Queer Eye for the Dental Guy

[dientesfuertes]

I am not starting this thread to initiate any kind of moral debate or thrust SDN into a holy war, but I wanted to know if there are (m)any gay students in dental schools out there.
I believe there are maybe 2 or 3 "out" students at my school. How about yours? Just curious.

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[Dr.SpongeBobDDS]

dont know of any in my class but one of our coolest instructors is definitely "out" as you say. He's never mentioned it but the plucked eyebrows are a dead giveaway.

 

[Yah-E]

Couple of guys in my class are suspected, but have not been confirmed and/or admitted yet. It's really not a big deal.

 

[dientesfuertes]

Yah-E, I completely agree that it is a non-issue. I am just interested in the sociological aspect of dental school class demographics.
I think it's pretty cool what a wide variety of people and personalities we have in our class, and I just wonder what other classes are like.

 

[Temple2007]

I dont think that when schools are trying to put together diverse classes that they even consider sexual preferences. I could be wrong however?? Kinda off the note but I know a guy who got accepted to like almost half of the dental schools he applied too. He got a 14 on the dat and had around a 2.3 G.P.A. The reason he got accepted is because he is 1/8 or 1/4 Native American. Do you guys think that this is fair? And what if gays were given similar treatment where a certian number of seats were reserved for them?
Just curious how the readers of SDN feel on this subject.

 

[Frank Cavitation]

Natives are more likely to serve in their own underserved communities, thus improving overall public health. It has not been proven that gays shun hetero dentists and need increased attention with regards to dental health, so for now there are no indications for setting aside seats at school.

 

[Biogirl361]

I think grades and dat scores should be all that is considered when granting admission. Everyone should be considered equally, they shouldn't even ask for race on applications. not fair when someone who tried hard and did great in college and did sweet on the dat won't get a spot b/c someone with a 14 got in because they were 1/8 native american. just my .02, i am sure we could debate for hours about that topic

 

[fairbrother]

I think grades and dat scores should be all that is considered when granting admission. Everyone should be considered equally, they shouldn't even ask for race on applications. not fair when someone who tried hard and did great in college and did sweet on the dat won't get a spot b/c someone with a 14 got in because they were 1/8 native american. just my .02, i am sure we could debate for hours about that topic

Hey Biogirl I know how you feel and what you saying. But it is not the right thing to do. I am not a minority but I know some who are minority. It is easy for people like me and you to say that everybody should be considered equally when they didn't have equal opportunity from the begining and during their lifetime. It is easy for someone to grow fully and better when they are born in majority and get full benefit of the community. It is not the same for minority. Sometimes they feel isolated and the reason for that is when they are only about 1 percent of the total population and they are already behind in the community. We have to realize that it is about the community as a whole that prospers. We all know that contry like US has prospered through diversity. Take India and china as an example. They have more talent than probably other countries but they have failed to utilize their own talent in their own community while other communities around the world takes full advantage of it. When the community is not strong the personal talent don't mean thing. I know some smartest people from India and they had no job for 3 years in India but after companies in US sponsered them they have grown a lot. The company that I work for we ahve one Indian vice president and he is brought from India. Now people will argue that we should be giving job to US citizens first then other people but they ahve to realize that may be this one talent they bring into this community may open 100 more jobs. So what I am trying to say is diversity is a key to success. If you think about that then may be 50 percent of the dental/medical schools will be filled with asians in near future but it may not be a good thing and this is coming from one asian. Well only time will tell. Also I am not being racist here but saying that chances should be given to minorities bcz it is good for health of our community.

 

[Biogirl361]

I would still rather have the guy with the 3.7 and 21 on the dat working on my teeth, no matter what they looked like. also, being a minority doesn't make you underpriveleged, i know plenty of minorities with the same money and opportunities and you and i, and plenty of poorer white people. It is about how you grew up, not your race, and besides if you are only 1/8 something chances are you don't look that much like a minority and wouldn't find it hard to fit in with the community throughout your lifetime. I guess I wouldn't mind as much if they gave a little preferential admission to people based on a low family income or something like that. i am all about helping people that aren't as fortunate as me. i just don't think the race thing evens the playing field like it is supposed to, but rather makes it more uneven quite a bit of the time.

