Psych money

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
N

NeuroKlitch

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2017
Messages
139
Reaction score
38
Many of these , here's on more . I got the loans of life , and also wouldn't mind making tons of money . Where is the big bucks in psych ? 500-750k type deals. Is it possible ?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Members don't see this ad.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
NeuroKlitch said:
Many of these , here's on more . I got the loans of life , and also wouldn't mind making tons of money . Where is the big bucks in psych ? 500-750k type deals. Is it possible ?

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

possible with combining several different jobs/positions, working a ton of hours, and a lot of call, like Shikima says.

making 400 k is a lot more doable.
 
michaelrack said:
possible with combining several different jobs/positions, working a ton of hours, and a lot of call, like Shikima says.

making 400 k is a lot more doable.
Click to expand...

And OP will have a better quality of life while not losing so much money to taxes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
NeuroKlitch said:
Many of these , here's on more . I got the loans of life , and also wouldn't mind making tons of money . Where is the big bucks in psych ? 500-750k type deals. Is it possible ?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

Recording contracts and authoring a best-seller would be other options, indeed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
If I was in it just for the cash there is literally every other specialty that I could go into. Just wanted to know about the options in psych since that's what I'm going to pursue .


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
NeuroKlitch said:
Many of these , here's on more . I got the loans of life , and also wouldn't mind making tons of money . Where is the big bucks in psych ? 500-750k type deals. Is it possible ?
Click to expand...

Find a small psych center, become the medical director, and build it from the ground up. Eventually you run the place and hire other psychiatrists to work under you. I've worked with 2 psychiatrists who did exactly this and make well over 500k. One of them works a lot (60 hour weeks), the other is notorious in the area for barely working now. 500k is possible for any field if you're creative enough and willing to put in the work.

Edit: I should add that both of these physicians have been in practice over 15 years and it took them both quite some time and a lot of work to build those hospitals to where they are today. So while you can potentially make 7 figures through this route, it's certainly not a path to take if you want to be making big bucks straight out of residency or early on.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
NeuroKlitch said:
If I was in it just for the cash there is literally every other specialty that I could go into. Just wanted to know about the options in psych since that's what I'm going to pursue .


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Click to expand...
There aren't many jobs that break 500k, and the ones that exist are generally extremely high hour or extremely rural, or are director positions you'll need to put in many, many years to get. 750k isn't going to happen unless you're doing something highly illegal or you've found the perfect drug trial gig. Maybe if you run a clinic employing several others. Don't expect to be making big money in a field that earns 62k/year less than the average physician in the country overall.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
There is a local psychiatrist who has 10 mid-level providers working under him. He mentioned one time while i was shadowing him that he makes somewhere between $80,000 - $100,000 off each one of them yearly while paying them close to an average pcp salary. He then also takes his own patients in the outpatient setting, and does some impatient work as well. That being said it took him years to get this point (probably 20). So while it's not impossible I'm sure he is an absolute outlier in the psych world.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
If you cannot see why it is absolutely unethical to get rich off other people's misery then there's no helping you. It is absolutely unethical to make vast sums of money from direct patient care, because what is best for your bottom line is not what is best for your patients. There is nothing wrong with wanting to make money, but there is something wrong with wanting to make a quick buck from providing patient care. You can expect to be well paid for what it is that we do, and can choose to invest wisely, buy property, or have business ventures etc that will give you passive income streams.

However since you asked this is where the money is:

1. Become a quack offering SPECT imaging to diagnose maladies which you then treat with industrial quantities of psychostimulants and your own range of nutriceuticals and gross over 20 million a year (Daniel Amen is the most popular psychiatrist in America. To most researchers and scientists, that’s a very bad thing.)

2. Become CEO of a major hospital system and earn millions (Herb Pardes is a psychiatrist who was CEO of New York Presbyterian and even in retirement gets fat annual payouts by sitting on the board). (http://nypost.com/2011/11/27/rich-ceos-performing-cashectomy-on-hosps/)

3. Become President and CEO of a psychiatric hospital like Sheppard Pratt for over a million (Non Profit Data - dive into all the numbers)


4. Run a pill mill dispensing suboxone and benzos to allcomers, potentially generating millions (Drug-dealing South Philly doc admits earning $5 million selling pills to patients)

4. Become the head of the ABPN and get rich by creating increasingly onerous requirements for board certification and provoking the ire of your colleagues for over 900k like Larry Faulkner (Larry Faulkner: Million Dollar Shrink | Behavenet )

