Public Option, where do you stand?

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Do you support a public health insurance option?

  • Yes

    Votes: 154 49.5%
  • No

    Votes: 122 39.2%
  • Not sure

    Votes: 35 11.3%

  • Total voters
    311
You have no problem with having for-profit grocers or for-profit carpenters (both of which provide goods and services that are more essential for life than health care) [/B]

Wait, am I missing something? Did you just say that carpenters and grocers provide goods and services that are more essential for life than health care? CARPENTERS? Really? Hah. And btw, you can theoretically grow your own food - so no, you don't need grocers. On the other hand, you can't treat yourself efficiently unless you have a medical education.
 
Wait, am I missing something? Did you just say that carpenters and grocers provide goods and services that are more essential for life than health care? CARPENTERS? Really? Hah. And btw, you can theoretically grow your own food - so no, you don't need grocers. On the other hand, you can't treat yourself efficiently unless you have a medical education.

You can't grow food unless you have land and sustainable crops either. You're saying land and sustainable crops should be free too?

The only real difference between health care and grocery stores is the demand elasticity of the good. Health care is almost perfectly inelastic (no other option than to get healthcare) and food is elastic (you can choose what food to buy). Use that argument next time.

But then I'd have to counter and tell you that no matter what the demand curve looks like, government enforced price caps always leads to deadweight loss. Simple economics.
 
Perhaps it would help to read about the CBO's report on the House public option that was released late last month:

After all the fuss, public option would cover few

WASHINGTON - What's all the fuss about? After all the noise over Democrats' push for a government insurance plan to compete with private carriers, coverage numbers are finally in: Two percent.

Congressional Budget Office weighs in

The latest look at the public option comes from the Congressional Budget Office, the nonpartisan economic analysts for lawmakers.

It found that the scaled back government plan in the House bill wouldn't overtake private health insurance. To the contrary, it might help the insurers a little.

The budget office estimated that about 6 million people would sign up for the public option in 2019, when the House bill is fully phased in. That represents about 2 percent of a total of 282 million Americans under age 65. (Older people are covered through Medicare.)

The overwhelming majority of the population would remain in private health insurance plans sponsored by employers. Others, mainly low-income people, would be covered through an expanded Medicaid program.

To be fair, most people would not have access to the new public plan. Under the House bill, it would be offered through new insurance exchanges open only to those who buy coverage on their own or work for small companies. Yet even within that pool of 30 million people, only 1-in-5 would take the public option.

Who's likely to sign up?

The budget office said "a less healthy pool of enrollees" would probably be attracted to the public option, drawn by the prospect of looser rules on access to specialists and medical services.

Higher premiums in public plan

As a result, premiums in the public plan would be higher than the average for private plans. That could nudge healthy middle-class workers and their families to sign up for private plans.

"The concern was that the public option would destabilize the bulk of private insurance, but in fact what Congress has fashioned is very targeted," said economist Karen Davis, president of the Commonwealth Fund. "It's not going to be taking away the insurance industry's core business."

If their analysis is correct, the public option will actually help insurance companies, by sponging up some high-cost patients and shunting some of the healthy uninsured into private coverage.

IMHO, the only truly frightening idea that has been floated in this entire debate was to mandate physician participation in the public option. Since that notion died quickly months ago, there hasn't been much left to fear. Even if public option coverage gets massively expanded, in my opinion we would simply move to a health care model more like Switzerland, where the public plan provides basic coverage and private insurers sell gold-plating, or Australia, where public and private systems coexist. Either situation could be preferable to operating under one of the regional health insurer oligarchies, like we do now.

Finally, for those who object to being government slaves, the solution is simple: don't see patients on Medicare or Medicaid, don't accept public option patients if/when such a plan is passed, and don't work at a VA. There are many other practice options available, including cash only practices (which are starting to make a comeback).
 
Are you 18, 19 or 20 years old? Ever pay for rent, student loan bills, heating, new tires, oil change, etc, etc all in the same month while not having a job, or a job that even pays enough to do all of these basic needs? I tell you what, I was in this exact position more than once. I wanted to make money on my own so I could support myself through the rest of my life and not always be dependent on a pay check. So, I took my love, addiction, and knowledge of the Internet and I do Domain Name Investing as a hobby. I'm now in the process of spreading this stuff into a full fledged business. Read my thread about a unique EC and you will see what I'm talking about.

I agree with the above poster. Your status in this society is dependent on the number of 0's in your checking account and how important you are to society. Don't kid yourself that the governement cares about teachers when they say they do. In the community where my parents live, the State is forcing 40 teaches to retire so they can make budget cuts. I repeat, they are FORCING them to retire. What are these teachers going to do when they no longer can work the job they have done for two decades if they don't have enough money to live off? They will get a job.

You want to know what it feels like to have $0.00 in your checking account when you are 22 years old? I felt like the most useless human on planet Earth. I was really depressed at that time of my life because I was homeless at the time as well (got laid off from my factory job because they moved to Mexico).

So, if you want to talk to me about this whole money thing and we shouldn't be motivated by it, you are barking up the wrong tree when talking to me. Being a doctor obviously won't make you rich if your become a grant chaser in academia, but the opportunities are endless on the business side. If it was up to me, I would gradaute with my MD, do a residency and start a company making technology in that specialty. This would make a much bigger impact on the world than seeing all of those patients in the clinic all day. Technology can last forever, that one patient you talked with in the clinic that one day will pass away eventually.

