PSA: USNWR rankings have essentially zero bearing on the quality of education provided by a medical school

[wondervisions]

I see a lot of folks (mainly pre-meds) on here argue that a student should shell out more money to go to a higher-ranked school because the quality of education is better. However, there is essentially zero evidence that the quality of education at any particular US med school is better than the quality of education at any other med school.

I've written about this before so I'll just quote my previous post here (on a discussion of Case Western vs Hofstra):

I don't know what else to say other than there is no evidence that any particular school will provide a better medical education than any other school. USNWR rankings do not take into account the quality of the medical education. The name brand or prestige of a school essentially has zero bearing on the quality of education you will receive.

Let me flip the question around: what evidence do others have that Case will provide a better medical education than Hofstra? In my opinion, the quality of your medical education will come down to your personal work ethic and luck of the draw when it comes to attendings and residents you are matched with in 3rd and 4th year.

I went to a top-20 undergrad and the professors who had the biggest name recognition were more often than not absolutely trash at teaching.

I always think that students should go to the school where they will be happiest and makes financial sense. Unless you are interested in neurosurgery/ortho/derm and nothing else, there's not a compelling reason to choose Case here.

TLDR; throw USNWR in the trash, go to the school where you will be happiest and makes financial sense.

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[Angus Avagadro]

I have worked with the top 10% and bottom quartile at both MD and DO schools. The top students are impressive. Students from either schools are indistinguishable in the bottom quartile also. I find it's usually personality ot work ethic that places them there. If you are smart enough to get in, you are smart enough to do well. I could never predict where a student was from. USNWR is basically the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval. Nothing more.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

I see a lot of folks (mainly pre-meds) on here argue that a student should shell out more money to go to a higher-ranked school because the quality of education is better. However, there is essentially zero evidence that the quality of education at any particular US med school is better than the quality of education at any other med school.

I've written about this before so I'll just quote my previous post here (on a discussion of Case Western vs Hofstra):



TLDR; throw USNWR in the trash, go to the school where you will be happiest and makes financial sense.

 

[wondervisions]

View attachment 339864

You might be surprised how often folks on here conflate rankings with quality.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

You might be surprised how often folks on here conflate rankings with quality.

I honestly just wanted a chance to finally use that Kate McKinnon gif

 

[KnightDoc]

You might be surprised how often folks on here conflate rankings with quality.

Actually, it appears as though it is you who is conflating quality with prestige and increased opportunity. I don't think I have EVER seen anyone on SDN arguing quality of education. In my observation, the discussion always seems to revolve around the value (or lack thereof) of the prestige, connections, research opportunities, exposure, etc., etc., etc. that are attached to rankings. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say the Harvard clinical lectures were far superior to those at Kutztown.

 

[wondervisions]

Actually, it appears as though it is you who is conflating quality with prestige and increased opportunity. I don't think I have EVER seen anyone on SDN arguing quality of education. In my observation, the discussion always seems to revolve around the value (or lack thereof) of the prestige, connections, research opportunities, exposure, etc., etc., etc. that are attached to rankings. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say the Harvard clinical lectures were far superior to those at Kutztown.

See this thread

Case Western vs Hofstra

Hi all! So today I got off the waitlist at Hofstra, and I have until Friday at 5pm to decide. In late april, I dwindled my current acceptances down to CWRU and stayed on some waitlists with Hofstra turning into an A today. Although I think I know where I should go, I am quite unsure about the...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[KnightDoc]

See this thread

Case Western vs Hofstra

Hi all! So today I got off the waitlist at Hofstra, and I have until Friday at 5pm to decide. In late april, I dwindled my current acceptances down to CWRU and stayed on some waitlists with Hofstra turning into an A today. Although I think I know where I should go, I am quite unsure about the...

forums.studentdoctor.net

I totally forgot about that!!!

 

[Raryn]

It doesn’t matter whether the rankings correlate with actual quality. They probably don’t. You’ll probably get a quality education at any accredited school that has access to all the core specialties, and your individual effort will matter more than anything.

