Question about flight surgeons

[demh23]

Hi

How do you become a flight surgeon? is there a specific residency for it or do you do a residency in anything you want and then ask to be assigned to a squadron as a flight surgeon? Also say you want to do a residency in pediatrics after your tour as a flight surgeon. is that possible?

thanks

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[edmadison]

We need to know your Branch. Army -- easy, AF/Navy -- more drawn out

Ed

 

[deuist]

The default pathway in the Air Force is to be forced into flight surgery. All you need is an internship in any field, a one-month course in aerospace medicine, and pass a flight physical. Usually, 25% of graduating medical students will go this route, whether or not they want it. Doing another specialty such as pediatrics after a tour of duty as a flight surgeon is certainly easy as you'll rack up lots of points for military match.

 

[Jet915]

For Navy, graduate medical school, do one year of internship. Halfway between internship, you decide if you want to apply for flight surgery or not. Generally, you will get it if you apply, my year, there were a couple of people I knew who didn't get it but that is not the norm. Anyways, if you get selected, you do 6 months of training at Pensacola. Afterwards, you get 2 year orders to a flight billet. You will start applying for pediatrics generally after your first year of FS.

 

[Ascultator]

How about for Army? I'm finishing a family med residency then will join up right away into active duty.

Can anyone comment on the scope of practice for an Army flight surgeon? (i.e. basically GMO for army pilots?)

What does having an aerospace medicine fellowship do for you in terms of that scope ? I'd think you'd need to have that training to be a "real" flight surgeon....appreciate any clarification.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

How about for Army? I'm finishing a family med residency then will join up right away into active duty.

Can anyone comment on the scope of practice for an Army flight surgeon? (i.e. basically GMO for army pilots?)

What does having an aerospace medicine fellowship do for you in terms of that scope ? I'd think you'd need to have that training to be a "real" flight surgeon....appreciate any clarification.

In the AF, Aerospace Med is a residency (PGY2-4) not a fellowship. These are the guys who conspire, I mean collaborate, with the line folks to make policy. Typically it involves going into an admin/command track. As far as the actual residency goes, you get an MPH and become board-eligible in Occupational/Preventive Med. In therms of scope, it seems that the main thing this residency buys you is the ability to spend all your time either in meetings or preparing for them. You do get annual ISP and board pay, wheras a GMO flight doc does not. I think you also become eligible to apply for a limited number of fellowships, like hyperbarics.

 

[Informer]

I am currently a flight doc in the Air Force, here's my 2 cents

Got HPSP, matched into Family Medicine residency, however, I was 1 of 6 preselected spots that matched into "family medicine/flight medicine." This means that instead of becoming an FP doc after residency, I went straight into a flight surgeon billet.

AFSC -
48A = RAM (residency in aerospace medicine, see Tic's post)
48R = Residency Trained Flight Surgeon (get more leadership responsibilities)
48G = GMOs

Tic is correct about the RAM community, they are a tight group and lightheartedly referred to as "RAM Mafia." They make a lot of administrative decisions.

 

[UMiamiMilDoc]

For Navy, graduate medical school, do one year of internship. Halfway between internship, you decide if you want to apply for flight surgery or not. Generally, you will get it if you apply, my year, there were a couple of people I knew who didn't get it but that is not the norm. Anyways, if you get selected, you do 6 months of training at Pensacola. Afterwards, you get 2 year orders to a flight billet. You will start applying for pediatrics generally after your first year of FS.

Can you explain what the training consists of?

 

[backrow]

Can you explain what the training consists of?

2 weeks sitting in a classroom, followed by 6 weeks of Aviation Preflight Indoc (exact same classroom training as all Pilots/NFO's), followed by a couple months of learning the very basics of flying an airplane and a helicopter (total of about 11-12 flights between the two airframes), and then it's back to the classroom for a couple months of "aviation medicine" training. Learning how to do flight physicals, learning about various other medical topics, etc etc.

Very laid back training. Flight portion is fun, the classroom portion is mind numbing at times.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

Very laid back training. Flight portion is fun, the classroom portion is mind numbing at times.

And Pensacola NAS isn't the worst place to spend 6 months of your life, either.

