Problem-based Learning Curriculum

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RocuROMANium

RocuROMANium

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For anyone who has attended or is attending a medical school with a problem-based learning curriculum, what did you think? Can you briefly describe what it was like learning pre-clinical basic science in this style of curriculum. Did you like it?
 
Fantastic initially and in principle but it quickly turns into the bare minimum and everyone telling each other what you already know (regurgitating the same resources). Plus you get annoyed with people who want to sit there and discuss things instead of finishing 30 mins early.
 
IMG69 said:
Fantastic initially and in principle but it quickly turns into the bare minimum and everyone telling each other what you already know (regurgitating the same resources). Plus you get annoyed with people who want to sit there and discuss things instead of finishing 30 mins early.
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Do you study the anatomy and physiology on your own and then meet up with your group to discuss the related case study?
 
DT III said:
Do you study the anatomy and physiology on your own and then meet up with your group to discuss the related case study?
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You don't exactly have time for any of this and definitely don't have the energy, idk how your PBL's will run but we'd get introduced to the case on Monday then have lectures, the clinical exam/skills and anatomy labs related to that the rest of the week then meet Thursday to discuss and further develop the case and then usually learn all the treatment, complications etc to present on Monday to wrap up the case and start the next.

So to answer your question no because you have lectures on it anyway and it's not very difficult, it's just the volume that's the issue.
 
My former Dean and myself both agree we would not excel in a PBL curriculum. My wife would if she had to, but hates group projects and learning. Having said that, with a tutor and a MS2 as a mentor, our students adapt pretty quicky in the first 2 weeks. There are websites where you can uncover what kind of learner you are and help you decide which curriculum would be best if you are lucky enough to have a choice. Students who drop out of PBL would flounder in any curriculum. Good luck and best wishes!
 
PBL in a nutshell:

“Here is how groups college programming and software classes go; assume a group of four:

(1) person that is talented, understands the material, pays attention in class, reads up on methods.

(1) person that really wants to learn but is struggling to really comprehend some of the more advanced material, shows up to class and tries hard.

(2) people that are going to do nothing, learn nothing, not show up or contribute at all.
This is how every group project I worked on went in college. Sometimes I was person #1 and sometimes I was person #2. But I know at least half of the students in our classes couldn’t pass a test on their own merit.”

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I guess I’m the minority but I liked PBL. Most of the learning comes from the reading in between, admittedly, but I liked the independence and I would not have thrived in lecture curriculum. (I’ll agree, however, it’s a trash curriculum for anatomy, which needs more structure).
 
DT III said:
For anyone who has attended or is attending a medical school with a problem-based learning curriculum, what did you think? Can you briefly describe what it was like learning pre-clinical basic science in this style of curriculum. Did you like it?
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Initially I thought it was great...then reality hit.

1. Learning from your peers in the pre-clinical years can be...less than efficient. I'm still traumatized by the amount of times I heard classmates say "lit" and "myocardial infraction".
2. There is always someone who wants to be the best, talk the most, and stay the longest. Usually it's the same person for all 3. Have fun sitting next to them multiple times per week at 8 am.
3. Time management is the name of the game. Why sit in a room and 'discuss' for 1-2 hours when I can learn the same amount of information, with less confusion, in half the time? To improve social skills or teamwork? You should already be in possession of the aforementioned when entering medical school, IMO.

And last but not least, it is extra painful when stuck with a PhD facilitator who wants to talk about nonsense that means nothing and is applicable to nothing.

However, PBL/TBL/ALG is 'sexy'. To quote Frank via Old School: "Everyone is doing it!". If not this, what? More wellness lectures? Luckily the first two years fly.
 
ortnakas said:
I guess I’m the minority but I liked PBL. Most of the learning comes from the reading in between, admittedly, but I liked the independence and I would not have thrived in lecture curriculum. (I’ll agree, however, it’s a trash curriculum for anatomy, which needs more structure).
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appreciate the contrary perspective
 
we had to do a PBL-type class second year. facilitator was a good doctor but my classmates were just jockeying to see who could talk the most. i learned more just doing anki and answering questions.

i learned a LOT more when a resident just asked me to research a topic and tell them about it.

ultimately that PBL group isn't going to be there when i take boards. its not going to be there when i'm on rounds and have to make a decision. it does not seem to have any real world validity.
 
