Proof that yield protection exists with mid-tiers.

[GrapesofRath]

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Sadly, there are many admissions offices that use secondary applications as cash cows. And they shall not go quietly into that good night.

Well what do you make of what gyngyn was kind of referring to where basically this system works as a net loss for schools?

Sure, you get money from additional secondaries. But you also lose alot in terms of time, money and resources by wasting spots on people who arent going to attend and having to accept so many more people than you have spots because of this. With this current system of anybody can apply anywhere you could perhaps make an argument like gyngyn did that schools losses from having to waste so much time and money on all these additional interviews isnt covered for by the gain they have in cashing in on additional secondaries. What are your thoughts?

 

[Curioso06]

Can anyone comment on whether yield protection occurs for post-interview decisions? I.e., a school will waitlist a highly qualified candidate if they believe s/he will not attend? If so, does this happen often?

 

[Officer Farva]

Can anyone comment on whether yield protection occurs for post-interview decisions? I.e., a school will waitlist a highly qualified candidate if they believe s/he will not attend? If so, does this happen often?

In my experience, it can happen, even with fantastic post-II performance and showing interest. Makes no sense.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Just wanna say this turned into a really good thread, with much more openness to discussing potential reforms in the admissions process (even if reforms are unlikely).

 

[justadream]

Can anyone comment on whether yield protection occurs for post-interview decisions? I.e., a school will waitlist a highly qualified candidate if they believe s/he will not attend? If so, does this happen often?

Of course this would happen. For example, a mid-tier school may think you are a standard candidate but find out in the interview that you are truly unique (e.g., perhaps an inspiring life story or some other super attractive thing) and thus think you are so desirable that it would be a wasteful to give you a spot (since they think you are probably headed to HMS).

 

[Officer Farva]

Just wanna say this turned into a really good thread, with much more openness to discussing potential reforms in the admissions process (even if reforms are unlikely).

Like everything good in life, it happens by accident 🙂

 

[TickTockxx]

EDIT: this is my perspective on post-interview yield protection

certainly yield protection exists to some extent (for 38+MCAT, 3.9+gpa applicants MAYBE), but I think mostly it's mostly "ego protection," if you get my drift 😉

n=1, at my state school interview, a faculty member outright asked me "why are you here? you will have your choice of any school out there, and you are still considering us?" He was completely serious and acknowledged that the school thought I would never matriculate. I ended up getting accepted to all of my safeties (in Philly coincidentally), despite having multiple interviews/acceptances from much higher tier schools. If a school thinks you will be a good fit and think you are expressing sincere interest, they will take you regardless of your stats. If they feel like you won't attend and are not interested, they will reject/waitlist you, regardless of stats. People will argue that their lack of an acceptance is because they are "too good" for the school, and perhaps that air of superiority was palpable at their interviews. just my two cents

 

[Med Ed]

Can anyone comment on whether yield protection occurs for post-interview decisions? I.e., a school will waitlist a highly qualified candidate if they believe s/he will not attend? If so, does this happen often?

If an applicant is offered and interview, does the interview, and is well liked by the admissions committee, that person will get accepted.

That said, admissions committees are composed of humans, and will therefore sometimes make very odd decisions.

In summary, this is not rocket science, but it is likewise not easily interpretable from the outside.

 

[Officer Farva]

EDIT: this is my perspective on post-interview yield protection

certainly yield protection exists to some extent (for 38+MCAT, 3.9+gpa applicants MAYBE), but I think mostly it's mostly "ego protection," if you get my drift 😉

n=1, at my state school interview, a faculty member outright asked me "why are you here? you will have your choice of any school out there, and you are still considering us?" He was completely serious and acknowledged that the school thought I would never matriculate. I ended up getting accepted to all of my safeties (in Philly coincidentally), despite having multiple interviews/acceptances from much higher tier schools. If a school thinks you will be a good fit and think you are expressing sincere interest, they will take you regardless of your stats. If they feel like you won't attend and are not interested, they will reject/waitlist you, regardless of stats. People will argue that their lack of an acceptance is because they are "too good" for the school, and perhaps that air of superiority was palpable at their interviews. just my two cents

If I pay the money for airfare and hotel accommodations while taking a day off work, I think any interviewer that asks that question is asking a dumb question.