 

[a1qwerty55]

I am currently a flight doc in the Air Force, here's my 2 cents

Got HPSP, matched into Family Medicine residency, however, I was 1 of 6 preselected spots that matched into "family medicine/flight medicine." This means that instead of becoming an FP doc after residency, I went straight into a flight surgeon billet.

AFSC -
48A = RAM (residency in aerospace medicine, see Tic's post)
48R = Residency Trained Flight Surgeon (get more leadership responsibilities)
48G = GMOs

Tic is correct about the RAM community, they are a tight group and lightheartedly referred to as "RAM Mafia." They make a lot of administrative decisions.

The idea that flight surgery has enough material to be a real residency is a bit laughable - but it does keep those docs who aren't clinically all that great and are more enamoured with regulations and airplanes busy. Ulitmately it just means the float into leadership positions making it miserable for the rest of the USAF docs.

 

[backrow]

The idea that flight surgery has enough material to be a real residency is a bit laughable - but it does keep those docs who aren't clinically all that great and are more enamoured with regulations and airplanes busy. Ulitmately it just means the float into leadership positions making it miserable for the rest of the USAF docs.

Does this mean you say that all Preventative Medicine residencies are "laughable"? I'm not defending RAM, but in reality it's a PrevMed residency with specialization in aerospace medicine which is recognized by the ABMS.

I would say it's just as much a "real residency" as any others, it's just not necessarily a huge emphasis on clinical medicine like the other prevmed and occupational med residencies. The difference is that normally you don't see those prevmed doc's in a clinical setting.

 

[AF M4]

Does this mean you say that all Preventative Medicine residencies are "laughable"? I'm not defending RAM, but in reality it's a PrevMed residency with specialization in aerospace medicine which is recognized by the ABMS.

I would say it's just as much a "real residency" as any others, it's just not necessarily a huge emphasis on clinical medicine like the other prevmed and occupational med residencies. The difference is that normally you don't see those prevmed doc's in a clinical setting.

Sure it's recognized by the ABMS, but the fact that one has to specifically defend it as such undermines the argument.

Look, when doctors say "residency" they mean "3-5 year period of time when I worked my balls off 80 hours a week and rarely saw the outside of the hospital, all so that I could become an expert in my field."

If you were to describe the RAM to a civilian doc, they would say that it doesn't sound like the type of residency they went through. Coming back and saying that it's recognized by the ABMS makes one technically correct in saying that it's a residency, but then the civilian doc is going to ask if you happen to have a "real" residency in something like family practice too. And by real they mean something akin to what they went through.

 

[backrow]

Sure it's recognized by the ABMS, but the fact that one has to specifically defend it as such undermines the argument.

Look, when doctors say "residency" they mean "3-5 year period of time when I worked my balls off 80 hours a week and rarely saw the outside of the hospital, all so that I could become an expert in my field."

If you were to describe the RAM to a civilian doc, they would say that it doesn't sound like the type of residency they went through. Coming back and saying that it's recognized by the ABMS makes one technically correct in saying that it's a residency, but then the civilian doc is going to ask if you happen to have a "real" residency in something like family practice too. And by real they mean something akin to what they went through.

I'm not a RAM, so I'm not defending the program, I just think it's a bit "high and mighty" of those of us in "clinical specialties" to think we are any better/worse than someone else who has completed a recognized residency. If the RAM's describe their residency as "I completed a preventative medicine residency with an emphasis in aerospace medicine" then I doubt any doc will ask them if they have a "real" residency as well.

 

[AF M4]

I'm not a RAM, so I'm not defending the program, I just think it's a bit "high and mighty" of those of us in "clinical specialties" to think we are any better/worse than someone else who has completed a recognized residency. If the RAM's describe their residency as "I completed a preventative medicine residency with an emphasis in aerospace medicine" then I doubt any doc will ask them if they have a "real" residency as well.

For someone who's keeps saying he's not defending the RAM, you sure do a lot of defending the RAM. Are you sponsoring a telethon that we don't know about?😀

 

[backrow]

For someone who's keeps saying he's not defending the RAM, you sure do a lot of defending the RAM. Are you sponsoring a telethon that we don't know about?😀

Haha. Nah, I'm just not a big fan of one group of physicians thinking they are "better" than others simply because of their choice of residency. Is it as rigorous as a surgical field or other residencies...absolutely not, but they fill a need...Do you really want to do prev med stuff? I sure as heck don't, so I'm more than grateful to those who do.

