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If you are doing these, definitely be prepared to testify somewhat regularly, and respond to board complaints.
PsyD Advice?
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If you are doing these, definitely be prepared to testify somewhat regularly, and respond to board complaints.
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I want to chime in as well! OP, I want to validate what you're saying and asking about. One thing you said stood out to me, and that's that you're worried you might not get into a PhD the first time you apply. Very fair concern, and I also want to demystify/destigmatize not getting in your first round of applications. I applied twice and the first time I applied, I didn't get a single interview. So I spent the year boosting my GRE scores (now optional), getting more clinical AND research experience, and improving my written materials. I was successful my second year of applications and am at an equal emphasis (clinical and research) PhD program. PsyDs are great and, like everyone else said, can be super expensive.
To address your other question about your qualifications, obviously your application would include more materials like letters of rec, writing samples, etc. that all get reviewed holistically. It sounds like you have great experiences, but don't forget the value of "the package" too. In my personal experience, I had scarce research experience (i.e., publications, posters, presentations) but similar to you, I wasn't looking to be in a PhD program where research activity is huge. You might wanna do a google search for R1 (very research heavy) and R2 (research heavy but less so than R1) schools so see if R2 PhD programs would fit your interests in clinical work. PhD vs. PsyD is ultimately up to you! Either option will shape you into the professional you want to be if you pursue something that feels like the best fit.
To address your other question about your qualifications, obviously your application would include more materials like letters of rec, writing samples, etc. that all get reviewed holistically. It sounds like you have great experiences, but don't forget the value of "the package" too. In my personal experience, I had scarce research experience (i.e., publications, posters, presentations) but similar to you, I wasn't looking to be in a PhD program where research activity is huge. You might wanna do a google search for R1 (very research heavy) and R2 (research heavy but less so than R1) schools so see if R2 PhD programs would fit your interests in clinical work. PhD vs. PsyD is ultimately up to you! Either option will shape you into the professional you want to be if you pursue something that feels like the best fit.
That's fine! I mostly just want to be sure that there are opportunities out there for me to do those sorts of things as a forensic psychologist
Thank you for the thoughtful response! PsyD debt is definitely a concern but I ultimately want to find the program that is the best fit for me, whether it be a PsyD or PhD. I hadn't realized that there were PhD programs that were not as research heavy, I guess that was a false assumption on my part. I think I'll plan on applying to 3-4 PsyD programs that I like and look into/apply to some R2 PhD programs as well. Thanks 🙂
Plus I know it's not the end of the world if I don't get in first cycle. I do have 1.5 years experience as an RA, but no publications or conferences unfortunately. If I were to get into a single program the first cycle of applying, should I just accept? Or is it better to reapply and have more offers?
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Not sure if you know about this resource but it's incredible and SO helpful. It even has a 1-7 scale for each program in terms of how research- vs. clinically-oriented it is: Amazon product ASIN 1462548474It was such a good text for me to use when I was searching and I've since passed it down to another person who was looking at programs.
As for your question about accepting one offer, I think that really comes down to if you could truly see yourself there. I wouldn't accept an offer if I had a feeling that I'd be unhappy or if it felt like the wrong fit. Plus, you'll get a good vibe of programs during the interview process. Don't accept an offer if you felt the vibes didn't fit your personality. Think of this as a job; would you accept a job offer even if you didn't like it? If it didn't pay enough for you to afford bills? If it met any other undesirable criteria? Not getting in your first round of applications is NOT a sign of your value or skillset. It definitely stings but it'll give you a great chance to reassess. Now if you get a single offer and love the program, then sure take it. Why not? Again, it's your decision and you have to think about how this program/ these program fit YOUR needs!
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You will 10000% be on stand for child custody evaluations. In fact, you will be contracted by lawyers with the explicit purpose of doing so, which is true of any civil involvement. This is generally a private practice venture.
All of those things you reference are attainable. The thing is what fits /you/ more than what is possible.
Got it, thank you for your help! I'll keep all this in mind. I'm probably also feeling iffy about testifying because I've obviously never done it, I'm sure I would get more comfortable with experience. All in all, I do love forensics, so anything I do in that field will probably be in line with my interests.
Yes, I just purchased that book! And true, also I'm sure I wouldn't apply to programs I couldn't see myself at in the first place. But interviews would definitely be something to keep in mind. I'm sure a lot of programs look great on the internet, but it's different when actually talking to students and faculty. Thank you for all your help! If you have any other tips/info it would be greatly appreciated!
