- Joined
- May 8, 2016
- Messages
- 244
- Reaction score
- 392
Much to learn you have young padiwanah the ol' "I don't have an argument to stand on but I am the attending and you are the med student" defense
Much to learn you have young padiwanah the ol' "I don't have an argument to stand on but I am the attending and you are the med student" defense
Every place I've been has had a TLC in the crash cart.My very first day as an attending I had such a similar story. We had a code and I got ROSC. I could give a whole long story on all the "cultural" things there that made that ROSC go poorly, but leave it at I was so worried part way through the CPR effort that I said "Okay just get me a central line and I'll get access right now so we can give pressors if they come back." I guess no one had ever asked for a TLC midway through cpr and the code rooms (in a mind blowing bit of oversight) didnt have any. So a tech is running across a big ED to find one and I just go "is that a central line right there?" and the tech sees a kit in a corner and tells me that it is and gives it to me.
It was the trauma cordis. I didnt realize until I had fully gotten the guide needle and guide wire in. So I just sheepishly continued forward as all the techs and nurses just were baffled at this crazy new doc putting in the firehose on the CPR patient. I thought maybe the culture here was cordis on everyone because no one told me that it was odd to see that monster IV go in. It took me a solid 3 months before I admitted to the tech who handed it to me that I had zero intention of putting that line in and that maybe we should stock regular TLCs in the resuscitation rooms.
My best friend is an ENT. He is the first to say he wants nothing to do with a crash cric. They do not much receive training in that procedure, and it’s more or less a historical anecdote to them.Amazing rebuttal to my ridiculous claim that a general surgery resident is better at cutting than an ED resident. I don't know how I sleep at night after telling such lies
All three of your examples (ENT, anes, OB) are about how much the specialists don't want to do something or despise doing it; that has nothing to do with their technical ability to do it.My best friend is an ENT. He is the first to say he wants nothing to do with a crash cric. They do not much receive training in that procedure, and it’s more or less a historical anecdote to them.
Subspecialist surgeons are the un-debated masters of the anatomy and functioning of their chosen system. They are not however the masters performing extremely time sensitive procedures in an uncontrolled ED environment.
Ask anesthesiologists how many despise intubating in the ED. Or OBs coming to the ED to do a peri-Mortem section. It’s an uncontrolled environment which requires its own set of skills to function well in.
ah the ol' "I don't have an argument to stand on but I am the attending and you are the med student" defense
Your arguments are pretty specious, and could be made for almost every procedure we do. Perhaps we should have plastics do every lac repair, ortho do every reduction, cards read every ekg, surgery see every belly pain, peds see every kid, and im see everything else.
Much to learn the young padiwan doesHey, I was an arrogant jackass as a student, too.
Don't let me stop you.
Much to learn the young padiwan does
Your arguments are pretty specious, and could be made for almost every procedure we do. Perhaps we should have plastics do every lac repair, ortho do every reduction, cards read every ekg, surgery see every belly pain, peds see every kid, and im see everything else.
Saying cards should read every ekg, surgery should see every ab pain, etc is a straw man argument and something I never said. EM doesn't need to consult for every issue in the ED, but that doesn't mean they are gods of any procedure in the ED either.
EM can reduce the vast majority of shoulder dislocations without help, but if you can't get a shoulder back in, are you really going to call in another ED doc over ortho?
——-
100% I would take an experienced em doc over Ortho for a shoulder. If we call them it’s because we think the patient might need general anesthesia
Are you going to call another ED doc for a second opinion on an iffy EKG or would you call cards? ———-
——-
Again, I run iffy ekgs by colleagues all the time. I would take an interventionalist over an em doc, but probably not a gen cards person. They are unquestionably better at ekgs overall but not necessarily at finding ischemia. If I call a gen cards on an iffy ekg I am doing so to limit my liability/Monday morning quality assurance committee ————-
—————
If your kid had a lac and you could choose between an ED doc and a plastic surgeon suturing it, who would you chose?
Idc on this one, probably the em doc for speed to dispo. Outcome will probably be similar unless there is need for extensive repair. Plastic surgeon is better, but it doesn’t change that most of the time the scar will be similar: also, plastic surgeon isn’t gonna do it, it will be the poor pgy2 resident on call, so I’ll take an em doc.