 

[fairbrother]

hey biogirl, I agree with what you said in your last post. I do agree that if you grew up in upperclass family and your family is educated then preference should not be given to them bcz of their race. When I said minority I actually meant minority students like they are the first ones in their family to go to school and are Native american or Hispanics and such. I am asian and I am no minority in US as far as schools are concerned but I may be unique example. My parents never went to school and they thought school was not important untill I was in 8th grade. people raised in familes like that get discouraged from the education. Yes we did have many well educated relatives in my family but they are not the reason i decided to do the best I can In school and for my family. All I am saying that preference should NOT be given to me if I am standing next to Hispanic applicant with the same stat and may be similar background becasue community needs that hispanic dentist than they need me. This is my view in this situation. May be I am wrong but thats how i feel. I have no intetion of arguing over this topic. May be we both are right.

 

[no-see-um]

The argument for acceping minimally qualified Native Americans for jobs has to deal with something other than affirmative action. In the United States, there are Indian Preference laws. These laws are in place to ensure that Native American communities can become self-sufficient. If you think about it in context, we stole their land from them and put them on Reservations- aside from our metropolis's. These Indian Nations are just that- Nations with sovereignty and a fiduciary relationship with the Federal Government. Native Americans, of all groups of peoples, are mentioned in the Constitution twice for this very reason. I don't think there's anything wrong with giving Native Americans spots in dental schools, or anywhere else for that matter. They're not the ones taking your spots. If you look at it from another perspective, we are taking their spots.

Isn't this thread about gays in dentistry? How did Native Americans come into this discussion?

 

[aphistis]

I dont think that when schools are trying to put together diverse classes that they even consider sexual preferences. I could be wrong however?? Kinda off the note but I know a guy who got accepted to like almost half of the dental schools he applied too. He got a 14 on the dat and had around a 2.3 G.P.A. The reason he got accepted is because he is 1/8 or 1/4 Native American. Do you guys think that this is fair? And what if gays were given similar treatment where a certian number of seats were reserved for them?
Just curious how the readers of SDN feel on this subject.

Do you have any confirmation that his race is the reason he got in? It's a convenient scapegoat, but only if there's something to corroborate it.

 

[dientesfuertes]

Isn't this thread about gays in dentistry? How did Native Americans come into this discussion?

I was wondering that myself, FruitFly. Thanks for participating anyway!

 

[Dr.SpongeBobDDS]

Yeah, all my super-genius friends can't get in school cause of all the gay Indians.

 

[Calculus1]

Do you have any confirmation that his race is the reason he got in? It's a convenient scapegoat, but only if there's something to corroborate it.

That's the problem with having race as a factor when determining who gets in and who doesn't. It cheapens the degree for those minorities who's stats were legit.

 

[loo]

Hmmm. If I were gay, I don't think I would be "out" because it seems that dentistry attracts some pretty conservative thinkers out there...wouldn't want to deal with the backlash. Don't flame me--it's just my opinion.

It's also my opinion that the profession would be better served by having more diverse applicants...homosexuals included. Personally, I don't give a da*n what you do outside work as long as you are a competant, caring dentist.

 

[Temple2007]

Hmmm. If I were gay, I don't think I would be "out" because it seems that dentistry attracts some pretty conservative thinkers out there...wouldn't want to deal with the backlash. Don't flame me--it's just my opinion.

It's also my opinion that the profession would be better served by having more diverse applicants...homosexuals included. Personally, I don't give a da*n what you do outside work as long as you are a competant, caring dentist.

So when you say that the profession would be better served by having diverse applicants...homosexuals included. Are you saying that there should be a certian amount of seats in each dental class reserved for gays? Do you think that sexual prefference should be included in Affirmative Action? Just curious as too how you would prove you were gay...Race is a no brainer... but homo versus hetero...

 

[loo]

So when you say that the profession would be better served by having diverse applicants...homosexuals included. Are you saying that there should be a certian amount of seats in each dental class reserved for gays? Do you think that sexual prefference should be included in Affirmative Action? Just curious as too how you would prove you were gay...Race is a no brainer... but homo versus hetero...

