Question about class size increase at AZCOM

[GaryPham]

Hi guys,

I've been reading lots of posts about how AZCOM is going to increase the incoming class size from 150 up to 250 students. I was wondering if any current AZCOM students can give me any concrete information about if this increase will happen immediately or if it is suppose to take place over the course of a few years. If the latter is true, do you happen to know how many spots will there be for the 2008 entering class?

Thanks everyone

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[DocFox]

I'm a 1st year at AZCOM and we have bimonthly meetings with the new dean, Dr. Kemper. This question came up and she stated that they are on track for increasing the class size to 250 for next year as long as the accrediting commission approves. There are LOTS of new buildings going up now in anticipation of this as well as the dental school that's going to open next year.

 

[theraball]

The question is, how are they going to accommodate 100 extra people in the anatomy and OMM labs, which are already full to capacity. Probably they'll have to have two sections a week in OMM. As for anatomy, we already have to share one cadaver between 10-12 people in three sections a week, so they'll either have to add about two more sections a week (impossible) or build a larger anatomy lab and solicit more donors (possible but not announced).

The other courses are lecture based and can easily expand into larger lecture halls. Note that the podiatry students attend the same basic science courses, and podiatry is expanding as well. They have 35 students currently and are expected to go up when their accreditation is finalized. So we may have 300+ first year students in lectures next fall. Oh, and the dental school is opening next year, too, but I don't know if they'll be sharing any classes. Probably some.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

The question is, how are they going to accommodate 100 extra people in the anatomy and OMM labs

These are not even your biggest problems. Has anyone said a word about where all these students will rotate?

 

[DocFox]

These are not even your biggest problems. Has anyone said a word about where all these students will rotate?

This has also been brought up. Dr. Kemper said they are currently working on opening up new rotations in and around Phoenix, as well as California and some other states (I forget the other ones).

These are good questions though and I hope that AZCOM doesn't start bursting at the seams because of all of the new students.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

This has also been brought up. Dr. Kemper said they are currently working on opening up new rotations in and around Phoenix, as well as California and some other states (I forget the other ones).

These are good questions though and I hope that AZCOM doesn't start bursting at the seams because of all of the new students.

"We're working on it."

Yep, heard that one before.

 

[okayplayer]

[deleted]

 

[DO Anes]

Just another example of the irresponsible growth that is reducing this profession to the lowest common denominator. Allopathic schools take 5 years to expand from 115 to 150 and still get flak from the professors about the capacity to grow. What a joke we are becomming.

 

[DocBR]

I have heard from SGA members that AZCOM received the go ahead on the expansion for the entering class of 2008. Dr. Kemper (Dean of AZCOM) said that it will not be official until December, but that could be just a formality.

If you are interviewing at AZCOM, do so under the assumption that you will be 1 of 250, that is how the school sees it.

 

[VentdependenT]

$$$$$$$$$$$$

You're number one question should be how you are going to get teaching hospital based rotations for your 3rd year CORE's. Do not accept "we're working on it."

I enjoyed my time at AZCOM but doubling the class size is scary.

 

[EEL08]

So for those of you who are/were AZCOM students, would you chosen to go there if the class size was 250? My husband and I really like the school and he has an interview on 12/4 but I know we need to take these changes into consideration should he be accepted.

 

[DocBR]

So for those of you who are/were AZCOM students, would you chosen to go there if the class size was 250? My husband and I really like the school and he has an interview on 12/4 but I know we need to take these changes into consideration should he be accepted.

That is a difficult question to answer. So far I love AZCOM and am very happy with my choice to go there. That said, I've heard that quality rotations are difficult to secure with just 150 students, so throwing on another 100 sounds like a bad idea to me.

In the past, they allowed students to set up their own rotations wherever they wanted and as many as they wanted out of state. That is no longer the case. They have plans in the works to secure enough rotations for the increased class size and are working very hard to accomplish that - but I would not bank my education on that.

 

[waytogoo]

I loved the school but i have to admit the rotation situation is a concern

 

[AZCOM2010]

$$$$$$$$$$$$

You're number one question should be how you are going to get teaching hospital based rotations for your 3rd year CORE's. Do not accept "we're working on it."

I enjoyed my time at AZCOM but doubling the class size is scary.

Yep, it's all about the money. I wouldn't bet for 1 minute that they will be secure enough quality rotations for all 250 students. Midwestern, with our new dean, only want your huge tuition dollars. If I could do it again, I would go elsewhere, but as it stands, I'm stuck.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Yep, it's all about the money.

Any word on whether or not they'll start paying for rotation spots? They've had offers in the past, but AZCOM administration shot those deals down. If they bump up the class size that high, they should have some $$$ to spend on rotations. Either that or spend 6 months of your 3rd year doing preceptor based family practice.

