Question about average "Day Doc" track

[spike7585]

I'm in my final year of residency and started the job hunt. I live in a city where the whole city is practically run by an AMC. I know I can find smaller groups and more profitable gigs if I were to move, but that's not an option at the moment due to my significant other. This AMC group offers multiple tracks, one of them being a "day doc" track of 7am-3pm M-F, no call, no weekends, all benefits/insurance included.

So my questions is....what is the average salary for most of you out there on a similar track? I'll be honest, part of me wonders if there's more bang for the buck doing a day doc track with W-2 benefits and supplementing it with 1099 moonlighting/locums on weekends for example. If I am going into a practice knowing I won't be making partner, I am just trying to maximize my income while I can.

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[BuzzPhreed]

Move.

 

[aneftp]

U are better off trying to find a Monday through Thursday "day job". Say 7-5pm at AMC if your intention is to "moonlight".

If it's a big enough cities. Many places would a prn guy who can come in and with random Fridays.

Look out for non compete clauses if you intend to moonlight.

You can easily make $30-50k income moonlight that one Friday 26-30 Fridays out of the year.

So I would try for the Monday through Thursday angle day job.

 

[pgg]

Move.

That's not useful advice given

I know I can find smaller groups and more profitable gigs if I were to move, but that's not an option at the moment due to my significant other.

Nothing wrong with spending a year or two out of residency earning money and getting experience before you settle down someplace, or while your SO finishes school or residency there. Being a geo-bachelor sucks.

As with any intended-to-be-temporary gig, it's worth thinking about who pays for your tail (if it's not an occurrence policy). Hourly pay for non partner track / locums varies WILDLY across the USA so what's good where I live might be great or poor where you're at. Most of the locums I do is at $170/hr. I've been offered as low as $120/hr and as much as $225/hr though.

Don't let yourself get stuck in a corner at a temporary job because of a bad non-compete clause, or a big tail that's your problem.

 

[IlDestriero]

Of course working only 4 days a week in the mommy track will cost you ~50k a year, so I'm not sure what the upside of that would be. Who wants to be the fill in bïtch for whoever they can find when they can just take a regular Mon-Fri gig?
Make the best of your situation and pick the group that has the most diverse practice, healthy block volume, etc. At least when you finally quit, you'll have good experience to get a better job.
P.S. Partner tracks still exist, even in desirable locations. Look hard and don't settle when the time is right.
PPS I've seen $250-300 for these jobs. I've also seen an ad for $180. 8(

 

[urge]

I live in a good sized city and have never seen a weekend gig advertised. They might not be as easy to find as you think.

Most of what I see posted are GI docs looking for an anesthesiologist to cover 1 or 2 days, usually in the middle off the week.

 

[TaoistDoc]

One of my classmate told me a bout a job offer he got for one of these Mon-Fri no nights no weekends W2 with benefits and quoted around 225K

 

[nimbus]

If you are looking to moonlight anyway, why not sign on for the highest paying call taking position with the AMC? Hopefully it is productivity based.

250k for a 40 hr week is $125/hr. You can do a lot better even in "low pay" areas.

 

[spike7585]

Ya the gig in my city is 40 hours a week, full benefits for ~220k. Meh.

 

[BuzzPhreed]

That's not useful advice given

If you're not willing to be "geographically flexible", then you deserve whatever reaming you get.

There are a lot of these types of jobs out there. In many of them you're basically a pre-op/consent/post-op scut master and you don't get the benefit of post-call day, etc. A lot of them are also 1099 and they barely (if at all) skirt the legal requirements of a contractor. Usually in the end it's just someone trying to exploit you.

This is a better job (in my opinion) for someone at the tail end of their career, not the beginning. Heavily vet this job before you take it. That's my full advice.

 

[spike7585]

If you're not willing to be "geographically flexible", then you deserve whatever reaming you get.

There are a lot of these types of jobs out there. In many of them you're basically a pre-op/consent/post-op scut master and you don't get the benefit of post-call day, etc. A lot of them are also 1099 and they barely (if at all) skirt the legal requirements of a contractor. Usually in the end it's just someone trying to exploit you.

This is a better job (in my opinion) for someone at the tail end of their career, not the beginning. Heavily vet this job before you take it. That's my full advice.

