Question about academic record

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razortoy

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I am curious about something. I took about a half semester of classes right out of high school and ended up withdrawing to join the military but it was after the withdraw time.

That was 17 years ago. I was wondering if it is acceptable to just completely ignore that and go with more current classes, etc for GPA purposes. I got into a CC in California and was told that it wasn't worth mentioning but I don't want it to come back and haunt me in a couple of years when I apply to med schools.

Anyone have any experience or apocryphal stories relating to this?

Thanks!
 
razortoy said:
I am curious about something. I took about a half semester of classes right out of high school and ended up withdrawing to join the military but it was after the withdraw time.

That was 17 years ago. I was wondering if it is acceptable to just completely ignore that and go with more current classes, etc for GPA purposes. I got into a CC in California and was told that it wasn't worth mentioning but I don't want it to come back and haunt me in a couple of years when I apply to med schools.

Anyone have any experience or apocryphal stories relating to this?

Thanks!
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Are you talking about not mentioning it in your PS, or not mentioning it on AMCAS at all? I think it's fine to not mention it in your PS. It was a long time ago, and presumably you will have a better, more recent GPA and a BS to show for yourself now. If an interviewer cares, he or she will ask you about it at the interview. But FYI, you *must* report all post-secondary coursework on your AMCAS, even courses taken right out of high school at the wrong time, and even courses taken at a community college. Do not fail to report these grades to AMCAS, as a skeleton like that in your closet can result in you losing a med school acceptance (or worse) if that info ever sees the light of day in the future.
 
I had to report craptacular teenage-itis infected grades from over 20 years ago when I applied. It hurt. It hurt a lot. But I still had to do it. ALL college level courses must be reported, whether failed, not attended and failed, withdrawn from, etc. ALL. 🙁
 
razortoy said:
I am curious about something. I took about a half semester of classes right out of high school and ended up withdrawing to join the military but it was after the withdraw time.

That was 17 years ago. I was wondering if it is acceptable to just completely ignore that and go with more current classes, etc for GPA purposes. I got into a CC in California and was told that it wasn't worth mentioning but I don't want it to come back and haunt me in a couple of years when I apply to med schools.

Anyone have any experience or apocryphal stories relating to this?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

You are required to submit transcript for every course that you took post high school. If you attended those classes, they need to be reported. A smart strategy would be to request that transcript and see how the grades are recorded. The best case would be that they are all Ws but my guess is that they are likely to be "Fs".

You can't pick and choose the coursework to be listed on AMCAS. In today's climate of competitive applicants, I am surprised at what the AMCAS computers can unearth in terms of unreported coursework. As soon as you leave something out unintentional or intentional, you can seriously tank your chances of acceptance.

Get every transcript and list your coursework according to what is on the transcript. The more time between you now and your previous coursework, the better but it still has to be listed.
 
As the other posters have stated, you need to report your grades. There is not much you can do about it but move on ahead. It may create more challenges getting into an allopathic school, but if you retake those classes, osteopathic schools may be a better option. (osteopathic schools are a little more nontrad friendly).

I think your problem is not unique at all among nontraditional students. There are many of us that didn't take school as seriously when we first got out of HS. Hind sight is 20/20, but unfortunately it is the past and we can't just delete it because it is going to look yucky on our transcripts. The best option is to face forward...fix (i.e. retake classes) what you can, and build a good transcript from now onwards.

Best of :luck:
 
Yeah that is kind of what I was thinking - just sucks cause I have a really good recent GPA (3.8)
 
you should contact your old school and see if you can petition for a retroactive withdrawal. If you can show documentation and spin a sympathetic story you might be able to get them to change them to W's at least.
 
nontradfogie said:
you should contact your old school and see if you can petition for a retroactive withdrawal.
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Would schools even consider doing this? I thought they protected academic records like sacred artifacts or something.

On a related note, does anyone know how much W's hurt? I got one 8 yrs ago at a time when I was more interested in sex than alkene nomencalture and pKa values (wtf was I thinking right?).
 
Yeah, I guess it is fair to those people who didn't slack like I did - it would kind of be uncool if their hard work didn't matter. I'll just take my lumps and hope to wow them in an interview.

Thanks again.
 
combatwombat said:
On a related note, does anyone know how much W's hurt?
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W's shouldn't hurt you at all, since AMCAS excludes them from your GPA (as they should--after all, you didn't get a grade in the class). That being said, if you had a whole lot of them (for example, withdrawing from ALL your classes in a given semester), med schools would probably expect an explanation. But a single W shouldn't do you any harm.
 