What does matter is whether they correlate with *perceived* quality, or what program directors, jobs, and the general public think of when they see your school name.

 

[Lucca]

the French definition of prestige is useful here, because it literally means “an illusion, enchantment, or delusion”. In other words: it’s an artifice, a façade, fake. In my experience this is completely true, but just like that *cough* other thread *cough* on an adjacent topic, the subtlety that is hard to grasp and inevitably leads to pointless circuitous debate is this one:

It doesn’t matter whether the rankings correlate with actual quality. They probably don’t. You’ll probably get a quality education at any accredited school that has access to all the core specialties, and your individual effort will matter more than anything.

What does matter is whether they correlate with *perceived* quality, or what program directors, jobs, and the general public think of when they see your school name.

Anyone who has actually been to medical school can tell u that it’s almost completely irrelevant what the schools curriculum is because you will be teaching yourself from third party materials for most of pre-clin anyway. If your school materials are just as good or better, that’s great! But it really will have very little bearing on your overall experience or education, anyway.

The absolute best thing your school can do for you is get out of your way and that means: flexible timelines, minimal mandatory nonsense that isn’t educationally or personally valuable, responsive admin that is receptive to student needs, minimal to zero consequences for academic or personal setbacks, help you minimize your debt with scholarships or funding, help you maximize your residency app by removing barriers like AOA, preclin grades, having strong home departments in your specialties of interest, having good research opportunities that will pay you money, etc.

While it’s not necessarily the case that you will find this at a “top” school and certainly you can find it at schools all over the USNWR rankings, in my experience the traditionally “prestigious” schools tend to carry a lot of these perks.

 

[Goro]

I see a lot of folks (mainly pre-meds) on here argue that a student should shell out more money to go to a higher-ranked school because the quality of education is better. However, there is essentially zero evidence that the quality of education at any particular US med school is better than the quality of education at any other med school.

I've written about this before so I'll just quote my previous post here (on a discussion of Case Western vs Hofstra):



TLDR; throw USNWR in the trash, go to the school where you will be happiest and makes financial sense.

In other breaking news, water is wet.

The only people who care about US Snooze and Worst Report are prestige-obsessed pre-meds and med school Deans.

 

[deleted555445]

I see a lot of folks (mainly pre-meds) on here argue that a student should shell out more money to go to a higher-ranked school because the quality of education is better. However, there is essentially zero evidence that the quality of education at any particular US med school is better than the quality of education at any other med school.

I've written about this before so I'll just quote my previous post here (on a discussion of Case Western vs Hofstra):



TLDR; throw USNWR in the trash, go to the school where you will be happiest and makes financial sense.

Counterpoint: USNWR rankings are highly correlated with my mom being proud of me.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

In other breaking news, water is wet.

Meanwhile in Soviet Russia, wet is water.

 

[Fano]

I wonder how many people who say prestige doesn't matter drive expensive cars and live in big houses they aren't even close to needing. I won't say you've wasted your money on a Mercedes if you stop telling us we're wasting our money at Harvard.

 

[Goro]

I wonder how many people who say prestige doesn't matter drive expensive cars and live in big houses they aren't even close to needing. I won't say you've wasted your money on a Mercedes if you stop telling us we're wasting our money at Harvard.

Someone who went to ACOM or Drexel will make the same salary as an attending as someone who went to Harvard

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

didn't we have a thread closed yesterday for same topic?

 

[Raryn]

Someone who went to ACOM or Drexel will make the same salary as an attending as someone who went to Harvard

Well, maybe.

If they go into the same specialty, the guy who went to Drexel - and thus is less likely to stay in academics - will probably make *more* than the guy who went to Harvard. That said, the guy in Harvard might have an easier time matching a high-earning specialty to start with.

 

[Fano]

didn't we have a thread closed yesterday for same topic?