No, I did not say that a certain amount of seats should be reserved for gays, etc. No, I do not think sexual preference should be included in AA. Calm down and read the post again. I merely offered an opinion. Please don't read into it.

 

[dientesfuertes]

Do y'all think that, in general, homosexual dentists would be avoided by patients? For example, do you think people would have the mentality of, "It's okay for my hairdresser/interior decorator/etc to be gay, but not my dentist." ??

 

[Biogirl361]

probably depends on how obvious it is, sometimes you can't even tell someone is gay. as with basically anything about a person there are going to be some people that will stay away from them as a dentist, but as long as they are a good clinician and all that i doubt if it would be too big a deal.

 

[Serge718]

I don't understand what the problem is with selecting people based on:

1) Stats
2) Socioeconomic background

Race/Sex/Sexual Prefference should not even be concidered IMO.

 

[loo]

Do y'all think that, in general, homosexual dentists would be avoided by patients? For example, do you think people would have the mentality of, "It's okay for my hairdresser/interior decorator/etc to be gay, but not my dentist." ??

I don't think so. There was a lot of controversy in the past when David Acer, the Florida dentist who infected a patient with HIV, was found to be gay. Was it his orientation that caused his patient to contract HIV? No. It was his lack of sterilization that allowed the virus to be transmitted. Of course, this was completely, totally negligent and unprofessional.

My point is this. I would hope that people would judge a person based on their skill, compassion, and integrity. Not their orientation. I found out my dentist was gay quite by accident. I used to tell gay jokes in front of him. What an a-hole I was.I admit that my attitude towards homosexuals in the past was quite poor. I have since learned never to judge someone before knowing them. BTW, he's a great guy with two kids.

 

[Temple2007]

I don't understand what the problem is with selecting people based on:

1) Stats
2) Socioeconomic background

Race/Sex/Sexual Prefference should not even be concidered IMO.

My thoughts exactly..

 

[loo]

Serge 718 and Temple2007:

What criteria would you use to choose applicants based on "socioeconomic backround"?

 

[Typo]

dont know of any in my class but one of our coolest instructors is definitely "out" as you say. He's never mentioned it but the plucked eyebrows are a dead giveaway.

Hey now . . . some of use have wives that encourage (read: FORCE) us to pluck.

 

[Biogirl361]

serge and temple, i agree completely

 

[Temple2007]

Serge 718 and Temple2007:

What criteria would you use to choose applicants based on "socioeconomic backround"?

Lower income families and students coming from families with less higher education should be given preference for professional school. If you took a person who grow in less the ideal situations in a rough neighbor hood. He got into college and struggled to get passing grades. While in school he held a job to try and support himself. He could be white, black, purple, or whatever. Then you take another student who lets say for the sake of argument is a minority coming from a wealthy family. His parents paid for his schooling and cost of living. He had tutors etc..etc.. What is fair? If they both get similar grades who would get in? The poverty cycle is a hard thing to get out of since you have to compete with students who have more resources. I guess if you just looked at socieconmics you would see that there are more minorites per capita who would be in the low income bracket. So they would qualify for the seats as well as caucasians or whoever meets the socioecomic requirements. I think this approach addresses the problems better of innercity problems and low income cycles than just going off race or sex

 

[loo]

Still Confused.
1. Lower income families and students coming from families with less higher education should be given preference...What is your definition of "lower income" and what would be the cutoff number? Why should I be given/not given preference based on my parents' education? Shouldn't it be based on my education?

2.What constitutes a "rough neighborhood"? If I move with my kids to a designated "rough neighborhood", will my kids get preference for admission? You might have something here--new urban homesteading.

3.I wholeheartedly AGREE with you that there is unfairness in the application game. The truth is, acceptance has a lot to do with luck as it does with grades,etc. so using the poverty cycle argument is insulting to those folks who worked hard to make it despite their economic situation.

Kind regards, loo

 

[loo]

serge and temple, i agree completely

Captain Obvious with a newsflash:

We are NOT talking about admissions based on sexual orientation.