Yes in some cases you can have old F grades changed to W. In my case, and for most schools, you have to petition the dean of admissions for appeal within 3 years. It requires an excellent sob story with a couple pieces of official supporting documentation (government documents, medical, official letterhead etc.). All the above then goes to a panel of deans for them to judge whether you deserve it or not.
 
Hey guys...

I'm in a similar situation as OP. I have no good excuse for my poor performance other than the fact that I was 17 and chasing boys. Silly, I know.

So, two things:

I know I have to report those grades, but really, why? Does anybody know how Amcas might hypothetically unearth those grades? I basically left that community college never to return, and started over completely at another cc years later, got a 4.0, and went on to be an Honors student at a university. My current transcript only shows transfer from the second cc to the U. No mention of the first go-round. I never recieved financial aid at that school. How would they find out??

If I wanted to petition for retroactive withdraw, without a good excuse,is there any good angle? This was years ago, when I had no health insurance or any good reason for screwing around like I did. Would the dean just laugh at me for trying to change those marks?
 
JessicaMorsell said:
Hey guys...
... My current transcript only shows transfer from the second cc to the U. No mention of the first go-round. ... How would they find out??

... Would the dean just laugh at me for trying to change those marks?
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Oh, they could find out, all right. All they need to do is run a computer search on you at the first institution. (The release you sign when you submit your application gives them the right to do that.) If they find those grades and you haven't reported them, you're dead. Not only will your GPA go down, but you'd be guilty of misrepresentation on your app, which is seen as a very serious thing. That would destroy any chance you might have had to get into med school.

As to the withdrawal petition, yeah, they might laugh, but you might as well give it a shot--you have nothing to lose. But, as you say, it will probably be denied. In that case, you'll be stuck with the GPA that will result from inclusion of those F's. If it's below a 3.0, you either have to take more classes to bring it up, apply to DO school (more forgiving of low GPA), or forget the whole thing.
 
The more serious, and frankly appalling, aspect of this discussion:

You are desirous of entering a profession which is considered rather above reproach. Physicians are supposed to make ethical decisions every day, and patients rather.. um.. frown on you making bad ones (not to mention the board of medical ethics/examiners which would just love to grill you whilst you are standing uncomfortably in front of their table wondering if they will take away your license to practice medicine). And yet here you are, trying to make arguments to LIE on an application where you swear everything contained therein is the complete truth with no omissions.

If you just want to deceive, withhold information, put yourself in the best light possible and flat out lie about the bad parts, it seems to me you ought to go to law school instead. (no offense to lawyers - they get paid to do this for their clients.)
 
ShyRem said:
The more serious, and frankly appalling, aspect of this discussion:

You are desirous of entering a profession which is considered rather above reproach. Physicians are supposed to make ethical decisions every day, and patients rather.. um.. frown on you making bad ones (not to mention the board of medical ethics/examiners which would just love to grill you whilst you are standing uncomfortably in front of their table wondering if they will take away your license to practice medicine). And yet here you are, trying to make arguments to LIE on an application where you swear everything contained therein is the complete truth with no omissions.

If you just want to deceive, withhold information, put yourself in the best light possible and flat out lie about the bad parts, it seems to me you ought to go to law school instead. (no offense to lawyers - they get paid to do this for their clients.)
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It was also my understanding that doctors should be people-friendly and tactful. If you read the first sentence of that discussion, you will see that I acknowledged the fact that I do, in fact, have to report those grades.

Before you jump the gun on the high and mighty, you might consider the fact that I was curious about the mysteries of how Amcas functions. Who said I was willing to lie? I'm simply looking for a way to make this better. I think it's a bit scary how they can dig like the CIA...makes you wonder. Thanks.

I am curious how many cut-throats premed have done worse than wondering about improving their apps...I'm certain physicians can also be some of the dirtiest, most disloyal, skillful cheaters on the planet. Thanks for your encouragement, I suppose?
 
student1799 said:
Oh, they could find out, all right. All they need to do is run a computer search on you at the first institution. (The release you sign when you submit your application gives them the right to do that.) If they find those grades and you haven't reported them, you're dead. Not only will your GPA go down, but you'd be guilty of misrepresentation on your app, which is seen as a very serious thing. That would destroy any chance you might have had to get into med school.

As to the withdrawal petition, yeah, they might laugh, but you might as well give it a shot--you have nothing to lose. But, as you say, it will probably be denied. In that case, you'll be stuck with the GPA that will result from inclusion of those F's. If it's below a 3.0, you either have to take more classes to bring it up, apply to DO school (more forgiving of low GPA), or forget the whole thing.
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How would they know to run the first institute, though? This is worse than the military!
 
