Psychiatry Abroad

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lol you could volunteer with MSF if you have humanitarian streak else, you could go to Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc - you could live anywhere and do telepsychiatry or even collaborative care to the US. what languages do you speak?
 
What other countries welcome U.S. trained psychiatrists? And which are the best? Wish it wasn't so, but I've been feeling like leaving the country for years. Looks like a good time to go.

I can't speak for what it's like to work in mental health care in Australia, but here's some general information for overseas trained Psychiatrists from RANZCP (Royal Australian & New Zealand College of Psychiatrists). 🙂

https://www.ranzcp.org/Quick-links/Overseas-Specialists.aspx
 
lol you could volunteer with MSF if you have humanitarian streak else, you could go to Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc - you could live anywhere and do telepsychiatry or even collaborative care to the US. what languages do you speak?

Don't you have to be physically located in the United States to bill Medicaid/Medicare? Not insurmountable for people doing private pay or for large institutions that are not operating on a traditional insurance basis, but makes this option way more difficult.

Australia, Canada and Singapore are the countries I have researched the most. Oz and America's Hat both are quite welcoming to board-certified American psychiatrists, with the option to work in major urban areas (geography is more of a constraint for immigration schemes in other specialties).

Singapore is a tad confusing, but the legal guidance i have on this to date is that you can practice there if a) you graduated from one of a set list of American medical schools or b) you are board-certified. They definitely are actively trying to recruit English-speaking psychiatrists and they are doing interesting things in community mental health (government agencies tend to work quite well in S'pore).

I would love to hear if anyone has had experience working as a psychiatrist in any of these places. Perhaps @lymphocyte can share some experiences of Australia?
 
My husband and I have been interested in moving to Australia for about 6 or 7 years now, but the research I have done for both NZ and Australia seem to indicate that there is a 10-year probation period. Does anyone else know about this? Also, can US med graduates just apply for residency in Australia -- doesn't seem to be an option from my research.

http://www.medicalboard.gov.au/Registration/International-Medical-Graduates.aspx

Thanks for the info on Singapore [emoji106]


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lol you could volunteer with MSF if you have humanitarian streak else, you could go to Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc - you could live anywhere and do telepsychiatry or even collaborative care to the US. what languages do you speak?

I speak Spanish ... any thoughts?


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What other countries welcome U.S. trained psychiatrists? And which are the best? Wish it wasn't so, but I've been feeling like leaving the country for years. Looks like a good time to go.

Like SMGraff I could brush up on Spanish. Looking hard at Canada, but they require 5 years of residency for equivalency from what little I've read, so I'd have to suck it up and do a fellowship.
 
Don't you have to be physically located in the United States to bill Medicaid/Medicare? Not insurmountable for people doing private pay or for large institutions that are not operating on a traditional insurance basis, but makes this option way more difficult.

Australia, Canada and Singapore are the countries I have researched the most. Oz and America's Hat both are quite welcoming to board-certified American psychiatrists, with the option to work in major urban areas (geography is more of a constraint for immigration schemes in other specialties).

Singapore is a tad confusing, but the legal guidance i have on this to date is that you can practice there if a) you graduated from one of a set list of American medical schools or b) you are board-certified. They definitely are actively trying to recruit English-speaking psychiatrists and they are doing interesting things in community mental health (government agencies tend to work quite well in S'pore).

I would love to hear if anyone has had experience working as a psychiatrist in any of these places. Perhaps @lymphocyte can share some experiences of Australia?


How come Telepsychiatry companies are advertising that "you can be anywhere around the world". I would think they bill primary Medicaid. How are they able to go around this rule for mds needing to be physically present in USA. Anyone had any experience working with Telepsychiatry companies while living abroad?
 
How come Telepsychiatry companies are advertising that "you can be anywhere around the world". I would think they bill primary Medicaid. How are they able to go around this rule for mds needing to be physically present in USA. Anyone had any experience working with Telepsychiatry companies while living abroad?

You have to be licensed where the patient is, not where you are.
 
You have to be licensed where the patient is, not where you are.


