Pros and Cons of your DO School

[Terpskins99]

You can PM me for my thoughts on KCUMB curriculum.

I am a graduating 4th year.

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[PunkmedGirl]

Sir/madam, unless you have PERSONALLY evaluated every single DO school in the country, you have no facts to back your claim, and from the way you are talking about NYU it IS your claim, that DO schools do not act the same way. That they do not provide the same type of experience to their students as NYU does.




Once again, you are incorrect. While this may be true with some schools there are a number of schools where this is unconditionally false. You have NO basis to back you claim. Whatever your agenda is, there is no foundation to it.




I am not going to pull punches however I felt that I needed to chime in. First of all, DO NOT lump me into your "b/c of too many happy hours we ended up as DO". The minute I found out about D.O., I knew that it worked with what I believed and still believe medicine to be. If you are unhappy because you went DO, then leave. No one is making you stay. This is America and as such as have free will and freedom. So exercise your freedom and leave whatever school you may be at.

Second of all. I am at a school where we have excellent hospitals to rotate through. Our clinicians teach us well and not all of them are DO's.

As a DO student, I do not feel as if I am second fiddle to an MD student. I am an equal. And if you do not feel that way, you have every right to, but do not ever tell me that I went DO because I felt that I was second rate and could not get into an MD school. Frankly sir/madam, I find it insulting.

I urge you to think carefully about what you want your lot in life to be. From your post, it does not seem as if you want to be a DO. There is nothing stopping you from leaving.

Well Said.

 

[mentulbloc]

Sir/madam, unless you have PERSONALLY evaluated every single DO school in the country, you have no facts to back your claim, and from the way you are talking about NYU it IS your claim, that DO schools do not act the same way. That they do not provide the same type of experience to their students as NYU does.




Once again, you are incorrect. While this may be true with some schools there are a number of schools where this is unconditionally false. You have NO basis to back you claim. Whatever your agenda is, there is no foundation to it.




I am not going to pull punches however I felt that I needed to chime in. First of all, DO NOT lump me into your "b/c of too many happy hours we ended up as DO". The minute I found out about D.O., I knew that it worked with what I believed and still believe medicine to be. If you are unhappy because you went DO, then leave. No one is making you stay. This is America and as such as have free will and freedom. So exercise your freedom and leave whatever school you may be at.

Second of all. I am at a school where we have excellent hospitals to rotate through. Our clinicians teach us well and not all of them are DO's.

As a DO student, I do not feel as if I am second fiddle to an MD student. I am an equal. And if you do not feel that way, you have every right to, but do not ever tell me that I went DO because I felt that I was second rate and could not get into an MD school. Frankly sir/madam, I find it insulting.

I urge you to think carefully about what you want your lot in life to be. From your post, it does not seem as if you want to be a DO. There is nothing stopping you from leaving.

In retrospect, I would have rather have been an MD, as I am more academically and research oriented. Having graduated as a DO has limited me in my ability to practice international medicine, as well as ascertain positions at various high ranking institutions, despite a very filled out CV and extremely competitive numbers, and we are not talking in the mid 600's on comlex or 240's on the USMLE, but well above. Furthermore, I have yet to find a DO published in JAMA or other worldly medicine journals to contact for mentorship.

With all this being said, I never once mentioned that DO's are inferior, but the education we receive is subpar compared to strong MD programs, forcing us to hack it out texts, journals, or whatever we can get our hands on. You can argue that until you are blue in the face, but our clinical training is not even close to ones recieved at large university facilities.

Answer these questions for me: How many CHF, Liver/Kidney Transplant, Bone Marrow, HIV, Neuro ICU services have you rotated on during your third and 4th years. How much exposure did you have to cutting edge research, VA data banks available for meta-analysis, and opportunities to engage in molecular bench-work? How many doctors have you worked with that are published in the "gold-standard" journals like JAMA, written chapters for major texts, or guest lectured across the country? How many patients have come to your hospital, ie flown or driven across the country, because people can't figure out whats wrong with them or can't control their symptoms?

I dont' ask this because I am mocking you or the profession, but illustrate the point that we as DO"s do not get this in our medical school training. We are confined to small community hospitals with docs that are often not 'academically' oriented, meaning, less evidence based. They may be fine clinicians, but I doubt many of them could spew off guidelines for when to begin allopurinal therapy (there is 6 criteria, do you know it?) The difficult patients we see are often referred out to larger academic centers for further management. Our hospitals don't have transplant services, HIV wards, Oncology wards, neurosurgical ICU's etc...

If you want family practice medicine in a small residential community and managing cholesterol, GERD, insomnia etc.. being a DO is fine, just don't expect to try to manage diabetic nephropathy or severe RA on your own, because I can gaurantee you, you did not treat enough of these people in your clerkships. If you want academic large scale referral centers, reconsider finishing your DO degree.

Love being a DO all you want, but if you got a 36 on your MCAT and had a 3.8 GPA with research in college I can gaurantee that you would have been at an MD school, sir/madam.

 

[goosedander]

In retrospect, I would have rather have been an MD, as I am more academically and research oriented. Having graduated as a DO has limited me in my ability to practice international medicine, as well as ascertain positions at various high ranking institutions, despite a very filled out CV and extremely competitive numbers, and we are not talking in the mid 600's on comlex or 240's on the USMLE, but well above. Furthermore, I have yet to find a DO published in JAMA or other worldly medicine journals to contact for mentorship.