Willing?? I did state that my significant other has no choice but to stay in the current city for the time being.... Clearly the situation will change in the future but for the time being I'm not "willing" to leave

 

[pgg]

If you're not willing to be "geographically flexible", then you deserve whatever reaming you get.

Oh come on, don't be ridiculous. I'll be the first to advise people to be geographically flexible (I just spent 5 years out in the sticks) but there are a thousand GOOD reasons why someone would take a less-than-perfect job because family ties them to a location. It doesn't mean they deserve to get screwed.

Asking what to look out for, and how to make the most of that, is supremely reasonable.

 

[BuzzPhreed]

Willing?? I did state that my significant other has no choice but to stay in the current city for the time being.... Clearly the situation will change in the future but for the time being I'm not "willing" to leave

There you have it. Sounds like you already have your mind made up.

Also many of these "groups" offering such an arrangement are run by CRNAs that just need and only want someone simply to sign the charts. Or they are owned by a GI group or a plastic surgeon (etc.) and just want you to do what they say. Rock the boat and you're out on your ass. I absolutely would never take such a job - even temporarily - unless they agree 100% to pay the tail. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Caveat emptor.

 

[gasdoc77]

I'm in my final year of residency and started the job hunt. I live in a city where the whole city is practically run by an AMC. I know I can find smaller groups and more profitable gigs if I were to move, but that's not an option at the moment due to my significant other. This AMC group offers multiple tracks, one of them being a "day doc" track of 7am-3pm M-F, no call, no weekends, all benefits/insurance included.

So my questions is....what is the average salary for most of you out there on a similar track? I'll be honest, part of me wonders if there's more bang for the buck doing a day doc track with W-2 benefits and supplementing it with 1099 moonlighting/locums on weekends for example. If I am going into a practice knowing I won't be making partner, I am just trying to maximize my income while I can.

Is fellowship an option? This is one situation where the financials of it might make sense over the long term. You won't be working towards anything with this day job and you will be getting less pay anyway. At least this way the difference in pay could effectively count as investment in your future.

 

[nycitygas]

The salaries for day positions have significantly dropped in the last few years. I think you are better off doing a fellowship or taking the highest paying call position available. When you factor in pre call & post call days, the full time position might only be 45-50 hours a week.

 

[Mman]

There you have it. Sounds like you already have your mind made up.

Sheesh, no need to be a dick about it. Some people are unable to pick up and leave an area for family reasons. You can't choose to get a divorce because there aren't great job options in a city. You suck it up and do the best you can. Work isn't everything.

 

[TaoistDoc]

What do y'all think about 280K a year 1099 contract in a desirable southeast location. No partnership. 60hr/week. call 1 in 6. 6 weeks vacation a year. No extra income. No benefits except malpractice insurance. No tail coverage. Salary will escalate each year up to 360K 4th year.

 

[IlDestriero]

What do y'all think about 280K a year 1099 contract in a desirable southeast location. No partnership. 60hr/week. call 1 in 6. 6 weeks vacation a year. No extra income. No benefits except malpractice insurance. No tail coverage. Salary will escalate each year up to 360K 4th year.

That is a horrible job man. Higher hours, high call, no benefits and low pay. Maybe for 360 year 1 if you're doing all your own cases and have 12 weeks of vaca. The partners and/or AMC overlords will probably make more than you on that job. Is it solo providing or supervising? If you're supervising it is slave labor.
I live in a decent city, work less hours, have much less call, supervise 2:1 when I'm not doing my own cases, have good vaca and admin/non clinical time off, real benefits, and make more than your final salary IN ACADEMICS.
Don't do it!!! You should be making bank in the Southeastern US!

 

[IlDestriero]

I have a question about the above job. What is the purpose of the 4 year ramp in salary? You're not buying into the partnership. You're not paying back the money you were essentially loaned the first few months while they waited for your billing to be paid. They keep all the money anyway!
WTF is that all about?
You're an employee, doing the same job day 1 year one and day 1 year 4. That's pure bullshït right there. Being taken advantage of to fill the coffers of your masters.
Not only would I not take that job, I would laugh in the face of the person that offered it to me. Go find another sucker.