Can I be abroad practicing Telepsychiatry? Sure, I would have to be licensed for states where pts are physically located. Confusing for me is this regulation that drs need to be in USA if billing Medicaid/Medicare? That would exclude seeing those pts through Telepsychiatry right? How are Telepsychiatry agencies managing this. Thanks
 
My husband and I have been interested in moving to Australia for about 6 or 7 years now, but the research I have done for both NZ and Australia seem to indicate that there is a 10-year probation period. Does anyone else know about this? Also, can US med graduates just apply for residency in Australia -- doesn't seem to be an option from my research.

http://www.medicalboard.gov.au/Registration/International-Medical-Graduates.aspx

Thanks for the info on Singapore
emoji106.png



Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Re Australia, you could try phoning or emailing RANZCP for more info. We need more Psychiatrists here, I'm sure you'd be welcomed. 🙂

Tel. +61 (0)3 9640 0646
Fax +61 (0)3 9642 5652
[email protected]
 
My husband and I have been interested in moving to Australia for about 6 or 7 years now, but the research I have done for both NZ and Australia seem to indicate that there is a 10-year probation period. Does anyone else know about this? Also, can US med graduates just apply for residency in Australia -- doesn't seem to be an option from my research.

More info on the 10 year moratorium period, I'm not a healthcare professional so I can't explain this in any detail. Also not sure how this applies to a specialist qualification like Psychiatry (that's where phoning or emailing RANZCP would come in handy).

http://www.doctorconnect.gov.au/internet/otd/publishing.nsf/Content/section19AB

Plus information from the Australian Embassy in the US on residency in Australia.

http://usa.embassy.gov.au/whwh/Visas_and_Migration.html
 
Don't you have to be physically located in the United States to bill Medicaid/Medicare? Not insurmountable for people doing private pay or for large institutions that are not operating on a traditional insurance basis, but makes this option way more difficult.

Australia, Canada and Singapore are the countries I have researched the most. Oz and America's Hat both are quite welcoming to board-certified American psychiatrists, with the option to work in major urban areas (geography is more of a constraint for immigration schemes in other specialties).

Singapore is a tad confusing, but the legal guidance i have on this to date is that you can practice there if a) you graduated from one of a set list of American medical schools or b) you are board-certified. They definitely are actively trying to recruit English-speaking psychiatrists and they are doing interesting things in community mental health (government agencies tend to work quite well in S'pore).

I would love to hear if anyone has had experience working as a psychiatrist in any of these places. Perhaps @lymphocyte can share some experiences of Australia?

There are two separate issues. The first is attaining fellowship (equivalent to board certification), and the second is billing Medicare, which is the national health insurance scheme. Attaining fellowship is generally not difficult for an American-trained psychiatrist, but all foreign doctors are subject to a 10-year moratorium on claiming medicare reimbursements in major urban areas, though it's a little surprising what's considered "urban." Just like the US, "what it's like" depends on what exactly you want to do, outpatient, inpatient, community, payer mix, sub-specialty, etc.
 
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There are two separate issues. The first is attaining fellowship (equivalent to board certification), and the second is billing Medicare, which is the national health insurance scheme. Attaining fellowship is generally not difficult for an American-trained psychiatrist, but all foreign doctors are subject to a 10-year moratorium on claiming medicare reimbursements in major urban areas, though it's a little surprising what's considered "urban." However, you always have the option to bill privately.

Just like everywhere, there's a dearth of psychiatrists, especially in rural areas. Just like the US, "what it's like" depends on what exactly you want to do, outpatient, inpatient, community, payer mix, sub-specialty, etc.

Where I live now we have a lot of overseas Doctors working in different practices, because although strictly speaking we are an urban area we're also considered to be an underserved area as well so we come under the 'working in an area of need' exemption thingy for IMGs. Yes I explained that brilliantly, I know. LOL
 
My husband and I have been interested in moving to Australia for about 6 or 7 years now, but the research I have done for both NZ and Australia seem to indicate that there is a 10-year probation period. Does anyone else know about this? Also, can US med graduates just apply for residency in Australia -- doesn't seem to be an option from my research.