Not to change the subject back to the topic, but I'm going to change the subject back to the topic. I also have a memorable chicken-in-the-airway experience.
Almost identical setup (ahem, Florida)
Went to tube and WTF... except it was a whole breast. I grabbed it with my fingers, and flung it on the floor. Nurses screamed. More chicken. Two additional chickenectomies via ring forceps later and I could actually see the cords.
Got ROSC, but if I remember right, family withdrew care a few days later.
Ah, old people not chewing.
Not to change the subject back to the topic, but I'm going to change the subject back to the topic. I also have a memorable chicken-in-the-airway experience.
Almost identical setup (ahem, Florida)
Went to tube and WTF... except it was a whole breast. I grabbed it with my fingers, and flung it on the floor. Nurses screamed. More chicken. Two additional chickenectomies via ring forceps later and I could actually see the cords.
Got ROSC, but if I remember right, family withdrew care a few days later.
Ah, old people not chewing.
Similar story as an ICU fellow, flew by air ambulance into a community hospital to put in a dialysis line that the nephrologist, anesthesiologist and local internist (not ICU trained) couldn't get.Hit an IJ dialysis line in the ICU after 3 NPs had attempted every other site and deemed the line “un-gettable”. Walked off to jay-Zs 99 problems in my head
Mismanaged a bunch of chronic GERD and other nonsense, but hey. Gotta take the wins as they come.
Anyone else have any good procure stories? I’m not gonna have a job in 2.5 years so hey, gotta live it up.
Bronched steak out from the carina using the biopsy forceps like a tiny claw game. Then we got the CT brain showing loss of gray white differentiation.
It was non-occlusive. The patient was admitted overnight after an extended downtime at a steak house, just no one bothered to get the CT brain and, prematurely in my opinion, wrote off TTM because of the downtime alone.I've always fantasized about doing this, but I always imagined it would end up the way yours did. By the time you get suspicious, set up the bronch and put the forceps adapter into it and get down there you're already at a down time >10 minutes, assuming they came in unresponsive to begin with. Seems like the only inevitable conclusion.
If I did a thoracotomy on someone and they survived, I would consider that to be the absolute pinnacle of my career.
One of the residents at my institution when I was in training had a perimortum c/s where both the mom and baby came out neuro intact. If I remember right it was on L&D and OB did the bedside section while an EM resident on a NICU rotation ran the arrest. I think that's probably about as good as it gets.
Wow - Isuprel! Who's the OG here??
Everything old is new again! I remember Johnny on Emergency! getting orders to hang up isoproterenol, and that was around 1973. The first time I took ACLS, in 1993, it was mentioned in the book that it was on the way out; it was a double edged sword, as, it's all alpha, so, it can increase cardiac output, but, also, it can increase the size of an infarct. And, now, it's coming back in style!With cards blessing not cowboying it
Everything old is new again! I remember Johnny on Emergency! getting orders to hang up isoproterenol, and that was around 1973. The first time I took ACLS, in 1993, it was mentioned in the book that it was on the way out; it was a double edged sword, as, it's all alpha, so, it can increase cardiac output, but, also, it can increase the size of an infarct. And, now, it's coming back in style!
And, it was respect with my OG comment!
I had cards ask me to put a patient on it a few years ago (stable complete heart block but rate in the 20s) but we ended up going with dobutamine c as yea they didn’t stick it.So, I was a resident from 2009-2012. Isoproterenol was still in the ACLS algorithms back then - unbeknownst to my PGY-1 self.
I must have had an "old copy" of those flowchart algorithms to memorize.
Bradycardic patient, I tell attending I want to order Isoproterenol.
Nurse looks at me like I have a penis on my forehead.
Attending looks at me and says: "Freaking brilliant, man. OLD-school!"
It was "new-school" to me.
I went home confused.
I had cards ask me to put a patient on it a few years ago (stable complete heart block but rate in the 20s) but we ended up going with dobutamine c as yea they didn’t stick it.
I'll bet imagine bucks that that is something like my phone does (i.e., the "c" doesn't mean anything).Forgive me, what's dobutamine c?
