Professor vs Doctor

[amikeMD]

Well, I wanted to know what you all think about these two professions. Pros and Cons.

Lets say a student had the following stats.

GPA 3.95+
MCAT/GRE: 39 / 1450
Lots of research
Lots of ECs
Great LORs

Let's then say he/she was offered acceptance to Columbia medical school and Columbia biology PhD program.

Which would you choose with the current and future prospects of each field.?

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[Evergrey]

*throws wrench in amikeMD's logic processor*

You can be a professor of medicine, you know.

 

[teenmachinery1]

Seriously????

MD ALL THE WAY!!

I know too many PhD and MD/PHD students who are on the verge of bathing with toasters to start THINKING about a PhD.

A PhD is usually at LEAST 5 years and there's a strong possibility that you're going to hate every second of this 5-6 years.

This period of self-loathing and depression and underappreciation and grant-writing and failed experiments and tedium and monotony and sarah palin and weird PIs and government bureaucracy and red-tape and crappy TA jobs and grading stupid exams and grading stupid students and low-impact-factor journal publications and smelly chemicals and lab animals..

etc. etc.

is only followed by several more years of more of the same as a post-doc.

Besides... getting an M.D. and all that is a long-process (could be almost a decade depending on specialty), but all the while you're partying with hot babes and drinking champagne and shooting hoops and sarah palin sooo...

MD all the way!

(that last paragraph I was kidding just in case)

 

[TheMightySmiter]

No brainer for me, I'd go MD. But I've never really been interested in academia. Love teaching, but hate research. I can teach as an MD but I don't have to do research if I don't want to.

 

[jvesco22]

I'm going to a Pre-Med forum and asking the premeds there if they'd rather get a PHD over an MD...

 

[amikeMD]

*throws wrench in amikeMD's logic processor*

You can be a professor of medicine, you know.

I know, but most doctors usually don't become professors.

Okay, let me rephrase.

Which path would you choose? The PhD route or MD route?

 

[teenmachinery1]

I know, but most doctors usually don't become professors.

Okay, let me rephrase.

Which path would you choose? The PhD route or MD route?

oh in that case, PhD route all the way.

 

[amikeMD]

I'm going to a Pre-Med forum and asking the premeds there if they'd rather get a PHD over an MD...

I am asking here because I would like to get the opinion of premeds. I have already asked in a graduate forum. I just trying to see both sides of the story.

 

[kami333]

I know, but most doctors usually don't become professors.

Okay, let me rephrase.

Which path would you choose? The PhD route or MD route?

Neither do most PhDs.

I'd bet the chances of becoming a professor are fairly similar to that of becoming the chair of a department.

(Professor as in full prof with tenure, not an adjunct or research professor)

 

[phonyreal98]

Go into academic medicine?

 

[tennisball80]

What is Academic Medicine

 

[amikeMD]

What is Academic Medicine

Again, I know what it is. That is why I said PhD vs MD. What are the pros and cons. Why would you not want to choose the PhD?

 

[TheMightySmiter]

Why would you not want to choose the PhD?

This is going to be a little out of the blue, but my personal theory is that people who don't want a straight PhD might want to practice medicine or something? Crazy right.

 

[randombetch]

Again, I know what it is. That is why I said PhD vs MD. What are the pros and cons. Why would you not want to choose the PhD?

MD -
Pros: you can practice medicine, takes 4 years guaranteed, comes with free chicks at bars
Cons: tuition is expensive

PhD -
Pros: Free as long as you TA
Cons: you can't practice medicine, it might take >4 years, difficult to get a professorship at a great university, lower pay until you're well established (if that ever happens)

Basically, that's it. An MD can do anything a PhD can. PhD is a better preparation for research. MD's are expensive. PhD's don't come with chicks.

 

[myhandsarecold]

well, you might want to try and see if you like people or not. everyone thinks it's easy and enjoyable talking to patients and dealing with other students, ******* doctors, bitchy nurses, blah blah blah for hours and hours until they actually do it. besides, i dont think people here have mentioned anything about the amount of stress students, residents, attendings go through when thinking about the possibility of misdiagnosing a person, killing them with your treatment plans, being pimped during rounds/prerounds, board exams after board exams, school loans, and the number of years you lose in med school ... just my thought

 

[jvesco22]

This is going to be a little out of the blue, but my personal theory is that people who don't want a straight PhD might want to practice medicine or something? Crazy right.

lol. I think you're onto somethin!!