For all intents and purposes, you can't apply for specialty training in Australia or NZ as a USMG. There are hardly enough spots for domestic graduates, and the law says that domestic graduates come first. At the same time, psychiatry training is 5-6 years and includes an additional tertiary qualification like a masters of psychiatry, which might make it less appealing. Your best bet is to train in the US and then migrate on a 187 or 189 visa. A 187 visa requires the sponsorship or a rural or regional partner, like a district hospital, whereas a 189 visa is an invitation into the country as an unrestricted permanent resident (like having a Green Card). Both visas put you on the path to citizenship.

Your first port of call should be the rural doctor's association in whatever state you'd like to settle. They are an incredible resource, not just for migrating, but for finding locums positions to test the water. It's the kind of agency that will call the immigration office to expedite paperwork. Every state has one. Here is the one for NSW: http://www.nswrdn.com.au/
 
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Where I live now we have a lot of overseas Doctors working in different practices, because although strictly speaking we are an urban area we're also considered to be an underserved area as well so we come under the 'working in an area of need' exemption thingy for IMGs. Yes I explained that brilliantly, I know. LOL

"District of Workforce Shortage" and "Area of Need" are two terms that are confusingly used interchangeably but not the same. An AoN is one specific position designated by the Ministry of Health that needs filling regardless of where it's located. It's only granted for a fixed period of time, usually 3 years, not long enough for citizenship. To my knowledge, a AoN position does not apply toward the 10 year moratorium.

A DoWS on the other hand is a geographic area that's established to have a doctor shortage. All the time spent in a DoWS counts against the 10 year moratorium, and some areas even count for time and a half or double. Here's a map: http://www.doctorconnect.gov.au/internet/otd/publishing.nsf/Content/locator. Notice the vast majority of Australia, including major cities like Adelaide, are identified as having shortages. (I am using the word "major" loosely, of course. 😛)
 
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"District of Workforce Shortage" and "Area of Need" are two terms that are confusingly used interchangeably but not the same. An AoN is one specific position designated by the Ministry of Health that needs filling regardless of where it's located. It's only granted for a fixed period of time, usually 3 years, not long enough for citizenship. To my knowledge, a AoN position does not apply toward the 10 year moratorium.

A DoWS on the other hand is a geographic area that's established to have a doctor shortage. All time spent in a DoWS counts against the 10 year moratorium, and some areas even count for time and a half or double. Here's a map: http://www.doctorconnect.gov.au/internet/otd/publishing.nsf/Content/locator. Notice the vast majority of Australia, including major cities like Adelaide, are identified as having shortages. (I am using the word "major" loosely, of course. 😛)

Looking at that map there are definitely DoWS areas around where I live, some areas are better served than others of course.
 
I work in Australia doing a mix of private outpatient and private inpatient work.

When I was training, a number of doctors at my service were originally trained in psychiatry in South Africa, the UK or India. I believe they had come in under skilled migrant visas, and allowed to be employed as senior registrars or staff specialists in the public sector. However, to qualify for FRANZCP all of them had to sit the ECE (Exemption Candidate Exam), which is essentially the same examinations that local trainees sit, supposedly assessed at a higher standard for the clinical parts.

Once fellowship has been achieved, the 10 year moratorium comes into play. This means that Doctors who have a basic medical qualification from outside Australia can only bill Medicare (and thus work privately) if they work in a “District of Workforce Shortage” (DWS) for 10 years. Time worked in a DWS (and prior public Australian hospital postings) counts against the 10 years, and not all DWS are valued the same: working in some DWS areas may count for double depending on how rural it is, effectively shortening the 10 year period. Overseas trained doctors can still work in public hospital positions (many of which remain unfilled) or locum jobs. Pay for the latter is usually at least $2000 per day and includes accommodation/transport costs, but are generally short term, placements lasting from a few weeks to a few months. Public positions for qualified psychiatrists are salaried, and start from $100/hour depending on seniority, but also include sick leave, 4-5 weeks paid annual leave and other perks to make up for the lower rate. Some DWS are surprisingly close to urban centres, and DWS also includes things like after hours or overtime positions in urban areas. I am aware of a few colleagues under the moratorium who do a 5 – 9pm weekday session or Saturday morning. I am also aware of one colleague who successfully applied for an exemption, but this only applies under rare circumstances.

