Psychiatry and psychological tests

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The question I don't see being addressed is, why, as a psychiatrist, would you want to do these tests yourself when you could spend your valuable time seeing more patients or doing things only you are allowed to do?

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The question I don't see being addressed is, why, as a psychiatrist, would you want to do these tests yourself when you could spend your valuable time seeing more patients or doing things only you are allowed to do?

Because, from what many of us see, and this is no secret, forensic psychiatry's Achilles heel for many years has been its continued reliance on conclusions based on "judgment" alone. Actuarial methods, as Meehl notes, outdo pure clinician judgment every time. That was like, uh, 60 years ago now too.

The biggest reason clinical neuropsychology moved to the forefront in the assessment of malingering/feigning/exaggeration, etc. was largely due to embracing actuarial methods and advancing that science enormously within the past 20 years. If you look back into the 70s and before, this was primarily psychiatry's territory. But that ship sailed long ago, and it aint ever comin back. Nevertheless, I am sure most would welcome a renewed focus on this if proper training and extensive supervsion was provided within fellowship programs. I think it would be valuable. There is nothing to be gained by having your cousin not really understand the method behind your madness, ya know?
 
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I was mostly just curious from an intellectual standpoint.

From a practical standpoint, I have absolutely no interest in doing this sort of evaluation and actually I find it somewhat questionable ethically for physicians to even be involved in some aspects of forensics. (Obviously the vast majority of psychiatrists would disagree with me.) The idea of evaluating a person outside of a therapeutic patient-doctor relationship for the benefit of the state is kind of distasteful to me from a philosophical standpoint and I think its better done by non-physicians.
 
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IThe idea of evaluating a person outside of a therapeutic patient-doctor relationship for the benefit of the state is kind of distasteful to me from a philosophical standpoint and I think its better done by non-physicians.

Well, if one goes in with that mindset, of course its unethical.
 
Well, if one goes in with that mindset, of course its unethical.

Isn't the whole concept of forensic evaluation unbiased evaluation for the benefit (use) of the court (state)?

It certainly is not a doctor-patient relationship and I find it ethically questionable to evaluate someone outside of a doctor-patient relationship.
 
Isn't the whole concept of forensic evaluation unbiased evaluation for the benefit (use) of the court (state)?

It certainly is not a doctor-patient relationship and I find it ethically questionable to evaluate someone outside of a doctor-patient relationship.
Even if you are not a forensic psychiatrist, as a clinician, you are usually going to make legal and ethical decisions that weigh the benefits of the state (i.e., the community) verses the benefits for your individual patient. See Tarasoff and involuntary commitment proceedings.
 
Even if you are not a forensic psychiatrist, as a clinician, you are usually going to make legal and ethical decisions that weigh the benefits of the state (i.e., the community) verses the benefits for your individual patient. See Tarasoff and involuntary commitment proceedings.

Obviously, but those patients are our patients and we have a doctor-patient relationship. I have zero ethical qualms with a Tarasoff warning or involuntary commitment.
 
For the state. You added the term benefit.
 
For the state. You added the term benefit.

Huh? "For the benefit of the court " is a common phrase in relation to expert testimony of any type.

I was just substituting in "state" as the court is an agent of the state (ie. government, not like a specific state).
 
Obviously, but those patients are our patients and we have a doctor-patient relationship. I have zero ethical qualms with a Tarasoff warning or involuntary commitment.

i think we are getting too side tracked.

this is for the benefit of someone/something other than the patient. but, it also benefits the patient, no?
 
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Obviously, but those patients are our patients and we have a doctor-patient relationship. I have zero ethical qualms with a Tarasoff warning or involuntary commitment.
I don't know about zero ethical qualms. What about a patient who is in chronic pain and wants to end their life? Or has just experienced so much childhood trauma which lead to adult victimization and multiple psychiatric disorders, failed medication cocktail trials, and hospitalizations and prays for a way for it to end? Or in a nursing home and lost all worldly goods and most loved ones and ability to do things they use to enjoy? Or court-mandated or parent-mandated treatment with unwilling patients? Just a few of the ethical dilemmas one might face on a regular basis.
 
this is for the benefit of someone/something other than the patient. but, it also benefits the patient, no?

Yes, it does also benefit the patient.

My problem is that in a forensic evaluation you don't have a patient, you have an evaluee(?) (not sure the legal term here). Your primary responsibility in this interaction is to the court (state), I personally don't believe that is necessarily appropriate for me as a physician. I know most disagree with me and appreciate that I have what would be considered a fringe minority opinion in this regard.

I personally feel I should not use the skills/techniques I have developed in the practice of medicine outside of the context of a patient-physician relationship. Especially because no matter how much you educate the evaluee, I think its hard to truly overcome the cultural understanding of what a interaction with a physician is and what expectations come along with that. I would much rather have a separate profession function in this capacity.
 