Granted always frustrating to see an O5/O6 filling a "clinical billet" at a clinic and then pretty much skating out of seeing any patients.

 

[AF M4]

Granted always frustrating to see an O5/O6 filling a "clinical billet" at a clinic and then pretty much skating out of seeing any patients.

Yeah, that was always my beef. Plus I never see 'em actually doing any prevmed or aerospace med stuff. Most of the RAMs I know just go to an endless line of meetings that I can never attend because I'm too busy seeing patients, and then afterwards they tell me that during the meeting I was magically assigned to do X piece of admin queep.

 

[244913]

The standout RAM's I've met combine the clinical acumen of a first year Medical Student, the indolence of a 15 year old girl, and the imperious attitude of Louis XVI.

Most are utterly mediocre with a strong dose of laziness. If you don't want to see patients, don't be a Doctor.

It's scary when a Physician stays in the military because he/she is unemployable in the civilian world.

-61N

 

[UMiamiMilDoc]

2 weeks sitting in a classroom, followed by 6 weeks of Aviation Preflight Indoc (exact same classroom training as all Pilots/NFO's), followed by a couple months of learning the very basics of flying an airplane and a helicopter (total of about 11-12 flights between the two airframes), and then it's back to the classroom for a couple months of "aviation medicine" training. Learning how to do flight physicals, learning about various other medical topics, etc etc.

Very laid back training. Flight portion is fun, the classroom portion is mind numbing at times.

Does that mean you come out of training as a pilot?

 

[a1qwerty55]

The standout RAM's I've met combine the clinical acumen of a first year Medical Student, the indolence of a 15 year old girl, and the imperious attitude of Louis XVI.

Most are utterly mediocre with a strong dose of laziness. If you don't want to see patients, don't be a Doctor.

It's scary when a Physician stays in the military because he/she is unemployable in the civilian world.

-61N

Never read a more true statement. I'm glad someone other than me posted it.

 

[backrow]

Does that mean you come out of training as a pilot?

No, nothing close to such, but you know enough to be dangerous to yourself 🙂

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

No, nothing close to such, but you know enough to be dangerous to yourself 🙂

Well I think now you're technically a check ride away from the new sport pilot license. I think you'd be limited to flying around the airport during the day in a rented Cessna. But yeah you're nowhere near being able to fly an actual military aircraft.

 

[Gastrapathy]

I'm not a RAM, so I'm not defending the program, I just think it's a bit "high and mighty" of those of us in "clinical specialties" to think we are any better/worse than someone else who has completed a recognized residency. If the RAM's describe their residency as "I completed a preventative medicine residency with an emphasis in aerospace medicine" then I doubt any doc will ask them if they have a "real" residency as well.

They won't ask it but they will sure as sh$t think it.

 

[VHADOC]

Sure it's recognized by the ABMS, but the fact that one has to specifically defend it as such undermines the argument.

Look, when doctors say "residency" they mean "3-5 year period of time when I worked my balls off 80 hours a week and rarely saw the outside of the hospital, all so that I could become an expert in my field."

If you were to describe the RAM to a civilian doc, they would say that it doesn't sound like the type of residency they went through. Coming back and saying that it's recognized by the ABMS makes one technically correct in saying that it's a residency, but then the civilian doc is going to ask if you happen to have a "real" residency in something like family practice too. And by real they mean something akin to what they went through.

Reminds me of a statement opined by one of my medschool classmates, paraphrased:
"it's ironic that those with the lowest Step 1/2 scores end up in specialties (e.g. family practice) that focus on the material covered in the Step 1/2 exams." In other words those that do poorly on the material are forced to work with the same material for the rest of their life.

From my perspective residency was much lower yield (information/experience per unit time) than medical school. Law of diminishing marginal returns really killed after the intern year.

And so family practice residency is a "real" residency? Not enough material in aerospace medicine to make it a "real" discipline? What makes internal medicine so unique? What did you learn in IM residency that you didn't hear about in years 1-4 as a medical student?