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Hi OP! I went to one of the schools you listed in one of your posts and specialize in forensics. If you want to chat further, please feel free to DM me.
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To add to Justanothergrad's response, a traditional fellowship in forensic psych may or may not prepare you for child custody evals specifically. They're definitely something you'd want to get specific training and experience with, which may take looking into the "fine print" of various programs to see if that's an option. Forensic psychology, speaking at its most broad, is the application of psychology to forensic matters and contexts. So as you can guess, that covers a lot of ground. I certainly know of folks who work in various areas of forensics (e.g., perform child custody evals and competency to stand trial evals while also perhaps providing some therapy to a correctional population), but they sought out training in each of those different areas, with some of that training being post-graduation.
But good on you for trying to think about and narrow down these different interests and career paths now.
That's where I'm struggling lol, too many different forensic things I could see myself doing. I've mostly just been looking at the faculty of schools I'm planning to apply to and seeing if they have research interests that I would also be interested in. For the most part, I mainly want to provide therapy in a correctional setting.
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After going through the fellowship process and ultimately getting boarded, I think there are maybe two fellowship programs that offer child custody exposure (I think William James and Hackensack). Even then, it is such a specialty area. I greatly admire the folks who have dedicated their careers to doing that work. More power to 'em!
OP, it sounds like you are set on providing therapy to justice-involved individuals. It might be worth broadening your interests to include PI's with interests in severe and persistent mental illness, substance use, or problem solving courts. While I came from a University-based PsyD program, had some funding and was able to find some success, I always recommend that students really make an attempt to get accepted to a funded PhD program, even if takes an extra year or two.
The programs you listed are a bit of a mixed bag. I would get rid of Midwestern and Nova. I've been much less impressed with the quality of recent Nova grads. Denver is good but can be ridiculously expensive. I know they have some merit based awards that will cover the majority of tuition, but I imagine those are awarded to 1-2 of the 40 students admitted each year. Baylor and Rutgers are definitely the best of the bunch, but if you get accepted there, I'd imagine you'd have a good shot at PhD programs, too. The research requirements wouldn't be all that much difference from a balanced PhD program either. And, always remember...Never Alliant and never Argosy 🙂
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This is no longer an issue moving forward.
Sounds like a lot of my interests are extreme specialty areas...yikes. I think if there's a way I can work in a prison or facility with people who have severe mental illness (like you said) and/or have committed violent crimes, that would be what I mostly want to do. Like ASPD is of great interest to me! Or any of the personality disorders really. If there's some way to work with kids in any capacity, I think that would also be super cool, I just don't know how it would be forensic. I guess that would dive more into the realm of juvenile offenders, except I don't know if I could work with teenagers. 😳 Are there psychologists who work with kids of people who are in prison? Or even work with kids who have been perpetrated against (would be difficult but I would love to be able to help them)? Also, if a person specializes in forensics or does their internship/post doc in a forensic setting, are you limited to only providing services to forensic populations?
As for programs here's my updated list:
Florida Tech PsyD
Baylor PsyD
Rutgers PsyD
Georgia Southern PsyD
Marshall University PsyD
Florida International University PhD
University of South Florida PhD
I'm 100% open to any suggestions! Not many PhDs because I just haven't had time to do too much research on them. Also would prefer to live somewhere warm hahaha
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I'll certainly defer to folks with more experience, but for the bolded portion, I imagine you're then going to want to look for programs that have access to those specific types of facilities (i.e., a forensic facility specifically for pre- and post-adjudication individuals with purported mental illness, as this population is typically housed separately from the general population). If you're working with those folks, unless things have changed since I was in grad school and did a bit of this type of training, a lot of your work is going to be performing competency to stand trial evaluations (and, relatedly, essentially trying to determine the legitimacy of a person's claimed mental illness), determining if a person can be restored to competency once they've been deemed incompetent to stand trial, and developing behavior plans for patients in the facility. I honestly don't know how much focus or time there is on psychotherapy provision; much of it may be in groups. Although in my experience, many of the groups were run by non-psychologists such as chaplains, OT or Recreational Therapists, etc.
As for the programs themselves, I unfortunately don't have much insight to offer there. But you may need to look at programs in or near rural areas; there's a lot of NIMBY when it comes to forensic facilities, and they also typically require a lot of space.
Got it, I definitely am interested in competency evals! And as for the schools, I know both Marshall and Georgia Southern are in pretty rural areas but I'll have to do more research.