 

[jckut10]

.

 

[Toadesque]

I'm going to a Pre-Med forum and asking the premeds there if they'd rather get a PHD over an MD...

lulz you miscin brah?

 

[JLC]

well, you might want to try and see if you like people or not. everyone thinks it's easy and enjoyable talking to patients and dealing with other students, ******* doctors, bitchy nurses, blah blah blah for hours and hours until they actually do it. besides, i dont think people here have mentioned anything about the amount of stress students, residents, attendings go through when thinking about the possibility of misdiagnosing a person, killing them with your treatment plans, being pimped during rounds/prerounds, board exams after board exams, school loans, and the number of years you lose in med school ... just my thought

IMO I think research is generally a more difficult profession. Researchers create, physicians follow.

 

[Fer0sh]

MD or go home. End of discussion.

 

[GregoryMD]

*throws wrench in amikeMD's logic processor*

You can be a professor of medicine, you know.

Just like Dr. Professor Cox!

 

[Parts Unknown]

Which would you choose with the current and future prospects of each field.?

That's a rather vague question. The jobs are very different. I'd say that most people who would be happy as PhD biologist would be ill suited to a career in medicine, and vice versa.

That said, if you are looking to make six figures with a high degree of job security, medicine is a better gig. If you are looking to work 10-3 with a long lunch, try teaching bio at a small liberal arts college. If you are looking to high level academic bio research at a large university, then God help you.

 

[BerlinDude]

MD -
Pros: you can practice medicine, takes 4 years guaranteed, comes with free chicks at bars
Cons: tuition is expensive

PhD -
Pros: Free as long as you TA
Cons: you can't practice medicine, it might take >4 years, difficult to get a professorship at a great university, lower pay until you're well established (if that ever happens)

Basically, that's it. An MD can do anything a PhD can. PhD is a better preparation for research. MD's are expensive. PhD's don't come with chicks.

Some modifications.

MD does not take 4 years guaranteed. If you want to get into a competitive specialty most people take a year or two doing research to strengthen their credentials.

MDs don't come with chicks either. Chicks generally go for average-type guys, not brainiacs (MD or PhD).

You don't have to TA in a PhD program. That requirement is PhD program-specific.

Here is a simple financial calculation:
MD takes say 5 years at 30K/year tuition (assuming some aid), then 5 years at 45K/year as resident, then you make say 200K/year.

PhD takes 5 years at 30K/year stipend, then 5 years at 45K/year as post-doc, then 100K/year as professor.

So at the end of 10 years, the PhD has 300K more, but is making 100K less. He has the advantage of a flexible schedule.

 

[CoolWhipp]

Entirely different careers. Who gets acceptances to a PhD program and an MD program at the same time? No one. Why would this hypothetical be useful?

 

[Aljazera]

lulz you miscin brah?

What's your rep, mate?

 

[Parts Unknown]

MD does not take 4 years guaranteed. If you want to get into a competitive specialty most people take a year or two doing research to strengthen their credentials.

Most? This is actually quite uncommon. The vast majority of people who perform research fit it into a standard 4 year MD schedule. The rare ones who do take a year off (and do something like a Howard Hughes Medical Institute Fellowship) get paid for their time.

Here is a simple financial calculation:
MD takes say 5 years at 30K/year tuition (assuming some aid), then 5 years at 45K/year as resident, then you make say 200K/year.

PhD takes 5 years at 30K/year stipend, then 5 years at 45K/year as post-doc, then 100K/year as professor.

So at the end of 10 years, the PhD has 300K more, but is making 100K less. He has the advantage of a flexible schedule.

In most cases graduate students make more like 25K, and can easily go longer than 5 years. Postdocs are closer to 40K. PhD assistant professors usually begin <80K. To be fair, after 3 years of practice, full time MDs can make anywhere from 120K to 500K+. Quite a broad range.

In a generic sense, the MD will win the long term financial game hands down. There are exceptions, of course. If one racks up 300K in student loans and then becomes a pediatrician in an area with a high cost of living, well, that can hurt your bottom line. Conversely, a PhD in the right place at the right time can make a lot of money consulting and working the business side of things.

