Quality of Life vs. Prestige in Psych Residency

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Thank you!

Ok, so there is nothing wrong ever with reporting a SD without referring to a distribution. But to assume it says anything about your percentile position in the class is wrong unless you know how the scores are distributed? If I understand correctly. I didn't mean to sound like a lunatic above with my conspiracy theory about honors, and would still maintain the concern is somewhat valid, because I have heard over and over throughout med school about the 65% rule. It's so ingrained in everyone's thinking. However, I have SEEN our exams, I have taken them, and aside from the nationalized shelf exams, they cannot possibly be normal distributions. There just aren't enough points!

Thanks again.

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Thank you!

Ok, so there is nothing wrong ever with reporting a SD without referring to a distribution. But to assume it says anything about your percentile position in the class is wrong unless you know how the scores are distributed? If I understand correctly. I didn't mean to sound like a lunatic above with my conspiracy theory about honors, and would still maintain the concern is somewhat valid, because I have heard over and over throughout med school about the 65% rule. It's so ingrained in everyone's thinking. However, I have SEEN our exams, I have taken them, and aside from the nationalized shelf exams, they cannot possibly be normal distributions. There just aren't enough points!

Thanks again.

yeah you can always report SD and it will be accurate, but there wont neccesarily be the usual percentiles tied to it unless your distribution is in fact normal
 
Piano Lessons
Guitar Lessons
Tennis Lessons
Reading American classics
Writing my memoir
Quality time with family/friends

I could have all of the above or I could have a psych-centered 4 years.
 
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Ok, back on topic (match is over by now, isn't it?), a big thing to remember is that to some extend medical schools but very much residencies is where you develop connection with peers. If you want to practice in Iowa, NOT going through residence in that general area is inordinately stupid. Local connections are the bread-and-butter of referrals. You get patients sent to you from therapists you worked with because they saw you were good at connection with people, you know who to call to get a kid sent to a temporary residential facility etc.

In psychiatry "ancillary services" is a big deal, and the more comfortable you are with local resources, the better you are off. An East-Coast Ivy League residency is not going to help you the names of the residential group homes in Iowa City or how they are different, after all.
 
I would say that there are both positives and negatives to pursuing psychiatry residency in the locale where you want to practice depending on what kind of training is available at residencies in the area.

If you want to do research and there's limited research opportunity and/or no T32 fellowships available, it makes more sense to train elsewhere to develop your research cred before coming back to your home institution. If you want to do substance abuse, or C/L, or become a psychoanalyst, and there's no training/fellowship available at your home institution, it makes sense to train elsewhere before coming home to roost.

If you want to be a private general psychiatrist or clinical faculty, though, the argument for training where you want to practice is the more convincing one.
 
Piano Lessons
Guitar Lessons
Tennis Lessons
Reading American classics
Writing my memoir
Quality time with family/friends

I could have all of the above or I could have a psych-centered 4 years.

If I'm on an undergrad admissions committee, I pick someone who is great at one of the above (leaving aside the friends part--I'd like everybody to have some social skills and support). I'm looking for stars while accepting the reality that most people aren't.

if I'm on a med school admissions committee, I want people to have done all of the above while also acing their science courses. Can they balance priorities? Are they balanced?

If I'm on an MD/PhD selection committee, I jettison the search for hobbies and look for hard core research experience.

If I'm on a psych residency selection committee, I want people to have done some of the "well rounded" stuff, but I really want to see how they did on psych and medicine and whether there are red flags anywhere. People who overemphasize extracurriculars during med school are rarely standouts at medical school.

And if the resident is on my service, I want them to defer their hobbies until after they complete my rotation. When residents emphasize their fiction reading or international interests or guitar while on my rotation, I'm highly skeptical about their interest in psychiatry--there's too much to learn to be reading Moby Dick at the same time.
 
People who overemphasize extracurriculars during med school are rarely standouts at medical school.

Is it better to standout in medical school or standout in life? I'm aware that in medicine (and in our current American culture), we are defined by our jobs, but aren't we more than that.