 

[VentdependenT]

Any word on whether or not they'll start paying for rotation spots? They've had offers in the past, but AZCOM administration shot those deals down. If they bump up the class size that high, they should have some $$$ to spend on rotations. Either that or spend 6 months of your 3rd year doing preceptor based family practice.

They won't give up cash for you to rotate. We had the same discussion when I was a 3rd year "way back" in 2002.

 

[AZCOM2010]

They won't give up cash for you to rotate. We had the same discussion when I was a 3rd year "way back" in 2002.

Word on the street is that Midwestern U. (including all schools, not just AZCOM and CCOM) made $30 million in profits last year. The president of the school, a cool $600,000. Would they give any of this up to pay for quality rotations? Haha, that's a good one!

 

[Beau Geste]

Oh no - are more AZCOM students going to compete with CCOM clinical spots for MS-3/4 in Chicago?

 

[LeemerDO]

heh

good luck trying to get the residency of your choice. I think this application cycle is when we had the beginning of the big explosion of increased enrollment in medical schools. You think the number of residencies have kept pace? Hardly

 

[anthroguy]

yea but each class is probably being diluted in terms of quality of students.

 

[Creflo]

The question is, how are they going to accommodate 100 extra people in the anatomy and OMM labs, which are already full to capacity. Probably they'll have to have two sections a week in OMM. As for anatomy, we already have to share one cadaver between 10-12 people in three sections a week, so they'll either have to add about two more sections a week (impossible) or build a larger anatomy lab and solicit more donors (possible but not announced).

The other courses are lecture based and can easily expand into larger lecture halls. Note that the podiatry students attend the same basic science courses, and podiatry is expanding as well. They have 35 students currently and are expected to go up when their accreditation is finalized. So we may have 300+ first year students in lectures next fall. Oh, and the dental school is opening next year, too, but I don't know if they'll be sharing any classes. Probably some.

Actually admissions and several others told me that podiatry will not be increasing their numbers next year. Who knows about future years? Podiatry loses about 10 new students per year as well.

 

[It'sElectric]

This is incredibly irresponsible of AZCOM. Personally, I think nearly all DO schools should cutback about 25 students.

 

[IDBasco]

Boy, its hard to decide if I really want to go for the interview I have scheduled in a couple weeks. I've already got a plane ticket, but no room or car. I hate to throw away the cash without actually going down there, but I'm not too sure I have enough confidence in their promises to write a check for $41k per year.

Bummer.

 

[bravotwozero]

If you don't wanna go, maybe you could get a partial refund or something, or you could exchange it for a plane ticket to another interview? Or, you can try and see if someone you know lives in phoenix, and will be willing to let you crash for the night/possibly give you a ride?

 

[IDBasco]

If you don't wanna go, maybe you could get a partial refund or something, or you could exchange it for a plane ticket to another interview? Or, you can try and see if someone you know lives in phoenix, and will be willing to let you crash for the night/possibly give you a ride?

I don't think that I can get my money out of my tickets- they were the cheapest southwest seats I could get. I have an acceptance elsewhere, but AZ seemed like it might be a nice place to live and a good school.

 

[theraball]

Boy, its hard to decide if I really want to go for the interview I have scheduled in a couple weeks. I've already got a plane ticket, but no room or car. I hate to throw away the cash without actually going down there, but I'm not too sure I have enough confidence in their promises to write a check for $41k per year.

Bummer.

Only you can decide whether an interview is worth your while; I would advise you not to base your decision on a few anonymous comments on an internet chat board. After all, it's your education and your career you're talking about. A good way to decide whether you want to spend the next 2 years of your life at a particular school is to visit and talk to lots of students and faculty there.

The next best thing might be to call the school and try to get the information you need about upcoming changes. I wouldn't wait on this. Good luck.

 

[IDBasco]

Only you can decide whether an interview is worth your while; I would advise you not to base your decision on a few anonymous comments on an internet chat board. After all, it's your education and your career you're talking about. A good way to decide whether you want to spend the next 2 years of your life at a particular school is to visit and talk to lots of students and faculty there.

The next best thing might be to call the school and try to get the information you need about upcoming changes. I wouldn't wait on this. Good luck.

Well, I guess I could call them. It isn't the size of the class as much as the large increase in one year.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

Word on the street is that Midwestern U. (including all schools, not just AZCOM and CCOM) made $30 million in profits last year. The president of the school, a cool $600,000. Would they give any of this up to pay for quality rotations? Haha, that's a good one!

I find that very hard to believe. Do you have some references?

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

I find that very hard to believe. Do you have some references?

When I was a student there, the president made somewhere over 500K. Her tax info was posted on one of the school bulletin boards (available because the school is non-profit). To make a long story short, I completely believe that she now makes 600K.

I have no idea about how much the school makes. But I'm sure they'll be making more off the 100 or so extra students.