That thread may have been closed but the topic will never be. This is why I felt the need to troll things a bit.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

As I said before, prestige may help finding the first job if you are looking in different region of the county (than your medical school) and more and more new docs are going for W-2 than 1099 or K1. Again, don't go into debt for prestige but if parents can pay go for it 🙂

 

[deleted314957]

If I hear this BS word “Prestige” again I will vomit. None of you know the first thing about decades of medical practice.
I do. Unless and until you master the three “A’s” of medicine
( and for that matter any other job) which are “ affability, availability and ability”, in that order, you can attend the most “ prestigious “ whatever. And, if you are an a**h***, not around when needed or have sub standard skills you will have a substandard career.

 

[Fano]

I'd rather be an a**h*** who graduated from Harvard than an a**h*** from Drexel. If you're going to be an a**h***, best be a prestigious one. Just sayin.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

For what it's worth to anyone, one of the professors on my thesis committee got his PhD from Yale in Immunology (and his Bachelors from MIT). So one could say, he's somebody that was brought up in prestigous environments.

After my May thesis committee meeting, he told me when he was interacting with the smartest people in his field he could never guess which college they went to for undergrad or PhD. Intelligent and sucessful people came from literally everywhere. However, he said he could 100% tell if someone went to a "prestigious" school by way of them being an arrogant jack***.

Just his $0.02

edit: typo

 

[wondervisions]

I wonder how many people who say prestige doesn't matter drive expensive cars and live in big houses they aren't even close to needing. I won't say you've wasted your money on a Mercedes if you stop telling us we're wasting our money at Harvard.

I’m just a student- don’t own a house and don’t own a merc. I also never said prestige doesn’t matter. But prestige does not reflect the quality of education.

 

[doomer_md]

I see a lot of folks (mainly pre-meds) on here argue that a student should shell out more money to go to a higher-ranked school because the quality of education is better.

This literally never happens. When’s the last time you’ve seen someone actually choose a school because of their i n n o v a t i v e c u r r i c u l u m.

 

[Blueprint Med School]

I see a lot of folks (mainly pre-meds) on here argue that a student should shell out more money to go to a higher-ranked school because the quality of education is better. However, there is essentially zero evidence that the quality of education at any particular US med school is better than the quality of education at any other med school.

I've written about this before so I'll just quote my previous post here (on a discussion of Case Western vs Hofstra):



TLDR; throw USNWR in the trash, go to the school where you will be happiest and makes financial sense.

This. The only time prestige matters is if you're doing something ultra competitive in an ultra competitive location. But for most of us, it's all about keeping happiness high and debt burden low. If your state MD school gives you a free ride, take it to the bank every time.

David D MD - USMLE and MCAT Tutor
Med School Tutors

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

This literally never happens. When’s the last time you’ve seen someone actually choose a school because of their i n n o v a t i v e c u r r i c u l u m.

My kid did that this cycle. Gave up slightly higher ranked school based on curriculum and other opportunities.

 

[Fano]

For what it's worth to anyone, one of the professors on my thesis committee got his PhD from Yale in Immunology (and his Bachelors from MIT). So one could say, he's somebody that was brought up in prestigous environments.

After my May thesis committee meeting, he told me when he was interacting with the smartest people in his field he could never guess which college they went to for undergrad or PhD. Intelligent and sucessful people came from literally everywhere. However, he said he could 100% tell if someone when to a "prestigious" school by way of them being an arrogant jack***.

Just his $0.02

Anecdotes like this are silly. I graduated from non-prestigious colleges and work with plenty of smart people. I know plenty of arrogant jack***es who didn't go to prestigious schools. So what? Prof. Yale has his anecdote and I have my counter-anecdote. Both prove nothing. Btw, the smartest ones tend to be the arrogant jack***es. 🤔

 

[Fano]

My kid did that this cycle. Gave up slightly higher ranked school based on curriculum and other opportunities.

Mine turned down an Ivy in a ultra-selective undergrad program because of fit. The Ivy grads clearly earned higher starting salaries but spending 4 yrs at place likely being unhappy & potentially unsuccessful was not worth it.

 

[Fano]

I’m just a student- don’t own a house and don’t own a merc. I also never said prestige doesn’t matter. But prestige does not reflect the quality of education.