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These are really broad interests, which likely can be fleshed out in a large number of programs. Psychotherapy in prisons, for instance, is mostly commonly provided by a person with a master's degree.
simplywaiting
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Speaking only about Georgia Southern because it's on your list- I went to Georgia Southern. It is a funded PsyD program that has exactly the same requirements as the PhD program at University of Georgia. As others have pointed out, PsyD doesn't necessary equal less emphasis on research so don't feel you need to limit your search. Based on your CV highlights, you have good amount of experience to get in. A lot of people in the program didn't have prior presentations/publications. Additionally, they have a forensic practicum opportunity that I completed- it's in an inpatient hospital, involved monthly mental health court dates, and I mostly did competency evals/risk assessments.
Generally speaking, Psy.D. programs will put less emphasis on research experience, but presentations and publications never hurt. Certainly, your GPA is fine, but depending on the competitiveness of the program, you’re going to need to find a way to set yourself apart. Volunteering at the suicide prevention hotline (or other clinically focused experiences) would demonstrate your interest in the field and could potentially get you a solid letter of recommendation. Crisis intervention is a skill you’ll need irrespective of the setting you work, so my suggestion is, if you want to apply to a clinically focused program, you might want to accrue explicit clinical experiences. Working in a clinical psychology lab that directly investigates a research area you’re interested in could be helpful as well. As was already mentioned, research is a critical component of any reputable Psy.D. program, so it wouldn’t hurt to have a finely-tuned areas of interests to discuss in your application.
Lastly, A LOT of people will try to talk you out of getting a Psy.D., and with good reason (costs, less ‘prestige’). That said, I have many friends working at major prisons, with some matching for internship at the best placements for forensic psychology. Do what feels right for you and tune out the rest.
Lastly, A LOT of people will try to talk you out of getting a Psy.D., and with good reason (costs, less ‘prestige’). That said, I have many friends working at major prisons, with some matching for internship at the best placements for forensic psychology. Do what feels right for you and tune out the rest.
I think overall though, a doctorate would be better and will give me a wider range of what I can do job wise in the forensic field.
That's super helpful to know! Did you like the program? When I emailed, they said they didn't have opportunities for forensics currently, although they have in the past. So now I'm debating. I've also been looking more into R2 PhD programs.
Thank you! I also have worked directly with a number of clients in animal therapy, including those with disabilities, genetic disorders, TBIs, mental illness, etc. Plus I have experience tutoring inmates in a federal prison. Not sure if those would count as clinical? I do have a year and a half as an RA in a research lab studying aggression, sexuality, and substance use as well!
And, yes, as for PsyDs, I've gotten sooooo many comments just saying to go to a PhD program (mostly on here, all my professors and friends in PhD and PsyD programs both have told me to go for a PsyD). Obviously cost is a bit of a concern but if the program is at a less expensive school and/or offers some sort of funding, I'm sure I'll be able to work it out. I agree that a lot of those with PsyDs are still great psychologists. So I appreciate you saying that 🙂
Sanman
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I don't think anyone here is trying to tell you that all PsyDs are less than...several of us have PsyDs. However, there is nothing wrong with a balanced PhD either. At the end of the day, cost is the biggest issue. This field simply does not guarantee pay that is high enough to take on loans many PsyD programs require and enjoy your life afterward (buy a house, decent car, etc). Certainly there are suspect PsyD programs, but I don't think anyone is looking down at a Baylor grad or similar and saying they cannot be a good psychologist.
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A doctorate will invariably give you more career opportunities, but I’d spend some time considering whether that makes it worth it. What is the likelihood that you will want to pursued those doctorate-only options? Does that likelihood justify the more than 2x long training and additional requirements (eg thesis, dissertation) of a doctorate? The framing I used for myself and have suggested to others is to only pursue the doctorate if it is necessary for your career goals and you can’t imagine doing anything else. I recognize that’s probably overkill for being happy and successful in a doctoral program, but I’ve also seen many people discount the opportunity costs and stress associated with pursuing the degree and ultimately regret it. Only you know what’s right for yourself and I wish you luck with whatever you decide!
Yes I know that and I know that the issue is cost. Fortunately I'm in a situation where cost is not too big of an issue, and I know there are jobs who offer loan forgiveness as well. Plus I'm never planning on having kids which will hopefully save me a lot of money 😂 I'm planning to look at and apply to both, just based on what individuals programs I like! Not planning to apply to the more expensive PsyD programs either.
