Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner

[phinny]

I am a thirty year old licensed MSW currently working as a psychotherapist with adults with mental illness. I am very interested in furthering my education and working as a psychiatric nurse practitioner. I'm wondering how competitive an applicant I would be? I'm just starting the pre-reqs now but I have a 3.4 undergrad GPA (with As in bio) and a 3.9 graduate GPA. I still have to take the GRE. I'm looking to apply to Columbia (where I did my social work training), Yale, Hunter, the University of Washington and the University of Rochester (I'm still researching schools...).

Any thoughts or words of advice?

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[fab4fan]

Whatever you do, I'd suggest you not get into a discussion here with PSYCHNP. (No disrespect.)

 

[deleted6669]

you could also become a psych pa without having to be a nurse 1st.
same scope of practice and pay, more intensive clinicals, an understanding of general medicine as well as just psych, and more respect from the physician community which really is turning against np's ...oh, and you could do it in a yr less because you could skip the whole bsn thing...
SEE WWW.PSYCHPA.COM FOR THE PA PSYCH SOCIETY AND WWW.APPAP.ORG FOR A LINK TO OPTIONAL POSTGRAD PSYCH RESIDENCIES.

 

[AnnoyedByFreud]

you could also become a psych pa without having to be a nurse 1st.
same scope of practice and pay, more intensive clinicals, an understanding of general medicine as well as just psych, and more respect from the physician community which really is turning against np's ...oh, and you could do it in a yr less because you could skip the whole bsn thing...
SEE WWW.PSYCHPA.COM FOR THE PA PSYCH SOCIETY AND WWW.APPAP.ORG FOR A LINK TO OPTIONAL POSTGRAD PSYCH RESIDENCIES.

But are psych PAs licensed to practice therapy? I know for a psych NP the therapy training isn't great (and isn't likely to make up a lot of the work), but I'd like to have the option. Psych NPs are licensed to practice therapy, yes?

Sorry to jump in, I've just always wondered about that.

I also prefer the idea of spending the master's portion of my education primarily focusing on psych (as opposed to the more general PA education).

 

[deleted6669]

But are psych PAs licensed to practice therapy? I know for a psych NP the therapy training isn't great (and isn't likely to make up a lot of the work), but I'd like to have the option. Psych NPs are licensed to practice therapy, yes?

Sorry to jump in, I've just always wondered about that.

I also prefer the idea of spending the master's portion of my education primarily focusing on psych (as opposed to the more general PA education).

YUP, pa's are limited only by the scope of practice of the docs they work with. if trained to do therapy they can do it. also consider that a pa who does a single elective in psych in addition to the required psych rotation ends up with the same hrs as a psych np(around 500) but they also get fp, em, im, ob, and peds. all useful things...and a better general medical education covering all of pharmacology(not just psych meds) and a more solid basic science foundation...but in pa school you will miss out on all those classes on "nursing diagnosis" and "nursing research".

 

[PSYCHNP]

But are psych PAs licensed to practice therapy? I know for a psych NP the therapy training isn't great (and isn't likely to make up a lot of the work), but I'd like to have the option. Psych NPs are licensed to practice therapy, yes?

Sorry to jump in, I've just always wondered about that.

I also prefer the idea of spending the master's portion of my education primarily focusing on psych (as opposed to the more general PA education).

To the OP, your grades look great. I suggest to start looking for RN/BSN programs with your eyes on pysch NP programs (which are far less than adult/family np programs).

Yes PSCHNPs are qualified to deliver psychotherapy and the entire range of psych services comparable to a psychiatrist. I suggest to the OP that you read through all of Medium Rare's posts. He/she is a licensed psychologist and psychnp and seems to truly be an expert. I think by reading his posts your questions will be answered.

I believe that if you are a "psych" person at heart and reside in one of the states that NPs can practice independently the right choice is obvious.

I do like PA training as well so I do not want to discourage you from that route either. My only problem is that if you do not spend the necessary years developing your skills in, for instance, Family/ER practice you will not be proficient in these areas anyway. It is difficult to jump from psych to medical practice and vice versa.

Good luck.