 

[amikeMD]

Most? This is actually quite uncommon. The vast majority of people who perform research fit it into a standard 4 year MD schedule. The rare ones who do take a year off (and do something like a Howard Hughes Medical Institute Fellowship) get paid for their time.



In most cases graduate students make more like 25K, and can easily go longer than 5 years. Postdocs are closer to 40K. PhD assistant professors usually begin <80K. To be fair, after 3 years of practice, full time MDs can make anywhere from 120K to 500K+. Quite a broad range.

In a generic sense, the MD will win the long term financial game hands down. There are exceptions, of course. If one racks up 300K in student loans and then becomes a pediatrician in an area with a high cost of living, well, that can hurt your bottom line. Conversely, a PhD in the right place at the right time can make a lot of money consulting and working the business side of things.

That HHMI fellowship looks awesome. Especially at a medical school where you get about 8 - 10 months free time due to the 1.5 preclinical structure. Is it difficult to get into?

Why does it seem that it is easier for a medical student to become a well established researcher if they decide compared to someone going the PhD route?

Also, I guess I would also choose the MD at this point.

 

[ACSurgeon]

Well, I wanted to know what you all think about these two professions. Pros and Cons.

Lets say a student had the following stats.

GPA 3.95+
MCAT/GRE: 39 / 1450
Lots of research
Lots of ECs
Great LORs

Let's then say he/she was offered acceptance to Columbia medical school and Columbia biology PhD program.

Which would you choose with the current and future prospects of each field.?

With an MD you can do everything a PhD can (research, teach). With a PhD you have much less option (no clinical research or clinical practice). Also, money is better in the MD route. More loans with the MD route, but with those stats, a scholarship is almost certain.

Finally, a lot of PhD get sucked up in the useless details and facts instead of practical aspects (which is what an MD would care more about).

 

[Cancer p53]

Perhaps MD/PhD would be a good route.. from what I've read, those who really can't decide between MD and PhD (assuming they have the academic credentials) are those who best fit this path. Also, in this case you can do whatever the heck you want within reason. Many shoot for 80/20 research/medicine, though you really need to good outside funding to concentrate on research like that because it won't make your institution money the way your clinical time does. I've heard the split is generally closer to 70/30 or 60/40. If you found out you don't enjoy the research so much you could drop it entirely and go into private practice or find a clinical professor position (basically you can do anything that either MD or PhD could do). The real drawback here is the increased length of time for the PhD, but some programs limit you to 3-4 years in the PhD phase (mostly MSTP programs I think, which are different from MD/PhD). Oh yeah, and tuition for both degrees is waived and you get like a 20K/year stipend generally. If anyone knows more about this than me feel free to correct me or add, it just struck me that if someone is having that hard of a time deciding this wouldn't be a bad way to go.

 

[Cancer p53]

So I just realized the situation was dual acceptance to separate programs.... guess that makes my last post irrelevant. In which case I say go MD. You could always apply internally for PhD anyway.

 

[URHere]

Whether you should pursue an MD or a PhD has everything to do with what you are interested in teaching, practicing, and learning!

What is your field of interest? If you have a passion for engineering/math/chemistry/etc and no interest in physiology, then I would guess that the MD route would be quite unpleasant for you. On the other hand, if your interests all fall into the realm of clinical medicine, then getting a PhD probably won't give you the broad scope of knowledge that you want.

Similarly, do you have any interest in practicing clinical medicine or pursuing lab research? If you want to practice medicine, than you will need the MD, and if your only interest is in research the PhD would be much more useful. If you want to do both...then the MD alone might be enough depending on your area of interest, but if you want to research something that is not a direct part of medicine (e.g. physics/engineering/chem), or an area that you have no research experience with, then you may do well in an MD/PhD program. If you want nothing to do with clinical medicine or research? Then, you should think about just earning a masters degree. You can teach with them (granted, it would probably be at the undergraduate level), and 2 years is a drop in the bucket compared to other paths.

So, my answer is that no one on this forum can help you decide without more information.

 

[GellaBella]

As someone finishing her PhD my general advice is....DON'T DO IT!!