 

[Serge718]

Still Confused.
1. Lower income families and students coming from families with less higher education should be given preference...What is your definition of "lower income" and what would be the cutoff number? Why should I be given/not given preference based on my parents' education? Shouldn't it be based on my education?

2.What constitutes a "rough neighborhood"? If I move with my kids to a designated "rough neighborhood", will my kids get preference for admission? You might have something here--new urban homesteading.

3.I wholeheartedly AGREE with you that there is unfairness in the application game. The truth is, acceptance has a lot to do with luck as it does with grades,etc. so using the poverty cycle argument is insulting to those folks who worked hard to make it despite their economic situation.

Kind regards, loo

All definitions can be bent. What is a definition of a miniority? If you are 1/8 native american or whatever does that make you a minority?

Look a family's economic status can be determined by looking at their family income. So if you are rich and move to a poverty stricken area, that still means nothing because you are not financially burdened.

Beside what if you are a minority who comes from a rich family who has tried to provide for you the best education possible and you still screwed up and you don't qualify, then why should you still be admitted into dental school just because you are a minority? In this case your race was not the problem, you were the problem.

JMO race should not be an issue.

 

[loo]

*loo banging head against the wall*

 

[Biogirl361]

newsflash: i was not referring to sexual orientation, but to their comments that race should not be a consideration although family income possibly should be.

 

[datu]

Lower income families and students coming from families with less higher education should be given preference for professional school. If you took a person who grow in less the ideal situations in a rough neighbor hood. He got into college and struggled to get passing grades. While in school he held a job to try and support himself. He could be white, black, purple, or whatever. Then you take another student who lets say for the sake of argument is a minority coming from a wealthy family. His parents paid for his schooling and cost of living. He had tutors etc..etc.. What is fair? If they both get similar grades who would get in?

If both of them show similar potential, then both should be accepted. And believe me, there's a lot to gauge potential by aside from marks alone. That's why I'm so in favour of standardised exams and interviews.

And then you have to ask yourself, what about the kid from the "wealthy family" (both parents are white-collar working two or three jobs, the kid may even have a job himself) where the folks didn't go to the most prestigious schools, if at all. Yeah, the kid may be a little spoiled, but he knows the value of hard work and respect. He was a bit of a procrastinator (things are easier said than done), but he still earned high marks, perhaps not straight-As, but nearly so, with a smattering of Bs and maybe an odd C. When he puts the time in, his work shows an exquisite mastery of understanding and skill.

At first glance, he's not all that different from the neighbour's kid, who happens to be wealthy-by-inheritance Kennedy-style, knows and expects that ma 'n' pa will be there at his every beck and call, does drugs, parties way too much, but pulls in straight-As cos he knows how to cheat?

And then you have the kid from the same sort of SEC, professional parents, kid's a damn robot with a photographic memory. He makes straight-As (maybe a stray B--s*** happens), and his work meets all the requirements, but there's a certain mechanical quality about it that belies his personality.

Based on the marks, who is granted the interview? And then you throw in the kid with low SEC (and there are all kinds of people to be found in that category too), which two are granted the interview? Do any of them even show any aptitude for a given profession?

There are so many variables to consider, one could just go on endlessly. You start making all these little dichotomies of who has it better than the other, and you're bound to shaft someone in the process. In a perfect world...well...why even bother since it ain't ever gonna be perfect anyway? You do your best and get on with it.

 

[loo]

I apologize, Biogirl.
Your weren't specific in your post.

I was bad. *loo slapping hand* Bad, loo, bad.

BTW, how "obvious" does a homosexual healthcare provider have to be before someone chooses not to go to them? I'm curious.

 

[loo]

There are so many variables to consider, one could just go on endlessly. You start making all these little dichotomies of who has it better than the other, and you're bound to shaft someone in the process. In a perfect world...well...why even bother since it ain't ever gonna be perfect anyway? You do your best and get on with it.

Ditto. You say tomayto, I say tomahto...let's call the whole thing flawed!

Sorry dientes, I hijacked the original thread. I'm trying to work it back, though!