Check yourself my friend. Nowhere did I say it's wrong to aspire to great affluence. I merely stated that not everyone wants to. As to status...don't make me laugh. I'm not even going to address that comment.

I'm not sure where the diatribe on teachers came from nor do I particularly care. You make a lot of assumptions about what I do and do not know and you've gotta be careful where you make them. Don't presume to know anything about my life or where I'm from.
 
I'm worried about the inevitable inefficiencies that arise because of government controls, that this will make healthcare worse for many and better for few.

Physician compensation is a factor. Lowering physician compensation lowers the incentive to take on tons of debt to go through years of intense medical training, which therefore lowers the competition to get into medical school, which lowers the quality of the students who want to be doctors, which lowers healthcare quality.[/QUOTE]

yup yup yup...you got it. You are completely right.

I am baffled how others in our country do NOT see this. All people need to do is look up figures for patient outcome for specific illnesses in different countries, and compare their treatment with the united states. People from all over the world (especially canada) come to the US for many procedures and healthcare. We have the top physicians, the top medicine, in the world.

If I, or my family, had a severe medical issue, I would want medical care from the best doctor in the field, regardless of their intention of going into medicine. If you're a brilliant physician who has a high success rate with your patients, I couldn't care less if you went into medicine for the money.

Physicians should be well compensated, period. There aren't many other professions that undergo the financial and personal sacrifice that doctors in training do. Every weekend or night that you give away to spending time with your loved ones, but instead spending time with your books - should be valued and physicians should be compensated accordingly, for a lifelong dedication to a profession that not many others can relate to.
 
All people need to do is look up figures for patient outcome for specific illnesses in different countries, and compare their treatment with the united states. People from all over the world (especially canada) come to the US for many procedures and healthcare. We have the top physicians, the top medicine, in the world.

Per the only study on the subject, and despite the common perception, Canadian usage of the American healthcare system appears to be vanishingly small.

As for your other claim, if you are talking about finite, procedure oriented care received during single hospitalizations, then you're probably right, we do have the best medicine in the world. Unfortunately this isn't the whole picture, and our issues with cost, access, and enormous variations in care quality dwarf this lone victory.

While it's easy to frame this debate in terms of which country a wealthy sick person would most like to visit, look at it a different way. If you were going to be born into the world tomorrow, to an unknown family of unknown means, and had to choose a nation based solely on its health care system, which one would you pick?

Which one provides the best access? Which one is most likely to get you vaccinated? Which one will best serve minor complaints? Which one will best administer preventive care? Which one will give you access to high end treatments in the unlikely event that you need them? Which one best manages chronic illnesses? Which one will treat you without sending you to the poorhouse? If you phrase it that way you are getting a broader examination of each systems pros and cons.

As for compensation, I'm all for it. I'll be in practice in 8 months, and I've got quite a pile of unfunded obligations to catch up on. But I think collectively we need to make some serious improvements in the system before we can really whine about our paychecks. I'm probably in the minority with that opinion. :laugh:
 
Why do I support a public option? Because in the US the only two ways civilians have control over companies is through litigation and the strong arm of the State. Litigation works well against some things (tobacco) but what works best is litigation and the strong arm approach.

The public option is self-sufficient, and even if it isn't it will cut down on the secret tax we pay for ER visits. I think people are making a HUGE deal about this because people like to make a huge deal. This is not a landmark change.

Both of your paragraphs are based on false premises.

In the first one, there is a third way the public can influence companies and that is to not buy products they think are overpriced. Yet we keep consuming more health care even though the prices are increasing. Until we reach a point where we say oh, that is too much to pay for a checkup, or that is too much to pay for heart surgery, prices will keep going up. Also, how does having a public option strong arm private insurance companies? Unless the govt is going to allow the public option to operate at a loss (which you claim in your next paragraph they won't), how will it be able to strong arm the huge already established companies? The answer is that the public option would have to operate at a loss and the govt. would fund it by increasing taxes.

Next, saying that the public option is self sufficient is a flat out lie, which you even infer your self by adding "if it isn't". The public option will cover those who either can't afford insurance or who have pre-existing conditions. So how is the government going to cover people with the highest medical costs by collecting premiums from people who can't afford insurance on their own w/o collecting additional taxes to support it.

If you are so concerned about the "secret ER tax" then why don't you support stopping all govt subsidizing of medical care?

You still haven't made a sound argument for the public option.
 
Sounds like the conservatives need better talking points. You guys aren't winning the war for the hearts and minds of future physicians. :laugh:
 
If you earn $44,000 a year, you will pay $7,300 a year. A family earning $102,100 a year before taxes will have to pay a $15,000 premium plus an estimated $5,300 out-of-pocket, for a total of $20,300.

You aren't accounting for subsidies in your math either.

See this is what I don't get. What's the point in charging the listed premiums above, only to counter-act them/decrease them with subsidies?

On the one hand, the govt. can say this plan is self-sustainable with premiums because they charge X person who makes Y money with Z premium.

On the other hand, they can say, "But wait, the public option is very affordable because we'll give you subsidies if you need them."