I also never said anything about the quality of education. My position is that prestige matters. Who are we kidding? All things being equal, who here wouldn't take the more prestigious school? It will always matter to us. It's human nature. The fact that we are always debating this should tell us something. The only real debate is what is it worth to you. Much like the decision to join an exclusive country club. If you have money to burn, sure why not? I would never begrudge others for their lifestyle choices. (Even though they are all arrogant jack***es. And who knows? Maybe they really do benefit from all the connections they make with all the other arrogant jack***es.) Life isn't only about the money you earn as an attending.

 

[wondervisions]

I also never said anything about the quality of education. My position is that prestige matters. Who are we kidding? All things being equal, who here wouldn't take the more prestigious school? It will always matter to us. It's human nature. The fact that we are always debating this should tell us something. The only real debate is what is it worth to you. Much like the decision to join an exclusive country club. If you have money to burn, sure why not? I would never begrudge others for their lifestyle choices. (Even though they are all arrogant jack***es. And who knows? Maybe they really do benefit from all the connections they make with all the other arrogant jack***es.) Life isn't only about the money you earn as an attending.

Sorry mate, I think you've misunderstood the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Fano]

Sorry mate, I think you've misunderstood the point I'm trying to make.

This was your reply to my post which said nothing about quality of education.

But prestige does not reflect the quality of education.

So I thought I would further clarify my position, which again has nothing to do with quality of education. Sorry mate if that wasn't clear to you.

 

[Anterior Chamber]

As far as quality, it's unpredictable where you will find the splendid teacher that will be a long term mentor. The rankings also don't reflect how much the school supports the students.

I interviewed at one top residency where one faculty said he didn't know how I got n passed the screening because I did not come from the top medical schools. This is not commonplace.

In general, I think it doesn't matter much though a really new school can be at a disadvantage. DO schools tend be at a disadvantage.

 

[bpinyourarea]

This literally never happens. When’s the last time you’ve seen someone actually choose a school because of their i n n o v a t i v e c u r r i c u l u m.

Lol, there's a significant number of people on SDN alone who turn down full-rides at UCLA-tier schools to pay $100k+ to go to Harvard. We can debate all day about the impact of prestige and rankings or how much they're worth, but the reality is prestige will always exist, and there will always be a rat race for it.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Lol, there's a significant number of people on SDN alone who turn down full-rides at UCLA-tier schools to pay $100k+ to go to Harvard. We can debate all day about the impact of prestige and rankings or how much they're worth, but the reality is prestige will always exist, and there will always be a rat race for it.

There are some who seek celebrity status and pedigree. I believe the majority at those places are there because they are talented and the "Celebrity " status means little to them. This has been my experience. Then we all know the minority where they tell you where they trained within 30 seconds of meeting you. Frankly, outside of academics and being a Chairperson, doctors for the most part don't care about your degree or where you trained.

 

[Goro]

Lol, there's a significant number of people on SDN alone who turn down full-rides at UCLA-tier schools to pay $100k+ to go to Harvard. We can debate all day about the impact of prestige and rankings or how much they're worth, but the reality is prestige will always exist, and there will always be a rat race for it.

This is true, but irrelevant to the OP, which was asking about quality of medical education and USNWR rankings.

 

[Current-big-pharma-shill]

façade

I trust this man’s opinion. He knows letters I don’t.

 

[deleted314957]

Mine turned down an Ivy in a ultra-selective undergrad program because of fit. The Ivy grads clearly earned higher starting salaries but spending 4 yrs at place likely being unhappy & potentially unsuccessful was not worth it.

Wait a minute. “ ivy grads clearly earned higher starting salaries”? We are talking about med school, not some job after 4 yrs of undergrad. After med school, you do a residency. You then generally do a fellowship. Your specialty, connections and geographic location are more determinant of your salary. When physicians are job seeking, no one really cares about undergrad. By the time MD’s are seeking their first job, undergrad is truly ancient history and does not play into the occasion. New MD’s don’t get any salary recognition for where they went to undergrad. I should know. I’ve been involved directly in the hiring of several doctors. Have you ever hired a physician? I don’t believe you are in the field of medicine as an MD or DO.