As hourly rates go, payment in the private system is substantially higher ($300+, and in some cases up to $800/hour), but may not be as consistent as it is strictly fee for service and depends on the type of work. It’s hard to explain this in detail without examples but I’ll leave that for another post if people are interested. One thing I will say, is that from reading this forum, I gather that a lot of US psychiatrists have headaches processing claims and dealing with insurance companies. In Australia you don’t have to deal with them as they aren’t permitted to fund outpatient services, so you can just get on with treating patients rather spending time justifying reimbursement.

From a practical perspective, one of the differences in Australian health care is that all patient access to the private specialist system is referral based. Patients must obtain a referral from their GP, and most psychiatrists will read the referral first before deciding to accept it or not which gives us a lot of flexibility and control. Don’t want to see Adult ADHD, Borderlines or Drug problems? No problem. Or do you only want to see Adult ADHD? Also possible. Obviously a lot depends on the quality of the referral, but in the last year I’ve only accepted one that turned out to be completely inappropriate (referral said schizophrenia, patient had antisocial PD/drug seeking behaviour, quite a frightening forensic history and was already being managed in a public community clinic). It’s also an interesting time because a lot of the older psychiatrists are in the process of retiring, and their patients still need ongoing care. While my general preference is to start from scratch, inheriting patients who are already largely sorted out but just need regular review isn’t bad work either.
 
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I work in Australia doing a mix of private outpatient and private inpatient work.

When I was training, a number of doctors at my service were originally trained in psychiatry in South Africa, the UK or India. I believe they had come in under skilled migrant visas, and allowed to be employed as senior registrars or staff specialists in the public sector. However, to qualify for FRANZCP all of them had to sit the ECE (Exemption Candidate Exam), which is essentially the same examinations that local trainees sit, supposedly assessed at a higher standard for the clinical parts.

Once fellowship has been achieved, the 10 year moratorium comes into play. This means that Doctors who have a basic medical qualification from outside Australia can only bill Medicare (and thus work privately) if they work in a “District of Workforce Shortage” (DWS) for 10 years. Time worked in a DWS (and prior public Australian hospital postings) counts against the 10 years, and not all DWS are valued the same: working in some DWS areas may count for double depending on how rural it is, effectively shortening the 10 year period. Overseas trained doctors can still work in public hospital positions (many of which remain unfilled) or locum jobs. Pay for the latter is usually at least $2000 per day and includes accommodation/transport costs, but are generally short term, placements lasting from a few weeks to a few months. Public positions for qualified psychiatrists are salaried, and start from $120/hour depending on seniority, but also include sick leave, 4-5 weeks paid annual leave and other perks to make up for the lower rate. Some DWS are surprisingly close to urban centres, and DWS also includes things like after hours or overtime positions in urban areas. I am aware of a few colleagues under the moratorium who do a 5 – 9pm weekday session or Saturday morning. I am also aware of one colleague who successfully applied for an exemption, but this only applies under rare circumstances.

As hourly rates go, payment in the private system is substantially higher ($300+, and in some cases up to $800/hour), but may not be as consistent as it is strictly fee for service and depends on the type of work. It’s hard to explain this in detail without examples but I’ll leave that for another post if people are interested. One thing I will say, is that from reading this forum, I gather that a lot of US psychiatrists have headaches processing claims and dealing with insurance companies. In Australia you don’t have to deal with them as they aren’t permitted to fund outpatient services, so you can just get on with treating patients rather spending time justifying reimbursement.

From a practical perspective, one of the differences in Australian health care is that all patient access to the private specialist system is referral based. Patients must obtain a referral from their GP, and most psychiatrists will read the referral first before deciding to accept it or not which gives us a lot of flexibility and control. Don’t want to see Adult ADHD, Borderlines or Drug problems? No problem. Or do you only want to see Adult ADHD? Also possible. Obviously a lot depends on the quality of the referral, but in the last year I’ve only accepted one that turned out to be completely inappropriate (referral said schizophrenia, patient had antisocial PD/drug seeking behaviour, quite a frightening forensic history and was already being managed in a public community clinic). It’s also an interesting time because a lot of the older psychiatrists are in the process of retiring, and their patients still need ongoing care. While my general preference is to start from scratch, inheriting patients who are already largely sorted out but just need regular review isn’t bad work either.