Isn't the point of the set premium price is to ensure that the govt. will have the money the reimburse the health care providers? If there's a gap in this income, how will the govt. close this gap and ensure their expenses don't exceed their income?
 
In the first one, there is a third way the public can influence companies and that is to not buy products they think are overpriced. Yet we keep consuming more health care even though the prices are increasing. Until we reach a point where we say oh, that is too much to pay for a checkup, or that is too much to pay for heart surgery, prices will keep going up.

The fact that most health services are reimbursed by third party payers largely divorces them from this simplistic dynamic. But the effects of increased costs are felt: higher premiums each year = fewer insured people.

bigal40 said:
Also, how does having a public option strong arm private insurance companies?

I don't see where Caesar made this claim. He said that the State may strong arm private companies on behalf of civilians.

I don't mind a public option because it's at least attempting to inject a little capitalistic sensibility into health care. As this July Business Week article states: "In Most Markets, a Few Health Insurers Dominate":

Each year the American Medical Assn. (AMA) surveys the commercial health-insurance landscape and finds little if any competition. Its latest report says that, out of 314 metropolitan markets, 94% are controlled by one or two companies, or fewer. In 15 states, one insurer has 50% or more of the entire market.

In the end I don't think a public option will be the silver bullet its supporters hope for, but it likewise won't be the end of the world that its detractors claim. It will just be another program trying to shave a few more million off the rolls of the uninsured.
 
Amazing thread. I don't understand the concept of market failure... but let me tell you about this little panacea we call capitalism.

The healthcare market is not a free market. Regardless of what reforms you implement it cannot become a free market in the foreseeable future.
To assume that people are rational actors when it comes to much of their spending is laughable. Assuming that people are capable of making rational cost/benefit healthcare decisions is orders of magnitude more absurd.
 
I hate to be "that guy", but you do realize that it is possible to have a conversation about these topics without taking that tone, right? I mean, this is the internet, I know I am smarter than you are and right, you know you are smarter than me and right.

Yeah, I was being kinda douchbagish last night. My apologies.

Why is there no competition? There is a far greater cost to enter the market than other markets. Generally speaking the cheaper the entrance to the market the more competition.

High start up cost might be a factor, but the greatest factor has to do with the fact that most people don't "shop" for health insurance. They take whatever insurance that is offered by their employer. Furthermore, the insurance company has no incentive to invest in retaining current clients because should the client move or leave his job, the company looses the client automatically. Moreover, the fact that insurance companies are forbidden by state and federal laws from competing across state lines further adds to the practical monopoly that exists in the insurance market.

At the PCP level, there is little to no competition because our third party payer system prevents both the doctor and the patient from considering the cost vs the benefit of the service received. If people had more direct control over the dollars that they spent on health care, then prices would come down.

There is nothing wrong with making money providing a good or service. There are strong ethical and moral implications to profiting off of people's fear of becoming ill. Also some of the practices in the Healthcare system are questionable at best, and in the past the gov has stepped in to protect citizens.

By your logic, fire insurance, theft insurance, and every other kind of insurance is also immoral because they profit off of people's fear of having a fire/being robbed/etc. You see evil corporations, I see a business providing a service that people are willing to pay money for. The problem with health insurance is that people think that "good" insurance pays for every single medical expense I might ever have. That is about as good a business model as expecting your auto insurance company to pay for oil changes or new tires.

Also, there is a big gap between government regulating products or pracitices that are unsafe to the population, and forcing people to purchase a product that they don't want or need.

Yes, I know how to cut and paste. I could type it all out too, but I think you can see how typing "the constitution" into google and copying is a far better use of time than showing myself that I can type something I have memorized.

Forgive my copy/paste but Promote - 2 a : to contribute to the growth or prosperity of : further <promote international understanding> b : to help bring (as an enterprise) into being : launch c : to present (merchandise) for buyer acceptance through advertising, publicity, or discounting

There is a STRONG argument to be made that a public option advances or promotes the welfare of the population.

I can make just as strong an argument that such a plan would overall weaken the general welfare of the nation. Irregardless, the preamble is only the purpose of the constitution not an ennumeration of powers. What specific power is granted to the federal government to provide health care to its citizens?

The Federal gov DOES have that power (heard of the VA?). Yes, I mentioned those because they are great examples of the Gov deciding that somethings serve the population better when they aren't privately owned. Besides, I never said I was opposed to states offering health care, I'm actually all for it! But they don't have that right exclusively.

First, just because the government is doing something does not mean it is constitutional.

Second, the VA is provided to former military personel in exchange for their military service. Military personal do not have to utilize the VA (many I know don't because it sucks), nor are they forced to purchase VA insurance, etc.

Third, if you read the 10th amendment, it says that any power not specifically given to the federal government in the constitution is reserved for the states. The states can and do have that authority and they use it (auto insurance is a perfect example).
 
Sounds like the conservatives need better talking points. You guys aren't winning the war for the hearts and minds of future physicians. :laugh:

That is because most of you haven't the faintest idea of what kind of abuse and mistreatment is in store for you.

After another four years we'll talk again.
 
I am baffled how others in our country do NOT see this. All people need to do is look up figures for patient outcome for specific illnesses in different countries, and compare their treatment with the united states. People from all over the world (especially canada) come to the US for many procedures and healthcare. We have the top physicians, the top medicine, in the world.