 

[Hypenosis]

What do y'all think about 280K a year 1099 contract in a desirable southeast location. No partnership. 60hr/week. call 1 in 6. 6 weeks vacation a year. No extra income. No benefits except malpractice insurance. No tail coverage. Salary will escalate each year up to 360K 4th year.

The fact that jobs like this are popping up more and more is a bit concerning.

 

[urge]

What do y'all think about 280K a year 1099 contract in a desirable southeast location. No partnership. 60hr/week. call 1 in 6. 6 weeks vacation a year. No extra income. No benefits except malpractice insurance. No tail coverage. Salary will escalate each year up to 360K 4th year.

Sounds horrible. Too much call, no benefits, and low pay. I estimate you will spend 50k in taking care of your benefits. As Il Destriero mentioned, I don't see a reason for a 80k difference in salary. I understand getting less the 1st year out when you are not certified but that's it.

BTW, I'm sure a CRNA can make more money working 60hrs a week.

 

[TaoistDoc]

That is a horrible job man. Higher hours, high call, no benefits and low pay. Maybe for 360 year 1 if you're doing all your own cases and have 12 weeks of vaca. The partners and/or AMC overlords will probably make more than you on that job. Is it solo providing or supervising? If you're supervising it is slave labor.
I live in a decent city, work less hours, have much less call, supervise 2:1 when I'm not doing my own cases, have good vaca and admin/non clinical time off, real benefits, and make more than your final salary IN ACADEMICS.
Don't do it!!! You should be making bank in the Southeastern US!

I may have overexagerated when I said 60hr/week. now that I recalculated it, it is more like 50-55hours a week supervising 1:3 or 1:4.

For people saying that this is a really ****ty job what kind of jobs have yall been finding available in the last 1-2 years fitting a similar description and what kind of pay/benefit do they offer? Remind you, this is for a fresh attending without board certification or fellowship.

I know your job is probably a hella a lot sweeter than what I got offered IlDestriero, but you also have had much more experience as well so you cant really compare my job offer to your current job.

 

[TaoistDoc]

Sounds horrible. Too much call, no benefits, and low pay. I estimate you will spend 50k in taking care of your benefits. As Il Destriero mentioned, I don't see a reason for a 80k difference in salary. I understand getting less the 1st year out when you are not certified but that's it.

BTW, I'm sure a CRNA can make more money working 60hrs a week.

you're right. Average CRNA salary is probably 160k. when you add benefits, its 220k. Working 40Hr/week, 44 weeks a year, that's 1760hr/year. 220k/1760 = 125/hr.

What I got offered: 280k plus malpractice = 290k. working 53hr/week, 46 weeks a year = 2438 hrs/year. 290k/2438= 119/hr.

When I max out my salary at 360k/year. 360k/2438 = 147/hr.

Its a ****ty situation. but I guess that's the future.

 

[IlDestriero]

1.5 years ago I was courted by a larger PP job in the SE for a head of peds job doing adults and peds, 100% care team 1:3-1:4. Partners were making far far far more than your offer and got some group benefits as well as malpractice paid. Of course as a partner it is your money either way after your buy in period.
As for my job, new fellows come on to the faculty at nearly the same income and benefits, though it depends a bit on a few factors.
I have seen, and can understand holding back some pay, promotion to assistant professor, etc. until board certified, but a 4 year "buy in" to nothing is pure robbery.
Good jobs are out there. If people don't take these sucker offers, they will have to offer fair compensation.

As an aside, overexaggerated isn't a word. It's just exaggerated. Add it to the list of stuff on the other thread.

 

[IlDestriero]

Counter the offer with $360 upon board certification and it still is a shady job that pays less than the 50th percentile with no room to improve.

 

[TaoistDoc]

I hear what yall are saying. You also got to account for the fact that this area is highly desirable. Essentially I would be living on the beach so having a little less vacation is fine because I'll be surfing/vacationing every free weekends.

I also have to take everything with a grain of salt because some of yall are saying I should be getting 360K, while other attending on this forum have been known to say that 250k is the new norm. Having spoken with some AMCs seeing what they are offering, they say starting salary is mid to upper 200's. but that's with benefits, so I guess $300-$350 without benefits starting is not too unreasonable.

 

[TaoistDoc]

..