5. Become a drug company shill and key opinion leader (KOL) and really ***** yourself out to pharma, for 500k-1million+ (Dollars for Docs: The Top Earners)

6. Become a prison doc or state hospital doc, defrauding the government by fraudulently documenting your hours for over $800k (Soledad prison psychiatrist paid $800K suspended)

7. Become a dean of a medical school for 500k-1million (e.g. New Valley med school dean's pay could reach $630,000 annually)

8. Become chair of a large prestigious department of psychiatry for >600k-700k

9. Become an old psychoanalyst in the UES charging $600+/hr to the wealthy (Challenges of $600-a-Session Patients)

10. Become an expert witness with hourly fees of $500/hr at the lower end and 900+/hr at the higher end (though this work is highly variable from year to year in what cases you may get). As a hired gun who will say anything for the right fee, you might trash your reputation and lose the respect of your colleagues but rest assured attorney will call you when no one else will take their case!


I didn't get into discussing insurance fraud because that is the obvious way to start, but my favorite example of creative billing is the psychiatrist who billed one patient he had created multiple personality disorder in for group therapy, billing for each of the personalities!!! (Suit Targets Group Therapy Bills for 1 Patient)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 17 users
NeuroKlitch said:
Many of these , here's on more . I got the loans of life , and also wouldn't mind making tons of money . Where is the big bucks in psych ? 500-750k type deals. Is it possible ?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

Choose at least one:

1. Work hours most are not willing to work. 80 hours a week will get you there.

2. Live in places most are not willing to live. Working in extreme rural areas will get you there.

3. Do things most are not willing to do. Being an entrepreneur or becoming a c-executive (or something similar) will get you there. I guess fraud counts in this category, but that isn't sustainable long-term.

Working as a salaried psychiatrist for 40 hours a week with no call in a hip metropolitan city on the coast will not get you there. Overall, if you really want it, it's doable.
 
splik said:
If you cannot see why it is absolutely unethical to get rich off other people's misery then there's no helping you. It is absolutely unethical to make vast sums of money from direct patient care, because what is best for your bottom line is not what is best for your patients. There is nothing wrong with wanting to make money, but there is something wrong with wanting to make a quick buck from providing patient care. You can expect to be well paid for what it is that we do, and can choose to invest wisely, buy property, or have business ventures etc that will give you passive income streams.

However since you asked this is where the money is:

1. Become a quack offering SPECT imaging to diagnose maladies which you then treat with industrial quantities of psychostimulants and your own range of nutriceuticals and gross over 20 million a year (Daniel Amen is the most popular psychiatrist in America. To most researchers and scientists, that’s a very bad thing.)

2. Become CEO of a major hospital system and earn millions (Herb Pardes is a psychiatrist who was CEO of New York Presbyterian and even in retirement gets fat annual payouts by sitting on the board). (http://nypost.com/2011/11/27/rich-ceos-performing-cashectomy-on-hosps/)

3. Become President and CEO of a psychiatric hospital like Sheppard Pratt for over a million (Non Profit Data - dive into all the numbers)


4. Run a pill mill dispensing suboxone and benzos to allcomers, potentially generating millions (Drug-dealing South Philly doc admits earning $5 million selling pills to patients)

4. Become the head of the ABPN and get rich by creating increasingly onerous requirements for board certification and provoking the ire of your colleagues for over 900k like Larry Faulkner (Larry Faulkner: Million Dollar Shrink | Behavenet )

5. Become a drug company shill and key opinion leader (KOL) and really ***** yourself out to pharma, for 500k-1million+ (Dollars for Docs: The Top Earners)

6. Become a prison doc or state hospital doc, defrauding the government by fraudulently documenting your hours for over $800k (Soledad prison psychiatrist paid $800K suspended)

7. Become a dean of a medical school for 500k-1million (e.g. New Valley med school dean's pay could reach $630,000 annually)

8. Become chair of a large prestigious department of psychiatry for >600k-700k

9. Become an old psychoanalyst in the UES charging $600+/hr to the wealthy (Challenges of $600-a-Session Patients)

10. Become an expert witness with hourly fees of $500/hr at the lower end and 900+/hr at the higher end (though this work is highly variable from year to year in what cases you may get). As a hired gun who will say anything for the right fee, you might trash your reputation and lose the respect of your colleagues but rest assured attorney will call you when no one else will take their case!