With all this being said, I never once mentioned that DO's are inferior, but the education we receive is subpar compared to strong MD programs, forcing us to hack it out texts, journals, or whatever we can get our hands on. You can argue that until you are blue in the face, but our clinical training is not even close to ones recieved at large university facilities.

Answer these questions for me: How many CHF, Liver/Kidney Transplant, Bone Marrow, HIV, Neuro ICU services have you rotated on during your third and 4th years. How much exposure did you have to cutting edge research, VA data banks available for meta-analysis, and opportunities to engage in molecular bench-work? How many doctors have you worked with that are published in the "gold-standard" journals like JAMA, written chapters for major texts, or guest lectured across the country? How many patients have come to your hospital, ie flown or driven across the country, because people can't figure out whats wrong with them or can't control their symptoms?

I dont' ask this because I am mocking you or the profession, but illustrate the point that we as DO"s do not get this in our medical school training. We are confined to small community hospitals with docs that are often not 'academically' oriented, meaning, less evidence based. They may be fine clinicians, but I doubt many of them could spew off guidelines for when to begin allopurinal therapy (there is 6 criteria, do you know it?) The difficult patients we see are often referred out to larger academic centers for further management. Our hospitals don't have transplant services, HIV wards, Oncology wards, neurosurgical ICU's etc...

If you want family practice medicine in a small residential community and managing cholesterol, GERD, insomnia etc.. being a DO is fine, just don't expect to try to manage diabetic nephropathy or severe RA on your own, because I can gaurantee you, you did not treat enough of these people in your clerkships. If you want academic large scale referral centers, reconsider finishing your DO degree.

Love being a DO all you want, but if you got a 36 on your MCAT and had a 3.8 GPA with research in college I can gaurantee that you would have been at an MD school, sir/madam.

ummmm, have you heard of residency? that's what they're for.

 

[mentulbloc]

ummmm, have you heard of residency? that's what they're for.

Try to get into a residency that has these features. Every year there are one to five people per class that break down a door at a university hospital somewhere, but by and large if you want anything but PMR, anesthesia, FP, ?psych you are going to have a really heard time gaining entrance to large quaternary care centers for residencies. Don't fool yourselves, being a DO = community medicine for 80% of us.

Just continuing my rant: If you go to a small community hospital, you may only treat 3-5 RA patients. You go to UCLA you can round on an RA service with 10 patients at a time. How many DO residents has UCLA taken for internal medicine in the last 30 years? You go to a small community program for radiology you can read about molecular imaging, if you go to Stanford you can help write texts on it. How many DO's does Stanford have on staff. And we are not only talking about the teir one medical programs, how DO's does U.Maryland have? So fine, who cares right. I'll go where the really good research oriented DO's are, where DO's are at the forefront of medicine. Can someone please name an NIH funded hospital that has a predominance of DO's?


Better traning = more exposure. If you disagree search around Dartmouth's Institute for Quality Control database for articles. If you are not a facility that has wide breath of pathology on a consistent basis with physicians that are highly trained in it (ie found their research niche) your education is going to suffer and if I was a betting man, I would say 9 times out of 10 small community hospitals lack this.

 

[JaggerPlate]

In retrospect, I would have rather have been an MD, as I am more academically and research oriented. Having graduated as a DO has limited me in my ability to practice international medicine, as well as ascertain positions at various high ranking institutions, despite a very filled out CV and extremely competitive numbers, and we are not talking in the mid 600's on comlex or 240's on the USMLE, but well above. Furthermore, I have yet to find a DO published in JAMA or other worldly medicine journals to contact for mentorship.

With all this being said, I never once mentioned that DO's are inferior, but the education we receive is subpar compared to strong MD programs, forcing us to hack it out texts, journals, or whatever we can get our hands on. You can argue that until you are blue in the face, but our clinical training is not even close to ones recieved at large university facilities.

Answer these questions for me: How many CHF, Liver/Kidney Transplant, Bone Marrow, HIV, Neuro ICU services have you rotated on during your third and 4th years. How much exposure did you have to cutting edge research, VA data banks available for meta-analysis, and opportunities to engage in molecular bench-work? How many doctors have you worked with that are published in the "gold-standard" journals like JAMA, written chapters for major texts, or guest lectured across the country? How many patients have come to your hospital, ie flown or driven across the country, because people can't figure out whats wrong with them or can't control their symptoms?

I dont' ask this because I am mocking you or the profession, but illustrate the point that we as DO"s do not get this in our medical school training. We are confined to small community hospitals with docs that are often not 'academically' oriented, meaning, less evidence based. They may be fine clinicians, but I doubt many of them could spew off guidelines for when to begin allopurinal therapy (there is 6 criteria, do you know it?) The difficult patients we see are often referred out to larger academic centers for further management. Our hospitals don't have transplant services, HIV wards, Oncology wards, neurosurgical ICU's etc...

If you want family practice medicine in a small residential community and managing cholesterol, GERD, insomnia etc.. being a DO is fine, just don't expect to try to manage diabetic nephropathy or severe RA on your own, because I can gaurantee you, you did not treat enough of these people in your clerkships. If you want academic large scale referral centers, reconsider finishing your DO degree.

Love being a DO all you want, but if you got a 36 on your MCAT and had a 3.8 GPA with research in college I can gaurantee that you would have been at an MD school, sir/madam.

Wow ... you are a giant (insert whatever here). You should have gotten a PhD, not any sort of medical degree. Clearly all you care about is being published in big name journals. I'd say the majority of people who go to med school want to practice medicine ... not research. Wow, most arrogant attitude I've ever seen anywhere on the boards.