Thanks, Food. Like I said, I don't have the balls to do that. Any adcom could easily be reading this and see my name and know to keep an eye out for me, since, you know, I'm a big fat liar. But I will certainly let you know when I'm cutting cadavers. 😀 Do you really think they will show mercy to a nontrad with instant dramatic improvement? I'm carrying a 4.0, yay me...have heard that they want to see an upward trend after epic screw-ups, but I'm just so...terrified.

My stepdad was a Navy guy, and managed to get a security clearance as an ex-con. Go figure.
 
ShyRem said:
If you just want to deceive, withhold information, put yourself in the best light possible and flat out lie about the bad parts, it seems to me you ought to go to law school instead. (no offense to lawyers - they get paid to do this for their clients.)
Click to expand...

You are perpetuating an absurdly false stereotype about lawyers here. These stereotypes were derived back in the day of Shakespeare, and were questionably true even then. Lawyers absolutely do not "get paid to lie for their clients". It is unethical to lie in court or under oath or to opposing counsel, and a lawyer who does or counsels this can and often will be disbarred, suspended or fined. You actually cannot lie as a lawyer as freely as you can as, say, a doctor or other professional. There are seriously enforced ethical canons and professional rules limiting this kind of action. And as a lawyer you are far more sensitive to the "rules" because troubleshooting is your stock and trade. I'm afraid you are buying into a hollywood portrayal (think "Liar Liar") of lawyers that simply isn't the norm. It's about as true of lawyers as the daily sexcapades of Grey's Anatomy are true for most doctors.

Lawyers do present their client in the best light supported by the facts, but you do that in any field. And in terms of criminal law (which constitutes a VERY SMALL percentage of lawyers and is not representative of most), lawyers generally don't want to hear from the client whether he was guilty or innocent, because, given that they are not allowed to present that which they know is a lie, it is usually better off not knowing if the client did what he is accused of. Once you know he is going to lie, you aren't allowed to let him testify. So yeah, in that small segment of lawyering, you intentionally stay ignorant of the truth specifically so you cannot lie about it. But otherwise no lawyer in his right mind would ever knowingly lie to a judge, jury or in communication with other lawyers, because you totally can lose your license for that. Please check these stereotypes at the door unless you also are willing to welcome all the false but unflattering stereotypes folks have against doctors and other professionals.

Bottom line, the ethical rules governing lawyers are far more elaborate and more specific than for any other profession. You can't talk of doctors having ethical obligations and then say lawyers are unethical in the next breath. Lawyers actually have rules that they have given teeth, doctors don't. Lawyers regularly and frequently suspend, disbar and sanction their own for stepping across the line, physicians pretty rarely do. So far more lawyers stay on the straight and narrow than doctors as a consequence. If you are looking for unethical behavior you will find more of it in nearly any profession, I'm afraid.
 
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student1799 said:
Oh, they could find out, all right. All they need to do is run a computer search on you at the first institution. (The release you sign when you submit your application gives them the right to do that.) If they find those grades and you haven't reported them, you're dead. Not only will your GPA go down, but you'd be guilty of misrepresentation on your app, which is seen as a very serious thing. That would destroy any chance you might have had to get into med school.
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Agreed. In the day of computerization no records are truly hidden from someone determined. Not worth eliminating your chances of med school by omitting that which is probably not that harmful.
 
JessicaMorsell said:
Thanks, Food. Like I said, I don't have the balls to do that. Any adcom could easily be reading this and see my name and know to keep an eye out for me, since, you know, I'm a big fat liar. But I will certainly let you know when I'm cutting cadavers. 😀 Do you really think they will show mercy to a nontrad with instant dramatic improvement? I'm carrying a 4.0, yay me...have heard that they want to see an upward trend after epic screw-ups, but I'm just so...terrified.
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JM, no one is calling you a liar. Other posters just want to impress upon you how serious an offense it would be to fail to report *any* postsecondary grades you have received, when you are explicitly signing a document attesting to the fact that you have reported all such grades.

As for your second question, yes, adcoms do look at trends in the GPA. If you have a strong upward trend (which it sounds like you do), this will help to some extent. At my school, even an app from a trad who has a bad freshman year but then gets his or her act together and pulls stellar grades during junior and senior years will not automatically get thrown into the reject pile. I know it's hard not to be a little neurotic sometimes, because the app process is terribly competitive and the stakes are high for nearly all the applicants. But you have to step back a little and have some faith in the process, as well as find the courage to do what you know you ought to do. Adcoms are not looking for perfection from applicants; they are looking for people who will survive the rigors of med school, pass the USMLE steps, and become practicing physicians. Focus on convincing adcoms that you have what it takes to succeed *now*, and don't waste your precious time and energy worrying about things that are in the distant past and can no longer be changed.