As someone with a lot of interest in aerospace medicine I would defend the discipline. At the same time I recognize that there are a lot of RAM clipboard commandos out there...but they should not be allowed to define the discipline. As a side note, on the civilian side, you won't be accepted into UTMB or Wright State without being board eligible/certified in another discipline.

 

[Gastrapathy]

From my perspective residency was much lower yield (information/experience per unit time) than medical school. Law of diminishing marginal returns really killed after the intern year.

Seriously? Residency was where I learned to take care of patients. Maybe you learn more trivia in medical school but I definitely learned how to be a doctor in residency.

 

[AF M4]

Reminds me of a statement opined by one of my medschool classmates, paraphrased:
"it's ironic that those with the lowest Step 1/2 scores end up in specialties (e.g. family practice) that focus on the material covered in the Step 1/2 exams." In other words those that do poorly on the material are forced to work with the same material for the rest of their life.

From my perspective residency was much lower yield (information/experience per unit time) than medical school. Law of diminishing marginal returns really killed after the intern year.

And so family practice residency is a "real" residency? Not enough material in aerospace medicine to make it a "real" discipline? What makes internal medicine so unique? What did you learn in IM residency that you didn't hear about in years 1-4 as a medical student?

As someone with a lot of interest in aerospace medicine I would defend the discipline. At the same time I recognize that there are a lot of RAM clipboard commandos out there...but they should not be allowed to define the discipline. As a side note, on the civilian side, you won't be accepted into UTMB or Wright State without being board eligible/certified in another discipline.

Hmm, I understand what you are saying but I disagree with your central argument. We are talking from lots of experience. I've had close contact with many RAMs during my few years in the Air Force, and the ones I'd actually trust to treat one of my patients make up the minority.

A discipline's reputation does not rest upon how much material or research it has backing it, but on the quality of its representatives. This is why successful countries tend to be choosey on who they pick to be their ambassadors.

What I typically see of RAMs in the AF are docs using their knowledge of the system to game it to avoid doing as much clinical work as possible, instead foisting most of the patient care they purport to specialize in on as many GMOs as possible while letting their own clinical skills rot. This has been the impression of many of my colleagues as well. With that kind of representation, any discipline's reputation will founder.

 

[a1qwerty55]

And so family practice residency is a "real" residency? Not enough material in aerospace medicine to make it a "real" discipline? What makes internal medicine so unique? What did you learn in IM residency that you didn't hear about in years 1-4 as a medical student?

As someone with a lot of interest in aerospace medicine I would defend the discipline.

Regretting this response already. but I can't help poking fun at them.
Let me summarize aerospace medicine,

1. Gases expand at altitude and become drier (functional eustachian tubes are a must)
2. The partial pressure of oxygen is lower - duh - you need oxygen at altitude
3. Planes are noisy, vibrate and have dangerous moving parts.
3. Pilots shouldn't fly if they are taking medications which might make them sleepy or crazy. - unless it is the speed/ambien combo RAM's prescribe.
4. If you have a medical condition which might incapacitate or impair you, you can't fly.
5. Crew rest is essential wink wink - (strips clubs are an appropriate crew rest option)
6. Pilots lie about their medical conditions.
7. RAM's lie about being pilots

 

[AF M4]

Regretting this response already. but I can't help poking fun at them.
Let me summarize aerospace medicine,

1. Gases expand at altitude and become drier (functional eustachian tubes are a must)
2. The partial pressure of oxygen is lower - duh - you need oxygen at altitude
3. Planes are noisy, vibrate and have dangerous moving parts.
3. Pilots shouldn't fly if they are taking medications which might make them sleepy or crazy. - unless it is the speed/ambien combo RAM's prescribe.
4. If you have a medical condition which might incapacitate or impair you, you can't fly.
5. Crew rest is essential wink wink - (strips clubs are an appropriate crew rest option)
6. Pilots lie about their medical conditions.
7. RAM's lie about being pilots

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBHzt6wRjYc

 

[pgg]

It's scary when a Physician stays in the military because he/she is unemployable in the civilian world.

A lot of those guys end up on an admin track "executive medicine" career path.

I have mixed feelings on this. On one hand, they're not exactly doctors any more. But
- they can't possibly do a worse job than a NC or MSC or dental officer
- it'd be a waste of a clinically strong doctor to fill those jobs
- people like us aren't exactly chomping at the bit to fill those jobs