Moby Dick is not on my list...some things are just unprofessional. There's an appropriate time and place for book discussions.

Why should we defer the things we enjoy? I'm having a problem with this whole job first thing. Maybe I'm wrong.

There's been so much emphasis in this thread on prestige...what it is...what it gets you...why that matters...when it matters...where it matters...as if quality of life or life ain't that important.
 
Why should we defer the things we enjoy? I'm having a problem with this whole job first thing. Maybe I'm wrong.
:cool:

Edit: Why should we defer the other things we enjoy? I'm having a problem with placing your profession above the other aspects of your life. Maybe I'm wrong.
 
Is it better to standout in medical school or standout in life? I'm aware that in medicine (and in our current American culture), we are defined by our jobs, but aren't we more than that.

Look, forgive me for sounding mean, but how can you stand out in life through endless tennis and guitar lessons? Unless you are REALLY good at tennis. Do you WANT to be a doctor and take care of sick patients? Because if the answer is yes, then the lessons you need are psychiatry lessons. And medicine lessons. And neurology lessons. I would not trust a doctor who claimed to be a "standout at life," by the way.

Also, isn't it a bit early to be penning your memoirs? What's with the slew of memoirs these days from people who haven't even finished grad school? People are supposed to do that in their golden years.

There's been so much emphasis in this thread on prestige...what it is...what it gets you...why that matters...when it matters...where it matters...as if quality of life or life ain't that important.

Well, that was the topic of the thread.

I think there is a difference between "prestige" and quality. There is no excuse for not providing quality care to patients and not seeking out quality education and training for yourself. Sometimes, maybe quite often that correlates with prestige. I don't think it always does. Some people are just slaves to prestige. We had an interesting debate in class recently about doctors eeking papers out of federally funded cancer studies, in which they draw dubious conclusions, where the basic motive is to enhance prestige--the study is over and the new conclusions are suspect, but there are more papers and prestige to be milked, so they keep going for it, while basically generating misleading information. So there you might have low quality and high prestige. But often you have high quality and high prestige. So to me it seems worth debating.
 
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Look, forgive me for sounding mean, but how can you stand out in life through endless tennis and guitar lessons?
The above were simply illustrations and I never stated they'd be all-encompassing. I don't even know how to respond to the rest. You're obviously not questioning music's impact on our culture or even whether it can be therapeutic at all. We'll move on. Whatever your goals in life are (with regards to yourself or your community), should they be pushed aside during residency?

if the answer is yes, then the lessons you need are psychiatry lessons. And medicine lessons. And neurology lessons.
Which will be provided during residency training...correct? or should be equate the ACGME and ABPN to the SEC?

Well, that was the topic of the thread.
My point was that the focus of this thread seemed to be Prestige in Psych Residency. Quality of Life vs. seemed to be overlooked.

There is no excuse for not providing quality care to patients and not seeking out quality education and training for yourself.
All the prestige "talk" seemed to have little to do with patient care...or maybe I misread and should assume that only Top 5 (Best), Top 10 (Better) or Top 20 (Good) programs would provide their residents with the means to provide adequate care. Good luck if you choose otherwise!

Final thought. If we look at quality of life during residency, should one eat, sleep, and excrete psychiatry 24hrs/day. If I work 9A-4P rather than 7A-7P, is my experience subpar? Are my patients suffering?
 
You're obviously not questioning music's impact on our culture or even whether it can be therapeutic at all.

Clearly not. It's totally obvious that I have never thought about that at all. Then again, I don't really come here to do that.

And I thought my posts in this thread/forum/website were off topic....

All the prestige "talk" seemed to have little to do with patient care...or maybe I misread and should assume that only Top 5 (Best), Top 10 (Better) or Top 20 (Good) programs would provide their residents with the means to provide adequate care.

I personally feel that people have offered much more than that on this thread.

Some people love status and some people hate it! Either way ya gotta love the flame wars it inspires!
 
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and as usual...

Excuse me? You are the one who brought up hobbies and music, not me. You got some helpful and useful responses from people, which personally, as a fellow med student I also find extremely helpful, but you responded as if this whole entire thread and any responses you might get are completely beneath you.