Classic case of medical school selling you on some new hip teaching method but really selling you a dumpster fire. Classics case of "Over promise and under deliver" as med schools are apparently addicted to taking a good idea conceptually and implementing it in a terrible way. When evaluating schools, it's safest to think from the perspective of "what is the worst way this could go by the school ****ing it up" and you will be far happier.

Avoid if at all possible.
 
Yikes, so I have 1 positive opinion and like 20 negative opinions ha. Man, is it that bad or do most medical school curricula have a lot of negatives? Is PBL the worst style?
 
DT III said:
Yikes, so I have 1 positive opinion and like 20 negative opinions ha. Man, is it that bad or do most medical school curricula have a lot of negatives? Is PBL the worst style?
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Look through any thread on this forum and see how much positive there is coming from medical students about curriculum models and delivery.
 
Med students complaining about classes and faculty is universal, unless you are an elite student. I did it, my classmates did it, my students did it, it's normal IMO. Somehow my students were selected into good residencies. Med school is what you make it. It's very hard work for most
 
Angus Avagadro said:
Med students complaining about classes and faculty is universal, unless you are an elite student. I did it, my classmates did it, my students did it, it's normal IMO. Somehow my students were selected into good residencies. Med school is what you make it. It's very hard work for most
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Some of us complain because it doesn't have to be this way not because we had any trouble with school. Med school has been some of the chillest times of my life. Most of the problems are completely avoidable and that's why it's irritating.
 
Angus Avagadro said:
Med students complaining about classes and faculty is universal, unless you are an elite student. I did it, my classmates did it, my students did it, it's normal IMO. Somehow my students were selected into good residencies. Med school is what you make it. It's very hard work for most
Click to expand...

We can all walk 100miles to Vegas or we can drive there. Just because walking is harder and even though we can all do it, doesn’t mean it’s the best way.
 
DT III said:
Yikes, so I have 1 positive opinion and like 20 negative opinions ha. Man, is it that bad or do most medical school curricula have a lot of negatives? Is PBL the worst style?
Click to expand...

Its inefficient for the amount of volume you need to consume and regurgitate.

When you start, you will realize how your personal time studying, doing things you want to do, is more valuable than sitting there playing "lets see who can look the coolest".
 
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Look, if you have to do PBL to become a doctor do PBL to become a doctor. Its 2 years.

I am glad I went regular, my school had a choice.

Make your life as easy as possible.
 
Neopolymath said:
I thought you liked your pbl/tbl small groups?
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We have these small group PBL sessions that are focused on clinical reasoning. We do like 5-6 of them per module. They are amazing. We also have a single tbl session every module or every couple of modules, and they are totally useless.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
We have these small group PBL sessions that are focused on clinical reasoning. We do like 5-6 of them per module. They are amazing. We also have a single tbl session every module or every couple of modules, and they are totally useless.
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So you like PBL better than TBL because it’s smaller or because it’s more clinical?
 
DT III said:
So you like PBL better than TBL because it’s smaller or because it’s more clinical?
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I don’t really know the difference in terms. We call them clinical reasoning sessions. They are the best part of our curriculum and basically everyone in my class loves them. I learn more in that hour than in any of the lectures on the topic.
 
TBL is that garbage where you take a quiz on something you havent been taught, talk about it, then take another quiz.

PBL is teach yourself, go to class, and then talk about stuff you understand exhaustively to look better than your classmates and get more points.
 
