Publishing without a faculty member?

[Elessar]

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No, you're not. When people talk about top academic centers, they mean 1) the coasts or 2) Chicago or St. Louis. If someone in your position told me they would not read my paper, I wouldn't take them seriously, and OP shouldn't either.

Booooooo

 

[mcloaf]

Sure, but virtually no one is publishing 12 high quality, unique, pubs on important research. The average # of research items for derm was 12 last year. You can bet the vast majority of those projects were filler items of garbage research...things like case report abstracts. People game the system. It has become a numbers game that makes a mockery of what research is actually supposed to be. Do you really think most med students are doing research because they want to advance humanity's collective knowledge? ..I can barely keep a straight face while typing that...it's clearly just a check-the-box numbers game that we are all forced to play. Sure, there are some med students out there (probably MD/PhD's) who actually care about research in and of itself, but the vast majority are just playing the game, adding to the ever-growing pile of worthless literature. That's why it's a charade.

You should spend some time actually doing research and medical school before you offer absolute statements like this. There's not a shortage of people doing crappy stuff just to get it published, but there's also plenty of quality research done by med students with good mentoring. Not everyone is a cynic like yourself just trying to game the system and get into derm.

So I will admit; You said that you wouldn't take the post seriously. Still doesn't detract from my point; just because YOU don't take it seriously, doesn't mean other PD in his area wouldn't. His paper would, at worst, be equivalent to all other papers that people write in medical school.

This whole post shows this point. You strongly allude to the paper being a waste of time and showing bad judgement, which could be construed as being worse than nothing. In fact, the post you replied to was about this very topic. Did you forget you posted this or...?

No, you're not. When people talk about top academic centers, they mean 1) the coasts or 2) Chicago or St. Louis. If someone in your position told me they would not read my paper, I wouldn't take them seriously, and OP shouldn't either.

You have no idea what you're talking about regarding academic centers.

 

[AlteredScale]

Just a reminder that it absolutely unacceptable to harass other members. Additionally, anonymity is a vital aspect of keeping our forums helpful and engaging whilst ensuring privacy to our members. Attempts to break this anonymity are against TOS and will result in consequential action.

 

[MSTP18]

This is an example of the difference in perspectives between students/applicants and programs. The only information you have to "size up the competition" so to speak is the NRMP reports. So you see that derm applicants have >12 "research items"

But from programs' perspectives they actually see what those "research items" are. Do you really think that programs are so lazy that they put some BS local school presentation on the same level as a first author publication in a legitimate journal? I promise you, they don't.

And yes, absolutely, if we see that your publications are in fake journals that we've never heard of outside of our spam filters, it's going to hurt your application.

That's all @mimelim was saying, before getting jumped on by people with far shorter CVs than his.

Yes, I remember several years ago being blown away by those research items numbers because as an MD/PhD I assumed they were all peer-reviewed publications and wondered how on earth these kids in derm were getting 12+ working part time when a PhD student working full time was often struggling to get to half as many. Once I realized it included everything from middle author at your school's research day to 1st author in Nature it was a total game changer and made all the numbers make A LOT more sense as I'll probably be applying with 30+ research items.

 

[Optimus-Prime]

Also, via orthogate, a lot of these research years people take will yield around 10 pubs. You include presentations accompanying these publications and the numbers become much more feasible.

Pertaining to earlier comments, I would imagine one to develop a degree of interest in their field of choice, looking at outcomes for a fancy face cream or something? Just as I find it interesting to look at something like outcomes of total talar replacements or biologics driving arthrodesis rates.

 

[Foot Fetish]

Guys, how can I be productive? I have an IRB approval ready to submit for my summer project w/ my mentor. Hopefully it gets approved by June, so I can get crackin' ASAP once the school year ends. I'm hoping to get an abstract, 1-2 presentations, and a 1st author pub out of this. It's not garbage research either. It's a 5 year retrospective study on an important topic in the field...but I will still need more pubs/abstracts/presentations. When and how do I get them? Should I ask my mentor for a case report on the side during the summer? I'm wary of doing research as an M2 because i want to be hyperfocused on Step 1 prep. What should I do?