 

[PSYCHNP]

YUP, pa's are limited only by the scope of practice of the docs they work with. if trained to do therapy they can do it. also consider that a pa who does a single elective in psych in addition to the required psych rotation ends up with the same hrs as a psych np(around 500) but they also get fp, em, im, ob, and peds. all useful things...and a better general medical education covering all of pharmacology(not just psych meds) and a more solid basic science foundation...but in pa school you will miss out on all those classes on "nursing diagnosis" and "nursing research".

The PSYCHNP would have taken a 3 credit class in let's say addictions, a separate 3 credit course in psychopharmacology, several classes in the dynamics of psychotherapy, family therapy etc.

You can't compare the generalist eductation of a PA to the psychnps in regards to psych.

Not to mention if the NP went on to get his or her DNP.

To the OP please do not underestimate the NP route it will take dedication from its onset (getting your RN license).

 

[deleted6669]

To the OP please do not underestimate the NP route it will take dedication from its onset (getting your RN license).

you can do a direct entry mental health np program in 3 yrs without any nursing background, just a prior bs in anything + the prereqs for nursing school. yr 1 you get the bsn, yr 3 the msn/mhnp.
There are many programs but here is one example:
http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/education/sc...ecialities/accelerated-bacc-masters/index.cfm

so in 3 yrs you could do this route or do a generalist pa program with an emphasis in psych followed by a 1 yr psych residency that goes way above and beyond anything a psych np program covers(thousands of clinical hrs instead of hundreds). some of these residencies take only pa's, some take pa's and family nurse practitioners.
fundamentally you need to decide if you want to learn bedside nursing to practice psychiatry or not. if you like the nursing model then psych np is a reasonable approach. if you have no desire to be a nurse and want a more scientifically grounded program with more clinical hrs consider pa.

 

[PSYCHNP]

you can do a direct entry mental health np program in 3 yrs without any nursing background, just a prior bs in anything + the prereqs for nursing school. yr 1 you get the bsn, yr 3 the msn/mhnp.

That sounds quite correct, but note that you must have a prior BS with prereqs. These are accelerated programs which means they are full time. There is also an accelerated program for foreign trained MDs. Notice that it is for MDs.

My point is that getting your RN in an accelerated program is not a shortcut. Any field of study in what we call "the medical field" takes time to comprehend and digest the new material.

Even aspects of a part time NP program when just taking 8 credits can be challenging.

I just like to be realistic with folks.

If all of this were easy everybody would be doing it and the degrees would have no value.

 

[AnnoyedByFreud]

YUP, pa's are limited only by the scope of practice of the docs they work with. if trained to do therapy they can do it. also consider that a pa who does a single elective in psych in addition to the required psych rotation ends up with the same hrs as a psych np(around 500) but they also get fp, em, im, ob, and peds. all useful things...and a better general medical education covering all of pharmacology(not just psych meds) and a more solid basic science foundation...but in pa school you will miss out on all those classes on "nursing diagnosis" and "nursing research".

I'm not talking just clinical hours (although I believe those are quite important and I think nurse practitioner programs should step it up in this area) - but the actual coursework. I want my education to be geared towards psych in particular and in depth. I'm not interested in the more general medical education.

I find it surprising that PAs can conduct therapy without having to get licensed approval or at least having to take some classes strictly on the subject. I understand a PA is practicing medicine, but I just don't get how they can ethically conduct therapy without some formal training.

Listen, I think PA is pretty much the way to go (if you're doing midlevel), but I do think there are some exceptions (psych being one of them).

Since I plan on doing psych and plan on practicing in the Pacific Northwest, I think I'll stick with the NP plan.

Thanks for the response.

eta: Do most psych PAs do a one year psych residency? Isn't that the exception, not the rule? I thought I read that the vast majority do not. I could be wrong, though, not sure.

 

[PSYCHNP]

I'm not talking just clinical hours (although I believe those are quite important and I think nurse practitioner programs should step it up in this area) - but the actual coursework. I want my education to be geared towards psych in particular and in depth. I'm not interested in the more general education.

I find it surprising that PAs can conduct therapy without having to get licensed approval or at least having to take some classes strictly on the subject. I understand a PA is practicing medicine (under the physician's license), but I just don't get how they can ethically conduct therapy without some formal training.