Osteosaur said:
TBL is that garbage where you take a quiz on something you havent been taught, talk about it, then take another quiz.

PBL is teach yourself, go to class, and then talk about stuff you understand exhaustively to look better than your classmates and get more points.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah our clinical reasoning sessions are neither of those.
 
Neopolymath said:
Some of us complain because it doesn't have to be this way not because we had any trouble with school. Med school has been some of the chillest times of my life. Most of the problems are completely avoidable and that's why it's irritating.
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It sounds like you are on to something. I say this with no snark or sarcasm. This might be an opportunity to start a consulting company or even a school. Somerhing to consider.
 
Not a fan. We do them at least weekly, & since we're expected to do them ahead of time, that takes an hour or two, & then you spent another hour or so walking step by step through each part of the thing you already did on your own. Not at all efficient.

"Self directed learning" assignments (which are also similarly discussed & become TBL assignments) are also equally annoying. Everyone uses the same basic resources & it's just regurgitating what you found to a group of other people who (if they prepped ahead of time) already know what you're going to say to them.
 
Fidelio17 said:
Not a fan. We do them at least weekly, & since we're expected to do them ahead of time, that takes an hour or two, & then you spent another hour or so walking step by step through each part of the thing you already did on your own. Not at all efficient.

"Self directed learning" assignments (which are also similarly discussed & become TBL assignments) are also equally annoying. Everyone uses the same basic resources & it's just regurgitating what you found to a group of other people who (if they prepped ahead of time) already know what you're going to say to them.
Click to expand...

That’s why I like the way our school does it. For each session we get one case, and we only get the initial part. So usually it’s the chief complaint and some of the HPI. So everyone basically preps the same for what we would want, what we’re looking for on exam, what else we want from the history, etc.

But then since we don’t know the rest of the case, we get the whole thing in little aliquots of info one at a time. So the whole group (we do it in small groups of 6) is seeing the next bits for the first time together. So we get to adjust our differentials and what we want to do in real time as we reason through it. It’s kind of like doing a humandx project case. It’s fun and we always learn a lot.
 
drducky. said:
We can all walk 100miles to Vegas or we can drive there. Just because walking is harder and even though we can all do it, doesn’t mean it’s the best way.
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The catch is that medical practice is much more like walking to Vegas than driving.
 
Fidelio17 said:
Not at all efficient.
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PBL was not designed to convey information efficiently. It was created to let students practice skills that are essential to medical practice. Obviously it does not succeed if the sessions are run poorly, or if students refuse to do the necessary work. But the same could be said of any part of the curriculum.
 
Osteosaur said:
TBL is that garbage where you take a quiz on something you havent been taught, talk about it, then take another quiz.
Click to expand...

The first component of TBL is a reading assignment (or similar) that students should complete prior to the session, which provides background on the material being covered. If you are showing up blind then one of two things has occurred: either the instructor failed to follow the proper methodology, or you did not do the required work beforehand.
 
DT III said:
For anyone who has attended or is attending a medical school with a problem-based learning curriculum, what did you think? Can you briefly describe what it was like learning pre-clinical basic science in this style of curriculum. Did you like it?
Click to expand...

Threads on the BL's tend to bring out naysayers, which will create a sampling bias. The best way to judge the effectiveness of a school's PBL curriculum (or any other type) is to speak with current students during the interview process. They tend to oversell a bit, but it's your best hope to determine if things are run well or not at a given school.
 
Med Ed said:
Threads on the BL's tend to bring out naysayers, which will create a sampling bias. The best way to judge the effectiveness of a school's PBL curriculum (or any other type) is to speak with current students during the interview process. They tend to oversell a bit, but it's your best hope to determine if things are run well or not at a given school.
Click to expand...

Also an excellent way to get a sampling bias - the students who volunteer to interact with applicants generally tend to be those who think the school is fantastic & everything is wonderful. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who's willing to admit there's something they don't like.

The students who have complaints won't be anywhere near the recruitment/interview process.
 