 

[goosedander]

Try to get into a residency that has these features. Every year there are one to five people per class that break down a door at a university hospital somewhere, but by and large if you want anything but PMR, anesthesia, FP, ?psych you are going to have a really heard time gaining entrance to large quaternary care centers for residencies. Don't fool yourselves, being a DO = community medicine for 80% of us.

Just continuing my rant: If you go to a small community hospital, you may only treat 3-5 RA patients. You go to UCLA you can round on an RA service with 10 patients at a time. How many DO residents has UCLA taken for internal medicine in the last 30 years? You go to a small community program for radiology you can read about molecular imaging, if you go to Stanford you can help write texts on it. How many DO's does Stanford have on staff. And we are not only talking about the teir one medical programs, how DO's does U.Maryland have? So fine, who cares right. I'll go where the really good research oriented DO's are, where DO's are at the forefront of medicine. Can someone please name an NIH funded hospital that has a predominance of DO's?


Better traning = more exposure. If you disagree search around Dartmouth's Institute for Quality Control database for articles. If you are not a facility that has wide breath of pathology on a consistent basis with physicians that are highly trained in it (ie found their research niche) your education is going to suffer and if I was a betting man, I would say 9 times out of 10 small community hospitals lack this.

ummmmm, have you heard of fellowships? that's what they're for. look, most physicians aren't trying to be academics. it looks like you went down the wrong road given your desires.

 

[mentulbloc]

Wow ... you are a giant (insert whatever here). You should have gotten a PhD, not any sort of medical degree. Clearly all you care about is being published in big name journals. I'd say the majority of people who go to med school want to practice medicine ... not research. Wow, most arrogant attitude I've ever seen anywhere on the boards.

?male gigalo? Address any point i made. Further I don't want a PhD, I want to feel competent in what I am doing. Seeking out research articles, finding a niche in the clinical research world, reading journals, doesn't make you a bookwormy bad doc who wishes he got his PhD. On the contrary, not doing so, atleast in my opinion would be grossly negligent. i also would like to hear your opinions regarding evidence based medicine and its practice at your community hospitals (journal clubs, implementing position/consensus statements), how often doctors can site why they are doing something.

In regard to the last line that sounds cocky, regarding MCAT scores and what not, can you name one with those accomplishments in your school? How did you do? Obviously this is not a surrogate for how good of a doctor you are going to become, probably the furtherest from it, but just to illustrate the point of how many chose the DO route, and how many were relegated to it.

 

[mentulbloc]

ummmmm, have you heard of fellowships? that's what they're for. look, most physicians aren't trying to be academics. it looks like you went down the wrong road given your desires.

man you have a lot to learn. try getting a fellowship at a large university hospital after IM residency at a small community hospital. Further- try getting a GI fellowship anywhere after you graduate from a place no one heard of.

Advice: go to google search. Type in 'Frieda". This will pull up the main MD residency page. You can research residencies and fellowships at any program in the country. More importantly, programs often post their match lists with where their residents attended medical school. They also post where they match post residency.

When doin this, first look at some bigger places, it doesn't have to be Harvard, start with NYU. See how many residents or fellows in any of their programs aside from PMR and anesthesia are DO's.

Next, pick a small community program. Compare where the residents are from. Then see how they do for fellowship, and what their fellowship match rates are.

After this, if you feel the need to drink a whole bottle of vodka followed by downing all the tylenol in your apartment b/c you just realized your school swindled you out of 200k dollars for a "holistic philosphy" where you get to have a more "hands on approach," take comfort in knowing that the majority of DO's applying to competitive fields (Ortho, Optho, Derm) or university programs (Penn, Hopkins) are right there with you.

 

[JasonS]

In retrospect, I would have rather have been an MD, as I am more academically and research oriented. Having graduated as a DO has limited me in my ability to practice international medicine, as well as ascertain positions at various high ranking institutions, despite a very filled out CV and extremely competitive numbers, and we are not talking in the mid 600's on comlex or 240's on the USMLE, but well above. Furthermore, I have yet to find a DO published in JAMA or other worldly medicine journals to contact for mentorship.

With all this being said, I never once mentioned that DO's are inferior, but the education we receive is subpar compared to strong MD programs, forcing us to hack it out texts, journals, or whatever we can get our hands on. You can argue that until you are blue in the face, but our clinical training is not even close to ones recieved at large university facilities.

Answer these questions for me: How many CHF, Liver/Kidney Transplant, Bone Marrow, HIV, Neuro ICU services have you rotated on during your third and 4th years. How much exposure did you have to cutting edge research, VA data banks available for meta-analysis, and opportunities to engage in molecular bench-work? How many doctors have you worked with that are published in the "gold-standard" journals like JAMA, written chapters for major texts, or guest lectured across the country? How many patients have come to your hospital, ie flown or driven across the country, because people can't figure out whats wrong with them or can't control their symptoms?

I dont' ask this because I am mocking you or the profession, but illustrate the point that we as DO"s do not get this in our medical school training. We are confined to small community hospitals with docs that are often not 'academically' oriented, meaning, less evidence based. They may be fine clinicians, but I doubt many of them could spew off guidelines for when to begin allopurinal therapy (there is 6 criteria, do you know it?) The difficult patients we see are often referred out to larger academic centers for further management. Our hospitals don't have transplant services, HIV wards, Oncology wards, neurosurgical ICU's etc...

If you want family practice medicine in a small residential community and managing cholesterol, GERD, insomnia etc.. being a DO is fine, just don't expect to try to manage diabetic nephropathy or severe RA on your own, because I can gaurantee you, you did not treat enough of these people in your clerkships. If you want academic large scale referral centers, reconsider finishing your DO degree.