 

[occams_razor]

Or maybe they have a ton of applicants and not everyone can get an interview. I saw a few mdapps where someone got into hopkins but got rejected from a whole slew of schools including cornell, mayo, penn etc. I guess those schools were engaging in yield protection as well?

I think this is a different situation because those are all top tier schools that have a ton of top notch applicants and can't interview everyone. Whereas with schools that are low tier like Drexel that have an average MCAT of ~30 and average GPA of ~3.6, it doesn't really make sense for them to use interview spots on the person with the 3.9 GPA and 36+ MCAT who will most likely get interviews from schools like hopkins, penn, cornell, mayo, etc (although probably not all of those schools). That student will still be more likely to get into at least one of the top schools and attend over the low tier school, assuming they also have a strong application in terms of LORs, ECs, etc.

 

[starspells]

a) There is no movement afoot to support a proposal to limit applications, so this is moot. When I have brought this up, the immediate response has been something along the lines of "this is America, we don't set limits..."

LOL.

Well I have heard very few colleges that write committee letters actually set a cap on the number of apps their students send out. I don't know why it's any of their business but I guess this is something you'd appreciate.

 

[TickTockxx]

If I pay the money for airfare and hotel accommodations while taking a day off work, I think any interviewer that asks that question is asking a dumb question.

agreed. no way that schools grant interviews (knowing you will take the time/money to get there) just to deny you an acceptance later on because you're "too good." By the way-- my girlfriend (who has 40+ MCAT) also got II from Penn but never heard back from Drexel or Temple, despite having close ties to Philly. pre-interview yield protection is very, very real.

 

[gyngyn]

Well I have heard very few colleges that write committee letters actually set a cap on the number of apps their students send out. I don't know why it's any of their business but I guess this is something you'd appreciate.

Interesting. Maybe they are trying to get them to think about their strategy, not just shotgun it. They certainly can't enforce this.

 

[Psai]

I think this is a different situation because those are all top tier schools that have a ton of top notch applicants and can't interview everyone. Whereas with schools that are low tier like Drexel that have an average MCAT of ~30 and average GPA of ~3.6, it doesn't really make sense for them to use interview spots on the person with the 3.9 GPA and 36+ MCAT who will most likely get interviews from schools like hopkins, penn, cornell, mayo, etc (although probably not all of those schools). That student will still be more likely to get into at least one of the top schools and attend over the low tier school, assuming they also have a strong application in terms of LORs, ECs, etc.

Every school gets a ton of top notch applicants. No one can interview everyone. I'm guessing that there's a certain arbitrariness to how they choose who to interview for every school. I doubt that a school will look at a top applicant and be like well she's much too good for our medical school, let's not interview her. Every school wants the best applicants they can get

 

[Officer Farva]

Hypothetically, a lot of mid tiers can start raising average stats like crazy since a lot of them are in great cities. I would not mind spending my 20s in Philly, DC, and Boston. While BU and Tufts have "average stats", they could easily go for all the people who love Boston who might not be Harvard material, whether they have 40 or 35 MCATs.

 

[gyngyn]

Every school gets a ton of top notch applicants. No one can interview everyone. I'm guessing that there's a certain arbitrariness to how they choose who to interview for every school. I doubt that a school will look at a top applicant and be like well she's much too good for our medical school, let's not interview her. Every school wants the best applicants they can get

You are right. There is not an infinite capacity to interview.
All of those "safety" schools get thousands of excellent applicants that they won't interview. A lot of them are too good for that particular school (in that the odds that they will matriculate elsewhere is so high).

 

[Nietzschelover]

So, yield protection at the high end of stats seems relatively straightforward. How about the tier below that? In the huge sea of applicants in the 3.65-3.75/31-34 range, do low and mid-tiers also employ yield protection? Do they consider things like what state you are from and how likely they think it is an applicant will get in a state school and prefer that to their school? Do they not issue a II on that basis? Assuming that applicants are relatively even on other measures as well, do adcoms yield protect with this group, and if so, what are the most common variables considered?