Best of luck to you. 🙂
 
Thank Quim. I know this whole prcess is cut-throat, and I'm not exactly a saint, but I got the distinct impression that ShyRem was out for blood, or just feeling superior, er...just having a bad day. That's all. Amcas scares the bejeeebus out of me, too. I'm hoping I'll come out on top, and I have a good feeling about the OP's situation, as well.
 
Not out for blood, but it is very distressing to see folks asking about withholding information that the application clearly states must be supplied. To me, that constitutes lying (or the contemplation of the lie). There is no question. The information must be supplied. When I was filling out my forms, I never questioned "why" my absolutely craptastic grades that were 20 years old had to be supplied or contemplated "gee, could they ever find out if I left them off". They had to be submitted. Period.

I see fellow students (as do all of us in med school at sometime or other) who will do just about anything to get ahead. Cheat, lie about circumstances to prolong an exam, deliberately sabotage other students in some way or other... it's really quite disgusting IMO. And yet they continue their behavior because it works. Appalling they actually get into med school, and yet there they are.

Law, my apologies. Lie was not the best word. Perhaps... well... suppress the truth (which is really awfully close IMO - a lie by omission is still a lie). Lawyers get paid a lot of money to suppress truth and evidence whenever possible to put their clients in the best light. I used to work for some that didn't do much of that, but I saw plenty who did. The legal system has very little to do with truth, justice, guilt or innocence anymore, I'm afraid. It has more to do with loopholes and getting the client off. (Sorry, I just have a very jaded view of our legal system. I realize it's one of the best out there, but it still stinks. But that's another thread topic entirely.)
 
ShyRem said:
Law, my apologies. Lie was not the best word. Perhaps... well... suppress the truth (which is really awfully close IMO - a lie by omission is still a lie). Lawyers get paid a lot of money to suppress truth and evidence whenever possible to put their clients in the best light. I used to work for some that didn't do much of that, but I saw plenty who did. The legal system has very little to do with truth, justice, guilt or innocence anymore, I'm afraid. It has more to do with loopholes and getting the client off. (Sorry, I just have a very jaded view of our legal system. I realize it's one of the best out there, but it still stinks. But that's another thread topic entirely.)
Click to expand...

I think you saw a small glimpse of law that isn't representative of the profession as a whole. And again, criminal law represents such a small percentage of lawyers that you really won't have any idea of what the profession is all about -- it's really a very different job than most lawyers have. But even in that specialty, there is no "suppression of evidence" except where a judge demands it. The notion of lawyers hiding things is a hollywood concept that you don't see in practice. There are a fixed set of rules you must and do follow as a lawyer, which guaranty that folks get the protections they are required to have under the constitution. Following these rules protects us all. Truth, justice and innocence have nothing to do with law, because the rules aren't keyed to these concepts. Guilt absolutely is relevant in criminal law because folks are either guilty beyond a reasonably doubt, or they are not guilty (not the same as innocent) beyond that standard of proof.
 
ShyRem said:
Not out for blood, but it is very distressing to see folks asking about withholding information that the application clearly states must be supplied. To me, that constitutes lying (or the contemplation of the lie). There is no question. The information must be supplied. When I was filling out my forms, I never questioned "why" my absolutely craptastic grades that were 20 years old had to be supplied or contemplated "gee, could they ever find out if I left them off". They had to be submitted. Period.

I see fellow students (as do all of us in med school at sometime or other) who will do just about anything to get ahead. Cheat, lie about circumstances to prolong an exam, deliberately sabotage other students in some way or other... it's really quite disgusting IMO. And yet they continue their behavior because it works. Appalling they actually get into med school, and yet there they are.

Law, my apologies. Lie was not the best word. Perhaps... well... suppress the truth (which is really awfully close IMO - a lie by omission is still a lie). Lawyers get paid a lot of money to suppress truth and evidence whenever possible to put their clients in the best light. I used to work for some that didn't do much of that, but I saw plenty who did. The legal system has very little to do with truth, justice, guilt or innocence anymore, I'm afraid. It has more to do with loopholes and getting the client off. (Sorry, I just have a very jaded view of our legal system. I realize it's one of the best out there, but it still stinks. But that's another thread topic entirely.)
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I would be hard-pressed to find a medical school that wants students who don't ask "why." I still think your comments were entirely inappropriate and missed the point. If you don't have somrthing nice to say...
 