Exactly right.
 
To assume that people are rational actors when it comes to much of their spending is laughable.

I'm betting 99.9% of all economists, who devoted their lives to studying human behavior in response to scarcity, will disagree with you there.

Spending rationally only means one thing - you're spending the money to maximize your happiness. Everyone does this subconsciously.
 
Had a presentation here the other day about the healthcare reform...

Every medically related program the government has run (Medicare, Medicaidx2) has gone drastically over budget.

Essentially each has gone over the CBO estimate by about 10 times. This has happened three times in a row. So now the government comes out with yet another medical program and says it is going to cost "only" 1.2 trillion. So, if history holds, and there is no reason to think it shouldn't, it could very well end up costing over 10 trillion dollars.

Change we can believe in...

Here is Obama himself talking about how amazing the government has done with running the Post Office compared to UPS and FedEx 🙂

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XTi-WdOu2s[/YOUTUBE]
 
I'm betting 99.9% of all economists, who devoted their lives to studying human behavior in response to scarcity, will disagree with you there.

Spending rationally only means one thing - you're spending the money to maximize your happiness. Everyone does this subconsciously.

Sorry about your cluelessness.
 
The problem with health insurance is that people think that "good" insurance pays for every single medical expense I might ever have.
This is the entire problem. People have evolved unrealistic expectations fed, at least in part, by the misconception that Canadians (and other western democracies) have "free health care" for everyone.

Insurance should protect individuals from financial catastrophe. Instead people expect it to protect them from paying $100 for an office visit. What many people really want is a plan with zero out of pocket expenses. What they don't realize is that nothing is free. Zero out of pocket expenses implies enormous premiums.
 
Wait, am I missing something? Did you just say that carpenters and grocers provide goods and services that are more essential for life than health care? CARPENTERS? Really? Hah. And btw, you can theoretically grow your own food - so no, you don't need grocers. On the other hand, you can't treat yourself efficiently unless you have a medical education.

ABSOLUTELY. One of the first things they will teach you in medical school is that medical care has VERY LITTLE to do with overall health. Food and shelter, much more important.
 
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so by your logic, blowing my life savings to fuel a drug habit is a rational spending habit since it makes me happy?
 
so by your logic, blowing my life savings to fuel a drug habit is a rational spending habit since it makes me happy?

If that's what maximizes your utility, then yes. You have spent your money on what you believe would give you the greatest satisfaction.

Thinking drugs is better than your future is irrational. Spending money on drugs because you think drugs will make you happy is rational.
 
If that's what maximizes your utility, then yes. You have spent your money on what you believe would give you the greatest satisfaction.

Thinking drugs is better than your future is irrational. Spending money on drugs because you think drugs will make you happy is rational.
sounds like a great way to justify the consumerism that has swallowed this country
 
sounds like a great way to justify the consumerism that has swallowed this country

Well, economics is based on the principle that people spend money rationally, and I believe in economics, so....
 
Well, economics is based on the principle that people spend money rationally, and I believe in economics, so....
i'm no economist but i'll have to ask my econ major gf about this. but on first blush i don't see how this has to be true especially given your definition of rational spending
 
i'm no economist but i'll have to ask my econ major gf about this. but on first blush i don't see how this has to be true especially given your definition of rational spending

It's true but he's slightly distorting the principle economists follow. It does assume that all people spend "rationally" but that does not imply anything about the practicality of their spending. It merely means that each person spends in a way that they think they are getting the most out of. Sometimes what they're "getting" is time, satisfaction, peace. It's not always something tangible.
 
It's true but he's slightly distorting the principle economists follow. It does assume that all people spend "rationally" but that does not imply anything about the practicality of their spending. It merely means that each person spends in a way that they think they are getting the most out of. Sometimes what they're "getting" is time, satisfaction, peace. It's not always something tangible.
econ has always been fascinating personally because it's just inscrutible to me. all these models and predictors of something completely artificial and somewhat arbitrary. just don't get it.
 
I absolutely and staunchly support the Public Option. Why? For the same reason that I support mandatory fire service and police, I suppose. It's something that seems self evident.


The reason that there is so little competition in healthcare companies is not because governments impose limits on providing healthcare across state lines. It's because the administrative costs for the providers would be staggering. That's why there are ALREADY limitations on which doctor you can see with such-and-such insurance -- Most doctors (or even hospitals) can't afford a legion of staffers, each trained to deal with the unique and labyrinthine rules and regulations of each individual insurance company. If the government were to open up competition across states, you STILL wouldn't get better, more efficient service because doctors aren't going to accept the insurance of 90% of the companies out there. A public option would have the benefit of one system for a huge number of patients all across the country. The US is already the biggest insurance provider in the country, one of the biggest in the world (Medicare and Medicaid). Insurance companies could either choose to, line wide, convert to the same systems of administration as the government...or not. "not" absolutely resulting in their (well deserved) death. Either way, a public option would reduce administrative costs by immediately popularizing a logical system of previously agreed upon coverage and reimbursement levels.