Yes, you can have a flexible schedule, can wear whatever you want, have free schooling plus stipend (not $30k/yr though...I make mid-20s and that was the highest offer...UNH offerred $18k/yr when I was applying) but there is so much emotional distress that comes with a PhD. Experiments don't work. Grants don't get funded. Your research gets scooped. its no fun.

Go MD. get a masters later if you are really pining for research but don't think the masters is anything like getting a PhD.

If I could go back and do it again...well I'd probably still end up doing it...maybe. I don't know. I like research, and I'm glad I'll have my PhD but the past 5 years have been really rough and I don't know any other PhD students who don't feel like they hate coming into lab. Most of them are leaving science.

 

[c5212]

PhD's don't come with chicks.

Truth. There should be no contest in the MD vs PhD race.

But... MD if you want to practice medicine - PhD if you would rather be primarily involved in teaching/research. Simple as that.

 

[Doodledog]

With a PhD you have much less option (no clinical research or clinical practice).
Finally, a lot of PhD get sucked up in the useless details and facts instead of practical aspects (which is what an MD would care more about).

This is not correct. PhD's can and do conduct as PIs innumerable clinical research studies. If the study (and this is uncommon) requires a physician to physically perform a test on a subject that only a physician can perform, then a physician is added to the project as a collaborator. In many cases, the non-physician can do much of the actual "hands-on" research and/or hire a nurse, etc for blood draws, etc.

As far as the useless details, this is a meaningless description. The "useless details" can be mechanisms that allow the research to have biological plausibility as well as lead to further research, etc. The physician cares a lot about that, not just the "practical aspects", whatever that means.

 

[Ativanigans]

On the short time, PhD is financially more attractive. Long term, it's probably better to be a MD. There's not a lot of guarantees that you'll have a job waiting for you at the end of the PhD tunnel. Professorship usualy requires postdocs, strong publications and some luck (not to even mention hwo to get on tenure track etc).

If you really really love basic science research, sure go into PhD. But if you just want to do some clinical research, it's better to be a MD

 

[7starmantis]

Am I missing something?

Is the OP asking why one would choose Dr. Pepper over Coke?

 

[Narmerguy]

MD. You can practice, teach, and research. Whaaaaaaaat? How could anyone turn this down?

 

[Stixman28]

hopefully OP isn't having too rough a time wading through all of the BS pre-med answers.

I once had an MD researcher tell me that she found her job extra stressful bc while her PhD counterparts only had to write grants, she had to compete with them, and spend 20-30% of her time in clinic.

This makes being the best researcher a very tough job with an MD.

You might also want to think about job flexibility. I anticipate getting bored with whatever I end up doing, so I chose the MD so I can switch my job mid career.

 

[niblet]

MD. You can practice, teach, and research. Whaaaaaaaat? How could anyone turn this down?

Because some people like one (or two) more than the others.

 

[Gogogirl]

I was gonna ask this question cuz I can't decide between PhD or MD...

Well, depends on what my PI told me..When she was in Johns Hopkins, she met so many people who has a MD but choose to do research and so many PhD's who got into clinical field (reseach part in clinical field..). So there is no definite lines restricting PhD or MD I guess...I had my mind set on MD for a long time. After begining my research with this professor, I have slowly changed my mind to PhD because I love research and can see myself doing this as a career. Plus, I can always do a clinical/medical related postdoc to get a job in the medical field. To a middle-class poor student like me, not having to pay for tuition and getting a stipend is a deciding factor. My aunt is a PhD graduate and did her clinical postdoc in JHU. Now she is working as one of the top researchers in Emory's hospital. I think it really depends on your interests and just try to make the best out of it. Good luck!

 

[Parts Unknown]

I once had an MD researcher tell me that she found her job extra stressful bc while her PhD counterparts only had to write grants, she had to compete with them, and spend 20-30% of her time in clinic.

That MD also has a very valuable set of clinical knowledge and skills that can be used outside of academic medicine, and can bring non-grant revenue into her department through her clinical work. Not the worst position to be in. The PhD researchers at many institutions have to generate 100% of their salaries through grant money. Considering 6-8% of NIH grants are funded these days (with money usually going to established labs), I would not say the PhD's are lacking stress in their daily lives.

 

[Aljazera]

Dr. Pepper is awesome.