Love being a DO all you want, but if you got a 36 on your MCAT and had a 3.8 GPA with research in college I can gaurantee that you would have been at an MD school, sir/madam.

Oh boo hoo, enough with the bellyaching already. You're not telling us anything new, smart guy. Yes we all know that there aren't many DOs on faculty at big name institutions. There also aren't many MDs from the lower tier allopathic schools in those positions either. I personally don't give a rat's ass. Instead of blaming the degree for your failures, why don't you man up and do something about it? Get your phd at one of the ivory towers and live out your dream. Cure cancer/AIDS. Whatever. Just stop bitching.

 

[mentulbloc]

Oh boo hoo, enough with the bellyaching already. You're not telling us anything new, smart guy. Yes we all know that there aren't many DOs on faculty at big name institutions. There also aren't many MDs from the lower tier allopathic schools in those positions either. I personally don't give a rat's ass. Instead of blaming the degree for your failures, why don't you man up and do something about it? Get your phd at one of the ivory towers and live out your dream. Cure cancer/AIDS. Whatever. Just stop bitching.

I will be at one next year opening doors for DO students who have similar aspirations.

 

[JasonS]

I will be at one next year opening doors for DO students who have similar aspirations.

There you go. That's the attitude that'll get you far in life.

 

[Bleurberry]

I will be at one next year opening doors for DO students who have similar aspirations.

I'm going to press you on some of your assertions.

What international practice rights have you found problematic?
Are you saying that your course instruction was inferior, your rotations, both? What, specifically, did you feel was lacking, and how did you determine it such? What was your point of departure?
And what makes you think your school, assuming for a moment that your assertions are all valid, is representative? Have you, for example, had first-hand exposure to PCOM and UMDNJ's rotations/curriculum? Sounds like you did a case study, but can you point us to your sources?

Thanks, and good morning!

 

[EastCoaster78]

Answer these questions for me: How many CHF, Liver/Kidney Transplant, Bone Marrow, HIV, Neuro ICU services have you rotated on during your third and 4th years.

many, many, many, too many if you ask me. But then again I did my 3rd and 4th year IM at Einstein medical center, and an IM rotation at HUP. Actually even on my familly med rotation in Beaver PA, I had many complicated inpatients.

How much exposure did you have to cutting edge research, VA data banks available for meta-analysis, and opportunities to engage in molecular bench-work?

Lil bit, guess if I wanted more I could've used elective time.

How many doctors have you worked with that are published in the "gold-standard" journals like JAMA, written chapters for major texts, or guest lectured across the country?

Quite a few.

How many patients have come to your hospital, ie flown or driven across the country, because people can't figure out whats wrong with them or can't control their symptoms?

Poeple do this?

 

[NontradICUdoc]

you ARE mocking the profession. You are NOT going to change minds on this board, rather I think that you are trying to cause problems and start an MD vs DO debate.

We want to be DO's. Obviously you do not. Leave the profession and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Good Day.

 

[TeamZissou]

Everyone, this is a fantastic thread with an enormous amount of information. This individual has voiced their concern and lets leave it at that. People should take ALL opinions in this thread with a grain of salt.

Lets not continue this debate which only clutters this thread or leads to it being locked....

 

[Bleurberry]

Answer these questions for me: How many CHF, Liver/Kidney Transplant, Bone Marrow, HIV, Neuro ICU services have you rotated on during your third and 4th years.

many, many, many, too many if you ask me. But then again I did my 3rd and 4th year IM at Einstein medical center, and an IM rotation at HUP. Actually even on my familly med rotation in Beaver PA, I had many complicated inpatients.

How much exposure did you have to cutting edge research, VA data banks available for meta-analysis, and opportunities to engage in molecular bench-work?

Lil bit, guess if I wanted more I could've used elective time.

How many doctors have you worked with that are published in the "gold-standard" journals like JAMA, written chapters for major texts, or guest lectured across the country?

Quite a few.

How many patients have come to your hospital, ie flown or driven across the country, because people can't figure out whats wrong with them or can't control their symptoms?

Poeple do this?

Short answer, YES!! Of course.
Long answer?
PCOM's clinicals include Abington, Lehigh Valley, Einstein, Pennsylvania Hospital, Geisinger, and the rest of the list is at www.pcom.edu.
JAMA's a joke right now, I don't know if I would be lauding the journal that's just decided to censor their very own "peer-reviewed" publication, and that's not to detract from your kudos, but I thought I'd bring it up because I just joined the AMA and I'm saddened that the editor has resorted to threatening people for exposing conflicts of interest of published articles to the media after being ignored by her office for months. Thanks for baring with me on that one.
If you do your IM residency at Pennsylvania Hospital (dual accredited, ACGME/AOA), you'll pass through PCOM's gerontology center as part of the program. PCOM's closest AOA ER program is through Einstein. We also work with Chestnut Hill and, well, like I said, just check out the clinical list on the website. I'm clarifying just to restore a sense of balance and integrity to this conversation before people walk away thinking that DO schools = exclusively community hospital education. But now that you mention it, I hear that PCOM's rural sites are excellent.

