Problem Based Learning?

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pupcorn

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Hey guys, I've been reading up on vet schools & have already visited a couple. In the process, I have run across "problem-based learning" a.k.a. PBL a couple of times. Can you help me clarify which schools do & do not have it? I know Western, Cornell, & Tufts do. What about Davis?

Also, for pre-vet & vet, what are you're views for & against it? And for & against purely lecture + lab curriculum?
 
Tennessee has problem based learning in 1-week slots throughout the 1st 3 years. Meaning that once or twice a semester we meet in small groups and work through a case study and are presented with information in a realistic timeframe.

I personally like it better this way. It is very informative, but i take more from lecture because I am forced to learn it to do well on tests whereas in the PBL exercises (we call the Application Based Learning Exercises or ABLEs) I don't retain it as well and am not necessarily tested on the material. But, then when it comes up in class, I already have a working knowledge of it and am better able to understand the material. There's something to be said for having both. I would get very tired of having just PBL all the time though.
 
I think there was a thread on this before...but anyway, TN has a little bit of problem-based learning and that makes me very happy.

Here it's called Application-Based Learning Exercise (ABLE) and we do a week or two of it every semester. Basically, you're in a small group and you talk through a case and do research every night. Each day you get more diagnostics (if you order them) and do more research. It's fun way to apply what you've learned in class, plus it's a week away from lecture. Our second one starts tomorrow and I'm really excited.
 
Tennessee has problem based learning in 1-week slots throughout the 1st 3 years. Meaning that once or twice a semester we meet in small groups and work through a case study and are presented with information in a realistic timeframe.

I personally like it better this way. It is very informative, but i take more from lecture because I am forced to learn it to do well on tests whereas in the PBL exercises (we call the Application Based Learning Exercises or ABLEs) I don't retain it as well and am not necessarily tested on the material. But, then when it comes up in class, I already have a working knowledge of it and am better able to understand the material. There's something to be said for having both. I would get very tired of having just PBL all the time though.

I had a feeling you were going to post at the same time as me....😀 Hooray for ABLEs!
 
I'll just make it a Tennessee trifecta.

Nothing to add, except that unlike Dyachi, I retain the information from ABLES way better than I do the lecture material. I think it is a total match for my learning style and I wish we had way more of it.

It definitely forces you to integrate a bunch of information quickly, and having something to actually apply the material to helps me make sense of it in a way that sticks. Hours of lecture and study just doesn't have the same impact for me.

So take a look at your learning style to decide how you would or would not fare under this type of system.
 
What about Davis?

Also, for pre-vet & vet, what are you're views for & against it? And for & against purely lecture + lab curriculum?

Davis doesn't have PBL....but in classes like radiology, we will break into small groups to discuss the radiograph before the professor gives their interpretation. But they're in the middle of a curriculum revision right now. I don't know how things will change, but I don't think they're going to go PBL...

I don't like strict PBL and didn't apply to Western and Cornell for those reasons. I know a few vets who went to Cornell after they switched and they disliked it. I've heard stories of professors sitting in rooms while students argue stuff out and not answering questions....I don't know if it's true or not, but for what vet school costs, I want the professors to teach. But that's my learning style, and I totally accept that other students learn the best in a PBL curriculum. I think the best curriculum would have a mix, personally, so maybe some Tufts students will comment on their experiences.
 
...so maybe some Tufts students will comment on their experiences.



We have a small PBL component at Tufts that I think fits in nicely with the traditional lecture-based curriculum.

We meet about every week for a couple of hours to talk through a case that usually parallels a concept or body system we are learning about in another class, such as physiology. We work on each case for three weeks or so, each week divvying up “learning objective” topics that we each research and present at the next session, and when we feel ready to move forward in the case, we are given progressively more information about it, until we’re done.

I enjoy PBL because, for me, talking things through in a small group and applying concepts to a “real” case really makes things stick much better than just having the material lectured to me. So I am thankful to have PBL as a component to augment the traditional curriculum, and I sometimes find myself wishing we did it more often than just once a week for a couple of hours…
 
We have a small PBL component at Tufts that I think fits in nicely with the traditional lecture-based curriculum.

We meet about every week for a couple of hours to talk through a case that usually parallels a concept or body system we are learning about in another class, such as physiology. We work on each case for three weeks or so, each week divvying up “learning objective” topics that we each research and present at the next session, and when we feel ready to move forward in the case, we are given progressively more information about it, until we’re done.