I didn't get into discussing insurance fraud because that is the obvious way to start, but my favorite example of creative billing is the psychiatrist who billed one patient he had created multiple personality disorder in for group therapy, billing for each of the personalities!!! (Suit Targets Group Therapy Bills for 1 Patient)
Click to expand...
Here's to living long enough to be forgiven, should you choose to walk this route OP...
leo-toast-9.w529.h352.gif
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Working on a per hour basis to achieve 500-750k is not a good idea. The marginal tax rate after reaching the top tax bracket due to progressive tax scheme, especially in a high state tax state (i.e. California) can be easily above 50%, especially if you are receiving 1099 income. So working 80 hours a week to get there is fiscally irresponsible.

Unfortunately, in some specialties such as surgery, you can't really get away with not working 60 hours a week, and you can't really get away with not having call. It's really not an ideal situation (i.e. if you are paid a fixed salary of 650k as an orthopod at a facility, every incremental call you do you get paid LESS. This is mainly why people are SO unhappy. The more they work they less they get paid, AND so little leisure time), you don't want that job. In psych, you can. I think that's the main draw.

As a few above pointed out (mostly in jest), to reach 500-750k in salary at an organization as a psychiatrist is highly unlikely. You can't really plan to become Herbert Pardes. When people say oh blah blah I'll just commit Medicare fraud or become CEO of hospital...really, what is the LIKELIHOOD of that happening? When you make a decision you need to examine the EXPECTED VALUE of that decision. Even if you can make 750k as the CEO of mega-non-profit-USA, how good are you really in getting up there up the hierarchy, and what path would you have to be on to get there? You need to integrate over a 30 year career to calculate the TOTAL expected salary, not just a random yearly salary.

The only tax-efficient way to achieve an effective CONSUMPTIVE income in the 500-750k range, without actually having that much on your tax returns is to reinvest business income, after incorporating, and pay yourself a dividend. However, given corporate tax is also high right now you can't really make this amount easily as a pass-through entity.

I think when you ask questions like this, it kind of shows a degree of ignorance in terms of how money in America actually works. Once you get to the top marginal, you want to report as little as possible personal income through sheltering. People who make that kind of salary (i.e. orthopedic surgeons and law partners) often have arrangements with the facility they work at to have a large amount of income generated through reimbursement buried in deferred comp/profit sharing, which is then leveraged to consume or invest to produce passive income streams as needed (i.e. capital gain conversion). In corporate America, this is called "stock options" (i.e. the OPTION of selling stocks at a some price cannot be taxed until the option is exercised, much as money in a deferred comp plan is not yours until you distribute, but such instruments can still be borrowed against as a collateral, to say, buy a house, or a boat, or pay for private school, etc. Furthermore, such instruments hopefully grow in time in value faster than your salary). If and when you do distribute, you only pay personal taxes on the amount you consume, not the amount you work, since hopefully you won't be working at that point. Working yourself to 750k as a clinician is a fools errand no matter what field you are in, because you'll be MOSTLY working to pay taxes. So when you say 750k you need to be more precise. Do you mean pretax total income on individual return, or do you mean 750k of consumption, or do you mean a salaried job paying 750k, or a passive instrument producing 750k a year?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 18 users
As others have pointed out, directly billing this much for the work you do is unlikely (unless you are, say, a major department chair). If you start your own practice and build up to add more therapists, NPs, and psychiatrists, you may be able to generate those kinds of numbers. That requires more risk and a skill set beyond just clinical medicine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
One of my attendings makes $700k working psych ER 3 days a week and some adult/child private practice the other days, plus a suboxone clinic. Does a half day PP every Saturday.

Another attending told me he made $1M/yr doing all private practice.. probably worked 70 hours a week I imagin.. but it's definitely possible.

These numbers are before taxes btw. Seems you definitely have to work for yourself to some degree to hit those numbers.
 
sluox said:
Working on a per hour basis to achieve 500-750k is not a good idea. The marginal tax rate after reaching the top tax bracket due to progressive tax scheme, especially in a high state tax state (i.e. California) can be easily above 50%, especially if you are receiving 1099 income. So working 80 hours a week to get there is fiscally irresponsible.

Unfortunately, in some specialties such as surgery, you can't really get away with not working 60 hours a week, and you can't really get away with not having call. It's really not an ideal situation (i.e. if you are paid a fixed salary of 650k as an orthopod at a facility, every incremental call you do you get paid LESS. This is mainly why people are SO unhappy. The more they work they less they get paid, AND so little leisure time), you don't want that job. In psych, you can. I think that's the main draw.