 

[mentulbloc]

Short answer, YES!! Of course.
Long answer?
PCOM's clinicals include Abington, Lehigh Valley, Einstein, Pennsylvania Hospital, Geisinger, and the rest of the list is at www.pcom.edu.
JAMA's a joke right now, I don't know if I would be lauding the journal that's just decided to censor their very own "peer-reviewed" publication, and that's not to detract from your kudos, but I thought I'd bring it up because I just joined the AMA and I'm saddened that the editor has resorted to threatening people for exposing conflicts of interest of published articles to the media after being ignored by her office for months. Thanks for baring with me on that one.
If you do your IM residency at Pennsylvania Hospital (dual accredited, ACGME/AOA), you'll pass through PCOM's gerontology center as part of the program. PCOM's closest AOA ER program is through Einstein. We also work with Chestnut Hill and, well, like I said, just check out the clinical list on the website. I'm clarifying just to restore a sense of balance and integrity to this conversation before people walk away thinking that DO schools = exclusively community hospital education. But now that you mention it, I hear that PCOM's rural sites are excellent.

DO schools do not rotate through university hospitals. We get at best university 2-3rd affiliations to clarify.

How come people consider me offensive when I say I think residency training is better at MD university hospitals, when other "where did you match threads" are filled with responses like "awesome match list," or "wow thats crazy" in response to those students who matched at Mayo, CCF, Duke etc... all MD programs? Furthermore how come year in and year out more DO's go to MD residencies?

 

[MossPoh]

and how many of those students actually know the strengths of the program? They only know the difficulty of matching outside of the loop.

There are some exceedingly solid community programs. In fact, many medical schools are beginning to shift their curriculum to a more community hospital orientation. I've heard far more people complain about not getting to do anything at the large university center type hospitals than I have from people that rotated at community hospitals where they are the next person in line after the doctor.

Is this pointless argument done yet? You brought the argument to a well meaning thread. It is cool if you want to debate the merits of each, but create your own damn thread for it instead of tainting one that WAS helpful.

 

[NontradICUdoc]

DO schools do not rotate through university hospitals. We get at best university 2-3rd affiliations to clarify.

How come people consider me offensive when I say I think residency training is better at MD university hospitals, when other "where did you match threads" are filled with responses like "awesome match list," or "wow thats crazy" in response to those students who matched at Mayo, CCF, Duke etc... all MD programs? Furthermore how come year in and year out more DO's go to MD residencies?

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

How dare you? Who the hell do you think you really are? Will you simply stop? We get it, you do not like being a DO. Enough.

Take it to the Allopathic Thread and keep it there. I will rotate through a University Hospital. A Primary University Hospital. OUR University Hospital.

Your shtick is old. Be gone and good bye. Stop crapping on other people's decisions just because you did not like your own. Get your research, get your mice, get your rats, and get your papers. No one cares anymore.

 

[NontradICUdoc]

love being a do all you want, but if you got a 36 on your mcat and had a 3.8 gpa with research in college i can gaurantee that you would have been at an md school, sir/madam.

do not pretend that you have any clue as to what i would or would not have done. I find you offensive and a downright *****hole.

I have more research experience in my pubic hair than you have in your body. You do not know me, do not pretend to know what my situation is.

Get out of my profession and stay out!!

 

[ChandutheMagici]

Having graduated as a DO has limited me in my ability to practice international medicine, as well as ascertain positions at various high ranking institutions, despite a very filled out CV and extremely competitive numbers, and we are not talking in the mid 600's on comlex or 240's on the USMLE, but well above.

Dude....Do you want a cookie? Maybe it's not being a DO that has limited your ability to ascertain positions, have you ever thought it's just you?

Furthermore, I have yet to find a DO published in JAMA or other worldly medicine journals to contact for mentorship.

Wow man, LAME. Are you seriously insinuating that being a DO prohibits you from publishing quality research?

Personally, one of the reasons I chose DO is because I hate research, HATE it.

With all this being said, I never once mentioned that DO's are inferior, but the education we receive is subpar compared to strong MD programs, forcing us to hack it out texts, journals, or whatever we can get our hands on.

Man, my BS detector is going ape ****. How is it subpar? Show me a study, oh researched one. And by study I mean a strong comparison of every DO school in comparison to every MD school. What are we basing this on? Accesibility and quality of professors? Preclerkship Curricula? Volume of material? Availability of Clinical Rotations?

You can argue that until you are blue in the face, but our clinical training is not even close to ones recieved at large university facilities.

Again, what are you basing this on? Exposure to certain complex chronic illnesses? Working with certain populations? The acuity of patients at large facilities? I'm really at a loss as to what you mean by differences in clinical training.

Answer these questions for me: How many CHF, Liver/Kidney Transplant, Bone Marrow, HIV, Neuro ICU services have you rotated on during your third and 4th years.

I checked, I have the possibility to rotate in each of these areas during 3rd and 4th years. EACH one of them. Didn't you know that the midwest is DO country?

How much exposure did you have to cutting edge research, VA data banks available for meta-analysis, and opportunities to engage in molecular bench-work? How many doctors have you worked with that are published in the "gold-standard" journals like JAMA, written chapters for major texts, or guest lectured across the country? How many patients have come to your hospital, ie flown or driven across the country, because people can't figure out whats wrong with them or can't control their symptoms?

Cutting edge research and being an MD fixes people, check.

They may be fine clinicians, but I doubt many of them could spew off guidelines for when to begin allopurinal therapy (there is 6 criteria, do you know it?)

Impress me dude, tell the criteria. You had me at "allopurinal"

The difficult patients we see are often referred out to larger academic centers for further management. Our hospitals don't have transplant services, HIV wards, Oncology wards, neurosurgical ICU's etc...

Yeah dude, that's medicine. It's called TERFING. This happens EVERYWHERE.