Yes, definitely something to think about. I know that I definitely want to do assessments and work in a federal prison, both of which require a doctorate for the most part. And I do enjoy school, so even if I go for the doctorate and end up doing master's level work in some aspects of my job, I think it will have been worth it because there's a number of different things I want to do career wise and it will have been worth my time to open myself up to those options.
Sanman
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Do your own calculations. However, I would not count on the bolded to save you. Both of those things may change at any time.
simplywaiting
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I did like the program! The faculty is really great and supportive. That's unfortunate, perhaps they got rid of that practicum site. I know my old forensics supervisor left her position so maybe that's why.
Very true, always going to keep finances in mind!
I'm glad to hear! The lady I spoke with said they might have a forensic site in the future, so I'm not sure if I would risk going in hopes that they would have it when I'm there. But I'll definitely keep it in mind, heard it's a good program!
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Indiana State University is also funded and has a forensic/corrections-focused lab/mentor.
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I think I know a few folks who went to Indiana State (unless I'm confusing it with another school); none were forensic, but they were excellent clinicians.
Yes! I've looked into there a little but I just can't see myself living in Indiana 😅
Sanman
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Hey, program is funded (looks like it cost $2300/yr) and cost of living in Indiana is cheap. May or may not be a great place to live, but $100-200k+ is a lot money. That is how I did it and I think it was worth it long term.
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seems like some of the confusion here is that there is a big difference between forensic psychology and correctional psychology or working as a generalist psychologist within a prison/jail setting. You absolutely do not need forensic expertise and training to do therapy in a correctional setting, nor would you be called as an expert witness in that type of role. And for my 2 cents, I went to a balanced, funded phd program knowing I didn't want to be a career researcher. No corrections/forensics faculty members, got corrections experience and was competitive for at least some correctional and forensic oriented internships. Though for forensics that stuff helps more. Couldn't be happier that I don't have the debt load of my psyd peers. Solid training program first, doors will open after.
Very true! I think I could suffer in Indiana for 5 ish years and then live wherever tbh
Yes! I didn't realize this until talking to a professor! So I guess it doesn't matter then if I do a program with forensic specialty or not. I would rather go broad anyways and be able to provide therapy/conduct assessments with more populations than just those in correctional facilities too. I would rather not be in too specific of a program where I feel trapped and unable to do other things. Might I ask what PhD program you attended?
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100% agree that you don’t want to pigeonholes yourself by a program that is marketing a certain track. Psychologist training is generalist first, then specialize later. I changed my anticipated area of specialization every year depending on which practicum placement I did. Mainly because I love everything about psychology so much that whatever I was doing was so cool i could see myself continuing with it. Loved neuro at a medical center, loved VA placement, and loved working outpatient with teens and then inpatient with teens. Then state hospital was my internship and I really thought that could be the path, then community mental health as post doc, maybe that’s what I’ll do. Now 12 years later I am still figuring out what kind of psychologist I am going to be when I grow up. 😉
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This! "Tracks" within grad programs are typically for marketing purposes. Respectable programs do not (and do not have to) engage in marketing, as they typically have many more applicants than available slots. Some less than reputable programs try to capitalize on the society trend of shows and books glamorizing a largely fictional portrayal of "forensic psychology" by offering these "forensic tracks". Not surprisingly, a lot of these places with specific "tracks" also have dedicated "admissions counselors", which also aren't a thing in most reputable programs.
Coursework in graduate school is largely foundational, rather than geared towards preparing you for a specific future career. Any specialization is related to your work with your mentor, your own research, and practicum. Taking a course or two in "forensic psychology" does not really make you more qualified for anything.
I think it is also important to note that there are many careers in psychology that applicants (and current students and, for that matter, professors!) don't know much, if anything, about. While I'm now doing more traditional psych assessment now, I have previously directed clinical programming for private special education schools, overseen operations (a management position) of a home-based service agency, supervised clinical services in an adult residential program (largely ID/DD population), and consulted to schools and nursing homes. None of these were related to any "track," but rather to getting good foundational skills from overall graduate program, research and consultation experience directly from my mentor, and practicum, pre-, and post-doctoral internship experiences. I'm guessing most of
That's actually very refreshing to hear! This whole time I've been so dead set on forensics, but when I really think about it, I could be happy do anything in psychology. And I would rather be in a program that allows me to try different things than be stuck on the track.