And Tort reform is pretty much bogus. The Congressional Budget office estimates that about 2% of all healthcare spending is spent on malpractice suits, and the most recent studies, one of which published by Harvard in the the New ENgland Journal of Medicine (2006), concluded that the vast majority of cases of malpractice that were settled with money for the plaintiff (over 75%) were legitimate (ie, some wrong was done or mistake was made by the doctor). Seventy-two percent of cases in which there was an injury not due to physician error did not result in payment.


Public Citizen, a consumer advocacy group, notes "that a historical pattern has been established that insurance rates rise also based on the investment market ... Earlier 'crises' (in 1975&#8211;6 and 1985&#8211;6) similar to today's 'crisis' were due to declining investment fortunes and failed pricing practices of the insurance industry rather than an increase in medical malpractice filings and awards. Then, as now, the insurance industry covered its losses by raising rates dramatically, then blamed the lawyers of innocent patients rightfully seeking compensation for negligence-related injuries."
 
The reason that there is so little competition in healthcare companies is not because governments impose limits on providing healthcare across state lines. It's because the administrative costs for the providers would be staggering. That's why there are ALREADY limitations on which doctor you can see with such-and-such insurance -- Most doctors (or even hospitals) can't afford a legion of staffers, each trained to deal with the unique and labyrinthine rules and regulations of each individual insurance company. If the government were to open up competition across states, you STILL wouldn't get better, more efficient service because doctors aren't going to accept the insurance of 90% of the companies out there. A public option would have the benefit of one system for a huge number of patients all across the country. The US is already the biggest insurance provider in the country, one of the biggest in the world (Medicare and Medicaid). Insurance companies could either choose to, line wide, convert to the same systems of administration as the government...or not. "not" absolutely resulting in their (well deserved) death. Either way, a public option would reduce administrative costs by immediately popularizing a logical system of previously agreed upon coverage and reimbursement levels.

And yet, despite "low" administrative costs of Medicaid and Medicare* they are still grossly overbudgeted. Reducing the administrative costs of insurance companies will help, but it certainly isn't the golden ticket to solving high health care costs. Even in Taiwan where they have the lowest administrative costs (due to the regulated cost of services, single payer system, and national databases), they still spend too much on health care and are having to borrowing money from international banks to sustain their health care system.

And Tort reform is pretty much bogus. The Congressional Budget office estimates that about 2% of all healthcare spending is spent on malpractice suits, and the most recent studies, one of which published by Harvard in the the New ENgland Journal of Medicine (2006), concluded that the vast majority of cases of malpractice that were settled with money for the plaintiff (over 75%) were legitimate (ie, some wrong was done or mistake was made by the doctor). Seventy-two percent of cases in which there was an injury not due to physician error did not result in payment.

I'll agree partially. I, however, don't think that the main argument for Tort reform is that the actual malpractice suits and litigation are the source of high health care costs (since, as you've shown, 2% is a paltry number). Instead, I think the main idea behind Tort reform is that doctors are practicing excessive defensive medicine in order to not be sued. These excessive tests are what purportedly drive up health care costs. The effect to which this occurs though is highly debatable, since it's hard to statistically measure this sort of defensive medicine.

I don't have a problem with the Public Option, if we could actually afford it or if it was self-sustaining. However, I don't believe that to be the case.

*Administrative costs are often looked over and can be complex in what they include. In some instances, you might consider administrative costs for Medicaid to actually be higher per patient than private insurers. It's worth reading into: Here , Here, and here
 
And yet, despite "low" administrative costs of Medicaid and Medicare* they are still grossly overbudgeted. Reducing the administrative costs of insurance companies will help, but it certainly isn't the golden ticket to solving high health care costs. Even in Taiwan where they have the lowest administrative costs (due to the regulated cost of services, single payer system, and national databases), they still spend too much on health care and are having to borrowing money from international banks to sustain their health care system.

Part of the reason that they are grossley overbudgeted is that so many people who feed into those systems come in with poorer health for not having healthcare previously. For example, (According to one study) Medicare pays $5,796 a year (on average) for those who have not have had insurance before, while it pays $4,773 for those who have been covered. By assuring wider coverage, coverage for EVERYONE at every age, you'll be driving down costs every year.

And Taiwan is spending much less of their GDP on healthcare than we are -- just a little over 6% if I recall correctly. If they were to increase that to even 8% (still half of what we spend)they would have more than enough money to pay for it. Their problem is that they don't want to spend anymore...we are ALREADY spending twice as much as them. We WISH we had to spend 8% of our GDP. .


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I'll agree partially. I, however, don't think that the main argument for Tort reform is that the actual malpractice suits and litigation are the source of high health care costs (since, as you've shown, 2% is a paltry number). Instead, I think the main idea behind Tort reform is that doctors are practicing excessive defensive medicine in order to not be sued. These excessive tests are what purportedly drive up health care costs. The effect to which this occurs though is highly debatable, since it's hard to statistically measure this sort of defensive medicine.
Right, but the evidence seems to be that there isn't so much useless litigation out there -- and when it is frivolous, doctors win out. At best, you can say the myth of numerous frivolous lawsuits is scaring doctors into defensive medicine, but even that is a bit of a stretch. And tort reform wouldn't fix that any better than an education campaign would (without the added danger of creating a system in which doctors aren't held accountable for their preventable mistakes). Mostly likely it's a lot of very good propaganda from insurance companies who, as noted, are mostly responsible for the insane price of malpractice insurance.

