Quality DO school vs low-tier MD school

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bahdahboom

bahdahboom

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Sincere question...
I'm in this predicament. Got into what I consider a quality DO school and also an MD school that is classified as "low-tier."

And yes I used the search function.

Should I choose the lower tier one? Please and thank you.
 
bahdahboom said:
Sincere question...
I'm in this predicament. Got into what I consider a quality DO school and also an MD school that is classified as "low-tier."

And yes I used the search function.

Should I choose the lower tier one? Please and thank you.
Click to expand...

Is the MD school in the US? If yes go there as long as it isn't cnsu.
 
bahdahboom said:
Sincere question...
I'm in this predicament. Got into what I consider a quality DO school and also an MD school that is classified as "low-tier."

And yes I used the search function.

Should I choose the lower tier one? Please and thank you.
Click to expand...

MD school. You will close doors even choosing a solid DO school should you decide to apply to surgical subspecialties, derm, optho, IM at a research intensive residency program.

Congrats on the acceptances!
 
I'll save you some time

Give names. Otherwise everyone on this forum will tell you MD with the information you've given us (none)
 
AlteredScale said:
MD school. You will close doors even choosing a solid DO school should you decide to apply to surgical subspecialties, derm, optho, IM at a research intensive residency program.

Congrats on the acceptances!
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Okay thank you! I'm looking at EM, peds, or IM as of now but I'm sure that will change. I just wasn't sure if I should compare board scores.
 
Dr. Death said:
I'll save you some time

Give names. Otherwise everyone on this forum will tell you MD with the information you've given us (none)
Click to expand...
I understand I'm being vague. But I want to remain as anonymous as possible on here. I may have to PM some members to get a more direct answer. Thanks for replying.
 
even go to CNSU over a DO school unfortunately its the age we are in. Maybe in 25 years DO will be valued as the same as MD on all fronts but thats not the world we live in today. Go where most doors will remain open.

I'm one of those future country hippy docs where I valued OMT highly and plan on using it in my primary care practice that's why I wanted DO but for the vast majority of people I recommend MD. I know goals change and you should still have the door open
 
Read SDN proactively and the answer will be a no brainer.

This is the 2014 NRMP Program Director Survey
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PD-Survey-Report-2014.pdf

Find one field where a DO is interviewed and ranked at the same percentage as a US MD. This tells you a lot. Even if you want peds, IM, and family med the quality level of your match will drastically rise if you went to an MD school. You can have a fair shot at a top tier residency program just by attending even a low-tier MD school.
 
IslandStyle808 said:
Read SDN proactively and the answer will be a no brainer.

This is the 2014 NRMP Program Director Survey
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PD-Survey-Report-2014.pdf

Find one field where a DO is interviewed and ranked at the same percentage as a US MD. This tells you a lot. Even if you want peds, IM, and family med the quality level of your match will drastically rise if you went to an MD school. You can have a fair shot at a top tier residency program just by attending even a low-tier MD school.
Click to expand...

I didn't really look at the survey, but did DO's score the same boards as MDs who interviewed? There are also many more MDs than DOs who participated in the match.

Has this discrepancy been normalized? I would expect that more MDs are interviewed than DOs because there are many more MDs who participate in the match than DOs.

Yes, I can see a clear bias, but I don't think it paints the whole picture.
 
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mathnerd88 said:
I didn't really look at the survey, but did DO's score the same boards as MDs who interviewed? There are also many more MDs than DOs who participated in the match.

Has this discrepancy been normalized? I would expect that more MDs are interviewed than DOs because there are many more MDs who participate in the match than DOs.

Yes, I can see a clear bias, but I don't think it paints the whole picture.
Click to expand...
You can find percentage of MD vs DO students that get their desired residency. Percentages are normalized numbers.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
mathnerd88 said:
I didn't really look at the survey, but did DO's score the same boards as MDs who interviewed?
Click to expand...

This is not at all scientific but from what I have heard, where an MD applicant is looked at with score X, a DO applicant needs to have X+10 to X+15.

To OP- The reason I can only say what I've heard is that unfortunately, every program I've been at has not considered DOs at all. So you would have a shot coming from even a low-tier MD school that you would not have from a DO school.
 
jorjorswens said:
You can find percentage of MD vs DO students that get their desired residency. Percentages are normalized numbers.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
Click to expand...


^^ This.

Regardless of how you may want to justify the bias, just so it makes sense to you, it's very simple and very real.

Is it improving? Absolutely. Improving significantly with each year. But, it's still very very real.
 
mathnerd88 said:
I didn't really look at the survey, but did DO's score the same boards as MDs who interviewed? There are also many more MDs than DOs who participated in the match.