 

[Stixman28]

That MD also has a very valuable set of clinical knowledge and skills that can be used outside of academic medicine, and can bring non-grant revenue into her department through her clinical work. Not the worst position to be in. The PhD researchers at many institutions have to generate 100% of their salaries through grant money. Considering 6-8% of NIH grants are funded these days (with money usually going to established labs), I would not say the PhD's are lacking stress in their daily lives.

Ha, when i read what i wrote it does sound like im down playing their stress as only have to write grants.

truly, my line of thought went something like, I dont need the stress of having to 'beg' for money my whole life. Ill go the MD route.

balancing two careers though... quite an admirable feat. she just moved to a new university and is now the head of a dept on top of that.

 

[Algophiliac]

amikeMD][/B]
I know, but most doctors usually don't become professors.

Okay, let me rephrase.

Which path would you choose? The PhD route or MD route?

oh in that case, PhD route all the way.

Still sobbing with laughter.

But in all seriousness, this is how I see it breaking down:

PhD--not interested in clinical work

MD/PhD--while interested in clinical work, getting adequate research time and funding is important

MD--only interested in clinical work and/or clinical or translational research, and can deal with not having adequate time or funding for research

If you're interested in doing clinical work, but can still see yourself engaging in serious lab research at some point in the future, I would recommend the MD/PhD route. Otherwise, just choose one and stop wasting time and money!

 

[SamyRamadan]

Just like Dr. Professor Cox!

 

[BozoSparky]

You might also want to think about job flexibility. I anticipate getting bored with whatever I end up doing, so I chose the MD so I can switch my job mid career.

...too much training and loans to switch mid-career for me. i actually feel pretty locked in.

 

[elektroshok]

Some modifications.


MDs don't come with chicks either. Chicks generally go for average-type guys, not brainiacs (MD or PhD).

Says someone who prob doesn't get any now anyway....

 

[Evergrey]

Still sobbing with laughter.

But in all seriousness, this is how I see it breaking down:

PhD--not interested in clinical work

MD/PhD--while interested in clinical work, getting adequate research time and funding is important

MD--only interested in clinical work and/or clinical or translational research, and can deal with not having adequate time or funding for research

MD can do basic science research as well, but you do need to seek some training outside of the curriculum for it. Fortunately there are ample opportunities for post-doc and residency research opportunities for MD-only grads that want to do lab research!

 

[randombetch]

Seriously????

MD ALL THE WAY!!

I know too many PhD and MD/PHD students who are on the verge of bathing with toasters to start THINKING about a PhD.

A PhD is usually at LEAST 5 years and there's a strong possibility that you're going to hate every second of this 5-6 years.

This period of self-loathing and depression and underappreciation and grant-writing and failed experiments and tedium and monotony and sarah palin and weird PIs and government bureaucracy and red-tape and crappy TA jobs and grading stupid exams and grading stupid students and low-impact-factor journal publications and smelly chemicals and lab animals..

etc. etc.

is only followed by several more years of more of the same as a post-doc.

Besides... getting an M.D. and all that is a long-process (could be almost a decade depending on specialty), but all the while you're partying with hot babes and drinking champagne and shooting hoops and sarah palin sooo...

MD all the way!

(that last paragraph I was kidding just in case)

I know, but most doctors usually don't become professors.

Okay, let me rephrase.

Which path would you choose? The PhD route or MD route?

oh in that case, PhD route all the way.

HAHAHAHA!!!!

Hilarious.

 

[amikeMD]

HAHAHAHA!!!!

Hilarious.

Seeing that now looks hilarious.

How about I added more to this discussion. I was watching Charlie Rose, great show, and they had some budget director on talking about health reform. He was saying that the health reform this year is really about opening access to people. He then said that doctors, hospitals, and pharmaceutical companies should be prepared for more cuts or stagnant wages sometime down the line. This is to tackle the growing health costs that this bill was suppose to do, but strangely doesn't.

I then look at the fact that the cost of college continues to increase and the wages of professors have also increased alongside. Many assistant professors with phds in biology at private and large state universities are starting with salaries close to 100K.

Since becoming a professor or a doctor is about a 6 - 10 year plan, and with the above in mind, would this influence your decision?

Also, I know many here are altruistic, I don't think this part of the discussion can be overlooked.