Whatever. You are apparently the expert at "life."

By the way, yes, I think your patients will suffer if you CUT 5 HOURS A DAY, every day, out of your work schedule as a resident. How could they not?
 
:cool:

Edit: Why should we defer the other things we enjoy? I'm having a problem with placing your profession above the other aspects of your life. Maybe I'm wrong.

I enjoy my work. I enjoy being good at my work. I take a great deal of satisfaction from being a good psychiatrist and actually enjoy it more than anything else I've done in my life except having a family. My sense of fulfillment in my work and the lessons it's taught me have made me a better husband and father too. Outside of my wife and kids, I would elect to surrender pretty much any aspect of my life before I'd give up being a psychiatrist - there really is nothing else I'd want to do every day.
 
:cool:

Edit: Why should we defer the other things we enjoy? I'm having a problem with placing your profession above the other aspects of your life. Maybe I'm wrong.

Sounds like you've made your choice. Based upon what you've said I would go for a quality of life residency. Just understand that you're making a choice, if what you want is to be a doc out in the community any residency will get you there.

If you have a particular fellowship in mind, an exclusive practice or the goal of being the head of the Menninger clinic, prestige programs offer an advantage.

Just don't kid yourself that you get both. Personally I found that going to a program that pulled more driven co-workers made the work a bit more enjoyable.
 
Is it better to standout in medical school or standout in life? I'm aware that in medicine (and in our current American culture), we are defined by our jobs, but aren't we more than that.

Moby Dick is not on my list...some things are just unprofessional. There's an appropriate time and place for book discussions.

Why should we defer the things we enjoy? I'm having a problem with this whole job first thing. Maybe I'm wrong.

There's been so much emphasis in this thread on prestige...what it is...what it gets you...why that matters...when it matters...where it matters...as if quality of life or life ain't that important.

My earlier comment was meant to be from the perspective of a faculty member: the best med students and residents work hard at their careers; those who aren't especially motivated tend to do less well. I prefer to teach and work with trainees who share my passion for work, which is one reason I work at a place that tends to attract focused, smart people who don't complain (at least to me) about staying at work til 7 or 8. I didn't mean to imply that my place has happier or more self fulfilled or (god forbid) better people, but there is something to be said for surrounding yourself with people who excel at what they do.

If I were writing from the point of view of a spouse or child, I might prefer the trainee to be at a place that has lower expectations and allows him/her to get home by 5:30.
 
I don't get where fellowship comes into all this. Nearly every program I interviewed at had at least a Child fellowship, even the community programs. From what I've seen so far, choosing a quality-of-life friendly specialty doesn't seem to bar doing a fellowship. Since I could do a fellowship at a US NEWS top 10 university program or at a more laid back community hospital program, I remain confused as to if prestige matters.
 
I don't get where fellowship comes into all this. Nearly every program I interviewed at had at least a Child fellowship, even the community programs. From what I've seen so far, choosing a quality-of-life friendly specialty doesn't seem to bar doing a fellowship. Since I could do a fellowship at a US NEWS top 10 university program or at a more laid back community hospital program, I remain confused as to if prestige matters.

It will matter to some of your potential employers and some of your potential patients. For better and for worse, it matters to a lot of people. The fact that this is being discussed as much as it is, indicates it matters to many medical students, residents, fellows and attendings. So, it is conceivable that it will affect your career in some fashion. Generally speaking, those at "less prestigious" programs won't care as much whether you have a brand name to your resume (or in some cases, they'll pretend not to care), so if you're okay with being in "less prestigious" settings (and there's nothing wrong with that!) then go with whichever program suits you best.
 
I realize I didn't explicitly answer the question, which is how prestige would impact fellowship applications, but I thought maybe you were missing the point.

So, to clarify (and this has been alluded to earlier in this long thread, so I'd check it out if not already), if you are coming from an obscure residency program and have no contacts with a particular competitive fellowship program, your odds of matriculating there are poorer. If you are from a well known place, your interviewers will have an idea of what your training was like in residency, so your odds of getting into that competitive fellowship will be better. And it's not just that they'll know what your training was like - - they'll consider you to have had better training overall.