I think you may be doing a bit of trolling.

 

[Fano]

Wait a minute. “ ivy grads clearly earned higher starting salaries”? We are talking about med school, not some job after 4 yrs of undergrad. After med school, you do a residency. You then generally do a fellowship. Your specialty, connections and geographic location are more determinant of your salary. When physicians are job seeking, no one really cares about undergrad. By the time MD’s are seeking their first job, undergrad is truly ancient history and does not play into the occasion. New MD’s don’t get any salary recognition for where they went to undergrad. I should know. I’ve been involved directly in the hiring of several doctors. Have you ever hired a physician? I don’t believe you are in the field of medicine as an MD or DO.

I think you may be doing a bit of trolling.

Obviously, I was giving an example of choosing fit over prestige, which I believe is very much consistent with some of this thread's discussion and, in particular, to the post I was responding to. I said nothing about Ivy med school grads getting paid more nor did I imply it. By taking a snippet of what I wrote out of context to justify your absurd ad hominem is nothing short of SDN malpractice. I certainly hope you read & comprehend patient charts better than that.

 

[theendisnigh]

Obviously, I was giving an example of choosing fit over prestige, which I believe is very much consistent with some of this thread's discussion and, in particular, to the post I was responding to. I said nothing about Ivy med school grads getting paid more nor did I imply it. By taking a snippet of what I wrote out of context to justify your absurd ad hominem is nothing short of SDN malpractice. I certainly hope you read & comprehend patient charts better than that.

👀

 

[deleted314957]

Obviously, I was giving an example of choosing fit over prestige, which I believe is very much consistent with some of this thread's discussion and, in particular, to the post I was responding to. I said nothing about Ivy med school grads getting paid more nor did I imply it. By taking a snippet of what I wrote out of context to justify your absurd ad hominem is nothing short of SDN malpractice. I certainly hope you read & comprehend patient charts better than that.

I don’t Mr. Hominem. I am retired for ages. And my point still stands.If you are an MD i’ll go back to work.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

I certainly hope you read & comprehend patient charts better than that.

 

[ChiDO]

I certainly hope you read & comprehend patient charts better than that.

I only read the chart so I can read the hospitalists or med students history. This way I don't have to hear the patient tell a ten minute boring story about why they are admitted for knee pain, but start the story time-line ten years earlier.

 

[IlDestriero]

Most people aren’t and won’t ever be in the top 1 or 2 percent in competitive sub specialties and/or elite academics where any of this is theoretically relevant which is why everyone says just go to the cheaper school if there is a significant difference and the school offers comprehensive training opportunities. Then work hard, score high, maximize opportunities, go to a high quality competitive residency, outperform others again, go to an ultra competitive fellowship and then sell out for the money in a premier private practice and never look back.
Win-win.
I don’t know who the Op is referring to when saying people recommend going into great debt for a prestige name medical school. It’s just not relevant to the majority of students and their careers, and maybe nobody at all.

 

[wondervisions]

Most people aren’t and won’t ever be in the top 1 or 2 percent in competitive sub specialties and/or elite academics where any of this is theoretically relevant which is why everyone says just go to the cheaper school if there is a significant difference and the school offers comprehensive training opportunities. Then work hard, score high, maximize opportunities, go to a high quality competitive residency, outperform others again, go to an ultra competitive fellowship and then sell out for the money in a premier private practice and never look back.
Win-win.
I don’t know who the Op is referring to when saying people recommend going into great debt for a prestige name medical school. It’s just not relevant to the majority of students and their careers, and maybe nobody at all.

Spend some time on the school x vs y forum and you’ll see what I mean.