 

[Sublimazing]

you're right. Average CRNA salary is probably 160k. when you add benefits, its 220k. Working 40Hr/week, 44 weeks a year, that's 1760hr/year. 220k/1760 = 125/hr.

What I got offered: 280k plus malpractice = 290k. working 53hr/week, 46 weeks a year = 2438 hrs/year. 290k/2438= 119/hr.

When I max out my salary at 360k/year. 360k/2438 = 147/hr.

Its a ****ty situation. but I guess that's the future.

getting paid 147/hr seems like such a punch in the groin considering the services you provide.

 

[Ezekiel2517]

I hear what yall are saying. You also got to account for the fact that this area is highly desirable.

That explains a lot. I guarantee you they will find someone to fill that job. In Socal and the Bay Area, there are people who accept far less to work and live here. They know they can get a much better gig elsewhere.

 

[Lysinee]

It's rare to get all 3. Usually you can get 2/3.

1. Salary
2. Lifestyle
3. Location

 

[nimbus]

That explains a lot. I guarantee you they will find someone to fill that job. In Socal and the Bay Area, there are people who accept far less to work and live here. They know they can get a much better gig elsewhere.

The offer he describes is significantly below average even in SoCal.

 

[Ezekiel2517]

The offer he describes is significantly below average even in SoCal.

Depends what type of practice you're talking about. Most PP jobs in SoCal are eat what you kill so it all depends. You can do OK but you'd still make more if you had the same job in another region. Academics in SoCal does not pay 280 to start and you're chances of getting to 360 are very slim. A lot of people work for Kaiser and I'm pretty sure they don't start at 280

 

[BuzzPhreed]

It's rare to get all 3. Usually you can get 2/3.

1. Salary
2. Lifestyle
3. Location

It's actually:

1. Salary
2. Lifestyle / Location
3. Job satisfaction

Do not discount the importance of 3.

 

[Mman]

It's actually:

1. Salary
2. Lifestyle / Location
3. Job satisfaction

Do not discount the importance of 3.

Correct. You can find some very happy people that don't get paid much but love the location and the job.

 

[deleted171991]

My order is:
1. Job satisfaction
2. Salary x lifestyle x location (at least two out of them)

I can accept a lower salary for a good location, but I want an excellent salary or a great lifestyle in a remote place. However, for me, nothing can replace a nice workplace with good colleagues.

 

[aneftp]

My order is:
1. Job satisfaction
2. Salary x lifestyle x location (at least two out of them)

I can accept a lower salary for a good location, but I want an excellent salary or a great lifestyle in a remote place. However, for me, nothing can replace a nice workplace with good colleagues.

Location is very important to a lot of people. Some of us cannot cannot stand to live more than 1 hour away from a major international airport.

I just can't imagine living in a location where there are no non stop flights to Europe or the Caribbean.

When I lived in the DC area, it was so convenient having 3 major airports in a 40-50 mile radius that I can fly off to on a random weekend trip. Same thing with living in Florida. I just can't stand airport connections.

 

[BuzzPhreed]

I may currently live in a "less than desirable area" but I'm within 2 hours of three major airports than can get me pretty much anywhere I want to go non-stop. And my job satisfaction is close to 100%. Also I'm paid substantially more than I would be in a major metropolitan area (or suburb of the same) with an overall lower work load. That's worth a lot.

 

[BLADEMDA]

When you are a new graduate with loans/debt to pay here is the rank:

1. Salary
2. Salary
3. Salary

After you pay your debt off then you go surf.

 

[BuzzPhreed]

When you are a new graduate with loans/debt to pay here is the rank:

1. Salary
2. Salary
3. Salary

After you pay your debt off then you go surf.

You could pay me $1,000,000/year and I still wouldn't want to endure what I endured (briefly) in my last job.

(Okay, maybe for $1M a year I would.)

 

[BLADEMDA]

You could pay me $1,000,000/year and I still wouldn't want to endure what I endured (briefly) in my last job.

(Okay, maybe for $1M a year I would.)

My point is to make some sacrifices early on in your career. Go take a job in BFE and earn some money. Pay off your debt and save up $500K in an FU account. By the time you are 35-38 you can take that crappy job and surf 3 out of 4 weekends. It's easy to find a low paying job so go search for something decent wherever you can find it... And I mean wherever

 

[chocomorsel]

Blade, wherever doesn't always work out for everyone. When you aren't Caucasian, you gotta be weary of "wherever" you live. It's not so cut and dry for some of us minorities. There are sweet paying gigs the middle of nowhere South, but would likely face some injustices, some of them even violent. On the job hunt now, but gotta be somewhat picky.