In other words, if an applicant from an obscure program and an applicant from a top tier residency are both applying for a competitive fellowship spot, the latter applicant will likely get the spot, all other things being equal. There are ways to overcome this for sure, but we're talking about similar resumes here. Clearly, an applicant from an obscure program with an outstanding application and interview would outshine the resident who had difficulty graduating from a top tier program.

If you're not overly ambitious and plan to stay in a smaller town in community hospital settings without undertaking leadership roles, a top tier program would be of less benefit to your career. This could also be said for mid-sized towns and state universities, where there will be a few individuals displaying varying degrees of reverse-elitism. This is often by parents who don't want to pay for private colleges for their kids, and perhaps feel guilty about that so feel they need to repeatedly denigrate elite colleges. Or, often, their kids can't get into these colleges. Or, also likely, the parents themselves were rejected from the elite colleges. It's amazing how some of these petty phenomena continue into midlife and beyond. It's good to be aware of all this, however, especially as a psychiatrist.

Personally, I do think that overall, the training programs are better at top tier programs, but yes, a lot of that is because those programs recruit many of the top applicants. In lectures/small groups, half of what you learn depends upon what your colleagues pose as questions and/or how they present articles.

It then comes to the small fish in a big pond v a big fish in a small pond. I for one would rather be where I am the norm, but others might want to feel like they're getting more individualized nurturing.

There are certainly many outliers, since some residents will do better where they get lots of individualized attention or free time to read on their own. This atmosphere probably produces really great and not as great products, since there is a larger individualistic component. But yes, I've certainly met my share of residents at "less prestigious" programs who I think are better psychiatrists than many of my colleagues and in some cases, my attendings.

I do think it's critical to have good, compassionate, reliable psychiatrists helping people out in the community, and I completely respect that career path if you choose it. I also think a lot of state universities rock, and there are many reasons to work at one, including that it may be easier to balance academia with quality of life. Whatever path you choose, just please don't become one of those reverse-elitist types! If you do, I fear you will not understand a good number of your patients. And they will perceive it and resent you. And unless it can be worked out in the therapy sessions, the patients will look for another psychiatrist, and perhaps relay to his/her friends that you aren't getting it.
 
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I also think a lot of state universities rock, and there are many reasons to work at one, including that it may be easier to balance academia with quality of life. Whatever path you choose, just please don't become one of those reverse-elitist types! If you do, I fear you will not understand a good number of your patients.

Ahhh, poor Freud, just a graduate of a lowly state school, U of Vienna. (I know they have good music but I haven't heard if that one rocks or not.) In today's competitive climate, would Freud even get into a "top" residency at all? He'd be an IMG, for sure, so without a stellar Step 1 score and honors in all his clerkships only community programs would even look at him. (And with GOOD scores he'd want to go into Derm anyway). An academic fellowship would certainly be out of the picture! Too bad!
 
This sounds so familiar... Do we have a sister psych doc?

Yes, talk about the poster boy for State Universities! He graduated from a posh high school, attended one of the oldest (and yes, most prestigious) universities in Europe (where the school system is totally different), had extensive research training and worked as a neurologist before the core of his psychiatric endeavors, which were done before it was even a specialty. Not exactly a fair rep, given too many divergent variables, but hey, it's all in good fun. :p
 
Still I'd be concerned about not knowing what his grade was on the medicine shelf. That's probably the best indicator we have of how well he'll do in our program during intern year. I worry that he might be one of those types whose only strength is in psych--I'd really hate to let him in and then have him embarrass us when he's on the medicine team. I'm sure he'll do fine during the neuro months. It is reassuring that he has some publications. So I would rank him in the mid to lower tier. This has really been a competitive year--some of our applicants have honors scores in all their shelf exams!
 
