Program Quality and Openings

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gasping81

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Hey everyone,

What are your thoughts on the following programs in terms of any kind of malignancy and training, especially procedures? Any rankings? Also, what are some of the better/best programs out there in the US?

1. Schwab - UofC
2. Rush Chicago
3. RIC - Northwestern
4. Loyola Chicago
5. UofMich
6. Madison
7. MCOW

Also if anyone is aware of PGY-2 openings in these programs, especially for July 2009, please PM.

Thanks.

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I wasn't at all impressed with Loyola Chicago during my interview there. The residents seemed less than enthusiastic about their program. The facilities were dilapidated. I don't think they even have their own department. It's also in a very gritty, blue-collar suburb of Chicago that was a lengthy and hectic commute from inside the city.

RIC is the preeminent program in PM&R right now.

Rush has a good location in Chicago from what I've heard.

One of my friend did an inpatient rotation at the University of Michigan and absolutely hated it there, especially the workload. Then again, many people who post here seem to like it. Your mileage may vary.
 
One of my friend did an inpatient rotation at the University of Michigan and absolutely hated it there, especially the workload. Then again, many people who post here seem to like it. Your mileage may vary.

:laugh:

On a more cheery note, I doubt you'll find better procedure/spine experience than Michigan. Driving time, not just directed needle pushing.
 
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Rush is a smaller program with about 4 residents per year. No malignancy that I know of there. Inpatient experience is great and not overdone like some residencies. Actually the program is probably the best as far as elective time goes (6-7 months between 3rd and 4th years). Interventional experience is really good, you get to rotate with interventional physiatrists as well anesthesiologists who allow you first dibs at procedures. Current PASSOR president is there at RUSH who is an expert at MSK disorders as well as women's health and pelvic dysfxn. Sports med experience is great given that you work with the team physicians (ortho, PM&R and IM sports med docs) for the Bulls and White Sox and as well as a sports med physiatrist (for local university athletics) who covers almost every one of the running/racing events in Chicago (including Chicago Marathon). Opportunities are endless if you put your mind to it. For those that know, the Ortho (#8 on US News Rankings) and Neurology and NeuroSurg (#15 on US News rankings) depts are very well known and entrenched in research. These are your typical depts from which your inpatient services are comprised from and if you have research endeavors they are very collegial and welcoming of other specialties. Most residents end up getting into whatever field of PM&R they choose to pursue, fellowships or private practice.

And for those that are fixating about location, its found in the Illinois Medical District (where Cook County Hospital, UIC Medical Center and Jesse Brown VA Medical Center are) just west of downtown Chicago. I believe before the Texas Medical Center was built, the Illinois Medical district was the world's largest medical district...
 
Location, location, location. Isn't that key? :hardy:
Well partially. Those gritty blue-collar locations can you give excellent exposure compared to an affluent area that is filled with high-profile patients. In the real world, most of your future patients will be working class. Many of those will be worker's comp as well. Dealing with celebrities or high profile clients may be fun at first but they soon become too demanding and a drain on you.
 
Interventional experience is really good, you get to rotate with interventional physiatrists as well anesthesiologists who allow you first dibs at procedures.
It was my impression that the anesthesia fellowship at Rush was overtly hostile to PM&R applicants. Has that changed?
 
It was my impression that the anesthesia fellowship at Rush was overtly hostile to PM&R applicants. Has that changed?

Anesthesia at Rush is hostile to just about any specialty including the surgical specialties. It probably won't make a difference much until the financial politics change at Rush. But given the new ACGME requirements, the Pain Medicine dept may feel the crunch when at their next ACGME site visit they ask the PM&R, Neuro and Psych depts if they are having them involved with the pain fellowship program.

The anesthesia faculty that the PM&R residents rotate through are at community and VA hospitals, private practices and through elective rotations at other academic hospitals if they want. The interventional experience is as much or as little as the resident wants to get of it. This is where elective time comes quite handy...
 
Anesthesia at Rush is hostile to just about any specialty including the surgical specialties. It probably won't make a difference much until the financial politics change at Rush. But given the new ACGME requirements, the Pain Medicine dept may feel the crunch when at their next ACGME site visit they ask the PM&R, Neuro and Psych depts if they are having them involved with the pain fellowship program.

The anesthesia faculty that the PM&R residents rotate through are at community and VA hospitals, private practices and through elective rotations at other academic hospitals if they want. The interventional experience is as much or as little as the resident wants to get of it. This is where elective time comes quite handy...
When was the last time the Rush Pain fellowship took a Rush PM&R applicant? Or ANY PM&R applicant, for that matter?
 
When was the last time the Rush Pain fellowship took a Rush PM&R applicant? Or ANY PM&R applicant, for that matter?