If you want family practice medicine in a small residential community and managing cholesterol, GERD, insomnia etc.. being a DO is fine, just don't expect to try to manage diabetic nephropathy or severe RA on your own, because I can gaurantee you, you did not treat enough of these people in your clerkships. If you want academic large scale referral centers, reconsider finishing your DO degree.

Hahahahahahahahaha, the DO I worked for was a board certified EM/FM guy. He managed several diabetic neuropathy patients, a few CHF, as well as several other very complex pathologies. He was old school though, trying to keep cost down for patients by not TERFING them everywhere. I seriously don't understand how he did it though, seeing as he graduated from TCOM back in the 80's. When they really didn't know anything, right?

As an example, one guy, I'll call him "Patient I don't know how he was still alive"

Patient I don't know how he was still alive

6 different BP medicines still at a 170/110 on average.
Hypothyroidism ( TSH was 79)
Diabetic Neuropathy (3 medications if I recall)
AND (Drum Roll please..)
Dialysis

1. I'm amazed that he was still alive.
2. After reading your diatribe I'm really amazed that he was still alive because he was being looked after by a DO.

Love being a DO all you want, but if you got a 36 on your MCAT and had a 3.8 GPA with research in college I can gaurantee that you would have been at an MD school, sir/madam.

You know that eh? Are you professor X?

Chandu

P.S. - Please stop ruining good threads. Actually, please stop talking unless it's in JAMA.

 

[JaggerPlate]

DO schools do not rotate through university hospitals. We get at best university 2-3rd affiliations to clarify.

How come people consider me offensive when I say I think residency training is better at MD university hospitals, when other "where did you match threads" are filled with responses like "awesome match list," or "wow thats crazy" in response to those students who matched at Mayo, CCF, Duke etc... all MD programs? Furthermore how come year in and year out more DO's go to MD residencies?

Forget it ... deleted original rant. Everyone else is going to cover it just fine.

 

[ChandutheMagici]

Forget it ... deleted original rant. Everyone else is going to cover it just fine.

Aw dude, I liked the first one. Now I'm bummed.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Aw dude, I liked the first one. Now I'm bummed.

Yeah ... it cut to the point, but took away from valid arguments that everyone else is making. Plus, I'm sick of getting infractions/warnings etc.

 

[mentulbloc]

DO's hating research and refusing to pick up a journal is one of the reasons the profession is sinking. The tide of medicine is evidence based, and having FP's manage diabetic neuropathy, i guess is ok, but managing nephropathy as previously mentioned is probably a bad idea b/c they are under trained in it and errors in diabetes mismanagement costs the medical community hundreds of millions a year.

If you want studies on the effectiveness of various types of educational systems you can go to Dartmouth's website for Quality Improvement Control, or check out U.Mizz medical professionals education website run by the Jolly's.

The criteria for allup. is actually listed right in your pocket medicine, published out of MGH. Perhaps listening to your FPs who often 'guess' what to do as opposed to finding an article to support it probably has limited you in your ability to actually seek out this information sin que na (low blow, i know but I had to throw one in). Or you could have just up-to-dated it.

I think you don't know what the def of turfing is. Turfing is like: hospital A has intervential radiologist do renal artery stents, while hospital B has nephrologists do stents. Referring patients to larger academic hospitals when your facility can't manage them I think is called responsiblility not turfing. Interestingly how often do you see UPenn refer patients to community hospitals?

I'm actually embarrassed by most of your statements. I don't know what the all the defensiveness is about. Actually I do, its the fact that there is a stigma about DO's and I am perpetuating it, when I myself am a DO. I feel calling attn to it (relegatd to community hospitals, volunteer faculty issues, lack of clinical research or publications, evidence for practice) can drive people to fix it, while you guys, Chandu et al, want to maintain this doctrine that DO's are unique and distinct and don't have to be like our MD counterparts because it gives you an excuse for entering osteopathy other then your subpar achievements in undergrad. And its true, the avg MCAT score/GPA/extracurric's is lower and there is no fighting this one. The fact is there is no difference between the type (though I do believe there is a difference in the implementation and resources) of education we receive and types of patients we treat aside from maybe 80 hours of OMM instruction that 95% of us will never use anyway.

Anyway, I think most of you will be glad to hear I think I am done posting on this thread. I realized that I am arguing mostly with first, second, and third years as opposed to people out in the profession or those going through the frustrations of the match. Most of you will not understand what I am talking about if you never rotate through larger university hospitals so I encourage you to do so, and also pick up a journal, peer reviewed article, etc... once in a while.

Good day - because it adds flare to the end of a post like so many believe on this forum

 

[group_theory]

This thread has gotten way too personal and defensive. Several of the posts are worthy of warnings and infarctions. Let's not derail a good thread.

Let's re-focus on the purpose of this thread. If the thread does not change direction and improves, a good thread will be closed and warnings/infractions/bans will be given.

 

[JaggerPlate]

DO's hating research and refusing to pick up a journal is one of the reasons the profession is sinking. The tide of medicine is evidence based, and having FP's manage diabetic neuropathy, i guess is ok, but managing nephropathy as previously mentioned is probably a bad idea b/c they are under trained in it and errors in diabetes mismanagement costs the medical community hundreds of millions a year.

If you want studies on the effectiveness of various types of educational systems you can go to Dartmouth's website for Quality Improvement Control, or check out U.Mizz medical professionals education website run by the Jolly's.