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The question I don't see being addressed is, why, as a psychiatrist, would you want to do these tests yourself when you could spend your valuable time seeing more patients or doing things only you are allowed to do?

As a non-forensic psychiatrist, I don't want to perform these tests, but I do want the right to perform them. It especially irritates me that the copyright holder of the MMPI does not allow psychiatrists to perform the MMPI (rather than being limited by a licensing board, professional society, board, etc). It would be kind of like Pfizer saying that only doctors, not nurse practitioners, could prescribe zoloft.
 
As a non-forensic psychiatrist, I don't want to perform these tests, but I do want the right to perform them. It especially irritates me that the copyright holder of the MMPI does not allow psychiatrists to perform the MMPI (rather than being limited by a licensing board, professional society, board, etc). It would be kind of like Pfizer saying that only doctors, not nurse practitioners, could prescribe zoloft.

And, from what I have know about the issue, Starke Hathaway would not be happy that his baby was solely in the hands of profession, who, as he was known to say, didnt spend enough time with "real psychiatric patients" anyway...

That said, the MMPI is extremely complex, (I myself have not got up to speed on the RF and RC scales) and I've never heard of residencies or fellowship programs providing anything more than an overview. So, I can understand wanting to restrict its use as much as possible.
 
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Nancy, what you are talking about does not just apply to psychometrics. EBM has been taking this on for years. Appendicitis is also a construct. There is no this is definitely appendicitis at this degree of inflamtion, but not at this degreee. In your example, at what value of is WBC going to considered elevated? What temp is elevated? How inflamed is the appendix? 5%? 10%? 20%? What are the PP/NP/kappa for those values?

EBM has been taking this on for years in other areas, as well. In 2013, the ACC/AHA guidelines lowered the threshold for the diagnosis of hypercholestremia and statin use. Does this mean the construct of elevated choelsterol is BS?

Finally, what about fibromyalgia? You know, the disorder that a doctor convinced was real and got other doctors to diagnose people with it?

Fair enough - but there's a spectrum of physical proof to things. Hematologists over the years have examined the blood and determined that there's a normal range for WBCs. "Inflammation" may be more nebulous but you can still look at a cell from the appendix and show that it is abnormal (for example, if it has ruptured or invaded by bacteria). You cannot do that with a brain cell that I know of, and if you can, the condition will be called "neurological" not "psychological." Psychometric testing wouldn't be needed most likely in that case.

Some people don't believe in fibromyalgia at all. I would lump it in with a lot of things in medicine that you could question whether they are real or not. What about chronic lyme disease? My point is not that non-psychiatric medical conditions are all concrete physical concepts, but rather that anything that is measured "psychometrically" relates in some way to the "psyche" and I personally know of very few, if any, physically verifiable measurements that pertain to the human psyche. (Although having a brain would be one obvious one. I would be quite confident in saying "No diagnosis on Axis I" to someone who was born without a brain. I would not doubt the validity of this non-diagnosis. But again, with such physical proof, why would I resort to psychometric testing?)

A simpler example to show my point might be a complete fracture of the femur. No one uses "psychometric testing" to evaluate femur fractures. They don't need to because a human being can see with their eyes, and with an x-ray if needed, when a femur is broken. I'm sure there are questionable cases. But you can draw a picture of a femur that is intact, and one that is broken, and most reasonable people would agree these are different physical states. I don't feel the same amount of doubt as to whether femur fractures are "valid constructs" as I do about, say fibromyalgia, or for that matter, "panic disorder with agoraphobia."

Dementia might be one case where psychometric testing can be correlated to physically measurable qualities. I'm just saying, it is part of the definition of "psychological" that things tend to be "mental constructs" as opposed to physically measurable phenomenon, and mental contracts by their very nature lead a person to not always trust that they are real.
 
i get your point but none of the personality disorders have dropped out of the DSM nor have the criteria changed

Really? I must confess I haven't looked at this since the debate was raging about which ones to keep. Are you saying they kept avoidant, dependent, schizoid and paranoid?

In any case it is a great relief to know that my attendings were right!
 
lol…I was waiting for that. :D

I'm glad that someone is asking questions about the considerations for forensic assessment, as I've seen too many hacks (from multiple disciplines) try and do it all without having a fraction of the training. I think completing a formal fellowship in forensic assessment would be the bare minimum level of training (at least in my opinion) for a psychiatrist, as long as that fellowship included a large portion of supervision and mentorship because the true challenges in the work are in the interpretation…not the administration and scoring.

Are there no state or board regulations indicating what professionals can utilize what tests and which ones are outside of their scope?
 
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