 

[gyngyn]

So, yield protection at the high end of stats seems relatively straightforward. How about the tier below that? In the huge sea of applicants in the 3.65-3.75/31-34 range, do low and mid-tiers also employ yield protection? Do they consider things like what state you are from and how likely they think it is an applicant will get in a state school and prefer that to their school? Do they not issue a II on that basis? Assuming that applicants are relatively even on other measures as well, do adcoms yield protect with this group, and if so, what are the most common variables considered?

Patterns are easy to pick up over time.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Patterns are easy to pick up over time.

So in that category referenced in my prior post, what are some of the more likely patterns that might factor into adcom decisions?

 

[Pyruvate]

Way off... Actually just got my first MD acceptance yesterday 😉

Congratulations! 🙂

 

[Citygirl44]

I also think that schools are wait listing many " low"ranking applicants that would normally be rejected at most schools, so that in APril when they see that the applicant was not accepted to any medical school , they can snatch them up,( because the applicant has no other options),thus protecting the school yield. Now more schools are realizing that "stats" aren't everything and they are giving more people a chance. I think I saw a chart somewhere on SDN that even a person with a 3.0 and a 29 MCAT has a very low chance of failing out of med school. So maybe some schools don't want to fight over the superstars when they know that almost everyone that enters school can be successful in the end. ( I thought I saw those stats on a chart, can't find it now, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. Lol).

 

[Officer Farva]

I also think that schools are wait listing many " low"ranking applicants that would normally be rejected at most schools, so that in APril when they see that the applicant was not accepted to any medical school , they can snatch them up,( because the applicant has no other options),thus protecting the school yield. Now more schools are realizing that "stats" aren't everything and they are giving more people a chance. I think I saw a chart somewhere on SDN that even a person with a 3.0 and a 29 MCAT has a very low chance of failing out of med school. So maybe some schools don't want to fight over the superstars when they know that almost everyone that enters school can be successful in the end. ( I thought I saw those stats on a chart, can't find it now, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. Lol).

Why is yield protection so important? What's the shame in accepting 700 out of 1000 interviewees.

 

[Citygirl44]

Why is yield protection so important? What's the shame in accepting 700 out of 1000 interviewees.

I agree. Just stating my opinion. Maybe yield protection has something to do with helping the school rankings? Idk

 

[Officer Farva]

I agree. Just stating my opinion. Maybe yield protection has something to do with helping the school rankings? Idk

I don't see why though. I am not drawn to high ranked schools because of interview/acceptance yield, but on research rep, location, and clinical rep.

 

[Med Ed]

Why is yield protection so important?

I have never heard anyone inside admissions use the phrase "yield protection." As mentioned before, it really comes down to resource management.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Why is yield protection so important? What's the shame in accepting 700 out of 1000 interviewees.

The yield protection usually comes before the interview. How can you interview 1000 folks who are very unlikely to come and you only have 800 interview slots and another 3500 folks you like who are more likely to come?

 

[Officer Farva]

The yield protection usually comes before the interview. How can you interview 1000 folks who are very unlikely to come and you only have 800 interview and another 3500 folks you like who are more likely to come?

My bad, I was thinking yield protection after the interview, not before. thanks.

 

[gyngyn]

Why is yield protection so important? What's the shame in accepting 700 out of 1000 interviewees.

It isn't. Even for US Snooze it hardly factors into their "equation."
Resources are precious, though.

 

[gyngyn]

So in that category referenced in my prior post, what are some of the more likely patterns that might factor into adcom decisions?

They will vary considerably from school to school.
The committee is unlikely to be in a position to see these patterns.
That is what the administration is for.

 

[NorthOfBroad]

The yield protection usually comes before the interview. How can you interview 1000 folks who are very unlikely to come and you only have 800 interview slots and another 3500 folks you like who are more likely to come?

Idk, these might have been courtesy interviews because I was in-state, but at Penn State and Temple my interviewers told me upfront they had no idea why I was even here and kept on asking questions about where I had applied, really focusing in on the "more prestigious" schools in the area. I was waitlisted at both. Seemed like an expensive way to manage resources. This process has been so random.

