PsyD (Mass School Prof Psych) or MSW (Simmons or BU)

[waterslide]

I have my MBA and am now planning to go back to graduate school again for psychology (my undergrad and some early work experience was in psych). I know that I want to do private practice, maybe some group therapy work, and possibly teach in the future. I am having the HARDEST time choosing b/w a PsyD and an MSW. I am only looking at schools in Boston and am essentially choosing between Massachusetts School of Professional Psychology (MSPP) for a PsyD, and maybe possibly Antioch in NH, but it's a 2 hr drive, OR for MSW: Simmons School of Social Work, Boston University SSW, or Boston College SSW.

I would greatly appreciate any info on these programs and the difference in degrees. So, I understand that I can do many of the same things with either degree, except the MSW costs a lot less and takes less time. Having already paid off graduate debt once, I am not super excited to incur a ton again. However, I do respect credentials and am willing to do what it takes, and "Dr." does have a certain ring to it, if a PsyD makes the most sense. A friend told me that it will take just as long to get licensed as an MSW as it would to finish the PsyD program b/c you have to gain hours for the MSW after graduation, so he suggested the PsyD b/c there are more options for other work if I want to stop private practice. And, he said I can earn more with a PsyD in general and definitely in private practice. He said there are more job postings for MSW's, but they are lower paid. Since I would like to have a private practice anyway, I'm not sure that it matters. I also hear that the type of clinician you are really comes from who you are as a person rather than the school you go to which would suggest that an MSW would make more sense. I am so confused!! Please let me know what you think. Thanks!

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[deleted176373]

Given the cost benefit ratio, I would think that there is a strong case to go for your MSW, especially in the case of an unfunded professional program vs a relatively inexpensive MSW program.

I do think that there is a huge difference in education but I am unsure that I could make the case to suffer the high cost and low payback that the Psy.D. program offers in a professional school setting.

According to salary.com in my neck of the woods (DC Metro), a LCSW makes 53k per year and the salary for "psychologist" is 81k per year. We'll assume that a Psy.D. post internship is capable of pulling that number and so is the LCSW. As a Psy.D. you will likely need to spend an additional 2 years in school and you will likely be in debt to the tune of 75k more than an LCSW at a state school (or even some private schools.)

That's a significant opportunity cost. $181k which will be paid back from the Psy.D. at the rate of 30k per year. So 8 years post graduation, you'll have broken even. That's assuming all things being equal and not taking any interest payments into account on the school debt.

I am not saying not to do it, but that the road is not paved with gold just by being Dr. Waterslide, Psy.D. If after that quick analysis, you still have the desire to get your Psy.D. then by all means follow your dream. You will, likely, incur a mountain of debt going to a Psy.D. program at a professional school.

Mark

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I usually tell people that if they just want to do therapy, an MSW is probably the best bang for the buck. You can still do quasi-gov't jobs AND do therapy, and not be in school for a number more years.

-t

 

[docma]

I think the MSW is actually a more versatile degree in these times and the practical/economic way to go if direct services/practice are your goal. It is a useful degree combined with an MBA as well. And have you considered the Smith College School of Social Work? They have an excellent program and you do the academic course work in the summer term (over 3 summers), with direct practice internships during the year (so that could be in Boston or elsewhere). It is a well-established, well-regarded program. And then if you really want to be "doctor" you can go on for a Ph.D in social work when ready...

 

[PsiKo]

I think the MSW is actually a more versatile degree in these times and the practical/economic way to go if direct services/practice are your goal. It is a useful degree combined with an MBA as well. ...

What do you see as the utility of an MBA combined with an MSW? Where/How do you market that?

 

[JR in SB]

What do you see as the utility of an MBA combined with an MSW? Where/How do you market that?

The OP talked about wanting to go into private practice. Running a practice is just like running any other business.

 

[PsiKo]

The OP talked about wanting to go into private practice. Running a practice is just like running any other business.

Earning an MBA to manage a one-person PRIVATE practice is like driving in a thumb tack with a sledge hammer. Managing a mental health clinic (or clinics) is another story.

 

[JR in SB]

Earning an MBA to manage a one-person PRIVATE practice is like driving in a thumb tack with a sledge hammer. Managing a mental health clinic (or clinics) is another story.

Point is, the OP already has an MBA. This is much different that earning an MBA just to run a practice. He certainly will be able to use his business skills in going into any type of practice. Especially if he choses to go into the management of an entire clinic, as you spoke about. The MBA will certainly help him make more lucrative business moves, especially when there is so much whining about how no money can be made in clinical psych.