Listen, I think PA is pretty much the way to go (if you're doing midlevel), but I do think there are some exceptions (psych being one of them).

Since I plan on doing psych and plan on practicing in the Pacific Northwest, I think I'll stick with the NP plan.

Thanks for the response.

eta: Do most psych PAs do a one year psych residency? Isn't that the exception, not the rule? I thought I read that the vast majority do not. I could be wrong, though, not sure.

It seems as though you are already well versed about the psychiatric/behavioral/mental health field. With that being said EMED mentioned that you will be learning bedside nursing and nursing theory classes.

I have yet to see a PA direct a psychiatric/behavioral health facility/unit. The bedside nursing classes/leadership classes are necessary so that the OP can get a well rounded eduction to prepare him/herself for such roles.

 

[deleted6669]

I don't even know if PAs are taken seriously by mental health professionals like LCSWs and psychologists.

I don't know if mental health professionals like lcsw's and psychologists are taken seriously by psychiatrists....

 

[deleted6669]

eta: Do most psych PAs do a one year psych residency? Isn't that the exception, not the rule? I thought I read that the vast majority do not. I could be wrong, though, not sure.

there are only 2-3 psych pa residencies and they each only take a few/yr so these folks would be the exception for now. in time there will be more residencies for pa's in all specialties, including psych.
best of luck whatever you decide.

 

[NEU2014]

I don't even know if PAs are taken seriously by mental health professionals like LCSWs and psychologists.

I don't know if mental health professionals like lcsw's and psychologists are taken seriously by psychiatrists....

 

[phinny]

Thanks to everyone who offered advice. PA school isn't really an option for me as I am only applying to schools that do not require chemistry. I've been researching direct entry MSN programs and found these that offer a psych track and do not require chemistry:

Columbia
Yale
U Rochester
Vanderbilt
UCSF
Ohio State
VCU
U Vermont
UIC
U of Southern Maine

Any schools I should add to my list?

 

[fab4fan]

You could try posing your question at www.allnurses.com; they have a forum for advanced practice nursing.

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

Thanks to everyone who offered advice. PA school isn't really an option for me as I am only applying to schools that do not require chemistry. I've been researching direct entry MSN programs and found these that offer a psych track and do not require chemistry:

Columbia
Yale
U Rochester
Vanderbilt
UCSF
Ohio State
VCU
U Vermont
UIC
U of Southern Maine

Any schools I should add to my list?

I dunno, I have a little trouble with programs that are direct entry and don't require chemistry. If you are going to order psych meds, don't you think it would be a good idea to understand general chem, o-chem, and even biochem?

Oldiebutgoodie

 

[AnnoyedByFreud]

Thanks to everyone who offered advice. PA school isn't really an option for me as I am only applying to schools that do not require chemistry. I've been researching direct entry MSN programs and found these that offer a psych track and do not require chemistry:

Columbia
Yale
U Rochester
Vanderbilt
UCSF
Ohio State
VCU
U Vermont
UIC
U of Southern Maine

Any schools I should add to my list?

What's wrong with chemistry? Are you worried about the math? It isn't bad at all, especially since you only need the non-science majors version for virtually all nursing schools that require chem.

I personally think it's ridiculous that some programs don't require it and I'm glad to see that more and more seem to be doing so. I'm not saying it should be necessary to take the entire series and then the orgo series. But two quarters introducing the basic concepts of chemistry and biochemistry seem like a basic requirement to me (and a bare minimum, frankly).

eta: oldiebutgoodie beat me to it

 

[phinny]

What's wrong with chemistry? Are you worried about the math? It isn't bad at all, especially since you only need the non-science majors version for virtually all nursing schools that require chem.

I personally think it's ridiculous that some programs don't require it and I'm glad to see that more and more seem to be doing so. I'm not saying it should be necessary to take the entire series and then the orgo series. But two quarters introducing the basic concepts of chemistry and biochemistry seem like a basic requirement to me (and a bare minimum, frankly).

eta: oldiebutgoodie beat me to it

Regarding chemistry, it's a fair point. I have a lot to consider. Thanks for posting.

 

[PSYCHNP]

Regarding chemistry, it's a fair point. I have a lot to consider. Thanks for posting.

Recheck your admissions requirements. I never heard of an RN program which didn't require some form of chemistry.