I enjoy PBL because, for me, talking things through in a small group and applying concepts to a “real” case really makes things stick much better than just having the material lectured to me. So I am thankful to have PBL as a component to augment the traditional curriculum, and I sometimes find myself wishing we did it more often than just once a week for a couple of hours…

I agree for the most part. You don't actually learn material in PBL but it does tie everything together that you learned in your lecture courses rather well. Once a week is enough for me though! It is a nice break in being lectured too however.
 
I wanted to bump this thread because I'm applying to Western and am having concerns about PBL.

I spoke to a Western alumni who said she wishes they had lectures on the basics (anatomy, physiology, cytology, etc) in order to have a framework on which to build. That kinda scares me.

Do any of you have input on this?

Thanks!
 
My faculty at my school (McMaster University) came up with PBL! haha. So the program I'm in is pretty much all PBL (but our electives in other faculties are regular lecture-based courses), we have to take "inquiry" courses each year in which we aren't taught anything but rather have a trigger and are assigned a group. For example, in biochemical inquiry last year, we were told to research a metabolic disorder, to prepare 4 presentations (every other week) and on the weeks we do not have a presentation, to write up a progress report and evaluate the other groups' presentations. At the end of the semester, we had to do a symposium, come up with a wiki of our disorder, and write 2 critiques evaluating the critiques of 2 groups. It is very very open-ended, you literally could research anything and everything, you could go for as much depth/breadth as you wanted into the disease etc. There is no right/wrong thing to do which is a blessing and a curse because it forces you and your group to be very self-motivated and cohesive. It also takes up more time than traditional courses because as you can imagine, group meetings take a couple hours at the very least and accommodating everyone's schedules means 9pm-2am meetings on weeknights, weekend meetings etc.

As another example, our cell biology course was not like a traditional one where you're taught stuff in lectures, midterms and then final. Instead, we had 8 tests throughout the semester where you're presented with new data you've never seen before and then asked to come up with 3 hypotheses explaining what you see, pick your best hypothesis and justify why it's the best one, and then you're finally given the journal article the data comes from and have to explain why you were right/wrong. Nobody ever gets it spot on obviously but you are graded based on your ability to comprehend information and explain yourself based on the 2 hours you have. For our "final", rather than having an exam, guess what we had? That's right, another group project. We had to come up with a "legacy" test to use for the incoming freshmen next year. That was a lot harder than writing the tests themselves since we had to do all the research, make sure it's not too hard or too easy, incorporates cell biology principles, be able to come up with 4 hypotheses for it and provide journal articles as evidence.

Anyways I'll stop rambling now, I don't know how PBL is conducted at other schools (perhaps not as intense?) because PBL IS the philosophy of my whole program so it is integrated into all our courses (except our electives with other faculties, as I previously mentioned). It's got its pros and cons, the one thing I hate is the time group projects take and having 3 group projects going on at the same time usually mean I am literally on campus until 2am most weekdays, or I can't go home on weekends to stay and meet up with my group. It really does push you to be self-motivated and take initiative though.
 
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I am a little confused by different explanations when it comes to PBL...
Some people make it sound more of an "independent" learning style but then sometimes it seems like you have to be REALLY good at working in a group. How much "group" work is it......
I mean could there be someone in your group that isn't pulling their weight so it effects the quality of everyone's learning in the group (get what I am asking anybody?)

Because in a way, I think PBL would really fit my learning in some aspects (if its like I think it is) so I am just trying to figure it all out.
 
I am a little confused by different explanations when it comes to PBL...
Some people make it sound more of an "independent" learning style but then sometimes it seems like you have to be REALLY good at working in a group. How much "group" work is it......
I mean could there be someone in your group that isn't pulling their weight so it effects the quality of everyone's learning in the group (get what I am asking anybody?)

Because in a way, I think PBL would really fit my learning in some aspects (if its like I think it is) so I am just trying to figure it all out.

From what I gathered at my Western interview, I think you collaborate with a group to figure out what information you need for a case. Then you divide up tasks and have to research your topic before the next group session. Then everyone presents what he/she learned and you again have to discuss how this relates, what else you need to know, any hypothesis, etc.

What I liked about the Western style was they clearly identified the information was needed in terms of topics (ie anatomy/physio, nutrition, metabolism). So even though you don't explicitly have those classes you're still supposedly to be learning important concepts.
 