 

[Optimus-Prime]

Guys, how can I be productive? I have an IRB approval ready to submit for my summer project w/ my mentor. Hopefully it gets approved by June, so I can get crackin' ASAP once the school year ends. I'm hoping to get an abstract, 1-2 presentations, and a 1st author pub out of this. It's not garbage research either. It's a 5 year retrospective study on an important topic in the field...but I will still need more pubs/abstracts/presentations. When and how do I get them? Should I ask my mentor for a case report on the side during the summer? I'm wary of doing research as an M2 because i want to be hyperfocused on Step 1 prep. What should I do?

Take a research year if your so worried about it,

Get some nice production over the summer, do well on step 1 and you will be competitive to contribute to a program. Also remember that there are people who match with less substantial research production.

Just an example:

DERMATOLOGY & DERMATOLOGIC SURGERY CLINICAL RESEARCH FELLOWSHIP AT PENN
The Division of Dermatologic Surgery at the University of Pennsylvania seeks a third or fourth-year medical student at an accredited allopathic medical school in the United States for 12 months beginning June 2017. The research fellow will focus on clinical studies related to cutaneous oncology, reconstructive surgery, appearance-related science, and patient reported outcomes. For more information, check out the Prospectus. For questions, contact (Look it up yourself if interested)

 

[Foot Fetish]

Take a research year if your so worried about it,

Get some nice production over the summer, do well on step 1 and you will be competitive to contribute to a decent program. Also remember that there are people who match with less substantial research production.

Just an example:

DERMATOLOGY & DERMATOLOGIC SURGERY CLINICAL RESEARCH FELLOWSHIP AT PENN
The Division of Dermatologic Surgery at the University of Pennsylvania seeks a third or fourth-year medical student at an accredited allopathic medical school in the United States for 12 months beginning June 2017. The research fellow will focus on clinical studies related to cutaneous oncology, reconstructive surgery, appearance-related science, and patient reported outcomes. For more information, check out the Prospectus. For questions, contact (Look it up yourself if interested)

I was really hoping to avoid a research year if possible. I don't care about rankings, and I have no geographic preferences. If I got a 250+ on Step 1, mostly honors in my clerkships, and ~5-6 research items, do you think I could get in somewhere if I applied to every single derm program in the country? There will be even more programs to apply to once I'm an M4 due to the AOA/ACGME merger, which may boost my chances a bit. I go to a top 30 school if that makes any difference.

 

[Optimus-Prime]

I was really hoping to avoid a research year if possible. I don't care about rankings, and I have no geographic preferences. If I got a 250+ on Step 1, mostly honors in my clerkships, and ~5-6 research items, do you think I could get in somewhere if I applied to every single derm program in the country? There will be even more programs to apply to once I'm an M4 due to the AOA/ACGME merger, which may boost my chances a bit. I go to a top 30 school if that makes any difference.

Thats a question for charting outcomes if you want some accurate numbers. I would imagine you would be competitive, but I don't know anything about derm. Your top 30 program dermatology residency director would have the best idea. If derm is your calling, one year isn't so bad to increase your chances/network/get some good letters of recommendation.

I did a clinical research year (and a half) before coming to medical school and it has been beyond useful to me.

 

[ERDOC555]

I was really hoping to avoid a research year if possible. I don't care about rankings, and I have no geographic preferences. If I got a 250+ on Step 1, mostly honors in my clerkships, and ~5-6 research items, do you think I could get in somewhere if I applied to every single derm program in the country? There will be even more programs to apply to once I'm an M4 due to the AOA/ACGME merger, which may boost my chances a bit. I go to a top 30 school if that makes any difference.

Personally I think it's worth it to take a research year to boost yourself if you really like the specialty. I'll do the same thing if I need to, but I'll make that decision towards the end of third year based on step, pubs, and AOA.