Great stuff, this is the kind of thing I am interested in finding out more about. If you do feel up to another post detailing pay rates as you mentioned, I for one would lap it up.
 
Also you weren't kidding about the closeness of DWS to some urban centres; unless I am reading the specialist DWS map wrong for psychiatry (from DoctorConnect), there are chunks of Melbourne and Sydney that qualify as DWS.
 
Also you weren't kidding about the closeness of DWS to some urban centres; unless I am reading the specialist DWS map wrong for psychiatry (from DoctorConnect), there are chunks of Melbourne and Sydney that qualify as DWS.

There are a lot of lower socio-economic areas that are consider to have workforce shortages, especially with Psychiatry. The general area I live in is actually one of the better served of these types of areas, and it still qualifies as DWS. We're only about 35 minutes out from the CBD as well.
 
Great stuff, this is the kind of thing I am interested in finding out more about. If you do feel up to another post detailing pay rates as you mentioned, I for one would lap it up.

Heh, careful what you wish for...

Outpatient Billing
Private outpatient psychiatry in Australia is Fee-for-Service, and there are a large range of Item Numbers attached to psychiatric services (291-352). However, in practice there’s only a few that would be used regularly: 296 is an initial assessment for at least 45 minutes, and numbers 300-308 are for time based outpatient reviews. The equivalent for an inpatient is 297 and numbers 320-328. 348-352 are codes for seeing someone other than the patient for collateral/diagnostic clarification.

For outpatient practice, I’ll use a standard half hour review (item “304”) as an example. How I decide to bill for that item number determines my reimbursement.

From Item 304 | Medicare Benefits Schedule, there’s a lot of different dollar figures which don’t mean too much to the casual observer.

Fee: $133.10 Benefit: 75% = $99.85 85% = $113.15


The “Fee” referred to above what is called the Schedule Fee, or the amount that the Medicare, our national insurer, thinks is a fair price for the service offered. For non-GP specialist services Medicare will pay only 85% of the Scheduled Fee: this is the Bulk Billed rebate. The difference that a patient pays is what is referred to as the “Gap.”

Scenario 1 - Bulk Billing
If I elect to Bulk Bill a patient for a 304, Medicare pays me $113.15. More accurately, the patient assigns their rebate to me. The overall result is that the patient pays nothing (which they generally like).

Scenario 2 - Schedule Fee
If I charge the Schedule Fee, the patient pays me $133.10 and gets back $113.15 from Medicare, leaving them with a $20 out of pocket gap.

Scenario 3 - Private Billing/AMA Rates
Now the Schedule Fee hasn’t kept up with inflation for ages, so most psychiatrists charge a higher amount than the schedule fee. So if decide to charge the AMA rate (which is the doctor’s union fee updated annually to keep pace with inflation), the patient pays me $250, and gets back $113.15 from Medicare leaving them with a $137 gap.

Scenario 4 - Third Party
For third party payers, approved Workers Compensation and Veterans Affairs patients pay a higher rate usually between the Schedule Fee and the private AMA rate, and in some cases more –eg. the WorkCover rate for a 291 assessment is higher than the AMA rate. Not everyone accepts WorkCover patients, as there can be additional paperwork especially if a hospital admission is needed.

There are a couple of other things that can influence the hourly rate.

Item 291 Assessments
An Item 291 is a one-off assessment designed to allow increased access to a psychiatrist. These have to be specifically requested by the referring GP, and are supposed to be for patients that can be managed in primary care setting with minimal specialist involvement, although they are often used to get patients who could not otherwise afford specialist care seen.

The Medicare rebate for this is $384, which I believe is the highest amount paid for any kind of consultation. Aside from the higher rebate (a regular initial assessment 296 is $220), these assessments are any different from one’s standard initial assessment, but there are administrative limitations and requirements. To be eligible for a 291 a patient can’t have seen a psychiatrist in the last 2 years, a report to the referrer must be provided within 2 weeks, and a rating scale must be used among other things. When these were first introduced, there was a bit of rorting and inappropriate claiming going on resulting in Medicare audits.