 

[KnightDoc]

Most people aren’t and won’t ever be in the top 1 or 2 percent in competitive sub specialties and/or elite academics where any of this is theoretically relevant which is why everyone says just go to the cheaper school if there is a significant difference and the school offers comprehensive training opportunities. Then work hard, score high, maximize opportunities, go to a high quality competitive residency, outperform others again, go to an ultra competitive fellowship and then sell out for the money in a premier private practice and never look back.
Win-win.
I don’t know who the Op is referring to when saying people recommend going into great debt for a prestige name medical school. It’s just not relevant to the majority of students and their careers, and maybe nobody at all.

You are, of course, correct. It's only relevant to the select few who have the opportunity to attend a prestige name medical school, whose family is not in a financial position (or refuses) to allow the person to avoid debt and yet is ineligible for typically very generous need-based aid, and who also does not receive merit money.

In other words, a tiny slice of a tiny slice of a tiny slice of a tiny slice of the applicant pool, but, no, it's certainly not nobody at all. Every year, there are undoubtedly hundreds of people across the 30 schools in the T20 who eagerly make this choice, for better or worse.

 

[Current-big-pharma-shill]

You are, of course, correct. It's only relevant to the select few who have the opportunity to attend a prestige name medical school, whose family is not in a financial position (or refuses) to allow the person to avoid debt and yet is ineligible for typically very generous need-based aid, and who also does not receive merit money.

In other words, a tiny slice of a tiny slice of a tiny slice of a tiny slice of the applicant pool, but, no, it's certainly not nobody at all. Every year, there are undoubtedly hundreds of people across the 30 schools in the T20 who eagerly make this choice, for better or worse.

Parents make too much to qualify for need based aid but “we became successful without college so if you want higher education then that is on you” gang represent.

 

[deleted555445]

Parents make too much to qualify for need based aid but “we became successful without college so if you want higher education then that is on you” gang represent.

Wish that was a box to check on FAFSA

 

[KnightDoc]

Wish that was a box to check on FAFSA

There is, since FAFSA does not require parental information for grad students. Unfortunately, med schools don't care, and want it anyway. The good news is that doctors make enough to service debt, in addition to all of the available debt forgiveness programs. Plus, as is the theme of this thread, there is no requirement to choose the most prestigious, most expensive option! 🙂

 

[IlDestriero]

You are, of course, correct. It's only relevant to the select few who have the opportunity to attend a prestige name medical school, whose family is not in a financial position (or refuses) to allow the person to avoid debt and yet is ineligible for typically very generous need-based aid, and who also does not receive merit money.

In other words, a tiny slice of a tiny slice of a tiny slice of a tiny slice of the applicant pool, but, no, it's certainly not nobody at all. Every year, there are undoubtedly hundreds of people across the 30 schools in the T20 who eagerly make this choice, for better or worse.

My point wasn’t about debt, it was about not really needing a top 10ish medical school to succeed if you work hard, make your own opportunities, and rise above the rest at every opportunity. It’s like who becomes an Admiral in the Navy. It’s the person who outshines everyone else all the time every step of the way. Early promote material from day one. One of my partners went to a unranked college, a very average, at best, medical school not known for research, then a great residency, and then a premier fellowship and now with us here and has published 3 articles in the last few years as the primary author in the most prestigious medical journals. Not specialty specific journals, the big dogs. How? Because they are driven, smart, and work hard. Every day. They didn’t need Harvard.
Big things have small beginnings.

 

[deleted314957]

My point wasn’t about debt, it was about not really needing a top 10ish medical school to succeed if you work hard, make your own opportunities, and rise above the rest at every opportunity. It’s like who becomes an Admiral in the Navy. It’s the person who outshines everyone else all the time every step of the way. Early promote material from day one. One of my partners went to a unranked college, a very average, at best, medical school not known for research, then a great residency, and then a premier fellowship and now with us here and has published 3 articles in the last few years as the primary author in the most prestigious medical journals. Not specialty specific journals, the big dogs. How? Because they are driven, smart, and work hard. Every day. They didn’t need Harvard.
Big things have small beginnings.

You need the basics, med school, residency and perhaps fellowship, ANYWHERE ( preferably USA) and THEN you need affability, availability, and ability. AND luck.

Much of your future is going to be determined FOR you.
YOU will just deal with whatever you are dealt.