 

[gyngyn]

Idk, these might have been courtesy interviews because I was in-state, but at Penn State and Temple my interviewers told me upfront they had no idea why I was even here and kept on asking questions about where I had applied, really focusing in on the "more prestigious" schools in the area. I was waitlisted at both. Seemed like an expensive way to manage resources. This process has been so random.

Did you pull strings to get them?

 

[Officer Farva]

Idk, these might have been courtesy interviews because I was in-state, but at Penn State and Temple my interviewers told me upfront they had no idea why I was even here and kept on asking questions about where I had applied, really focusing in on the "more prestigious" schools in the area. I was waitlisted at both. Seemed like an expensive way to manage resources. This process has been so random.

I interviewed at Temple my first cycle with 0 non-clinical volunteering experience (which they are huge on), and they mentioned I came across as a research geek. I should not have been invited lol.

 

[NorthOfBroad]

Did you pull strings to get them?

Nope, attended undergrad for one of them though

I interviewed at Temple my first cycle with 0 non-clinical volunteering experience (which they are huge on), and they mentioned I came across as a research geek. I should not have been invited lol.

I had a fair amount of non-clinical and I lived very close to Temple. All in all, I have the luxury of not caring too much about the waitlists because I got into a school I love, however the option of being close to home would have been nice though. Like I said, I don't try to understand admission dynamics because it is so random to me. I guess it really boils down to the individuals in the room at the time of the interview and offer decisions.

 

[Officer Farva]

Nope, attended undergrad for one of them though

My alma mater rejected me post-II after an amazing performance by yours truly. They will not be getting multimillion dollar donation checks when I win the lottery. In fact, I will only donate to nearby schools to make them jealous 😉

 

[gyngyn]

Nope, attended undergrad for one of them though

Some medical schools will interview undergrads from the same school with somewhat more generous criteria but that is not what we consider a courtesy interview.

 

[NorthOfBroad]

Some medical schools will interview undergrads from the same school with somewhat more generous criteria but that is not what we consider a courtesy interview.

Sorry, I didn't know I guess I couldn't think of a reason other than a courtesy interview why my state schools would interview me only to tell me they think I wouldn't go there because of my stats and research focus. Oh well like I said it's an interesting dynamic and thankfully I was local so I didn't waste too much money.

 

[gyngyn]

Sorry, I didn't know I guess I couldn't think of a reason other than a courtesy interview why my state schools would interview me only to tell me they think I wouldn't go there because of my stats and research focus. Oh well like I said it's an interesting dynamic and thankfully I was local so I didn't waste too much money.

Some states also have a statutory obligation to interview some fixed percentage or proportion of IS applicants. They wouldn't waitlist someone with great stats just because of the stats, though. They get all of their high stats applicants from IS.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Some states also have a statutory obligation to interview some fixed percentage or proportion of IS applicants. They wouldn't waitlist someone with great stats just because of the stats, though. They get all of their high stats applicants from IS.

Are there any examples of state schools turning away people from their own state pre II because there stats are too high and they dont think the odds of them matriculating there arent high? I cant imagine that being the case but I do wonder if a school like Brody or ETSU ever sees a 3.9/39 applicant from their region and knows the odds of them matriculating there are extremely low and that perhaps influencing a decision they make on that applicant.

 

[gyngyn]

Are there any examples of state schools turning away people from their own state pre II because there stats are too high and they dont think the odds of them matriculating there arent high? I cant imagine that being the case but I do wonder if a school like Brody or ETSU ever sees a 3.9/39 applicant from their region and knows the odds of them matriculating there are extremely low and that perhaps influencing a decision they make on that applicant.

I haven't seen this happen. The state schools in smaller states get their best matriculants this way. They also don't give a hoot about "yield!" It's not like US Snooze is going to move them up (or down) because of a handful of acceptances.

 

[GrapesofRath]

I haven't seen this happen. The state schools in smaller states get their best matriculants this way. They also don't give a hoot about "yield!" It's not like US Snooze is going to move them up (or down) because of a handful of acceptances.