I don't like strict PBL and didn't apply to Western and Cornell for those reasons. I know a few vets who went to Cornell after they switched and they disliked it. I've heard stories of professors sitting in rooms while students argue stuff out and not answering questions....I don't know if it's true or not, but for what vet school costs, I want the professors to teach. But that's my learning style, and I totally accept that other students learn the best in a PBL curriculum. I think the best curriculum would have a mix, personally, so maybe some Tufts students will comment on their experiences.

Just a clarification: Cornell is not strict PBL by any means. PBL is incorporated only into courses where it works well - we have several blocks where PBL doesn't make an appearance. My experience with PBL seems pretty similar to the students' from Tennessee - it helps reinforce information as well as make strong connections.
 
CSU is mostly lecture format, but there's at least an electives PBL course you can take. Not sure if it's just one, or if there's more, if any of them are mandatory. I sat in on one course, and I thought it was a great supplement to a curriculum. It was a second year elective, and I felt like it was great segway into allowing students to start understanding what it means to be a clinician.

I think I wrote in detail about how the class was conducted, so I'll see if I can fish that out.
 
University of Edinburgh's GEP program has a pbl aspect, but I do not remember if they call it pbl.
 
Oregon has a PBL class called veterinary integrated problem solving that meets once a week during the 1st year. We work in small groups on cases that each last 3 weeks. During each class, you talk through the given information, come up with a problem list and a list of learning objectives, then split the learning objectives up. Over the course of the week, you research your objective, then come back the next week and share what you learned. This continues until you finish the case. Some professors role play as the client, others just help you work through the infol
 
My concern is I guess specifically about Western, since it is entirely PBL.

It seems like it would be extremely challenging to put together allot of scattered bits of information to form the knowledge base that having lecture courses on subjects like anatomy and cytology provide.

I definitely see the benefits of integrating PBL into curriculum, but a program that is entirely PBL sounds a bit scary.
 
I think a lot of it depends on your learning style. You cover essentially the same material in PBL and traditional curricula. You just learn them in different ways. A traditional curriculum teaches anatomy, physiology, biochem, histology, etc, etc, as a foundation. Then you move on to pathology in all its forms, and then you put them together for actual cases. In PBL, you start with a case and from that case, learn all the material that is relevant to that case. At the end of 4 years, you've covered the same material. You've just covered it in a different way. The advantage of a traditional curriculum is that it gives you a solid foundation. The disadvantage is that it may fall short in teaching you how to translate that foundation into clinical practice. The advantage of PBL is that it teaches you how to think like a doctor and not just like a student from the very beginning. Depending on your learning style, it may be easier to permanently retain material learned in a didactic setting or it may be easier to remember if you learned it in a PBL setting. That's a very individual thing.

My experience working in a teaching hospital has definitely influenced my personal feelings in favor of PBL. I know how much I've learned from studying issues raised in cases I've been involved with. Right now I'm studying the role of the kidneys in calcium homeostasis. Specifically because I have a case to relate it to, I feel like I have a pretty good chance at retaining this information for the long term. If I'd learned it for a class, I know I would not remember it nearly as well.

I've also seen new grads make mistakes that I think they *might* not have made if they'd had more case-based education in school. One case that comes to mind was a young adult cat whose bloodwork showed severe azotemia and a K+ of 9. The doctor correctly identified that the cat was in renal failure and took appropriate steps to treat the hyperkalemia. However, she didn't recognize that in the absence of an obstruction in the urethra or ureter, or a uroabdomen (none of which he had), renal failure with severe hyperkalamia is probably Serious Badness (i.e. anuric RF, which was the situation here), and the prognosis is poor to grave even with the most aggressive treatment. This meant the client was told that the situation was not nearly as dire as it actually was. So basically, the pieces were identified correctly but the breakdown came in putting them together to see the big clinical picture. I think PBL can help make this sort of situation less likely, although of course every new grad has a steep learning curve to navigate.

The way I see it, most vets do become clinical practitioners and nearly all of these folks start off their careers pretty much immediately with primary case responsibility, even those who pursue internship training. Being a good clinician comes with practice. An exclusively PBL curriculum should, in theory, provide the maximum possible opportunity to practice these critical skills before graduation while also providing, on average, the same competency in the basic sciences.

Most importantly, know yourself. If you know that a classroom environment is where you thrive, then an entirely PBL curriculum may not be best for you. If you're like me and thrive in a clinical-esque setting and lose 50 IQ points when you set foot in a lecture hall, then PBL may be much better for you.
 
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