As a few above pointed out (mostly in jest), to reach 500-750k in salary at an organization as a psychiatrist is highly unlikely. You can't really plan to become Herbert Pardes. When people say oh blah blah I'll just commit Medicare fraud or become CEO of hospital...really, what is the LIKELIHOOD of that happening? When you make a decision you need to examine the EXPECTED VALUE of that decision. Even if you can make 750k as the CEO of mega-non-profit-USA, how good are you really in getting up there up the hierarchy, and what path would you have to be on to get there? You need to integrate over a 30 year career to calculate the TOTAL expected salary, not just a random yearly salary.

The only tax-efficient way to achieve an effective CONSUMPTIVE income in the 500-750k range, without actually having that much on your tax returns is to reinvest business income, after incorporating, and pay yourself a dividend. However, given corporate tax is also high right now you can't really make this amount easily as a pass-through entity.

I think when you ask questions like this, it kind of shows a degree of ignorance in terms of how money in America actually works. Once you get to the top marginal, you want to report as little as possible personal income through sheltering. People who make that kind of salary (i.e. orthopedic surgeons and law partners) often have arrangements with the facility they work at to have a large amount of income generated through reimbursement buried in deferred comp/profit sharing, which is then leveraged to consume or invest to produce passive income streams as needed (i.e. capital gain conversion). In corporate America, this is called "stock options" (i.e. the OPTION of selling stocks at a some price cannot be taxed until the option is exercised, much as money in a deferred comp plan is not yours until you distribute, but such instruments can still be borrowed against as a collateral, to say, buy a house, or a boat, or pay for private school, etc. Furthermore, such instruments hopefully grow in time in value faster than your salary). If and when you do distribute, you only pay personal taxes on the amount you consume, not the amount you work, since hopefully you won't be working at that point. Working yourself to 750k as a clinician is a fools errand no matter what field you are in, because you'll be MOSTLY working to pay taxes. So when you say 750k you need to be more precise. Do you mean pretax total income on individual return, or do you mean 750k of consumption, or do you mean a salaried job paying 750k, or a passive instrument producing 750k a year?
Click to expand...
Most people mean pre-tax income of 750k, a consumptive income of 750k is ridiculous and unachievable from a psych job alone without anything going on on the side. OP could be that foolish though, I guess.
 
Mad Jack said:
Most people mean pre-tax income of 750k, a consumptive income of 750k is ridiculous and unachievable from a psych job alone without anything going on on the side. OP could be that foolish though, I guess.
Click to expand...

Doesn't Business pay a lot more than medicine? :p

Maybe after he graduates and does residency, he can do pharm or something?
 
What everyone's trying to tell you, OP, is that psychiatry is not going to be a good vehicle for your stated goal.

If you want to take part in the Paris-Dakar rally and you're driving a Mini Cooper, people are going to tell you to stop and change vehicles before you get any further. This is the same thing, I believe. The kind of income you are talking about is not as common in medicine as it used to be, but it's still to be found -- in other specialties.

Also, is anyone else hearing this:
Psych money's not looking for a cure
Psych money's not worried bout the sick among the poor
Let's go dancing on the backs of the bruised
Psych money's not one to choose
Click to expand...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Just got roasted by like 4 different psychiatrists at least lol. not looking to make a quick buck. Just hard work. Also day dreaming while putting procrastinating doing my final 80 UW questions for my OBGYN shelf tomorrow. Thanks for the responses !


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
hypoman said:
One of my attendings makes $700k working psych ER 3 days a week and some adult/child private practice the other days, plus a suboxone clinic. Does a half day PP every Saturday.

Another attending told me he made $1M/yr doing all private practice.. probably worked 70 hours a week I imagin.. but it's definitely possible.

These numbers are before taxes btw. Seems you definitely have to work for yourself to some degree to hit those numbers.
Click to expand...

Interesting . Yeah psych ER is hard work . Know someone doing that and she works 17 hour shifts regularly .


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
At this point, if I were you I'd be curious why those particular high numbers come to mind. It may be worth spending some time thinking what "500k-750k" means to you. I think your question is very different depending on if your actual goal is "I want financial security and early retirement, I think I need $x random big number income" versus "I think I need 3 large homes, multiple international vacations per year, and want to frequently buy luxury vehicles, and I know that will require $500k+ income/year." If the first is closer to the mark, why don't you take a few hours and put together an actual projected budget (can find lots of software/guides online) for what you think you want? You may find that in the end, you need a lot less than $500k to achieve your goals.