The criteria for allup. is actually listed right in your pocket medicine, published out of MGH. Perhaps listening to your FPs who often 'guess' what to do as opposed to finding an article to support it probably has limited you in your ability to actually seek out this information sin que na (low blow, i know but I had to throw one in). Or you could have just up-to-dated it.

I think you don't know what the def of turfing is. Turfing is like: hospital A has intervential radiologist do renal artery stents, while hospital B has nephrologists do stents. Referring patients to larger academic hospitals when your facility can't manage them I think is called responsiblility not turfing. Interestingly how often do you see UPenn refer patients to community hospitals?

I'm actually embarrassed by most of your statements. I don't know what the all the defensiveness is about. Actually I do, its the fact that there is a stigma about DO's and I am perpetuating it, when I myself am a DO. I feel calling attn to it (relegatd to community hospitals, volunteer faculty issues, lack of clinical research or publications, evidence for practice) can drive people to fix it, while you guys, Chandu et al, want to maintain this doctrine that DO's are unique and distinct and don't have to be like our MD counterparts because it gives you an excuse for entering osteopathy other then your subpar achievements in undergrad. And its true, the avg MCAT score/GPA/extracurric's is lower and there is no fighting this one. The fact is there is no difference between the type (though I do believe there is a difference in the implementation and resources) of education we receive and types of patients we treat aside from maybe 80 hours of OMM instruction that 95% of us will never use anyway.

Anyway, I think most of you will be glad to hear I think I am done posting on this thread. I realized that I am arguing mostly with first, second, and third years as opposed to people out in the profession or those going through the frustrations of the match. Most of you will not understand what I am talking about if you never rotate through larger university hospitals so I encourage you to do so, and also pick up a journal, peer reviewed article, etc... once in a while.

Good day - because it adds flare to the end of a post like so many believe on this forum

I'm sorry you didn't get into MD schools. Sounds like something that is going to be a huge chip on your shoulder your entire life. Terrible way to live.

 

[EastCoaster78]

Several of the posts are worthy of warnings and infarctions. QUOTE]

Thats just friggin cruel...

When I get a chance, I will post a PCOM review.

 

[mentulbloc]

I'm sorry you didn't get into MD schools. Sounds like something that is going to be a huge chip on your shoulder your entire life. Terrible way to live.

jagger, i hope i meet u some day so i can kick you in your ovary

 

[JaggerPlate]

jagger, i hope i meet u some day so i can kick you in your ovary

Aww the true maturity of a prize winning scientist. It's no wonder you can't get published anywhere, or get any decent university rotations, etc. Also, I don't know if I would even be able to meet you ... don't they keep the great, AIDS curing minds of each generation in high ivory towers?? Where else would you solve all the world's health problems ... and send your divine findings to the mecca that is JAMA. Also, don't women have two ovaries doctor???

 

[bigDinLV]

I have a question for Mentulbloc..


If DO programs are so pathetic and we all suck, why in the heck did you go to DO school and not MD? Obviously, you are very brilliant and don't belong

 

[SBK]

What in the flying hell hapenned to this thread?

 

[PunkmedGirl]

My thoughts exactly SBK.

 

[Murphy Brown]

Meanwhile could someone PLEASE post a pro/con list for KCUMB? It's one of the few schools that doesn't have one and I plan to apply this summer.

 

[ensuii]

It would be super and treeeeemendously appreciated if one of you super-busy folk at WVSOM would write a quick review. Free cookies to any takers?

 

[IntelInside]

can anyone do a NYCOM Lecture based one

 

[reirei]

I would like to hear from some GA-PCOM students about their experience in their rotations and how their matches went. Not much is said for this school which I'll be attending in the fall.

 

[curls85]

can anyone do a NYCOM Lecture based one

Yes please! Someone say something defending NYCOM...I want to get excited about medical school next year!!

 

[Bleurberry]

Yes please! Someone say something defending NYCOM...I want to get excited about medical school next year!!

NYCOM rules!!

I met some students up at the AAPM&R conference in Boston from NYCOM and they were great.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

I would like to hear from some GA-PCOM students about their experience in their rotations and how their matches went. Not much is said for this school which I'll be attending in the fall.

I'll put something together at the end of this year.

 

[MossPoh]

Aww the true maturity of a prize winning scientist. It's no wonder you can't get published anywhere, or get any decent university rotations, etc. Also, I don't know if I would even be able to meet you ... don't they keep the great, AIDS curing minds of each generation in high ivory towers?? Where else would you solve all the world's health problems ... and send your divine findings to the mecca that is JAMA. Also, don't women have two ovaries doctor???

He only has one foot to kick with. Hasn't mastered the two footed ovaries kick. Simply, the one footed ovary kick.

Now, lets pleasssssssssssse get this back on topic.

 

[JaggerPlate]

He only has one foot to kick with. Hasn't mastered the two footed ovaries kick. Simply, the one footed ovary kick.

Now, lets pleasssssssssssse get this back on topic.

The two footed ovary kick takes time to learn ... and surprisingly, many women don't like to let your practice on them. Sexist ...


Sorry ... BACK TO THE TOPIC, I will destroy the flow no longer.

 

[Sugarrush]

Another con of GA-PCOM is that it is full of SEC football fans who know little about college football outside of the SEC. In fact, I'm not even convinced that they even know anything about the SEC, other than "SEC RULES!!!! WHATCHA GONNA DO ABOUT IT????"

And on top of that, these SEC people don't just pick one school, for instance, the one they actually went to. They cheer for the whole SEC, which is highly ******ed. What if you asked me what my favorite NFL team was, and I told you I cheered for the NFC East?