Is the main reason schools care about yield(outside of financial purposes) really because of those rankings?

It's not like any school publishes those rankings about yield so I always wondered if outside of finances why a school cares so much about yield. One reason could be that they dont have to wait until the last minute to be able to finish assembling their class but Im kind of "meh" on the idea that that's a major reason all these "resource management" steps are taken to the extent they are.

 

[gyngyn]

Is the main reason schools care about yield(outside of financial purposes) really because of those rankings?

It's not like any school publishes those rankings about yield so I always wondered if outside of finances why a school cares so much about yield. One reason could be that they dont have to wait until the last minute to be able to finish assembling their class but Im kind of "meh" on the idea that that's a major reason all these "resource management" steps are taken to the extent they are.

I have not ever heard an admissions dean talk about yield as a concern (and believe me, I've talked to a lot of them). LCME, the new MCAT, DACA, recruitment $, diversity, faculty participation... all this, but yield, never. If you pick your interviewees well, this should not be a huge issue.

Resource management, yes. This is important. They have to do this job within budget. They have to admit a class the institution is proud of within their budget.

 

[NorthOfBroad]

Some states also have a statutory obligation to interview some fixed percentage or proportion of IS applicants. They wouldn't waitlist someone with great stats just because of the stats, though. They get all of their high stats applicants from IS.

We are PA so we really don't have "true" state medical schools, a significant portion of the class comes OOS. I guess it was just more a fit-issue to be honest, the whole research vs. service balance which both Penn State and Temple are huge on. Or maybe all my lab geek friends and I suck at interviewing, strong possibility.

 

[Pantaloooons]

I would imagine it varies from school to school, but I wonder if post-interview, adcoms ever consider the fact that there's a very low probability that a candidate they would like to admit would actually attend their institution and therefore would rather accept someone else? This could be construed as "yield protection" but perhaps just more about being prudent and efficient about handing out acceptances. After all, it still takes time for them to go through the process of accepting someone, even if it's a rather minimal amount of time. At the end of the day, they would rather have a stable class sooner rather than scramble to fill a bunch of vacant seats later. That and they would like to balance out having the best class possible. Just my 2 cents

 

[gyngyn]

I would imagine it varies from school to school, but I wonder if post-interview, adcoms ever consider the fact that there's a very low probability that a candidate they would like to admit would actually attend their institution and therefore would rather accept someone else? This could be construed as "yield protection" but perhaps just more about being prudent and efficient about handing out acceptances. After all, it still takes time for them to go through the process of accepting someone, even if it's a rather minimal amount of time. At the end of the day, they would rather have a stable class sooner rather than scramble to fill a bunch of vacant seats later. That and they would like to balance out having the best class possible. Just my 2 cents

This would be a waste of resources and I have never seen a committee decision revolve around this.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Gonna take another swing at this. Seems to me the group most vulnerable to "resource management" are the tier of applicants below the top tier (stats wise).

Consider a 3.7+/32-34ish applicant, non-URM, with a very solid, attractive overall application. Let's say the applicant submits apps to popular OOS privates for this type of applicant like Wake and Jefferson. The candidate is from Ohio. Wake and Jefferson don't offer a II. Do they most likely not offer a II exclusively or largely based "on the merits," OR, do they ultimately not offer a II because they presume the candidate will be successful with their IS schools? Let's say Case is a little out of reach and publics OSU and UC reject or waitlist as the candidate is competitive but just a bit below their median stats. Candidate didn't apply to the other Ohio publics (obvious mistake) but Wake and Jefferson of course do not know that. I know all of this is hypothetical but I think the scenario is a realistic one. While acknowledging that Wake and Jeff could decide to not offer a II for any number of reasons, is it conceivable or even likely that "resource management" could play a major role in the decision?

 

[Med Ed]

Gonna take another swing at this. Seems to me the group most vulnerable to "resource management" are the tier of applicants below the top tier (stats wise).