If the second scenario is closer, I doubt psychiatry would be the most effective or fastest way to achieve a lavish, material-focused lifestyle, if that is the primary goal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
michaelrack said:
possible with combining several different jobs/positions, working a ton of hours, and a lot of call, like Shikima says.

making 400 k is a lot more doable.
Click to expand...

What type of job/set up allows for 400k? How many hours a week? I love psych, the patients, and the work, but I'd like to know I could reasonably expect to make high 3's low 4's in whatever career I choose.
 
surfguy84 said:
What type of job/set up allows for 400k? How many hours a week? I love psych, the patients, and the work, but I'd like to know I could reasonably expect to make high 3's low 4's in whatever career I choose.
Click to expand...
Find a place that pays you per RVU ~$60-$65. Either do inpatient or outpatient. Learn how to bill and code. Do therapy. Generate 25-30 RVUs per day and work 5 days per week, perhaps additional call, if desired, and 46 weeks per year.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
st2205 said:
Find a place that pays you per RVU ~$60-$65. Either do inpatient or outpatient. Learn how to bill and code. Do therapy. Generate 25-30 RVUs per day and work 5 days per week, perhaps additional call, if desired, and 46 weeks per year.
Click to expand...

Thanks for laying that out. How many hours a week is that?

Also, any idea what running a (ethical) suboxone business would generate in revenue, and of time requirement on my part?
 
surfguy84 said:
What type of job/set up allows for 400k? How many hours a week? I love psych, the patients, and the work, but I'd like to know I could reasonably expect to make high 3's low 4's in whatever career I choose.
Click to expand...

Inpatient combined with weekend moonlighting combined with a side outpatient practice, either employed or private practice
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
michaelrack said:
Inpatient combined with weekend moonlighting combined with a side outpatient practice, either employed or private practice
Click to expand...

How many hours a week are we talking? And is that moonlighting every weekend?

And also importantly...does this involve having to work rural and/or midwest? Or could one string this together in a desirable east/west coast city?
 
Last edited:
Lol people are so all over the place, we've had posters here say that they work 40 hours a week pp and make 500k then we have other people saying you gotta work 60 hours a week to make 400k...damn there's no consistency
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Merely said:
Lol people are so all over the place, we've had posters here say that they work 40 hours a week pp and make 500k then we have other people saying you gotta work 60 hours a week to make 400k...damn there's no consistency
Click to expand...
From what I've gathered... location, location, location.
NYC your gunna have to work a lot more than in North Dakota to make the same amount of money.
 
Merely said:
Lol people are so all over the place, we've had posters here say that they work 40 hours a week pp and make 500k then we have other people saying you gotta work 60 hours a week to make 400k...damn there's no consistency
Click to expand...

You see no consistency because there ISNT consistency. The variation is huge and depends on so many variables that it's impossible to give you a "typical" job that would give you a number. It's like asking, what kind of a two-bed two bath house can I buy for 300k? It's a meaningless question.

medhead1990 said:
From what I've gathered... location, location, location.
NYC your gunna have to work a lot more than in North Dakota to make the same amount of money.
Click to expand...

Except, this is not true. If there is a place where you CAN make 500k+ working 20 hours a week, it WOULD be NYC.

This is why these salary threads are so confusing to premed and med students. 50%+ of psychiatrists don't take insurance. You have NO clue how much money they ACTUALLY make. In a market where 50% and increasing proportion of MDs don't take salaried jobs, measuring income based on a salary paid by facilities for a 9-5 job is completely meaningless IMHO.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
there are virtually no single employed jobs available that will get you 400k or more. To make the big money, you either need to be in private practice (and build it up over a few years) or have a flexible hours inpatient position with some side jobs/weekend coverage ( and this also takes a few years to develop).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
sluox said:
You see no consistency because there ISNT consistency. The variation is huge and depends on so many variables that it's impossible to give you a "typical" job that would give you a number. It's like asking, what kind of a two-bed two bath house can I buy for 300k? It's a meaningless question.



Except, this is not true. If there is a place where you CAN make 500k+ working 20 hours a week, it WOULD be NYC.