 

[PharmBound2011]

Recheck your admissions requirements. I never heard of an RN program which didn't require some form of chemistry.

I just checked the first few. These direct-entry MSN NP programs don't require even basic General Chemistry let alone orgo or biochem.

So, there is a possibility of a Psych NP who hasn't taken a basic chem class prescribing psychotropics?? something should be done about that. ASAP.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

I just checked the first few. These direct-entry MSN NP programs don't require even basic General Chemistry let alone orgo or biochem.

So, there is a possibility of a Psych NP who hasn't taken a basic chem class prescribing psychotropics?? something should be done about that. ASAP.

But...dude...they're equal to board-certified physicians and deserve equal reimbursements!

/sarcasm

 

[PSYCHNP]

I just checked the first few. These direct-entry MSN NP programs don't require even basic General Chemistry let alone orgo or biochem.

So, there is a possibility of a Psych NP who hasn't taken a basic chem class prescribing psychotropics?? something should be done about that. ASAP.

I guess in much the same way as foreign medical schools accept students without the MCAT and all of the usual pre-med courses (i.e. physics I & II etc.).

I also believe that I read in some earlier posts that a med school applicant majoring in, let's say art, with a high GPA with the basic pre-reqs would stand a better chance of getting into med school than an engineer with a lower GPA.

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

What's wrong with chemistry? Are you worried about the math? It isn't bad at all, especially since you only need the non-science majors version for virtually all nursing schools that require chem.

I personally think it's ridiculous that some programs don't require it and I'm glad to see that more and more seem to be doing so. I'm not saying it should be necessary to take the entire series and then the orgo series. But two quarters introducing the basic concepts of chemistry and biochemistry seem like a basic requirement to me (and a bare minimum, frankly).

eta: oldiebutgoodie beat me to it

I am also concerned when RN or NP wannabes are worried about the math. Holy smokes! If you can't do simple med math (and it SHOULD be simple to you), then you have no business in nursing or NP programs. You could f***ing kill somebody.

 

[AnnoyedByFreud]

I am also concerned when RN or NP wannabes are worried about the math. Holy smokes! If you can't do simple med math (and it SHOULD be simple to you), then you have no business in nursing or NP programs. You could f***ing kill somebody.

Seriously, seriously, agree.

It's like the people I know who are freaking out about nursing prereqs like anatomy/physiology or microbiology... umm if you can't do well in those classes then you might start considering other careers.

 

[Dwindlin]

I guess in much the same way as foreign medical schools accept students without the MCAT and all of the usual pre-med courses (i.e. physics I & II etc.).

I also believe that I read in some earlier posts that a med school applicant majoring in, let's say art, with a high GPA with the basic pre-reqs would stand a better chance of getting into med school than an engineer with a lower GPA.

This argument gets thrown around by a lot of people and it is crap...

Med schools require the same pre-requisits no matter what major you pick. So guess what, that art history major still had to take Chem I/II and lab, Orgo I/II and lab, Phys I/II and lab, and a year of upper level biology based classes (genetics, molecular, etc).

Only advantage you get from doing a science based major is it may make 1st year a little easier.

 

[zenman]

I am also concerned when RN or NP wannabes are worried about the math. Holy smokes! If you can't do simple med math (and it SHOULD be simple to you), then you have no business in nursing or NP programs. You could f***ing kill somebody.

About the only math I have to contend with is figuring out how much to prescribe for a month. If I prescribe hydroxyzine 25 mg one to two BID PRN, I need uh, let's see...2 x 30 = 60 and oh wait, if they take a total of 4 a day, that will make it 4 x 30 = 120. Yea, that's it. Oh wait, what if it's a long month?

 

[Dazed&Confused86]

I'm so tired of people making those comments about what a person should or should not be doing! There are plenty of individuals who have graduated from college who had dyslexia, and so fourth. and I am SURE their are doctors who had learning disabilities and somehow finished their program. I've had the same concern about math and I spoke to several nurses and they told me not to worry about it, its not that much math as everyone thinks...and wannabes?? really, I swear these forums are filled with the most miserable, bitter and discouraging people, instead of judging provide the information necessary for an individual to make an informed decision on their own.