Hmm... Tiring, and not as funny. I really don't like having to take sides regarding prestige. Only did because this string was lop-sided. It still is. There's the fair arguing and the mocking, usually per camp (prestige v quality of life). Oh well. As exciting as NYC can be, I'm looking forward to less attitude and better manners. Enjoy!
 
Hmm... Tiring, and not as funny. I really don't like having to take sides regarding prestige. Only did because this string was lop-sided. It still is. There's the fair arguing and the mocking, usually per camp (prestige v quality of life). Oh well. As exciting as NYC can be, I'm looking forward to less attitude and better manners. Enjoy!

Well of course it's tiring and not very funny. Why would it it be anything other than laborious and dull to go over anyone's application and rank it? And in all seriousness WOULD Freud get into, as they say, a "top" residency program sans high Step 1 score and honors in medicine and psychiatry? No! Of course not! With his non-traditional credentials, I bet he wouldn't even have been given an AAMC registration number.

However I am not coming from one of the camps you mentioned and I wasn't mocking anyone's posts. I'm just underscoring the way things appear to work in medicine, where many positions have to be filled each year, rather quickly. In the non-medical sciences, the best, smartest people are recruited and hand-picked from all over the world to the top PhD programs, based on their doing really exceptional work, some of that through major qualifying exam results and some of it through research. Medicine, for whatever reason, has chosen to rely on things like shelf scores and board scores. That's great--I'm not judging this. It could VERY WELL BE that the single most accurate predictor of how good a doctor a person will go on to become and how great an impact on the field of medicine that person is going to make 20 or 30 years down the road is their Step 1 score and/or their clerkship grades. This is entirely possible. But it would be nice if could be shown conclusively.

Also, I do not think that "good manners" = never questioning the status quo. One question I have is why was every exam I ever took in medical school was multiple choice and graded by a computer? Yet I paid $200,000 more than people who went to PhD programs and had their exams hand read and discussed in detail. How can the multiple choice exam results possibly generate enough data about students' abilities to speculate with near 100% accuracy as to how good of doctors they'll be and what kind of impact they'll make? For programs to call themselves "prestigious," you'd think they'd be continually improving the criteria and the medical school curriculum would be ever changing as a result. (And, perhaps it is.) And the reason I brought up Vienna is that it shows that "prestigious" US programs do not have a monopoly on the term.

EDIT: also I want to add that this sort of petty focus on scores which I was making fun of above is not something I have ever actually witnessed myself, obviously just being a student when would I have. Maybe it's students who write on these boards, or students going into derm/ortho etc who perpetuate the reverence for board scores/shelf scores, but you do get that sense that some people actually believe a high shelf score is going to translate into the next nobel prize. As important as these exams we have ARE, they really are somewhat pedestrian measures of ability, I would think. At the end of the day with these things there's still no guarantee...
 
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Medicine, for whatever reason, has chosen to rely on things like shelf scores and board scores. That's great--I'm not judging this. It could VERY WELL BE that the single most accurate predictor of how good a doctor a person will go on to become and how great an impact on the field of medicine that person is going to make 20 or 30 years down the road is their Step 1 score and/or their clerkship grades. This is entirely possible. But it would be nice if could be shown conclusively.

Research on this topic was done at UNC and it turns out that the "selection process [is] no better than chance at identifying the future top performers."

The UNC study titled "The Relationship Between Psychiatry Residency Applicant Evaluations and Subsequent Residency Performance" can be found here, and begins on page 9.

EDIT: Just did a google search and found that the UNC study was published in the Spring 2005 issue of Academic Psychiatry. The authors have obviously included more information, so you may want to read about the study there.
 
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Research on this topic was done at UNC and it turns out that the "selection process [is] no better than chance at identifying the future top performers."

The UNC study titled "The Relationship Between Psychiatry Residency Applicant Evaluations and Subsequent Residency Performance" can be found here, and begins on page 9.

EDIT: Just did a google search and found that the UNC study was published in the Spring 2005 issue of Academic Psychiatry. The authors have obviously included more information, so you may want to read about the study there.
That's been studied in other fields with similar results. Evidently the research hasn't had much of an impact on anything though...
 
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