Has this discrepancy been normalized? I would expect that more MDs are interviewed than DOs because there are many more MDs who participate in the match than DOs.

Yes, I can see a clear bias, but I don't think it paints the whole picture.
Click to expand...

One should also look at charting outcomes to get more of an idea as what is happening.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf

When comparing to US seniors, in certain areas (Step I, STEP II, etc.), independent applicants are still matching worse. Again, DOs are independent applicants and thus it is difficult to get a true understanding of where the difficulties lie. However, the interviewing and ranking of DOs (on the PD survey) is a percentage and not sheer numbers. Remember it is a percentage of PDs willing to interview and rank DOs. Could an anti-DO program change its views? Of course, but it takes a lot of work to do so (an one has only so many elective rotations to make an impression). MDs don't have to do the amount of elective rotations to gain a favorable impression to most programs. Just look at some top-tier residency roster, you will see people from HBCs matching into such programs (average MCATs of 26), but never a DO. I am pretty sure there are DO students have the scores to make it past the step I filter.
 
These numbers don't even tell the whole story because many DO applicants know there is a stigma and don't apply to as many competitive residencies. This means that even after self selection, the better DO applicants don't match as well. DO and MD residencies just merged and that is only a good thing for MDs because in the past DOs could apply to both MD and DO residencies but only DO could apply to DO residency. Now the DO safety net is gone and MDs will probably start to take many of the desired DO residencies. You can also see that DO candidates need higher USMLE scores vs MD to get into similar residencies.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
There is something really interesting that I learned from the radiation oncology numbers. I recall that 4 DOs matched into radiation oncology that year and there were around 8 total who matched. So looking at the USMLE step I and overlaying the DOs on the graph. You can assume at least 1 DO matched with a step I of 230-240, which is below average for even US MDs. This person might have made up the difference by doing multiple research projects (maybe a year of research). Surprisingly DOs seem to have more wiggle room than we normally speculate they would in this field. However, YMMV for a lot of specialty (ex. neurosurgery is more willing to interview IMGs than DOs).

The bias is real no doubt, but I believe it is the bias coupled with lack of specialty specific research, a home department, and other factors that really puts the nail in the coffin.
 
IslandStyle808 said:
There is something really interesting that I learned from the radiation oncology numbers. I recall that 4 DOs matched into radiation oncology that year and there were around 8 total who matched. So looking at the USMLE step I and overlaying the DOs on the graph. You can assume at least 1 DO matched with a step I of 230-240, which is below average for even US MDs. This person might have made up the difference by doing multiple research projects (maybe a year of research). Surprisingly DOs seem to have more wiggle room than we normally speculate they would in this field. However, YMMV for a lot of specialty (ex. neurosurgery is more willing to interview IMGs than DOs).

The bias is real no doubt, but I believe it is the bias coupled with lack of specialty specific research, a home department, and other factors that really puts the nail in the coffin.
Click to expand...

^^ This. So Much.

IMO, the key thing to remember is YMMV.
 
Maybe it's early or I just have a problem tracking all of the acronyms, but YMMV?
 
What is YMMV?


YMMV is "Your Mileage May Vary"

One of my grads once told me that he "had to work harder" to get into his ACGME residency. Well, you're not afraid of hard work, are you?

A significant majority of my students match into ACGME, and of those, the majority get into their first three picks, so they must be doing something right.

But CNU over a DO school, even say, BCOM or ACOM? No, just no. CNU vs LUCOM? Improve your app and apply the next year.




AnatomyGrey12 said:
Maybe it's early or I just have a problem tracking all of the acronyms, but YMMV?
Click to expand...
 
We all love an underdog story where DOs match into some competitive ACGME programs, but If I was you I'd want to get a step ahead of the game and go to MD. Trying to make the bias seem like unfair or whatnot will only make DOs sound like little cry babies. Let's just admit that there is a bias, and you have to work twice as hard as your MD counterpart to match to the same program.
 
Goro said:
One of my grads once told me that he "had to work harder" to get into his ACGME residency. Well, you're not afraid of hard work, are you?
Click to expand...

It would be tougher to deliver a baby with one hand behind my back. If I were in some crazy situation where I had to, I could definitely do it. But it'd be dumb to do it for no reason, just to say I could. So. It's a bit disingenuous to equate having a willingness to work hard, with purposely putting yourself at a disadvantage. And that is what anyone choosing DO over US MD is doing. There could well be important reasons to make that choice, but "I'll show @Goro I'm not afraid to work hard!!" isn't one of them.
 
Avoid CNSU. The school has a partnership with a loan company and they are splitting profits. Students are brainwashed and consider this a "good thing" because it keeps overhead costs low. Bull. They hired their entire faculty in 2 months. i have a friend who goes there and they are pretty much learning medicine through Kaplan videos. Most DO schools will have "stronger" match lists than CNSU at least for the first few classes.
 