 

[docma]

I just meant that MSW plus MBA would have a broad range appeal for an agency or clinic that wants someone with clinical smarts plus admin/management skills

 

[waterslide]

Thanks for the input thus far. 🙂

Does anyone have an argument in favor of going for the PsyD?

Am I unrealistic to expect to be able to go into private practice? What kind of limitations might there be to get this up and running?

And, what type of salary can be expected from private practice? As MSW and PsyD?

 

[feedme]

waterslide, i talked to someone who graduated from mspp, and he graduated in 4 years! i was surprised. he opted not to take the internship year because he was going to practice in boston anyway where mspp is well known. however, mspp is QUITE expensive albeit respected in that area from what i've read on these boards.

 

[Flutterbyu]

I am a student at MSPP. I know at least 4 people who went through the Master's program at BC and then still opted for the PsyD. Also, I would say 60-70% of the students in my class have some kind of graduate work, mostly Master's in psych, counseling, SW, etc.

People go for the shorter route for all the reasons previously mentioned but when it comes down to it, they just aren't satisfied. You can definitely get through MSPP in 4 years (w/o APA internship but with enough internship hours for licensure). You will have amazing field placement opportunities- I have had 2 years in a Harvard-affiliated training hospital and this is the norm rather than the exception. As far as professional schools, MSPP is small and the faculty is top notch- most are also faculty at major Boston schools (Harvard, Tufts, BU, BC, etc). Finally, the school is now offering 2 year programs as well- you might want to check into them as it would be easier to roll credits into a PsyD if you wanted.

You know, with your MBA you might be interested in the Executive Coaching program MSPP has as well. Let me know if you have more specific questions. I am almost done with school and I have had a great experience with MSPP. I know many alumnae and they are all happy, working, and able to pay off debt.

 

[JR in SB]

I am a student at MSPP. I know at least 4 people who went through the Master's program at BC and then still opted for the PsyD. Also, I would say 60-70% of the students in my class have some kind of graduate work, mostly Master's in psych, counseling, SW, etc.

People go for the shorter route for all the reasons previously mentioned but when it comes down to it, they just aren't satisfied. You can definitely get through MSPP in 4 years (w/o APA internship but with enough internship hours for licensure). You will have amazing field placement opportunities- I have had 2 years in a Harvard-affiliated training hospital and this is the norm rather than the exception. As far as professional schools, MSPP is small and the faculty is top notch- most are also faculty at major Boston schools (Harvard, Tufts, BU, BC, etc). Finally, the school is now offering 2 year programs as well- you might want to check into them as it would be easier to roll credits into a PsyD if you wanted.

You know, with your MBA you might be interested in the Executive Coaching program MSPP has as well. Let me know if you have more specific questions. I am almost done with school and I have had a great experience with MSPP. I know many alumnae and they are all happy, working, and able to pay off debt.

This was a very helpful post!🙂

 

[waterslide]

Hi Flutterbyu,
Thank you SO much for your response! It is so great to get some insider info on one of the programs I am considering. I do have a couple questions:

Would you please clarify *why* those who took the shorter 2 year route of masters degree were unsatisfied and then went on to get a PsyD?

Also, do you happen to have any insight into how realistic is it to go into private practice after a PsyD? Thank you very much.

 

[Flutterbyu]

I can only speculate as to why one would feel unsatisfied. From what I can gather, after completing 2 years of course work, I think some people just feel there are gaps in their education. For example, the 2 year route would not include an emphasis on assessment, which MSPP provides in the PsyD program. Also there is the realization of systems (and system politics) and I think many people feel that entering into any system with a doctorate allows for a more prominent position and more autonomy. That speaks to hospitals and organizations, of course, but the doctorate also comes with a certain expectation of leadership that I would think is lacking in a 2 year program.

Many of the students I know who have Master's degrees in related fields have expressed wanting a more rigorous and thorough course of study as well. Some people are simply not happy with the quality of work they can do with 2 years worth of classes. The PsyD allows for more in-depth study, especially if you find that you are interested in a specialty area. The faculty at MSPP are quite diverse in their interests so many students opt for independent study courses in which we can really start to cultivate a specialty area.

As far as the 2 year programs at MSPP, I will say this, and please take this with a grain of salt, as I am now truly just stating observations. There is a definite division in the caliber of students in the 2-year vs. PsyD program. I only say this because I have had the opportunity to speak to some of the Counseling Psych students and from what I can tell, the major difference is that although it is a professional school, the PsyD program attracts really great candidates. My class has graduates from Harvard, BU, BC, Tufts, NYU, etc. The academic work we do is comparable to PhD programs in the area and I can say this with certainty, as I have held internships with students in local PhD programs. The 2-year students have a different frame of mind- they are interested in a short program that will get them working quick. It is just a different mind set.