 

[AZCOM2010]

I find that very hard to believe. Do you have some references?

Not anything in print. I would imagine it would be hard to get info like that. I heard that directly out of the mouth of the head of Student Services at the Glendale campus. Take that for what you will, but if you crunch the numbers, it makes sense (remember, the $30 million is from all schools under the Midwestern banner, not just CCOM and AZCOM- it's actually very believable).

 

[adamj_ut]

Hey guys,
As a recent grad from AZCOM, if I were to do it all over again, I would not pick AZCOM if going in it were going to have 250 students. Preceptor-based rotations are just not the answer. When you go to residency, if you have only had preceptor-based rotations you're a lot weaker than your counterparts. I was able to get some strong ward/residency-based rotations while rotating there. AZCOM has had numerous offers to establish ward-based rotations in Phoenix, but they just won't pony up the dough. Also, if you ever need to ask the professor a question about your lectures, how in the world are you going to get in to see him/her with 249 other people in your class?? Quality of education is just going to drop. Plain and simple.

 

[DocBR]

Also, if you ever need to ask the professor a question about your lectures, how in the world are you going to get in to see him/her with 249 other people in your class?? Quality of education is just going to drop. Plain and simple.

Good point. As it is now, getting outside help is difficult with 170 students (DO+POD).

I know of a few classmates who were in the low 60's (anything below a 70% is failing) for histo/embryo and when they asked student services for a tutor they were denied because the tutors were required by the more 'at risk' students.

 

[zch76]

So is it official that AZCOM's class size is going to increase for next year's incomming class. I am currently trying to decide on attending NOVA or AZCOM but since I want to do surgery I do not think I'll trust AZCOM if I'd be in the first increased class. Any opinions that may help me to decide between NOVA and AZCOM?

 

[TexasTriathlete]

I really don't see why it would matter. You'll have plenty of elective rotations to do wherever you want.

 

[VentdependenT]

I really don't see why it would matter. You'll have plenty of elective rotations to do wherever you want.

That means you're going to have a crap 4th year because you'll be spending it doing tons of inpatient months to have the right experience to not leave you in the dust as an intern.

 

[IDBasco]

That means you're going to have a crap 4th year because you'll be spending it doing tons of inpatient months to have the right experience to not leave you in the dust as an intern.

This is exactly what I've been worried about with this class size change. Sure you can away rotate in 4th year, but why waste electives on medicine or something if you want to specialize?

Vent, when you went to AZCOM, was there anything set up for doing your core rotations at any of the CCOM sites? Or do they treat that like any other away rotation?

 

[It'sElectric]

That means you're going to have a crap 4th year because you'll be spending it doing tons of inpatient months to have the right experience to not leave you in the dust as an intern.

I'm trying to make sure I understand you right. You're referring to the fact that these students would have to make up for a craptastic 3rd year by doing a number of rotations they wouldn't normally do in their 4th year?

 

[mtn0417]

I emailed someone high up the ladder over at AZCOM about this issue and will be speaking with them on the phone tomorrow. If any one has any particular question relating to class size, post it, and I'll try to ask it. I'll be sure to let folks know what is up with AZCOM class size sometime tomorrow. I will be attending school there next year I am hoping I can get answers that are more exact than they would tell you in an interview. I really believe in the best for this school (Probably b/c I will be attending there) and really want to give them benefit of the doubt. Call me a naive/optimistic pre-med, but its the only time in my life I'm gonna be one. (Soon I'll be a naive med student!)

 

[mtn0417]

I emailed someone high up the ladder over at AZCOM about this issue and will be speaking with them on the phone tomorrow. If any one has any particular question relating to class size, post it, and I'll try to ask it. I'll be sure to let folks know what is up with AZCOM class size sometime tomorrow. I will be attending school there next year I am hoping I can get answers that are more exact than they would tell you in an interview. I really believe in the best for this school (Probably b/c I will be attending there) and really want to give them benefit of the doubt. Call me a naive/optimistic pre-med, but it is the only time in my life I'm gonna be one. (Soon I'll be a naive med student!)

 

[A18Devil]

hey, how did the telephone call go?

 

[jltuttle]

heh

good luck trying to get the residency of your choice. I think this application cycle is when we had the beginning of the big explosion of increased enrollment in medical schools. You think the number of residencies have kept pace? Hardly

The number of residencies hasn't increased, however, there is still a much greater number of residency positions then there are med school graduates in the US. I think the class size increase is a good step toward increasing the percentage of residents who received med school training in the US.

 

[VentdependenT]

The number of residencies hasn't increased, however, there is still a much greater number of residency positions then there are med school graduates in the US. I think the class size increase is a good step toward increasing the percentage of residents who received med school training in the US.

What about DESIRABLE residency positions.

There will always be some IM program in the inner-city looking for people.