This is why these salary threads are so confusing to premed and med students. 50%+ of psychiatrists don't take insurance. You have NO clue how much money they ACTUALLY make. In a market where 50% and increasing proportion of MDs don't take salaried jobs, measuring income based on a salary paid by facilities for a 9-5 job is completely meaningless IMHO.
Click to expand...

Just a patient, but this is absolutely right, one can make a lot in NYC -- a PP psych charging $500/45 min. session, working 20 hours week, seeing roughly 26 patients per week, 48 weeks per year, generates $624K/year. Now, not everyone can make $500/session, but $350 is sort of the norm right now, for 20 hours/week, roughly 26 sessions/week, 48 weeks/year, that would still generate almost $437K/year. If you had another gig, maybe an academic gig that paid something and provided benefits, you could do really well. People in NYC believe in therapy, and there are a lot of people with money who are happy to pay cash for a good psychiatrist who does therapy. Now of course, the COL in NYC is ridiculous, so it may not feel like a lot of money...
 
With reimbursement changes in the past several years, what are your thoughts on this topic in 2022?
 
splik said:
If you cannot see why it is absolutely unethical to get rich off other people's misery then there's no helping you. It is absolutely unethical to make vast sums of money from direct patient care, because what is best for your bottom line is not what is best for your patients. There is nothing wrong with wanting to make money, but there is something wrong with wanting to make a quick buck from providing patient care. You can expect to be well paid for what it is that we do, and can choose to invest wisely, buy property, or have business ventures etc that will give you passive income streams.

However since you asked this is where the money is:

1. Become a quack offering SPECT imaging to diagnose maladies which you then treat with industrial quantities of psychostimulants and your own range of nutriceuticals and gross over 20 million a year (Daniel Amen is the most popular psychiatrist in America. To most researchers and scientists, that’s a very bad thing.)

2. Become CEO of a major hospital system and earn millions (Herb Pardes is a psychiatrist who was CEO of New York Presbyterian and even in retirement gets fat annual payouts by sitting on the board). (Rich CEOs performing cashectomy on hosps)

3. Become President and CEO of a psychiatric hospital like Sheppard Pratt for over a million (Non Profit Data - dive into all the numbers)


4. Run a pill mill dispensing suboxone and benzos to allcomers, potentially generating millions (Drug-dealing South Philly doc admits earning $5 million selling pills to patients)

4. Become the head of the ABPN and get rich by creating increasingly onerous requirements for board certification and provoking the ire of your colleagues for over 900k like Larry Faulkner (Larry Faulkner: Million Dollar Shrink | Behavenet )

5. Become a drug company shill and key opinion leader (KOL) and really ***** yourself out to pharma, for 500k-1million+ (Dollars for Docs: The Top Earners)

6. Become a prison doc or state hospital doc, defrauding the government by fraudulently documenting your hours for over $800k (Soledad prison psychiatrist paid $800K suspended)

7. Become a dean of a medical school for 500k-1million (e.g. New Valley med school dean's pay could reach $630,000 annually)

8. Become chair of a large prestigious department of psychiatry for >600k-700k

9. Become an old psychoanalyst in the UES charging $600+/hr to the wealthy (Challenges of $600-a-Session Patients)

10. Become an expert witness with hourly fees of $500/hr at the lower end and 900+/hr at the higher end (though this work is highly variable from year to year in what cases you may get). As a hired gun who will say anything for the right fee, you might trash your reputation and lose the respect of your colleagues but rest assured attorney will call you when no one else will take their case!


I didn't get into discussing insurance fraud because that is the obvious way to start, but my favorite example of creative billing is the psychiatrist who billed one patient he had created multiple personality disorder in for group therapy, billing for each of the personalities!!! (Suit Targets Group Therapy Bills for 1 Patient)
Click to expand...
Regarding #10, you can bill a good hourly and be ethical and not necessarily a hired gun. Although there is a fluctuation in cases , you can get a dependable fluctuation with a good average volume over the year.
 
painballer27 said:
With reimbursement changes in the past several years, what are your thoughts on this topic in 2022?
Click to expand...

dude you are the funniest type of forum poster. SDN is such a good throwback to the old days of the internet
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Splik has it right. Psychiatry will earn you reasonable money for your effort after so much school and loans. I understand why this is a major topic for students who are deep in debt. On the other hand, psychiatrists survive and do well and pay off loans. Calmete o te, you will be fine and stop panicking. If you are worrying about being able to reach the American dream, you will be fine. You will buy a house and you will buy a car without financing if you are smart. You will not do as well as a silicone's valley gnome of knowledge. But very few do and I'm not one to disparage how much they suffer and excel or where just in the right place. There are other impressive people who didn't go into medicine. You took the safe path and you will be fine.
 