As far as private practice is concerned, many MSPP grads choose this option. I don't know the logistics, but I do know there are many resources within the program to guide you through the process, including a required course that specifically speaks to operating a practice. Many faculty work in group practices as an adjunct to university work and the networking we are exposed to is extensive. The only limitation would be finances and many recent grads take on a small portion of their work as assessment cases in order to afford the more traditional therapy work.

There are so many possibilities and MSPP really works with you to get where you want to go. The people are great and I would do it all over again if I had the choice. Good luck with your decision and let me know if there are any more questions!

 

[waterslide]

Thanks again Flutterbyu! Great insights. 🙂

 

[TMS@1987]

Does the MSW really limit your job possibilities? I'm asking because I'm considering going into an MSW and I don't want to do it if it will limit me career-wise. I don't want to spend the rest of my life serving under people and not being given a change to lead because of my degree. I like the MSW, but I don't want to go for it if its just gonna screw me in the long run.

 

[wdd]

Does the MSW really limit your job possibilities? I'm asking because I'm considering going into an MSW and I don't want to do it if it will limit me career-wise. I don't want to spend the rest of my life serving under people and not being given a change to lead because of my degree. I like the MSW, but I don't want to go for it if its just gonna screw me in the long run.

I get the impression that the MSW isn't terribly limiting if your ultimate goal is to perform therapy. I'm no expert, but I can at least provide one example: I have a relative who's making a pretty fine living as cofounder of a psychotherapy practice that focuses on a very specific population--almost everyone there, himself included, is an MSW (LICSW, LCSW, etc.).

That's just one example, of course (well, several, since there are a number of therapists there), but it serves to illustrate something by which a lot of the posters on this board abide: specify, and you'll open doors, no matter what.

 

[Flutterbyu]

You can have a thriving private practice as an MSW, but you have to go into the degree program knowing what you are bargaining for. At the point in my doctoral training that I was considered "Master's equivalent," I sure did not feel ready to be out there practicing. Forget the 4th year, in which MSPP focuses on becoming a supervisor and writing the dissertation, but in the 3rd year alone my coursework changed the way I work clinically and think theoretically. Social work is a completely different model- if SW is what you want, then get an MSW. If you want to be a leader within the MSW community, not sure what to tell you. The social workers that I know that are in leadership positions (not private practice) have gotten a PhD in SW.

I think the bottom line is- there is no short cut to becoming a skilled, knowledgeable clinician. If you prefer the MSW model, then by all means you should go for it, but if you are already doubting whether you will be satisfied then I would take some time to figure out where you really want to be in 10 years.

 

[Flutterbyu]

I want to add one more thing- I am writing from the PsyD model perspective and not the PhD model. My program offers 3 full years of clinical course work and then an additional year of supervisory study/diss writing. In addition we are in the field from day one. Comparing the MSW to the PhD is trickier because of the research emphasis. Honestly, I believe in the PsyD model and philosophy for producing superior clinicians more so than the PhD model, which is obviously a model designed to produce a more research based scientist. I don't want this to be an argument for which doctoral degree is better, but I thought it best to emphasize that I am arguing for more class time spent developing a clinical identity- which I think is lacking in MSW/LMHC programs.

 

[michalita]

If you are in the Boston area and are considering MSW programs, I would urge you to take a look at the Salem State College program as well -- especially if you are concerned about paying down debt.

Good luck with your decision!

- Current MSW I at SSC

 

[brit18246]

What is someone with a BS in psych and MSW looking at for a salary? and what about a BS in psych and a Psy.D degree salary?!

 

[KillerDiller]

What is someone with a BS in psych and MSW looking at for a salary? and what about a BS in psych and a Psy.D degree salary?!

You can't really compare salaries for a BS and graduate level degrees because you can't do the same things with a BS that you can do with the other degrees. Namely, you can't see patients, do assessments, or run a research lab when you only have a BS or BA. A bachelor's in psych gives you a foundation in the field, but it doesn't prepare you for a career in psychology beyond being a research assistant or case manager...both of which pay between 20 and 30K a year.

 

[WannaBeDrMe]

What is someone with a BS in psych and MSW looking at for a salary? and what about a BS in psych and a Psy.D degree salary?!

As previously stated, BS vs grad is no comparison. Secondly, it will vary by region and by type of position.

Speaking only for my state based on independent private practice, a PsyD can be reimbursed between $20-$50 more per hour for therapies and also can complete testing (which the MSW can't complete).

Some reimbursement rates are the exact same for some services. On average, in private practice, in this region, PsyD will pull more bank than LCSW (MSW).

Choosing the degree for the salary is absolutely the wrong starting point!!! The training and objectives are different for each position.

Good luck with your decision.