 

[datu]

I apologize, Biogirl.
Your weren't specific in your post.

I was bad. *loo slapping hand* Bad, loo, bad.

BTW, how "obvious" does a homosexual healthcare provider have to be before someone chooses not to go to them? I'm curious.

If they acted according to accepted professional decorum, it wouldn't be obvious. I mean, would a lady go to a straight male dentist if he was looking her up and down?

Would a man go to a straight lady dentist if she started touching him inappropriately? Well, this latter instance is debatable, but you get the idea.

 

[loo]

Agree with you there. I was referring to BioGirl's earlier post and what her opinion was. All opinions are welcome.

 

[Biogirl361]

by obvious i just meant that with some people you can't even tell that they are gay, while with others you can, and if people were able to tell that the Dr. was gay then there are inevitably going to be some people that are going to be uncomfortable being around him. It isn't just about being gay though. people choose not to see certain doctors for any number of reasons. so i guess my bottom line with that post was that as long as their clinical and personal skills are good i doubt if their practice would suffer much, unless you can tell that they are gay to the point that it makes lots of people uncomfortable.
Let's just make admission based solely on the DAT. seems to me everyone has an equal opportunity to study and do well on that. and no, i didn't get a 30 on it....

 

[POOonYOU]

i'm a second yr. dental student, and i am gay. i'm very masculine and people are surprised when i tell them that i am gay. if patients are too scared to come to me b/c of my sexual orientation, then phuck them. yeah, it would probably hurt me a little bit, but i'll get over it. i wouldn't want to help someone like that anyways. i don't plan on being open to my patients b/c that is business of my own. if they ask, then i'll tell.

 

[datu]

(snip) i don't plan on being open to my patients b/c that is business of my own. if they ask, then i'll tell.

Amen. That's what I mean by conducting yourself to accepted standards of professional decorum.

 

[datu]

(snip)
Let's just make admission based solely on the DAT. seems to me everyone has an equal opportunity to study and do well on that. and no, i didn't get a 30 on it....

I wish! If that were the case, I'd have had a much broader base of dental schools to choose from. But then you have the camp that says the DAT only measures, as one admissions representative put it, "a point-in-time competency as opposed to the GPA, which is indicative of a day-to-day competency. Some people are just good test-takers."

Fiddle-faddle, I say. Then why bother with the DAT in the first place?

 

[dientesfuertes]

Sorry dientes, I hijacked the original thread. I'm trying to work it back, though!

You're the best, loo! It's become an interesting thread, at least.

 

[loo]

unless you can tell that they are gay to the point that it makes lots of people uncomfortable.
:

BioGirl--you just gave me the most interesting visual! OK, so if you go to a new dentist and he:
1. Acts really "not masculine" or "flame-y" around you
or
2. Plucks his eyebrows (joke)
or
3. Dresses in peach scrubs
or
4. Says during your consultation, "Oh, I know what you mean, honey/girlfriend"
Does that make you uncomfortable?
I'm not making fun of you and I totally agree with your post, but that quote makes me laugh!

 

[loo]

if patients are too scared to come to me b/c of my sexual orientation, then phuck them.

Dentistry is cool, because(in a lot of ways) you have the opportunity to pick who you treat.

 

[datu]

BioGirl--you just gave me the most interesting visual! OK, so if you go to a new dentist and he:
1. Acts really "not masculine" or "flame-y" around you
or
2. Plucks his eyebrows (joke)
or
3. Dresses in peach scrubs
or
4. Says during your consultation, "Oh, I know what you mean, honey/girlfriend"
Does that make you uncomfortable?
I'm not making fun of you and I totally agree with your post, but that quote makes me laugh!

Not to butt in on the conversation, but I think the above would make anyone uncomfortable.

 

[gryffindor]

When a patient comes in clutching their jaw from the unbearable pain their decayed and abscessed tooth is giving them, I'd bet lots of money he/she will not care at all who comes in to pull the tooth, as long as the person wielding the forceps has a clue on how to use them.