I don't have a problem with the Public Option, if we could actually afford it or if it was self-sustaining. However, I don't believe that to be the case.
But why not? What makes our system so different from foreign systems? Switzerland was almost in exactly the same position we're in right now back in the 90s, and they managed it quite successfully.
 
And a question to those against the public option....

Is it just an issue of money, for you? Do you honestly feel that the majority of americans will be worse off with a public option, healthcare-wise, than without out?

If you do, please explain it to me. If you feel that it will lead to less people being covered, or more people dying as a result of poor care, explain that to me. Explain how covering millions more people with healthcare is going to make the majority of this country honestly worse off when it comes to life-and-death treatments and procedures?

And for those whose chief worry is a budgetary one...At one point do the lives of human beings outweigh the digital dollars and cents of such a program? Does anyone really feel that way? That it's better just to let people die than lose or redistribute wealth?
 
It's true but he's slightly distorting the principle economists follow. It does assume that all people spend "rationally" but that does not imply anything about the practicality of their spending. It merely means that each person spends in a way that they think they are getting the most out of. Sometimes what they're "getting" is time, satisfaction, peace. It's not always something tangible.

👍

That was exactly what I was saying! Or at least what I meant by saying "Thinking drugs is better than your future is irrational. Spending money on drugs because you think drugs will make you happy is rational."
 
I absolutely and staunchly support the Public Option. Why? For the same reason that I support mandatory fire service and police, I suppose. It's something that seems self evident.


The reason that there is so little competition in healthcare companies is not because governments impose limits on providing healthcare across state lines. It's because the administrative costs for the providers would be staggering. That's why there are ALREADY limitations on which doctor you can see with such-and-such insurance -- Most doctors (or even hospitals) can't afford a legion of staffers, each trained to deal with the unique and labyrinthine rules and regulations of each individual insurance company. If the government were to open up competition across states, you STILL wouldn't get better, more efficient service because doctors aren't going to accept the insurance of 90% of the companies out there. A public option would have the benefit of one system for a huge number of patients all across the country. The US is already the biggest insurance provider in the country, one of the biggest in the world (Medicare and Medicaid). Insurance companies could either choose to, line wide, convert to the same systems of administration as the government...or not. "not" absolutely resulting in their (well deserved) death. Either way, a public option would reduce administrative costs by immediately popularizing a logical system of previously agreed upon coverage and reimbursement levels.


And Tort reform is pretty much bogus. The Congressional Budget office estimates that about 2% of all healthcare spending is spent on malpractice suits, and the most recent studies, one of which published by Harvard in the the New ENgland Journal of Medicine (2006), concluded that the vast majority of cases of malpractice that were settled with money for the plaintiff (over 75%) were legitimate (ie, some wrong was done or mistake was made by the doctor). Seventy-two percent of cases in which there was an injury not due to physician error did not result in payment.


Public Citizen, a consumer advocacy group, notes "that a historical pattern has been established that insurance rates rise also based on the investment market ... Earlier 'crises' (in 1975–6 and 1985–6) similar to today’s 'crisis' were due to declining investment fortunes and failed pricing practices of the insurance industry rather than an increase in medical malpractice filings and awards. Then, as now, the insurance industry covered its losses by raising rates dramatically, then blamed the lawyers of innocent patients rightfully seeking compensation for negligence-related injuries."

You only arguemnt for the public option is that it would have lower administrative costs? Tell me that isn't the best you can come up with.

The govt runs medicare/aid and both have run way over their budget even with their "lower administrative costs" and their lower reimbursement rates to doctors. Public healthcare in the US is extremely inefficient. We spend about the same dollar amount per capita on public healthcare as the europeans do, but we only cover 40% of our citizens compared with 95% percent of citizens in European countries who spend the same amount of money.

Then you talk about tort reform which really has nothing to do with the public option. I will admit that I probably support tort reform so strongly because of my future profession, but you say the CBO estimates that medcial expenditures could be cut by 2% if a cap was put in place. The thing is putting a cap on malpractice suits costs $0. If you were really concerned about reducing costs then why would you support a $1.2 trillion dollar bill that doesn't even include the easiest free way to save 2%?
 
You only arguemnt for the public option is that it would have lower administrative costs? Tell me that isn't the best you can come up with.

The govt runs medicare/aid and both have run way over their budget even with their "lower administrative costs" and their lower reimbursement rates to doctors. Public healthcare in the US is extremely inefficient. We spend about the same dollar amount per capita on public healthcare as the europeans do, but we only cover 40% of our citizens compared with 95% percent of citizens in European countries who spend the same amount of money.

Right, and part of the problem is that people here are more unhealthy because only certain pockets of people are given consistent access to healthcare. As I said above, simply extending healthcare to all with, in and of itself, reduce healthcare costs over time.

But you haven't refuted a word of what I've said in regards to admin costs -- a widely used public option will absolutely lower administrative costs, simply by the use of a uniform administration system. Medicare and Medicaid cover the most unhealthy subsection of the population, so it costs a lot to run. It's not brain surgery to figure why that might be.

Then you talk about tort reform which really has nothing to do with the public option.