This actually makes me feel a lot better haha. Definitely gives me more of a range of programs that I could apply to rather than just focusing on specific tracks! Thank you or sharing 🙂 I think when looking at schools I'm just going to focus more on broad programs to get the foundational skills plus look at the faculty who's research interests I am interested in. I feel like I'll be happy doing anything in psychology, plus I won't know until I actually start doing it. Who knows, forensics might not even be for me!
Sanman
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In defense of tracks, it really depends on what it means for the program. While I agree that extra coursework does not mean that much, it helps if they have established practica for that you are allowed to rotate through. I was in "neuropsychology track" in my program, but that mostly meant being given preference for the neuropsych placements and sitting in on the intern/post-doc didactics in our neuropsych clinic my final year in the program as part of my practica. So, it really depends on what the individual program means by track. I do agree that the tracks at the for profits that you are discussing are a completely different animal and not worth it.
I will say, the University of Denver's PsyD program is really plummeting. I do NOT recommend applying as I foresee them losing their APA accreditation. Baylor and Rutgers are the only somewhat funded programs, which are your best bets. Georgia Southern is only worth it if you don't mind living in the middle of nowhere and serving rural communities. I did interview a few students who go there and they like it a lot and there is a good bit of funding as there's a small cohort.
I'm currently waitlisted for a PsyD program and am reconsidering the amount of debt I will potentially get into. Wishing you the best of luck!
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What's going on with University of Denver?
Makes sense, thanks for sharing! I now realize you don't need a specialized forensic track to be a forensic psychologist. Sure, would I find my classes more interesting and applicable to what I want to do? Yes, but I would rather just get the generalized degree first and be able to serve a number of populations, then specialize later.
Yes I've crossed Denver off my list, it's also suuuuuper expensive lol. Georgia Southern I have heard many good things about, and I wouldn't mind being in the middle of nowhere since the winters are warm! As of right now, the PsyDs I think I will definitely be applying to are Rutgers, Baylor, Georgia Southern, Marshall, and Florida Tech. Definitely gonna be looking into PhD programs more because of the whole debt issue!! Good luck to you as well! 🙂
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I would strongly encourage you to consider funded PhD programs and take another year or two to get into a funded program. In an unfunded one, you will end up with a minimum of 100k in debt...and you will carry the consequences of that for at least a decade if not more. It's not a decision you can take back.
I too, did not love research. I had 2 years of research experience after undergrad and applied only to funded PhD programs. I was accepted into one. I am now on internship and have never published anything. I've done several poster presentations and have worked on a manuscript for publication but didn't publish. My program was balanced a bit more towards the research side but the clinical training was still excellent. I did the relative minimum in terms of research activity and instead focused on clinical work and teaching. When I did do research, it was decent because of the training I received.
I intend to pursue a fully clinical career...but gosh am I glad of the research training I received. It helps me evaluate which treatments to recommend, how to explain rationale for interventions to clients, how to determine what assessment tool to use for a client where I need more information. It's made me a much better teacher, a better scientist, and definitely helped me appreciate at a deeper level what we are trying to do here in our field of psychology (with all of its flaws included).
AND I get to do all that with zero debt. This means when I start my cushy private practice job in the future, I will be taking home all of the $ without having to worry about loans (once the government gets its 30% of course!). Just another perspective to consider.
I too, did not love research. I had 2 years of research experience after undergrad and applied only to funded PhD programs. I was accepted into one. I am now on internship and have never published anything. I've done several poster presentations and have worked on a manuscript for publication but didn't publish. My program was balanced a bit more towards the research side but the clinical training was still excellent. I did the relative minimum in terms of research activity and instead focused on clinical work and teaching. When I did do research, it was decent because of the training I received.
I intend to pursue a fully clinical career...but gosh am I glad of the research training I received. It helps me evaluate which treatments to recommend, how to explain rationale for interventions to clients, how to determine what assessment tool to use for a client where I need more information. It's made me a much better teacher, a better scientist, and definitely helped me appreciate at a deeper level what we are trying to do here in our field of psychology (with all of its flaws included).
AND I get to do all that with zero debt. This means when I start my cushy private practice job in the future, I will be taking home all of the $ without having to worry about loans (once the government gets its 30% of course!). Just another perspective to consider.
Yes! I have switched to only applying to mostly funded PsyD programs (Rutgers, Baylor, Georgia Southern) and fully funded PhDs!