These threads are always kind of funny. If you are trying to figure out how much money you can generate with your own productivity, that can be pretty limited and very dependent on location, settings, and individual factors. If a chef is a really good cook, he can charge a lot of money for his food, but when he is not cooking, I’m not going to pay that same amount. He has to be able to provide a similar level of quality with other peoples work in order to really succeed. In short, the way to make the most money at this business is to be good at business.

I can generate 20k a month fairly easily through my own productivity, probably with equivalent effort to a psychiatrist generating about 30k or so a month. I don’t like to grind that hard and also just do patient care so I am trying to limit my productivity to about 12 to 15 per month and then have others generate 5 to 10 in revenue a month and I get a split. I have three therapy interns right now with a 50/50 split so if each gets to 10 then I get to 30k a month. Hire a few more and it goes up from there. I have found that I can supervise and support about six therapists comfortably while doing about 20 patient hours. What is good is that the office support expense is fairly consistent from one practitioner up to the seven counting me. So roughly me at 15k and six at 5k is 45k a month. Not too shabby. This is not exactly the setup I’m looking at creating but close enough to illustrate.

Obviously psychiatry practice is different, but I could see a psychiatrist partnering with a psychologist and maximizing revenue in that way as well. If I had a psychiatrist it would make sense for them to get a piece of the pie from all of the therapists in addition to what they generate directly. Downside is they would have to spend some time listening to the therapists to help justify that. As painful as it can be to listen to MA level therapists, it does help ensure better patient care and if you are working directly with them, then you can sort out if what the patient is telling you about their crappy therapist is true or not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Fan_of_Meehl said:
Recording contracts and authoring a best-seller would be other options, indeed.
Click to expand...
Oh god no. Recording contracts are the second worst type of contracts out there. It’s a loan for the production and distribution of 16 albums, recordings financed through the loan, with a percentage of sales going to the artist, after management of 10-20%, after distribution costs (owned by a subsidiary of the record company to ensure its never “profitable”), with sales having a 10% reduction for breakage even though that doesn’t happen since the days of records, and sales excluding box office, which means you make most of your money off of merch and satellite radio plays. And if you’re in a band where someone writes everything, the split is 80% to the front man and 20% to everyone else.


The worst deal is purchase price on winning horse studs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Interesting to see my thread randomly come back to life 5 years later lol. About to start looking for jobs in the next few months. Will let u know if I make it happen
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Heist said:
Does this really make a lot of money? I know Psychiatrists who do this.
Click to expand...

I know the industry very well--like anything else, there's a lot of variation. In order to make "a lot" of money, you need to own the business. If you are interested you should ask your friends.

The average income of a non-equity-owning study physician for a PI for drug company is comparable (potentially slightly lower) to that of an average clinical psychiatrist--this is a chiller job. The upper limit can be quite high, as this is comparable to owning any number of multiple franchises with gross revenue of 1-2M per physician FTE. Per patient recruitment cost at the market is about 40-50k. You do the math here. It's very hard to recruit more than 100 patients per site per physician, in my mind.
 
dl2dp2 said:
I know the industry very well--like anything else, there's a lot of variation. In order to make "a lot" of money, you need to own the business. If you are interested you should ask your friends.

The average income of a non-equity-owning study physician for a PI for drug company is comparable (potentially slightly lower) to that of an average clinical psychiatrist--this is a chiller job. The upper limit can be quite high, as this is comparable to owning any number of multiple franchises with gross revenue of 1-2M per physician FTE. Per patient recruitment cost at the market is about 40-50k. You do the math here. It's very hard to recruit more than 100 patients per site per physician, in my mind.
Click to expand...
In private practice there are no friends
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

B
Didnt Match Psych
Replies
12
Views
2K
HbondsR_FON
HbondsR_FON
clement
ER Psych Fishing
Replies
44
Views
1K
Merovinge
Merovinge
B
Please help me with general psych rank list (child psych focused)
Replies
3
Views
729
neolandrover
neolandrover
G
Psych NP’s and PMHNP
Replies
12
Views
1K
dl2dp2
D
P
child psych boards qbank recommendation
Replies
3
Views
370
drdss2017
D
Top