Fidelio17 said:
Also an excellent way to get a sampling bias - the students who volunteer to interact with applicants generally tend to be those who think the school is fantastic & everything is wonderful. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who's willing to admit there's something they don't like.

The students who have complaints won't be anywhere near the recruitment/interview process.
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Lol obviously you didn’t interview at our school. We do the student session without any faculty present, and the people who have volunteered when I have were not shy about sharing the things they didn’t like (neither was I). But also so many people volunteer to participate in these sessions that they had to start limiting the number of interviews we could do. So clearly we like to talk to applicants about everything haha.

Obviously we all like the school, but that doesn’t mean it is perfect. I think it’s really a disservice if the students aren’t being honest about the good and the bad. If I ask what someone doesn’t like about something and they tell me everything is great, I just assume they aren’t being completely truthful.
 
Fidelio17 said:
Also an excellent way to get a sampling bias - the students who volunteer to interact with applicants generally tend to be those who think the school is fantastic & everything is wonderful. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who's willing to admit there's something they don't like.

The students who have complaints won't be anywhere near the recruitment/interview process.
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Absolutely true at my school. Information is at a minimum for applicants. The only reason I knew what to expect at my school is via recent alum and m4s I had a relationship with. Students at the interviews were clearly planted by the school.
 
Osteosaur said:
TBL is that garbage where you take a quiz on something you havent been taught, talk about it, then take another quiz.

PBL is teach yourself, go to class, and then talk about stuff you understand exhaustively to look better than your classmates and get more points.
Click to expand...
I think that you mixed the two up!
 
Fidelio17 said:
Also an excellent way to get a sampling bias - the students who volunteer to interact with applicants generally tend to be those who think the school is fantastic & everything is wonderful. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who's willing to admit there's something they don't like.
Click to expand...

Each side attempts to see through the facade of the other, that's the nature of interview days (and interview processes in general). While it's true that the students who volunteer for these sorts of things tend to be content, in my experience they are also fairly candid, especially when asked direct lines of questions. They have little incentive to recruit peers who will be unhappy. Current students are the only individuals who experience the entire curriculum directly, and are therefore the only possible source of such knowledge. The interviewee just needs the emotional intelligence to dig for it.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Lol obviously you didn’t interview at our school. We do the student session without any faculty present, and the people who have volunteered when I have were not shy about sharing the things they didn’t like (neither was I). But also so many people volunteer to participate in these sessions that they had to start limiting the number of interviews we could do. So clearly we like to talk to applicants about everything haha.

Obviously we all like the school, but that doesn’t mean it is perfect. I think it’s really a disservice if the students aren’t being honest about the good and the bad. If I ask what someone doesn’t like about something and they tell me everything is great, I just assume they aren’t being completely truthful.
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With all due respect, your school is about as far from a typical school as possible, and your administration has a vested interest in making sure matriculants have full disclosure regarding what they are getting into. Not necessarily true when it comes to full pay, high stat applicants at other schools! 😎
 
DT III said:
For anyone who has attended or is attending a medical school with a problem-based learning curriculum, what did you think? Can you briefly describe what it was like learning pre-clinical basic science in this style of curriculum. Did you like it?
Click to expand...

Had about half and half PBL/traditional between the first two years.
I thought PBL was annoying and I didn't like to hear my fellow students pontificate on things they didn't understand any better than I.
It was a lot of time consuming busy work that didn't help me understand it much better. I did much more poorly in classes that had that type of class than our more traditionally taught courses. Didn't like it.
 
Angus Avagadro said:
Med students complaining about classes and faculty is universal, unless you are an elite student. I did it, my classmates did it, my students did it, it's normal IMO. Somehow my students were selected into good residencies. Med school is what you make it. It's very hard work for most
Click to expand...
Not just normal, it's a med student's job to complain. And on these very pages, I've seen med students complaining about med students complaining!
 
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