JessicaMorsell said:
I would be hard-pressed to find a medical school that wants students who don't ask "why." I still think your comments were entirely inappropriate and missed the point. If you don't have somrthing nice to say...
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Every profession wants students to ask "why" when they're undergoing training. But the "why" needs to stem from geniune curiosity - not from an apparent desire to hide a bad grade or game the system so that it gives you an advantage. I'm sure that you had a geniune interest in finding out about how AMCAS collects your transcript, but from your previous posts, it sounded as though you were trying to figure out a way to hide some skeletons in your closet (you're probably going to claim otherwise - but trust me, the other posters knew what you were thinking when you asked them how AMCAS would be able to uncover your past transcripts). The best policy would still be to disclose all your past grades just to be honest.

Another thing that I would advise you to do is to change your avatar name. You're right in saying that this is a cut-throat process and I do know that some medical school admissions people browse these threads. It will reflect badly on you if they see these posts under your name and they found out about an attempt to cover up a bad grade. Most people come on this site anonymously to vent or to ask for help. It would be really awkward if the admissions committee or your medical school interviewer read about your past indiscretions that put you in this situation (i.e. "I'm in a similar situation as OP. I have no good excuse for my poor performance other than the fact that I was 17 and chasing boys. Silly, I know.") or what you really think about the medical profession (i.e. "I'm certain physicians can also be some of the dirtiest, most disloyal, skillful cheaters on the planet")
 
Law2Doc said:
It's about as true of lawyers as the daily sexcapades of Grey's Anatomy are true for most doctors.
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You shut your pie-hole! Those doctors having daily sexcapades are the gospel truth! Right? Right? Oh god...have I made a terrible mistake? 😉
 
Although there's no question that AMCAS does require you to report any and all grades from the past, I personally think that policy is horrible, punitive and for the most part ridiculous.

Yes, I also have some skeletons in my closet, which I've duly disclosed (and they're 25 years old!), but that's not the only reason I object to this. What kind of damn sense does it make, anyway?

Take one example: AMCAS clearly states that if you took any college courses while in high school, even if they didn't count for credit, they must be reported and included in your GPA. WHAT??? So some poor unsuspecting HS student may take a couple of classes at the local college (and probably not med school prereqs either) at the suggestion of their teacher or adviser. Let's say they get B's, which no one in the world of college admissions would hold against them, and have an interesting and enjoyable experience. But years later, when they're on the verge of applying to med school, they find that those B's have now lowered their GPA, and thus reduced their chances of getting into the med school of their choice.

This has actually happened to people on SDN; I read a post a couple of months ago by a girl of 14 or 15 who had already taken several college classes and got C+'s in some of them. How does it feel to tell a 15-year old that they're already at a disadvantage if they ever want to go to med school someday? That's just wrong as far as I'm concerned. I would like any med school in America to look me straight in the eye and tell me that a college class I might have taken at 15 has any bearing on my ability to succeed in med school.

What kind of message are we sending here? "Even when you're young, don't try anything new and challenging unless you're sure you're going to be perfect at it, otherwise med schools will hold it against you." Way to go, AMCAS.

And although the above is certainly the most egregious example of how extreme AMCAS' policies are, it's not the only one I can think of. Let's consider the question of old grades. What would be so terrible if we let them "expire" in, say, 10 years, similar to the "academic forgiveness" that TX offers its students? If bad grades expired after 10 years, you'd still have to replace them with better ones, so the students in question would still have to prove themselves. And it's not as if the 10 years in purgatory is such a trivial amount of time; the applicant would still have to show that they'd done something meaningful with their life in the meantime.

I think this is infinitely more reasonable than forcing people to drag the burden of their past around with them forever. Similar to what I said about the HS students (and even more so, given that more time will have passed), I don't really think you can make a strong case that grades that are 10 or more years old are really reflective of a student's current potential--either in the negative OR the positive sense. (There's just no guarantee that the future will be like the past.) But under the current system, there are many people who do have good current grades and would make good physicians who may never be able to enter allopathic med school, thanks to ancient low grades which follow them around forever.

Is this insane, people-eating system ever going to change?
 
You can also apply the same logic to taking a notoriously difficult major. The entire pre-medical education system is messed up. They don't encourage you to stretch and challenge yourself by taking difficult courses and perhaps get a B or a C, they encourage you to take courses you really don't care about but that are easy so you don't learn much but get an A. To get that all-important 4.0 it's beneficial to only take the minimum course load so you have enough time to make sure you get that all-important A. But if you take 21 credits of math, physics, and chem and get straight Bs your GPA is majorly in the crapper.

Yeah. That whole process really prepares you for the rigors of med school. But we don't have the power to change it, so you just gotta go with it.
 
I'm not sure why principle of "statute of limitations" doesn't apply here as it does in debt and criminal law.
 
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