Its never happened. But I believe in the past that was because the pain fellows used to take OR call (which supposedly doesn't happen anymore).
 
RIC is the premiere program, and I was very impressed on interview day. Michigan also has a great reputation. I don't think any of these programs listed are "malignant". I totally disagree with the previous poster on Loyola. I rotated through there and absolutely loved it. The facilities at Loyola are very nice. The VA is not the most aesthetically pleasing, but... its the VA. The residents are top notch, and the ones I know are very happy. Maywood is not the most lovely location, but it certainly beats Schwab's location. Plus, residents get a lot of hands on experience. All of the above programs are good. It just depends on where you fit in, what your specific interests are in PM&R, and what kind of experience you want as a resident.
 
RIC is the premiere program, and I was very impressed on interview day. Michigan also has a great reputation. I don't think any of these programs listed are "malignant". I totally disagree with the previous poster on Loyola. I rotated through there and absolutely loved it. The facilities at Loyola are very nice. The VA is not the most aesthetically pleasing, but... its the VA. The residents are top notch, and the ones I know are very happy. Maywood is not the most lovely location, but it certainly beats Schwab's location. Plus, residents get a lot of hands on experience. All of the above programs are good. It just depends on where you fit in, what your specific interests are in PM&R, and what kind of experience you want as a resident.

Loyola is a good intimate program. I know many of the residents there. They are however going through abit of turmoil given that they finally broke away from Ortho and are their own dept. They have had some recent faculty leave and that has put a bit of a toll on the residents interventional exposure which was pretty good up till about a year ago. They are still having trouble replacing these faculty. The current PGY-3s will tell you that while the residency is great, but there are some pretty big issues that haven't been solved as of yet...
 
I'm 10 years out fom MCW, but still know most the docs there.

It's heavily inpatient (50% or more) with minimal procedural exposure unless you seek it out on electives or cozy up to a few select attendings. No malignancies among the attendings still there from when I was there. EMG training is outstanding. RIC residents often come up there for additional EMG training. Overall well-rounded program but needs to join the 21st century and start doing interventional training formally.
 
Any other good programs in the Midwest near Chicagoland area?

How about just the nation in general including interventional procedures?

Thanks.
 
Rush is a smaller program with about 4 residents per year. No malignancy that I know of there...

I can expound a little bit on the Rush experience.

PGY-2 can be a little rough (inpt/consult service is combined) but you only have 5 weeks of call, and it’s from home (only cover about 30-40 patients, IM moonlighter covers the floor in-house). Alot of money is set aside for books and conferences. Didactics are pretty good as a fair portion of the lectures on associated topics are conducted by faculty from other departments.

In contrast to the sports rotation under Ortho/IM-FP, the 2nd sports rotation (Physiatry run) is based out of U of I-Chicago with an attached PM&R sports fellowship, so you do some NCAA Div I stuff, races and maybe WNBA. The ortho dept has an accredited FP/IM sports fellowship. Don’t know if I they would take Physiatrists because it wasn’t yet accredited when I was there and nobody had applied for it.

EMGs are primarily through neuro with PM&R rotations for polishing. For spine you have access to some senior PASSOR instructors as well as Neurosurg and Ortho-spine, 2 of whom do a lot of instructing/lecturing through NASS as well as publishing some of the initial studies on Kyphoplasty.

The interventional stuff is a complicated political issue. When I was a PGY-2, and for a few years prior, there was a rotation at an outpt site of the Anesthesia pain clinic where the hands-on experience was great (200-300 procedures if you were motivated), under the supervision of one particular instructor (PM&R sympathizer :laugh:). Anyway, he left for private practice and the rotation folded. In fact, I don’t think the Anesthesia pain clinic will allow PM&R residents to rotate on their service anymore.

It goes far beyond the residents and fellows, however. During my PGY-3 year, the Neurosurg (CINN at the time) and Ortho depts jointly opened a spine center. There were plans to have a fluoro suite for their spine Physiatrists to use. It was administratively blocked by the gas department. Weird huh? How often do you hear of an anesthesia dept being able to overpower both Ortho-spine and Neurosurgeons? The physiatrists in question were not a bunch of slouches. These were fellowship-trained pain boarded docs, one of whom had taught at PASSOR interventional work-shops for a number of years.

To my knowledge, it is the wishes of the Chairman of the gas dept (president of the medical staff) that that no one else be granted privileges for interventional procedures.

To my knowledge, the anesthesia pain fellowship has never interviewed a candidate from an outside specialty.

I have no idea what kind of friction must go on with IR, who do cervical discograms, etc.

Before I get accused of misrepresenting facts, I was not involved in any of these discussions, but this is information that was related to me by some members of the involved parties.

