And define "locals" who get into Med with just 70%-80% HSFY marks.

You'll have no problem. You're considered NZ local.
Don't worry about these things.

 

[Edison]

You'll have no problem. You're considered NZ local.
Don't worry about these things.

sjkpark, you're funny. Who said I came half way round the globe to study at Otago? I'm from Asia.

Yes, "don't worry about these things" since you're considered a NZ local student and will be selected for medicine purely based on your merit.

If you're an international student, you should be extremely concerned about they way Otago handles international student issues. Their lack of transparency in medicine admission for int'l students, their lie about international quota (once you accept the offer for HSFY, they will tell you the truth; by then it'll be too late), etc...

Why on earth did they have to withhold the truth that, in any year, there could be no place for privately funded international students depending on the number of sponsored students? Why did they have to lie to us, before we departed for Otago, that the competitive places for us was fixed at 12, only to tell us it could be 0 when we physically arrived there?

The competition for medicine for int'l students is far greater than that for local students. Like I said earlier, those 6 or 7 privately funded students who got in to medicine in 2005 got high 90s (99% isn't uncommon) in many of the pre-requisite Science and Statistics papers (except for English; but their achievements in the science papers more than compensate for their lower marks in English). Well, except for one, and just one very stupid int'l student who also got in, but that's another story which I won't go into. (If you are interested, PM me and I'll tell you the full details.)

For 2004, the total number of international students enrolled in HSFY was approximately 300, according to the Health Science Representative; in the end, 6 or 7 of them got in to medicine. (My friend actually went through the trouble of hunting them down as he's also an international student studying 2nd year medicine right now.)

Perhaps the standard for medicine admission for local students used to be higher in previous years; however, I can assure you that heaps of local students got in to 2nd year medicine in 2005 with an average ranging from high 70s to low 80s, since I've just been through the whole process in 2004 and personally know lots of students in my year.

If you have doubts about anything I've said, I'll try my best to provide you with evidence. I've kept some of my correspondence with Dr. Brunton in my mailbox. I've also kept the letters they sent me. I'll also make this known to more people so they won't waste their money by coming "half way round the world" to study at this unworthy university.

 

[Purifyer]

I can understand how devastated you must feel about not getting a place in med but I don't think bitterness and slander will make you feel any better.

What are you doing this year? Still in NZ? I'm curious as to how many people did health science in 2004, it was close to 1200-1500 in my year, and if you're saying there are over 300 intl students now doing it I wonder how many there were in total.

 

[Edison]

Purifyer, did you not get my point? I understand that you'd like to defend for your school. Was it 5 or 6 years ago when you did HSFY?

If Otago has been honest about the fact that there could be no places for us and it all depends on the number of sponsored students they get each year, I could have made a more informed decision regarding coming over to study. Many of us got that yellow letter from Otago stating that the number of places for us would be 12. That was the basis upon which we accepted the offer. It turns out that the number was a lie. When I questioned the staff about this issue and specifically the letter, they stopped responding to me. They just stopped. It doesn't even include a line on that letter saying that the number is subject to change without notice or anything like that. I'm not trying to make myself feel better here; I'm trying to warn people from other countries who are thinking of trailing my path in the future. This endeavour isn't worth your while. Someone mentioned about the press. That's one thing I'll pursue to inform people from my country.

I accept the fact that those int'l students who got in got higher marks than I did and I'm fine with that; I am bitter that Otago lied in the very first place. I got into Dentistry and I declined their offer. I can't stand studying at a dishonest institution. I'll be heading to Australia for medicine next year.

If you're an int'l student who wants to study HSFY in the future, I'd suggest that you personally ask for the int'l quota (a generic letter stating the number is not sufficient), have them write a letter to you and sign it.

In 2004, there were a total of about 1600 students in HSFY (or was it 1800? all I know is that they keep expanding the class each year), 300 of which were int'l students. I'm not sure about the number for 2005, however, you can email the Health Sciences Divisional Rep at [email protected]. He might be able to offer some help. By the way, this guy is new; it was someone else for 2004.

 

[sjkpark]

sjkpark, you're funny. Who said I came half way round the globe to study at Otago? I'm from Asia.

I'm truly sorry if I hurt your feelings. I fully understand where you're coming from. I was just having a go at spherical's idiotic suggestion to go to press. There are a lot of interesting things going on (like the most exciting election in donkey's years).

I'm sure you'll learn sometimes in your medical training that there are some fights that are not worth fighting. It's often best to suck it up, as you'll have plenty of time to bitch about them after you graduate.

I hope you best of luck in Australia.

PS: I find it very hard to believe that there are 300 international students doing HSFY in Otago. Auckland's HSFY had about 1500 local and internationals.

PPS: I'm an Auckland student, and not terribly interested in what's going on down there. Hell, I'm not even interested in fighting for my class's right, as I'm tired and worn out and my consolation is that I only have 7 more weeks of this nonsense.