Consider a 3.7+/32-34ish applicant, non-URM, with a very solid, attractive overall application. Let's say the applicant submits apps to popular OOS privates for this type of applicant like Wake and Jefferson. The candidate is from Ohio. Wake and Jefferson don't offer a II. Do they most likely not offer a II exclusively or largely based "on the merits," OR, do they ultimately not offer a II because they presume the candidate will be successful with their IS schools? Let's say Case is a little out of reach and publics OSU and UC reject or waitlist as the candidate is competitive but just a bit below their median stats. Candidate didn't apply to the other Ohio publics (obvious mistake) but Wake and Jefferson of course do not know that. I know all of this is hypothetical but I think the scenario is a realistic one. While acknowledging that Wake and Jeff could decide to not offer a II for any number of reasons, is it conceivable or even likely that "resource management" could play a major role in the decision?

Those numbers are well inside the curves of both Wake and Jefferson. Both schools fill with about two thirds OOS applicants. This indicates that both institutions successfully compete for candidates at the level you describe. Whether either institution would offer a hypothetical II to your hypothetical applicant, it would depend on the details of the application (aka "fit"), the composition of the rest of the pool, and whether the screener has had enough coffee that morning.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Gonna take another swing at this. Seems to me the group most vulnerable to "resource management" are the tier of applicants below the top tier (stats wise).

Consider a 3.7+/32-34ish applicant, non-URM, with a very solid, attractive overall application. Let's say the applicant submits apps to popular OOS privates for this type of applicant like Wake and Jefferson. The candidate is from Ohio. Wake and Jefferson don't offer a II. Do they most likely not offer a II exclusively or largely based "on the merits," OR, do they ultimately not offer a II because they presume the candidate will be successful with their IS schools?

You worry about "resource management" when an applicants stats are at the 90th percentile(which is around a 37 at both places), not the median(which is a 3.7/33 for both schools roughly).

What you are talking about with worrying about an applicant focusing on their IS schools might happen with states where historically very few of their applicants every leave the state. Texas comes to mind. MS, ND, WV are other examples where so few applicants ever leave their home state some schools might pause before offering them a II unless they really like the applicant or have a good reason to believe theyll attend(and even this is hardly some absolute rule). Ohio is not one of those states.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Those numbers are well inside the curves of both Wake and Jefferson. Both schools fill with about two thirds OOS applicants. This indicates that both institutions successfully compete for candidates at the level you describe. Whether either institution would offer a hypothetical II to your hypothetical applicant, it would depend on the details of the application (aka "fit"), the composition of the rest of the pool, and whether the screener has had enough coffee that morning.

OK, good. So you're saying the applicant's IS chances would not influence or impact Wake or Jeff at all in their decision-making?

 

[Nietzschelover]

You worry about "resource management" when an applicants stats are at the 90th percentile(which is around a 37 at both places), not the median(which is a 3.7/33 for both schools roughly).

What you are talking about with worrying about an applicant focusing on their IS schools might happen with states where historically very few of their applicants every leave the state. Texas comes to mind. MS, ND, WV are other examples where so few applicants ever leave their home state some schools might pause before offering them a II unless they really like the applicant or have a good reason to believe theyll attend(and even this is hardly some absolute rule). Ohio is not one of those states.

I'm following you, and I hope they don't overthink to this degree, but if Wake and Jeff felt pretty sure an applicant is likely to get an admit from, let's say Cincy, why wouldn't they consider that for the sake of resource management? Wouldn't you imagine that IS applicants who get admits to Cincy and Wake are going to choose Cincy at something like at least a 80/20 clip?

 

[GrapesofRath]

I'm following you, and I hope they don't overthink to this degree, but if Wake and Jeff felt pretty sure an applicant is likely to get an admit from, let's say Cincy, why wouldn't they consider that for the sake of resource management? Wouldn't you imagine that IS applicants who get admits to Cincy and Wake are going to choose Cincy at something like at least a 80/20 clip?

How are they going to know this? Cincinnati's median MCAT is a 34; you cant just look at an applicant with a 3.7/33 even if they are from that region and assume theyll end up a) getting in there b) going there.

There is no school in that situation for someone from Ohio, be it Wright State, NEOMED, Toledo where you can just assume the applicant is going to end up there.