So, this is as deep as I’ll delve into it. PM me if you want further details.

Back on track. The interventional training is now good (as opposed to great) and as described above, is through the VA, Cook County Hosp, private clinics or outside electives.

As stated above, there is a lot of elective/selective time, which is potentially advantageous not only for the future sports/spine/pain doc, but also for the resident who wants to be good at outpt Neurorehab as a new Physiatrist out in practice.

After PGY-2, 24 months definitely not a long time, and it can be tough cram everything you want to do in that short of a time period. In my opinion, the ample funding and flexibility in scheduling for conferences/outside education really allows one to intensify the 24 months of focused training before entering private practice. During PGY-4, while I was doing all the sports/spine/pain stuff, I had a classmate who was off at several other institutions doing all things Peds related.

To be honest, had the opportunity been available and my salary raised to fellow level, I would have considered staying an extra year in residency in a 12 month elective or “design your own fellowship” type of role.

Though not a shining beacon of PM&R research, it is a good if not unique program for those who want focused, efficient, high-yield training that will equip them with a practical/marketable skill set.

A little off topic, but I think Rush could be fertile ground for a motivated, hard-a** Spine Physiatrist to come in and create some kind of monster interdisciplinary spine program. Whomever it would be would need to be skilled in diplomacy, but with some big cojones, for the above mentioned reasons. Maybe some senior ISIS or ASIPP guy would be up to the task. Sports would be a little more open I would think.

I’m sure other university hospital systems have similar political issues. I recall a little U Mich mini-spat on the ISIS board a while ago (Ligament :D) and attended a recent Medtronic implant course where one of the lectures was done by a U. Mich pain faculty neurosurgeon (Dr. Sagher) who made a few comments alluding to as much (funny, the program director for the Rush pain fellowship was instructing me during that same course. Wouldn’t that have been awkward if I had introduced myself as a former Rush PM&R resident?). Nevertheless, it seems U of Mich is able to consistently provide its residents with great interventional training. Perhaps they should be a model for other programs. We have “model systems” for TBI and SCI. How about a model system for non-operative spine care?

Physiatry, for all our wonderful bedside manner, communication skills and team spirit, can definitely use a few more ***holes who can get things done.
 
Back on track. The interventional training is now good (as opposed to great) and as described above, is through the VA, Cook County Hosp, private clinics or outside electives.

There is a new rotation with the ortho dept with a pain boarded interventional physiatrist, who on average does at least 10-15 procedures
(in their own flouro suite) a day. Actually, now there are more interventional rotations available than residents to cover them. So depending on how motivated you are, you may be able to make a mini-fellowship out of the elective time you have...

During my PGY-3 year, the Neurosurg (CINN at the time) and Ortho depts jointly opened a spine center. There were plans to have a fluoro suite for their spine Physiatrists to use. It was administratively blocked by the gas department. Weird huh? How often do you hear of an anesthesia dept being able to overpower both Ortho-spine and Neurosurgeons? The physiatrists in question were not a bunch of slouches. These were fellowship-trained pain boarded docs, one of whom had taught at PASSOR interventional work-shops for a number of years.

The Ortho Dept at Rush is building an addition to the hospital that will include all of the current private offices, new ambulatory surgical center, a new Level 1 Trauma Center/ER to divert some trauma from Cook County, and new inpatient general medicine and surgical floors. The current belief is that from now on all interventional procedures by ortho (or possibly any other interventionalists that don't have privileges with anesthesia) to be done at this new ASC. I am unsure as to how the anesthesia dept is reacting to this, but since ortho is footing the bill I doubt they will be able to stop anyone from going over to their facilities. The new building probably won't get finished until 2010 or 2011 at the earliest, so I guess no competition until then...
 
There is a new rotation with the ortho dept with a pain boarded interventional physiatrist, who on average does at least 10-15 procedures
(in their own flouro suite) a day.

That's good news, who is it?

Never mind, I'll PM you.

The Ortho Dept at Rush is building an addition to the hospital that will include all of the current private offices, new ambulatory surgical center, a new Level 1 Trauma Center/ER to divert some trauma from Cook County, and new inpatient general medicine and surgical floors. The current belief is that from now on all interventional procedures by ortho (or possibly any other interventionalists that don't have privileges with anesthesia) to be done at this new ASC. I am unsure as to how the anesthesia dept is reacting to this, but since ortho is footing the bill I doubt they will be able to stop anyone from going over to their facilities. The new building probably won't get finished until 2010 or 2011 at the earliest, so I guess no competition until then...

So, is any of that being financed by that big donation that was made a couple years ago?

Smart on the part of the Ortho dept. It'll be like alot of other departments in the hospital paying taxes to them.
 
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