The SEC is a traditionally strong conference, which has a total of three good teams, and many, many bad ones this year.

But it makes for some fun discussions. At least as long as my school is #1.

People watch the NFL?




No but seriously, I'm from Ga. and it wasn't until my sophomore year of college that I met someone who watched NFL regularly. Or who even had a specific team to root for. (Yes it was a yankee)

Down here, college sports rule. Pro-sports are something to watch when the college season is over.

I had to laugh at your post, we all think the exact opposite.
NFL? Who watches NFL? That's ******ed...

 

[JaggerPlate]

People watch the NFL?




No but seriously, I'm from Ga. and it wasn't until my sophomore year of college that I met someone who watched NFL regularly. Or who even had a specific team to root for. (Yes it was a yankee)

Down here, college sports rule. Pro-sports are something to watch when the college season is over.

I had to laugh at your post, we all think the exact opposite.
NFL? Who watches NFL? That's ******ed...

It's all about college for football, Pro (NBA) for basketball. For me, I don't give a crap about the NFL, nor do I care about NCAA basketball.

 

[TeamZissou]

Hate to do this but can you guys discuss sports over PMs? Sorry but I just have no interest in what particular ones you follow

 

[JaggerPlate]

Hate to do this but can you guys discuss sports over PMs? Sorry but I just have no interest in what particular ones you follow

::: rolls eyes :::

 

[MrBeauregard]

I would really, REALLY love for someone to post an in-depth review of WVSOM. Please.

 

[medschoolplease]

Curriculum: SBL or PBL, you choose. The SBL curriculum is well rounded. The strength of the SBL curriculum definitely is in anatomy, pharmacology, and 2nd year systems. Cannot vouch for PBL as I am not in that track.

Location: Lewisburg, WV. Great place with lots of character and culture. This is NOT a big city so do not expect big city things. However, Roanoke is a convenient 1.5 hr drive, and 4 hrs to DC. Beautiful scenery with many great outdoor adventure activities.

Cost: instate - around 19,000. out of state- around 50,000. Great news is that the new president is proposing a reduction(or at least a cap) on tuition. Cost of living is pretty great depending on what part of the country you are coming from. i.e. rent ranges from 300-600/month

Faculty: The faculty are truly here for the students! Pathology department was weak for my class (2011), however, there is a new pathologist (M.D.) on board and he is great. Clinical faculty are great and include both D.O. and M.D! The OMM faculty are wonderful! Bottom line all the faculty members are passionate about ensuring the students have learned the material and not just crammed for the exam.

Reputation: around 30 year reputation. the school has been ranked on the US News and World Reports medical school rankings for the past 10 years (interpret that as you will). The most recent class to take the COMLEX-PE came in at number one for some portion or other. The school is expanding and the new president is advocating for more research to be done at the school. That is not to say there is no research currently being done at the school. I along with many other students from the school went to the national AOA conference in Vegas to present research.

Clinical Rotations: Majority of 3rd year rotations must be completed in WV. Some appreciate this as an opportunity and others hate it. 3rd year rotations are decided using a lottery system (you choose where you want to go, if there are more people than there are slots at a rotation site the decision is left up to fate as to who will actually end up at the site). Rotations offer a variety for everyone. i.e. proximity to a large city, rural medicine

Housing: not too difficult if you start early. $300-600 +/- 200 depending on if you choose to live with roomates or live alone in a larger place.

Study areas: Well I would not choose a school based on the study areas that are available, however, this category is not one of the pros of WVSOM. However, there are some new buildings going up so the lack of study areas will likely change for the new incoming class.

Social Scene: There is plenty of camaraderie at WVSOM. It is a warm, friendly environment. There are 3 main bars: Del Sol offers a more lounge style with the occasional weekend dj. The Irish Pub is a student favorite. The Fort Savannah (local dive bar) is the after party spot of choice for students. There are 2 movie theaters both of which only show 2 movies at a time. However, Beckley, WV is a 35 min drive and there is a great movie theater there.

Local Hospitals: Greenbrier Valley Hospital. The school is not really affiliated with the hospital. Students participate in standardized patient encounters, and rotate at the Robert C Byrd clinic which is basically right on campus. Students also rotate with local physicians of different specialties and other health care providers as part of the clinical skills experience.

Board Prep: Much better!! Our class fought for a board review program and we got it. We are currently receiving live Kaplan lectures as well as Kaplan COMPLEX notes with qbank access.

Specialty: The school's mission is to train primary care physicians, however, the current graduating class had a few specialty matches for residency.

So here are my grades:

Curriculum: B+
Location: B
Cost: C
Financial Aid: A
Faculty: A
Reputation: A
Technology: A+
Study Space/Library: B
Library technology/Resources: B
Rotations: B
Social: A
Hospitals: B
Post Grad: A
Cafeteria Food: no cafeteria, however, i expect this to change with the new president
Cafeteria Prices: n/a

Overall Grade: B+

Medical school will be the best and worst experience all at the same time. I chose this school because the students and faculty foster a supportive and encouraging environment on top of a well rounded program.

 

[MrBeauregard]

Absolutely wonderful post, medschoolplease. I have been accepted there and am REALLY looking forward to matriculating. My mom and dad lived in West Virginia for a few years and he wanted to go to WVSOM back in the day but decided to go to Alderson-Broddus instead to become a PA.

I have high hopes for the school and everything you said just reinforced that. School is going to be what you make it no matter what, but it's nice to read an encouraging review like yours.

Thanks. If you have anything else to add, maybe you can PM me? Thanks again for the post.