I don't believe I said it did. I'm simply giving my opinions on the various issues at hand. One of which seems to be Tort reform.


I will admit that I probably support tort reform so strongly because of my future profession, but you say the CBO estimates that medcial expenditures could be cut by 2% if a cap was put in place. The thing is putting a cap on malpractice suits costs $0

Except that suddenly it's not so costly to make mistakes, and suddenly people aren't being reimbursed reasonably for the losses that result from genuine negligence on the part of doctors.

There is nothing wrong with the current system of malpractice, save for the insurance aspect of it, which as I've said is caused more by the poor investment and the need for profit of insurance providers.


If you were really concerned about reducing costs then why would you support a $1.2 trillion dollar bill that doesn't even include the easiest free way to save 2%?

I'll be honest -- I'm not terribly concerned with reducing costs. I place the value of individual lives, and the quality of those lives, as greater than money in the pocket or money in the bank.

That said, 2% of healthcare spending is for malpractice in general, not useless or erroneous malpractice. Are you actually saying that you support doctors being above the law?

Malpractice caps would make the difference, most likely, of a fraction of a percent...so small a difference as to be almost unfelt in the grand scheme of spending. And to what end? People having less legal recourse when the medical system legitimately wrongs them?

No thanks.
 
And a question to those against the public option....

Is it just an issue of money, for you? Do you honestly feel that the majority of americans will be worse off with a public option, healthcare-wise, than without out?

It is a money issue, $1.2 trillion is a lot of money. Obama likes to say that health spending is unsustainable, and it may be, but the fed govt spending is far more unsustainable. In addition to the money, I also think in the long run everyone will be worse off, I could explain that all but it would be wuite a long post.

If you do, please explain it to me. If you feel that it will lead to less people being covered, or more people dying as a result of poor care, explain that to me. Explain how covering millions more people with healthcare is going to make the majority of this country honestly worse off when it comes to life-and-death treatments and procedures?

This is a loaded question, of course a few million people who get the public option will be better off, as any coverage is better than no coverage. The problem is the bill will affect 97% of the country in the long run. How will the pubic option which will cover those who either have very high medical costs or who can't afford insurance be able to sustain itself? HR3962 plans to make the public option the only option available starting in 2013.

And for those whose chief worry is a budgetary one...At one point do the lives of human beings outweigh the digital dollars and cents of such a program? Does anyone really feel that way? That it's better just to let people die than lose or redistribute wealth?

It is very sad that humans die, but not every death can be prevented. When you become a physician do you plan to spend every penny you earn to prevent others from dying? Why not, why is $200,000/ year more important for you to have than to save several peoples lives?

Charity is a very important thing, but charity is not the job of the govt and people cannot be forced to be charitable or it is not charity at all. But this really sums up the entire liberal philosophy, lets look like we are doing good but we'll do it by spending other peoples money.
 
In writing these last couple posts I began thinking that if you have to have a public option, it whoudl be an extremely high deductible plan, at least $5000, but maybe even a sliding scale for higher income earners. Premiums could be kept quite low and people would be able kept safe from unforeseen catastrophic problems. In addition to this there would need to be HSA that would give people a tax break on any preventative care they elect to have.

How many of you public option supporters would accept this as a compromise?
 
Right, and part of the problem is that people here are more unhealthy because only certain pockets of people are given consistent access to healthcare. As I said above, simply extending healthcare to all with, in and of itself, reduce healthcare costs over time.

What do you mean people are more unhealthy here? In general the US ranks on par with other developed nations in measures of health quality(meaning we are better in some measuremnts, worse in others). Simply extending healthcare to all will NOT lower healthcare costs over time. Name one country with a public option that has decreasing health care costs.

But you haven't refuted a word of what I've said in regards to admin costs -- a widely used public option will absolutely lower administrative costs, simply by the use of a uniform administration system. Medicare and Medicaid cover the most unhealthy subsection of the population, so it costs a lot to run. It's not brain surgery to figure why that might be.

I refuted everything you said. Medicare and Medicaid cost far more than they were ever estimated to cost, healthcare costs in other countries with various types of public options continue to outspend what they were projected to spend. The only countries with public options where doctors, paitients, and hospitals are satisifed are running in the red. The others have either subpar healthcare or pay doctors so poorly they go on strike(like they did in Germany)



Except that suddenly it's not so costly to make mistakes, and suddenly people aren't being reimbursed reasonably for the losses that result from genuine negligence on the part of doctors.

There is nothing wrong with the current system of malpractice, save for the insurance aspect of it, which as I've said is caused more by the poor investment and the need for profit of insurance providers.

It is still costly for doctors to make mistakes. First I don't think there are doctors out there who would intentionally provide subpar care just because they can only be sued for $500,000 instead of $5,000,000. Doctors are doctors b/c they want to help people(for the overwhelming majority)

Malpractice caps would make the difference, most likely, of a fraction of a percent...so small a difference as to be almost unfelt in the grand scheme of spending. And to what end? People having less legal recourse when the medical system legitimately wrongs them?

No thanks.

People would still have legal recourse against negligent doctors, legal recourse to cover their medical fees incurred due to the mistake but their pain and suffering payments would be limited. Since you are so concerned about saving everyones life, wouldn't you rather have that 2%( of a very large number) be spent on saving someones life instead of being spent on legal fees, malpractice insurance, and defensive medicine?
 