Just an FYI.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Blade, wherever doesn't always work out for everyone. When you aren't Caucasian, you gotta be weary of "wherever" you live. It's not so cut and dry for some of us minorities. There are sweet paying gigs the middle of nowhere South, but would likely face some injustices, some of them even violent. On the job hunt now, but gotta be somewhat picky.

Just an FYI.

I hear you and totally agree. That said, it is worth considering locations out of your comfort zone if the pay is better. In the end the decision of location, lifestyle, pay, etc is yours to make.

 

[Jlaws67]

My point is to make some sacrifices early on in your career. Go take a job in BFE and earn some money. Pay off your debt and save up $500K in an FU account. By the time you are 35-38 you can take that crappy job and surf 3 out of 4 weekends. It's easy to find a low paying job so go search for something decent wherever you can find it... And I mean wherever

When you're referring to BFE jobs what actually counts as BFE? i.e. There are plenty of small towns in the PNW that I'd love to work, but I imagine despite not having major airports, having access to skiing/the outdoors alone makes them still desirable places to live.

 

[IlDestriero]

For me, no major airport would be BFE and I couldn't work there. Lots of people want to live in small cities/towns far from the coast and work at smaller community type hospitals, etc. but most do not.
If you do, then you're golden.

 

[Mman]

When you're referring to BFE jobs what actually counts as BFE? i.e. There are plenty of small towns in the PNW that I'd love to work, but I imagine despite not having major airports, having access to skiing/the outdoors alone makes them still desirable places to live.

Considering Washington, Oregon, and Idaho have "opted out", you might not have terribly many great job options in small towns in those states. Smaller hospitals may be happy with half ass anesthesia coverage from a CRNA only model.

 

[pjl]

Often the difference in pay provides enough resources to take a 2 hour limo ride to the airport, fly first class and stay in far nicer hotels...

 

[kingcer0x]

Blade, wherever doesn't always work out for everyone. When you aren't Caucasian, you gotta be weary of "wherever" you live. It's not so cut and dry for some of us minorities. There are sweet paying gigs the middle of nowhere South, but would likely face some injustices, some of them even violent. On the job hunt now, but gotta be somewhat picky.

Just an FYI.

Even as a veteran, one faces these injustices in many parts of America... the south happens to be more overt about their intolerance of people not like them. No thank you...

 

[Ronin2258]

Even as a veteran, one faces these injustices in many parts of America... the south happens to be more overt about their intolerance of people not like them. No thank you...

I tend to agree. Also stinks to have something service-connected as well.

Unfortunately it's got to be lifestyle and location for me. I am fortunate that I am well below the curve on what I owe for education and single, so as long as I make the average, I'm good.

Lifestyle: The lifestyle has to be accommodating to an ongoing health issue. 1:4 call with post-call off is tolerable, but there have been some ridiculous ones out there. One job was reasonable pay, but 1:2 call, working the next day. They called it a "light 1:2" call (yeah, right.) Call pay was only a couple of hundred a night (not per hour.) Working a full day after a potential night being slammed? No dice. I would not be safe with the health issue in that situation.

Location: I have friends in set locations around two major cities. I spent residency away from both areas. Tried to make friends in residency, tried to be social when we could, between studying our fannies off and call. I couldn't for the life of me even get a colleague or a "friend" out to do a simple dinner or drinks. I was basically isolated from social interaction for three years, save for a once a year trip back to the circle of friends, and nearly destroyed me not to have someone to talk to face-to-face. It was worth it in the end, but I can no longer discount the need for a strong social support granted to me by staying near those two cities.

The only thing that would make things bearable is a good geographical location. One thing that I believe saved my fanny was a weeklong conference in the dead of winter in a nice, warm area in my last year. Gave me enough to push through residency. So a southern, costal area is second (albeit distant,) on the list.

 

[BuzzPhreed]

Just remember that the compromises you are willing to accept will add up to the job you get, Ronin2258. Happy hunting.