I just infuse a transvenous pacemaker. I have a much higher success rate with that then with the cardiac drips for heart blocks.I had cards ask me to put a patient on it a few years ago (stable complete heart block but rate in the 20s) but we ended up going with dobutamine c as yea they didn’t stick it.
Typo, I’m on my phone and have fat fingersForgive me, what's dobutamine c?
That's what I said!Typo, I’m on my phone and have fat fingers
Do you do them on stable patients?I just infuse a transvenous pacemaker. I have a much higher success rate with that then with the cardiac drips for heart blocks.
Do you do them on stable patients?
Ok, yeah my practice too. BRASH gets dopamine or low dose epi drip though.Pretty much if they're consistently in the 40s or lower with any symptoms, hypotension, or an elevated lactic acid I'll put a transvenous pacer in. If they're chilling in the 40s then I don't... but I wouldn't start them on dopamine either. Of course CCB and BB toxicity gets some calcium and/or glucagon (with Zofran) first.
Ugh dopamine? We’re not done with that yet?Ok, yeah my practice too. BRASH gets dopamine or low dose epi drip though.
Am I crazy for still using it in mildly bradycardic, mildly hypotensive patients?Ugh dopamine? We’re not done with that yet?
Had a torsades arrest in the unit, pushed a gram of mag and defib x1, patient awake and lucid 5 minutes postarrest, no airway, started on isuprel. Most gratifying arrest I've had, though not really a procedure I suppose.
Strictly from a procedure standpoint, nothing by this forums standards but probably a 1st look rescued infant airway after several failed attempts by colleague
One of the residents at my institution when I was in training had a perimortum c/s where both the mom and baby came out neuro intact. If I remember right it was on L&D and OB did the bedside section while an EM resident on a NICU rotation ran the arrest. I think that's probably about as good as it gets.
If that 1/4 survived Neuro-intact I’d call that pretty darn good TBH.I'm a combined 1/4 for my two perimortem c-sections.
No.Am I crazy for still using it in mildly bradycardic, mildly hypotensive patients?
If that 1/4 survived Neuro-intact I’d call that pretty darn good TBH.
Number of quality live years saved for that patient is likely pretty substantial.
I would put it on without any pause, call cardiology and admit.Am I crazy for still using it in mildly bradycardic, mildly hypotensive patients?
Am I crazy for still using it in mildly bradycardic, mildly hypotensive patients?
Hopefully just a typo but isoproterenol is a non-selective beta agonist, not "all alpha"--it has little to no alpha activation. And beta-1 increases cardiac contractility and HR, not alpha. In addition to increasing cardiac muscle O2 demand, isoproterenol decreases MAP (increased systolic BP due to beta-1 activation, but greater decrease in diastolic due to beta-2 activation).Everything old is new again! I remember Johnny on Emergency! getting orders to hang up isoproterenol, and that was around 1973. The first time I took ACLS, in 1993, it was mentioned in the book that it was on the way out; it was a double edged sword, as, it's all alpha, so, it can increase cardiac output, but, also, it can increase the size of an infarct. And, now, it's coming back in style!
And, it was respect with my OG comment!
Hopefully just a typo but isoproterenol is a non-selective beta agonist, not "all alpha"--it has little to no alpha activation. And beta-1 increases cardiac contractility and HR, not alpha. In addition to increasing cardiac muscle O2 demand, isoproterenol decreases MAP (increased systolic BP due to beta-1 activation, but greater decrease in diastolic due to beta-2 activation).
Yeah, not a typo - directly, exactly wrong!Hopefully just a typo but isoproterenol is a non-selective beta agonist, not "all alpha"--it has little to no alpha activation. And beta-1 increases cardiac contractility and HR, not alpha. In addition to increasing cardiac muscle O2 demand, isoproterenol decreases MAP (increased systolic BP due to beta-1 activation, but greater decrease in diastolic due to beta-2 activation).
Yeah, not a typo - directly, exactly wrong!
Vaguely, 20+ years ago, I now, with your encouragement, recall that Isuprel is B1 B2, so, "all beta".
Oops! My bad!
Dopamine is a perfectly fine inotrope when used at inotrope doses for cardiogenic shock. People hate it because they extrapolate the data from presser doses used in septic shock, which is completely different.
I hate it because it owes me money. Don't tell me why I hate it.