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It is a money issue, $1.2 trillion is a lot of money. Obama likes to say that health spending is unsustainable, and it may be, but the fed govt spending is far more unsustainable. In addition to the money, I also think in the long run everyone will be worse off, I could explain that all but it would be wuite a long post.

But something like a public option, in conjunction with a number of other reforms, would fix a system that everyone agrees is heading towards an iceberg. There are cost issues that just cannot be solved without universal healthcare - however we get there. I see public option as the most expedient way of getting to that point, but one way or another we have to get there. And that is going to cost money.

What is it business people say? You have to spend money to make money. Right?



This is a loaded question, of course a few million people who get the public option will be better off, as any coverage is better than no coverage. The problem is the bill will affect 97% of the country in the long run. How will the pubic option which will cover those who either have very high medical costs or who can't afford insurance be able to sustain itself? HR3962 plans to make the public option the only option available starting in 2013.

The thing is, I look at other countries, and I see what they have and it strikes me as infinitely better - for everyone - then what we currently have.

I mean looking at england, with their NHS, everyone has some form of coverage. It's not always the best, certainly (for instance) I have quicker access to care here in the US than I would if I were just covered by the NHS in England. But I'm hardly typical. Take someone in a lower economic bracket (my family is middle class) and you can see that lots of people hvae it much worse off...no coverage for check ups, just emergency care (which, by the way, is far more expensive than check up care).

And a friend of mine, in England, HAS private insurance on top of his NHS. And he still pays less than one would have to if they went in and bought insurance here, without an employer. They've created a system with basic universal healthcare for everyone (anything that you need, but perhaps with long waiting periods) and reasonably affordable private health insurance (gold plated, people have taken to calling it these days) for those who can afford it/want the extra comfort (shorter waiting periods, nicer facilities, etc).

And I know the dynamics of England and the US are different, but it doesn't seem so impossible to create something roughly analogous in this country.



It is very sad that humans die, but not every death can be prevented. When you become a physician do you plan to spend every penny you earn to prevent others from dying? Why not, why is $200,000/ year more important for you to have than to save several peoples lives?

I'd really rather not be one of those people who promises to do this or that when they become a doctor, but I can tell you that I don't plan on making much money over the course of my career. If that was my chief concern, I could have easily done so in a business environment.

Charity is a very important thing, but charity is not the job of the govt and people cannot be forced to be charitable or it is not charity at all. But this really sums up the entire liberal philosophy, lets look like we are doing good but we'll do it by spending other peoples money.

I think the government is supposed to have the best interests of it's citizens at heart, and I think a fully insured and healthy public is a benefit to ALL of us. It's the responsibility of the wealthy to support those (the lower income and the poor) who support the system through which we have made our money and built our success.

Everyone is responsible for everyone else. That's not communism, that's humanism.
 
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That was exactly what I was saying! Or at least what I meant by saying "Thinking drugs is better than your future is irrational. Spending money on drugs because you think drugs will make you happy is rational."

By your useless definition, everything you do is rational self-interest.
 
By your useless definition, everything you do is rational self-interest.

Not really - taking into account completely irrelevant factors is irrational.

For example, supposed someone spent a dollar trying to buy candy but the vending machine ate up his dollar. If he had plenty more money and his desire for the candy did not change, then him not buying the candy just because his dollar was eaten up is irrational since it would have given him the same amount of satisfaction as before (ie: the dollar eaten up was a sunk expenditure). There are many ways people can be irrational about their spending - but most of the time, people act as rational money spenders.

By the way, "my" definition of rational spending is basically just a restatement of economic texts that have held truth for hundreds of years.

Sorry, once again, for your low IQ. 😉
 
Except that suddenly it's not so costly to make mistakes, and suddenly people aren't being reimbursed reasonably for the losses that result from genuine negligence on the part of doctors.

There is nothing wrong with the current system of malpractice, save for the insurance aspect of it, which as I've said is caused more by the poor investment and the need for profit of insurance providers.

That said, 2% of healthcare spending is for malpractice in general, not useless or erroneous malpractice. Are you actually saying that you support doctors being above the law?

Malpractice caps would make the difference, most likely, of a fraction of a percent...so small a difference as to be almost unfelt in the grand scheme of spending. And to what end? People having less legal recourse when the medical system legitimately wrongs them?

No thanks.

Right, but the evidence seems to be that there isn't so much useless litigation out there -- and when it is frivolous, doctors win out. At best, you can say the myth of numerous frivolous lawsuits is scaring doctors into defensive medicine, but even that is a bit of a stretch.

Jesus, you have no clue do you? Have you even talked to a real practicing physician to see how much of their time (and even the patient's time/money) is consumed with this filth either directly or indirectly?
 
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Jesus, you have no clue do you? Have you even talked to a real practicing physician to see how much of their time (and even the patient's time/money) is consumed with this filth either directly or indirectly?

They don't have any clue. The liberals fall in rank with what the like of Pelosi and Obama say.

The guy really looks like an idiot by saying that he doesn't want to reduce healthcare spending by 2% for free, but supports spending $1.2 trillion on a bill that isn't even expected to reduce costs in the long run. After the first 10 years the bill will create even more costs.
 
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