There's a reason why top schools match so well in competitive specialties besides the name. So many people I talk to walk into competitive medical schools day 1 planning on doing 5 years for Derm/Ortho/Plastics and it's not a weird concept for these students. A research year is basically the norm. At my mid tier school almost no one takes research years and we have a ****load of SOAPs and Prelims every single year. Literally every kid with a 250 decides they want to switch from family to a competitive specialty, but they have no research, no top school name, and no connections to back it up. Then they wonder why they don't match.

Remember for derm even the crappiest programs get 600+ applications for 2-7 spots. They can literally filter 250+ and Research and still have to reject good candidates for even an interview. You need to stand out somehow. A productive research year is probably the best CV booster you can get at that point.

 

[Foot Fetish]

Personally I think it's worth it to take a research year to boost yourself if you really like the specialty. I'll do the same thing if I need to, but I'll make that decision towards the end of third year based on step, pubs, and AOA.

There's a reason why top schools match so well in competitive specialties besides the name. So many people I talk to walk into competitive medical schools day 1 planning on doing 5 years for Derm/Ortho/Plastics and it's not a weird concept for these students. A research year is basically the norm. At my mid tier school almost no one takes research years and we have a ****load of SOAPs and Prelims every single year. Literally every kid with a 250 decides they want to switch from family to a competitive specialty, but they have no research, no top school name, and no connections to back it up. Then they wonder why they don't match.

Remember for derm even the crappiest programs get 600+ applications for 2-7 spots. They can literally filter 250+ and Research and still have to reject good candidates for even an interview. You need to stand out somehow. A productive research year is probably the best CV booster you can get at that point.

What do you think is the cut-off for deciding to take a research year? I know someone who matched derm this year with just 6 research items. Only 1 or 2 of those was a pub.

 

[ERDOC555]

What do you think is the cut-off for deciding to take a research year? I know someone who matched derm this year with just 6 research items. Only 1 or 2 of those was a pub.

There's no one formula. I've seem trash applicants match, and great ones SOAP into a random field. Unfortunately there is a lot of nepotism and a good amount of programs will take their own mediocre or bad student who literally didn't get any other interviews. Sucks, but it's true. There are a handful of applicants with sub 220 that match each year, how do you think these people are getting their spots?

Meet with your PD once you have Step 1 and AOA status. Show him/her your publications (if any at that point), and ask his/her advice. He may say you're great and good to go and maybe he'd even be happy to have you stay at the home program. Or he/she might say you wouldn't stand a chance and should take a research year there or at a different institution. Really just depends. Also look at what % of your current residents are from your own school. High = good, Low = bad (generally)

 

[MSTP18]

Personally I think it's worth it to take a research year to boost yourself if you really like the specialty. I'll do the same thing if I need to, but I'll make that decision towards the end of third year based on step, pubs, and AOA.

There's a reason why top schools match so well in competitive specialties besides the name. So many people I talk to walk into competitive medical schools day 1 planning on doing 5 years for Derm/Ortho/Plastics and it's not a weird concept for these students. A research year is basically the norm. At my mid tier school almost no one takes research years and we have a ****load of SOAPs and Prelims every single year. Literally every kid with a 250 decides they want to switch from family to a competitive specialty, but they have no research, no top school name, and no connections to back it up. Then they wonder why they don't match.

Remember for derm even the crappiest programs get 600+ applications for 2-7 spots. They can literally filter 250+ and Research and still have to reject good candidates for even an interview. You need to stand out somehow. A productive research year is probably the best CV booster you can get at that point.

Well said. I remember hearing as a 1st/2nd year that for certain specialties, research years are relatively standard barring an EXCEPTIONAL record (250 Step 1 is not exceptional for those specialties). Even kids pursuing competitive programs in non-competitive specialties (e.g. MGH for IM) still often took research years. 20-25% of each class is doing a research year at my school.