Yet a decent number of my CA students are choosing to do exactly this.

They know we're a good school, that they'll get a quality education, match well, and get to stay closer to home, instead of going to, say, Wake, Drexel or NYMC. They have the AMCAS stats to go MD, but chose DO.

n =1, and YMMV.

Haven't a clue if a kid from, say, NC or AL has this type of choice to make.

I'd send my own children to our state MD school first, but far away? That I don't know.

22031 Alum said:
It would be tougher to deliver a baby with one hand behind my back. If I were in some crazy situation where I had to, I could definitely do it. But it'd be dumb to do it for no reason, just to say I could. So. It's a bit disingenuous to equate having a willingness to work hard, with purposely putting yourself at a disadvantage. And that is what anyone choosing DO over US MD is doing. There could well be important reasons to make that choice, but "I'll show @Goro I'm not afraid to work hard!!" isn't one of them.
Click to expand...
 
Goro said:
I'd send my own children to our state MD school first, but far away? That I don't know.
Click to expand...

When they are old enough to drink, vote, and die for their country, 😉 I'd hope any decisions regarding their future career get to be their own- and get to be based on things like maximizing future prospects.

I did say there could be some good reasons to choose DO over MD. Shared custody of kids, a kid or family member with significant medical or other needs, a spouse that cannot relocate- all good reasons. In my opinion, the simple inability to conceive of life outside the state where you grew up isn't a good reason. Someone considering making that decision should go in with their eyes wide open.

Edit: I should note that for now I don't recommend applying to CNU at all. But if someone did, and their only MD acceptance was there... I don't know. There is an "LCME school" filter on ERAS. There isn't a "nonprofit" feature.
 
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Who do you think will be paying their tuition!?😕

Actually, neither of my kids has even the remotest interest in anything related to science. The boy is an artistic prodigy, to say the least. If I can only tear him away from Minecraft.


22031 Alum said:
When they are old enough to drink, vote, and die for their country, 😉 I'd hope any decisions regarding their future career get to be their own- and get to be based on things like maximizing future prospects.
Click to expand...
 
Goro said:
Who do you think will be paying their tuition!?😕
Click to expand...

Their loans, I imagine, like all the other adults in their 20s to whom we say "Stop letting your parents make decisions for you!" Remember we aren't talking about them going against your advice and deciding on the BFA in basket weaving. It'd be an MD and the open doors that come with it. You know as well as I do that in medicine, the appropriate career move may come with a change in location.
 
Goro said:
What is YMMV?


YMMV is "Your Mileage May Vary"

One of my grads once told me that he "had to work harder" to get into his ACGME residency. Well, you're not afraid of hard work, are you?

A significant majority of my students match into ACGME, and of those, the majority get into their first three picks, so they must be doing something right.

But CNU over a DO school, even say, BCOM or ACOM? No, just no. CNU vs LUCOM? Improve your app and apply the next year.
Click to expand...
Is there any reason to believe CNU won't match like a typical new MD school? I understand why it's not the first choice of applicants but if it has provisional lcme accreditation is there any reason that it would match worse than a DO school?
 
If what they've done with their preclinical faculty is any guide, clinical education will be problematic.


CleganeBowlis4Real said:
Is there any reason to believe CNU won't match like a typical new MD school? I understand why it's not the first choice of applicants but if it has provisional lcme accreditation is there any reason that it would match worse than a DO school?
Click to expand...
 
Goro said:
If what they've done with their preclinical faculty is any guide, clinical education will be problematic.
Click to expand...

Interesting, should be a good test to see how much anti-DO bias exists in California in 2019.
 
CleganeBowlis4Real said:
Is there any reason to believe CNU won't match like a typical new MD school? I understand why it's not the first choice of applicants but if it has provisional lcme accreditation is there any reason that it would match worse than a DO school?
Click to expand...

They can only ride the coat tails of being an MD school so far. If their clinical rotations are bad and their home clinical departments/school institution are not going to step up to the plate for them during interview season, their matching will suffer.
 
22031 Alum said:
It would be tougher to deliver a baby with one hand behind my back. If I were in some crazy situation where I had to, I could definitely do it. But it'd be dumb to do it for no reason, just to say I could. So. It's a bit disingenuous to equate having a willingness to work hard, with purposely putting yourself at a disadvantage. And that is what anyone choosing DO over US MD is doing. There could well be important reasons to make that choice, but "I'll show @Goro I'm not afraid to work hard!!" isn't one of them.
Click to expand...