The AMA fee for a 291 is around $700, which you would think is out of reach for most patients. Most psychiatrists charge well below this figure, say around the $400-500 mark, but there are some patients who will agree to pay the higher rate. Recently I did one of these for a new WorkCover patient, and found that they paid $750 which was a nice surprise.

IME Assessments
The only thing that I can think of that pays higher, is the fee for an Independent Medical Examination. Eg. a patient gets injured/bullied at work, they develop depression and claim Worker’s Compensation. Before the insurer will approve it they send them to an “IME” to determine if the problems are actually work related. The only requirement to being an IME is to do a short course, and pay an annual fee to go on the register. There’s a perception that those who only do this kind of work are “guns for hire,” likely working on the assumption that if one accepts too many claims they may not be favoured in getting work from the insurance companies who are footing the bill. The going rate for this kind of work is something like $880/hr (800 + 10% GST), but the trade off is that they seem to be universally despised by patients.

Outpatient Hourly Rates
In working out an hourly rate, I should also mention that Medicare pays proportionally more for shorter consults, and while most of the psychiatrists at my clinic would see 30 minute reviews, if someone wanted to run a pure therapy practice or churn through 4 med reviews an hour that would also be possible. The ranges given below are BB to the AMA rate, assuming no cancellations.

1 x 60 minute consult: $156 – 370/hr
2 x 30 minute consults: $226 – 500/hr
4 x 15 minute consults: $294 – 720/hr

Therefore, one’s hourly rate in private outpatients can theoretically range from $156 (a bulk billed long consult – Item 306) to $880 (IME). Most privately billing general adult psychiatrists would charge around $350-400 for an initial 60 minute intake, and $150-250 for a review. You could probably get more if you did Child Psychiatry. There was an Australian doctor who was arrested in Canada for doing very unsavoury things in public toilets: the media dug around and found he charged $750-$990 for a 90 minute intake (500-660/hr), and $395-$445 for reviews, but I have no idea if this is the norm for them.

Even after taking into account costs like room rental, empty slots and cancellations, one can still earn well above $1000 per half day session in a mixed billing practice. In contrast, a colleague who works a day a week at the local university clinic and bulk bills all the patients struggles to clear $1000 for that day.

Inpatient Billing
Private inpatient work operates slightly differently from the descriptions I read here, as you generally only look after your own outpatients. Again, it’s Fee-for-Service, and can be done alongside outpatient work or ignored completely if one chooses. If I decide a patients needs to come into hospital, then I arrange the admission either under myself, but if I didn’t want to I could contact another doctor who has admitting rights. Another form of inpatient work is providing second or third opinions for other colleagues - sometimes this is clinically warranted for particularly tricky patients or when considering contentious or potentially risky treatment options like MAOis. It's also something nice about psychiatry compared to other specialities who are more worried about colleagues "stealing" their patients.

Unlike outpatient work, the Medicare rebate paid for consultations is 75% of the Schedule Fee. The patient’s private health insurance (PHI) pays an additional amount that usually takes the total over the schedule fee as an incentive to not charge an additional gap.

For an Item 324 (the inpatient equivalent of a 304), this additional amount can take the total to anywhere from $150-180 depending on the patient’s insurance. While this is less than the private outpatient fee, the advantage is that it’s more consistent work. If want to, I can see my inpatients every day and bill accordingly: if I have a couple of inpatients and round each evening, that’s potentially another $2000-2500 per week which can offset any quiet clinic days. Some psychiatrists will even see their inpatients twice a day, before their clinic and afterwards.

The disadvantage is that you are on call for the duration of their stay in hospital, but the good news is that you don’t get called very often if you have sorted out your patients, and there are no overheads as when we admit the hospital makes good money. The cost of staying in hospital is about $800 a day, which the insurance covers. For those without PHI, the patients has to to pay the hospital fee a week in advance (> $5000) or half that amount if they have partial cover. The disadvantage for admitting doctors is that under those two scenarios, the insurance does not top up their payments, and they only receive the lower 75% rebate (worse than Bulk Billing) - found this out the hard way.
 
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In contrast, a colleague who works a day a week at the local university clinic and bulk bills all the patients struggles to clear $1000 for that day.

Hmm, you don't happen to work in SA by any chance? :thinking: (you've just described the exact set up at the clinic I attend)
 
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