There will always be some FP program in the boondocks looking for people.

Just making a point.

 

[bravotwozero]

What's desirable to one may not be so to another.

 

[VentdependenT]

What's desirable to one may not be so to another.

Well in that case I guess there is nothing to worry about....

 

[mtn0417]

From the horse's mouth, as they say.
So I spoke with someone really high up at AZCOM, I am leaving their information private, but it was given to you if you interviewed there this past year. Anyway, I informed him of the general issues and of the things said on this website, also informing him that SDN is notoriously opinionated and a lot of the info does not rely on facts.
1. Concerning class size: the increase is going to occur to 250. I was told that this could happen this year, or over the course of two years. There was still a little uncertainty, mainly based on the application cycle and the fact that it is still early so they are not exactly sure how many people they will fill. (For a class of 250 you probably have to accept around 400-500 students and you don't just accept everyone).
Concerning Anatomy he said the labs are going to be renovated and expanded in size. This answer was a little vague and he couldn't give me a number about students:cadaver but assured me that "my office is moving to make room for a larger anatomy lab." As for class sizes, the lecture halls are going to be larger and more people in them (New Auditorium Building). Lecture is what you make of it (by attending or not), I attend a school and have had class with 700 other people. 250 (on a good day I bet) will be a welcome size. He did mention that they were increasing faculty and named of 4 new members picked up in the past couple months and that this wasn't going to stop. (m.d.s and d.o.s) A lot of the focus did seem on the research end and on the non-specialty end though which worried me.

2. The big issue, rotations. He mentioned a conference he was just at where he is the chair (blah blah blah) and all these connections (quite a few) with chairs at other programs. There was a mention of several hospitals forming a connection with AZCOM including some massive hospital in Arizona 500+beds (All I could be told). He also mentioned that AZCOM was building connections to several residencies programs as well and forming a relationship with the U of A and at still mesa. It seemed they were working extremely progressively toward the rotation issue and the idea that they would sit back on an issue like this seemed ridiculous.

The school is non-profit and it seems the talk on here is like MWU is taking our money and spending it on hookers and blow. Not the case, we are the future and reputation and success of that school. So, some of our money may go to a dental school or the president makes 600k, it is a major University and that is fair. The football coach for my terrible football team makes 800k a year. The students are AZCOMs future. The are investing hundreds of millions and could not afford to not work toward providing us the best education. If students do poorly and are not happy, the program will not succeed.

The goal is to make AZCOM and MWU of Glendale THE health school of the West and one of the most prominent health profession schools in the country. The goal is also to make AZCOM one of the most reputable medical schools in the country. By producing more highly trained grads there will be more proof of this. I am sorry about delay in response, had a really eventful weekend and started a new job this week (I did not know that CRNAs pretty much run outpatient surgery).

I hope this helps. If there is any concern I am sure if we group together as a class and really push the faculty, should get what we want. Rotations for us (class 2012) are 3 years away and a lot can be done by then. I hope this helps, my writing skills are kind of bad and I know I did not describe what I was told nearly as well as it was told to me.

 

[DO Anes]

The goal is to make AZCOM and MWU of Glendale THE health school of the West and one of the most prominent health profession schools in the country. The goal is also to make AZCOM one of the most reputable medical schools in the country.

The goal is to fill as many open seats as possible and rake in the $$$$$$$$$. AZCOM is going to be THE laughingstock of the West. An increase of 100 students is preposterous and quality will suffer. Everyone promises rotations at the "massive" Maricopa County hospital. Well, I guess U of A will just have to sit back and let AZCOM take the spaces. Do you really believe this nonsense?

 

[jltuttle]

The goal is to fill as many open seats as possible and rake in the $$$$$$$$$. AZCOM is going to be THE laughingstock of the West. An increase of 100 students is preposterous and quality will suffer. Everyone promises rotations at the "massive" Maricopa County hospital. Well, I guess U of A will just have to sit back and let AZCOM take the spaces. Do you really believe this nonsense?

There are relatively few UA students who rotate in Phoenix. Most rotate at the university hospital on campus in Tucson. I don't think UA is in competition with MWU (or vice-versa) for rotation spots.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

AZCOM students will do rotations at the first aid tent for ironman arizona.

 

[DO Anes]

There are relatively few UA students who rotate in Phoenix. Most rotate at the university hospital on campus in Tucson. I don't think UA is in competition with MWU (or vice-versa) for rotation spots.

There are now 4 medical schools in Arizona, 3 in Phoenix, including the UA/ASU freestanding campus. The AZCOM expansion is irresponsible and should not be permitted by COCA, but when was the last time COCA did anything to promote quality over quantity?

 

[tripleJ]

"If there is any concern I am sure if we group together as a class and really push the faculty, should get what we want. "

This is the single funniest thing I have ever read on SDN. Seriously.