Some of these patients I've seen will do anything to get the tooth out. Ordinarily, these same patients would probably put up a big stink if they knew I was a dental student and not a full blown DDS, but they don't ever bother to question me when I come in and say the magic words - "Looks like you need a tooth on the right side taken out today."

I can't see these patients refusing to see the dentist b/c of his race/ethnicity/orientation and instead choose to sit around in excruciating pain until a dentist more suited to the patient's biases comes around.

 

[datu]

(snip) I can't see these patients [in excruciating pain] refusing to see the dentist b/c of his race/ethnicity/orientation and instead choose to sit around in excruciating pain until a dentist more suited to the patient's biases comes around.

You'd be surprised by some people. For some, it's an absolute aversion to seeing any sort of dentist, period; they'll happily (or not so happily, depending on how you look at it) forego treatment and live with the pain for months, sometimes even years.

Can't imagine that it'd be terribly different for someone with very deep-seated sentiments regarding the matter currently being discussed.

As a healthcare practitioner, it's inappropriate for me to tell such a patient to f*** off. Granted, these things may agitate my own deep-seated sentiments regarding whatever I am, but as a professional, my place isn't to moralise to them. If I can't convince the patient to allow me to administer care, then I would refer the case to someone he/she would be more comfortable seeing (if in the unlikely event that patient actually tells me why he doesn't want me working on him). So the outcome would be more like "Take care, sir, have a great day." and move on to the next patient.

People are funny creatures.

 

[rsawpo]

(snip) people choose not to see certain doctors for any number of reasons. so i guess my bottom line with that post was that as long as their clinical and personal skills are good i doubt if their practice would suffer much, unless you can tell that they are gay to the point that it makes lots of people uncomfortable.

I don't think that being a gay doctor would bother me, since I accept people as who they are as long as their negative aspects of character don't bother me (nobody's perfect). It would be more of personality that I would face in a gay person, and as long as he does not "dramatize" things, there should be absolutely no reason why I should feel uncomfortable. People talk about differences that are in gay people, but all of us have differences, and if some one (lets say woman) feels more uncomfortable with gay doc than straight doc, then it's just plain homophobia. If you have a reason to not go to a gay doc because may be this particular doc is "drama queen" (I had several gay friends and i know how dramatic it can be) - then it is a different story. As far as me, i can't stand even girls who are drama queens,, so it's just character intolerance - but please let's not stereotype everyone to some criteria just because they are gay.

Another point i wanted to make is that, one who's gay might draw people of the same orientation towards their practice(and believe me there are many areas in different cities that have high gay population - e.g. Dupont Circle in DC, just count # of gay clubs there) - just like one who speaks Spanish will more likely draw a patient who speaks Spanish. there are many examples as such, and people of certain background would look for somebody of similar background, cause we all will feel safer with them, even though they could be just as the doc next door - human g*d da*m nature. One final example - a personal one - My background is Russian, and I have found myself when looking for eye doctor stumbling upon a doc with a russian last name - guess who i called for my appointment? That exact doctor because he is representing my background, a country where i grew up and have memories of - It's all natural.
There are so many things to this, and yea it would be nice to give representation to each criteria of difference - but it's won't happen-period. There is always will be one criteria that was left out and inequality will persist. I don't blame life for putting me at hard economic life, and then throwing me into world of USA with just one year to study english and SAT's - the most important thing was that I fought and made connections and made it ON MY OWN, without being minority or looked as underrepresented or with low SEC - I think the only thing that i have to give credits to is my parents, who taught me about the importance of education and strength. So I consider the unfortunate people to be those who's family is messed up in one way or the other. But then again, that does not mean that addmisions should keep a spot for them.

 

[dientesfuertes]

So no one else can comment on the prevalence (perceived or actual) of gays/lesbians in dental schools or dental practice?
Again, I'm not trying to single anyone out...just curious what other locations in the country are like with respect to this.

 

[texas_dds]

i have a guy in my class, obviously gay but he doesn't quite know it yet - but he is applying for pedo. i am afraid that a lot of conservative texas parents will be avoiding him and i keep encouraging him to practise somewhere else. i mean he is FLAMING - i love him to death but im afraid he is going to have trouble here, as sad as that is!