Goro isn't saying to go to a DO school over a MD school to "work hard". Goro is saying if your going to a DO school you shouldn't be afraid to work hard and not to complain and bitch about bias. He is fully admitting it exists.
 
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DoctorSynthesis said:
Goro isn't saying to go to a DO school over a MD school to "work hard". Goro is saying if your going to a DO school you shouldn't be afraid to work hard and not to complain and bitch about bias. He is fully admitting it exists.
Click to expand...

Maybe, but I interpreted it as addressing the OP. Who was asking about deciding between two schools. Advice about what to do after deciding isn't relevant yet.
 
DoctorSynthesis said:
Goro isn't saying to go to a DO school over a DO school to "work hard". Goro is saying if your going to a DO school you shouldn't be afraid to work hard and not to complain and bitch about bias. He is fully admitting it exists.
Click to expand...

Goro is states in a latter post about people going to a near DO school over a far away MD school. I believe 22031 Alum is more or less addressing this specific statement. If you have a better opportunity to boost your career by a substantial amount, then one must do as much as possible to seize the opportunity. Of course, what ideally should be done and reality are two different things. For example, if ones spouse cannot move for whatever reason, that just how it is. If they can, do it.
 
22031 Alum said:
Maybe, but I interpreted it as addressing the OP. Who was asking about deciding between two schools. Advice about what to do after deciding isn't relevant yet.
Click to expand...

Goro already said that career opportunities are better at MD and said to go there unless they would be happy or some geographic reason. Goro addressed what school to go to and then separately addressed the notion of DO bias admitting it exists but for those who go to DO school they shouldnt be afraid to work hard. I didn't get the impression Goro was saying to go to a DO school in order to work harder.
 
IslandStyle808 said:
Goro is states in a latter post about people going to a near DO school over a far away MD school. I believe 22031 Alum is more or less addressing this specific statement. If you have a better opportunity to boost your career by a substantial amount, then one must do as much as possible to seize the opportunity. Of course, what ideally should be done and reality are two different things. For example, if ones spouse cannot move for whatever reason, that just how it is. If they can, do it.
Click to expand...

He couldn't be addressing what goro said in a latter post in his earlier post.


Its also debatable whether geographic reasons is a valid choice to go DO over MD. Goro was stating that it happens he wasn't even advocating for it per se
 
DoctorSynthesis said:
He couldn't be addressing what goro said in a latter post in his earlier post.


Its also debatable whether geographic reasons is a valid choice to go DO over MD. Goro was stating that it happens he wasn't even advocating for it per se
Click to expand...

True, but the conversation does go in that direction. If one had to choose the local lower quality MD school in Cali versus far away Harvard, one has to think hard about the future choices. Harvard serves as the greatest launching pad for most specialities. If one wants the safest path, it is best to go to Harvard. If there are personal factors beyond ones control that prevent one from going to Harvard, then it is understandable to go to the local school.
 
IslandStyle808 said:
True, but the conversation does go in that direction. If one had to choose the local lower quality MD school in Cali versus far away Harvard, one has to think hard about the future choices. Harvard serves as the greatest launching pad for most specialities. If one wants the safest path, it is best to go to Harvard. If there are personal factors beyond ones control that prevent one from going to Harvard, then it is understandable to go to the local school.
Click to expand...

Fair discussion to have but my point was that it was made to seem goro was suggesting to go to a DO school so you could "work harder" which isn't what goro is suggesting.
 
As others have said before this isnt simply an issue of "DO just means itll be hard to match into top fields". The QUALITY of the residency program you match into is significantly influenced by MD vs DO. You name essentially any field, youll find a good number of residency programs that dont even consider DOs. Primary care is hardly excluded from this: forget about top tier IM programs, tons of middle tier ones wont even consider DOs as youll hear frequently in these discussions. When people bring this up, inevitably youll often hear how a DO match list in many of those fields looks a lot more similar to a Caribbean match list than a US MD. How much this is true can be debated and Im not the person with the experience to debate it with which is why Im referring to it as others opinion, but it highlights the general message that the clear advantages of a US MD over a DO degree are very evident.

Like 22031 Alum wisely pointed out this isnt an issue of "you arent affraid to work hard" which is a disingenuous pitch to give here. Citing individual anecdotes of people going DO over MD doesnt indicate that it was a) the right choice or much more importantly b) the right choice for you. And it's much more than just an issue of "keeping all doors open" and "keep a top speciality open in case you change your mind later". Rather, the trends dont lie and the overall picture here is MD every time as others have said.
 
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MD.
Doesn't even matter what it is. (Unless it's Carib, then no, go anywhere but there). Those two letters carry a lot of magic weight. You'll only regret it down the line and will always be wondering "What if I went to 'X' MD?"
 
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