Question about reputation of schools accepting weakest applicants

[LongApple]

Much better version of OP:

"OP is wondering if they go to a new school does that mean they have a higher chance of failing to match.
Then op is wondering if they go to that school are military would that decrease the chances of going unmatched considering military has its own match."

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[Blunt Dissection]

The only reason why anyone with a legal US medical license would be unable to find a job in this country is because they weren’t looking. It may not be in the most desirable places, but if you are a doctor, even a terrible one, you will find a job without resorting to the military.

 

[Reverb]

...if we take the bottom few D.O. schools which accept the weakest applicants into medical school of all schools...

1.) The weakest applicants don't get accepted.

2.) If a doctor is unemployed it either means they did something very bad or they are too picky to move/drive far for work.

 

[deleted645092]

I’m going to assume that you aren’t referring to someone’s school affecting their ability to find a job after completing training, but rather their school’s affect on them getting into residency. This does play a factor but not because residencies are looking at student’s and saying “Their school sucks” (at least most of the time). What you see instead is a lot of “I’ve never heard of this school”. Instead the way school plays into residency applications is the amount of opportunity your school provides for you; Do you have access to well-known physicians who have pull in the medical community and will go to bat for you? Does your school have access to a good amount of research opportunities for every student that wants it? Where are the rotation sites?

The great thing about medical education is that it’s standardized. One school might have poorer quality of teaching the same material, but it isn’t like undergrad where you might never learn about certain topics because a field is so broad. A student at newCOM has to learn the same material as Harvard grads one way or another, and has to prove it by passing the exact same board exams. Depending on the quality of 3rd year rotations they might be a little bit behind during 4th year and intern year, but they have to catch up during training or they get dropped. That way everyone leaves residency with the same minimum competency to safely practice in their field. Once you have clinical exposure you’ll be surprised at the range of competency between doctors from the same institutions, whether top 10 or bottom 2.

 

[JoTheGirl]

Military match is pretty competitive, so I wouldn't see that as a viable "back up."

 

[alprazoslam]

Are there/which schools are low enough reputation that one should seriously consider entering the military just to be able find work as a doctor?

For example, would this be the case with Caribbean U.S. medical school ( I forget it's name)? (just an example, I know it's not a D.O. school)

For example, if we take the bottom few D.O. schools which accept the weakest applicants into medical school of all schools, in what ways would their career be hindered if at all (from what I've read reading the forum it seems harder to get into some specialties, but I am not sure for the category of just finding work as a doctor in general)? Should they consider joining the military just be able to increase the odds of finding work?

Don’t expect to do top notch research. Regular doctor jobs area relatively similar but if you want to do HP research do school is a no no in general

 

[_Rod_of_Asclepius_]

If you were accepted to medical school you were able to surpass the “gatekeeper” to becoming a physician.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

If you were accepted to medical school you were able to surpass the “gatekeeper” to becoming a physician.

Lol, premed think on full display here. Tell that to the 20% of your classmates who fail out. At least in DO school, admission committee is not the primary gatekeeper. Residency is, and always has been, the real gatekeeper.

Weren't you just posting something about DO school only being a 'chance' last week and how mny DO's aren't good students? I feel like 2 different people are posting.

 

[alprazoslam]

If you were accepted to medical school you were able to surpass the “gatekeeper” to becoming a physician.

Must by why boards have 100% pass rate


It’s not hard to get into med school lol. Yeah there is some lame bs when it comes to admissions but SOMEBODY should take you. I mean it’s harder to get into med school than most other professional programs (most just need a pulse if even that in nursing) but dude lol boards lay the smack down on people

Plus w al these new do schools opening we are just watering down the poweraide

 

[samac]

.... Am I the only one who doesn’t totally understand the original post?

 

[rg2o3]

.... Am I the only one who doesn’t totally understand the original post?

I am definitely confused. I think maybe they're implying if you go to a school with a "low enough reputation" that you can enter the military to increase chances of getting a more competitive specialty. I am not for certain, but they seem very misinformed.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Lol, premed think on full display here. Tell that to the 20% of your classmates who fail out. At least in DO school, admission committee is not the primary gatekeeper. Residency is, and always has been, the real gatekeeper.

Weren't you just posting something about DO school only being a 'chance' last week and how mny DO's aren't good students? I feel like 2 different people are posting.

20%?! I’m a second year and we’ve lost ~10% (just having to repeat a year, not gone) and that’s considered a wtf high number at my school! Is the general DO fail rate really that high? I thought that was in the realm of having coca pretend to do something.

OP, whether you’re at the “best” or “worst” DO school, you’re just a DO when it comes to residency apps. Your boards and the rest of your CV mean more than your school name ever will.

 

[alprazoslam]

.... Am I the only one who doesn’t totally understand the original post?

I never read it just commenting on the reply’s since too lazy to read OP

 

[libertyyne]

.... Am I the only one who doesn’t totally understand the original post?

OP is wondering if they go to a new school does that mean they have a higher chance of failing to match.
Then op is wondering if they go to that school and are part of the military would that decrease the chances of going unmatched considering military has its own match.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I am definitely confused. I think maybe they're implying if you go to a school with a "low enough reputation" that you can enter the military to increase chances of getting a more competitive specialty. I am not for certain, but they seem very misinformed.

If they did multiple flight surgeon years and added points perhaps this would help. The Military does have to consider DO's equally, but the competition for spots is still fierce and things that might be relatively easier to get on outside, can be very difficult inside (ER or PMR for instance).

I do think going milmed guarantees you a residency. You might do an intern year, then 2 flight surgeon years or the equivalent in branches, before getting to finish your remaining 2 years of FM, and then owe another 2 years. Basically it can make the whole thing a lot longer. Still probably a good deal for primary care.

 

[Goro]

Lol, premed think on full display here. Tell that to the 20% of your classmates who fail out. At least in DO school, admission committee is not the primary gatekeeper. Residency is, and always has been, the real gatekeeper.

Weren't you just posting something about DO school only being a 'chance' last week and how mny DO's aren't good students? I feel like 2 different people are posting.

Can you enlighten us as to which school has a 20% loss rate? That's something that would surely get on COCA's radar.

 

[Aslanim]

Can you enlighten us as to which school has a 20% loss rate? That's something that would surely get on COCA's radar.

Well in the 2016-2017 academic year there were 3 schools with about a 20% loss rate.
By comparing number of graduates in 2017 (see excel sheet: "Graduates by Osteopathic Medical College and Race and Ethnicity 2000-2017") to number of first year students in 2013-2014 academic year (link: https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-.../AppEnrollGrad2012-2017.pdf?sfvrsn=81e2f97_28 ) we have these results:
ACOM: 126/162 = 77.7% completed program on time.
GA-PCOM: 112/141 = 79.4% completed program on time.
WVSOM: 182/217 = 83.8% completed program on time.
Edit: Oh and COCA recently approved a class size increase for ACOM and a new branch campus for GA-PCOM!
https://osteopathic.org/2018/12/19/accreditation-decisions-for-colleges-of-osteopathic-medicine-10/
Countdown to PCOM South Georgia Begins

 

[Goro]

Well in the 2016-2017 academic year there were 3 schools with about a 20% loss rate.
By comparing number of graduates in 2017 (see excel sheet: "Graduates by Osteopathic Medical College and Race and Ethnicity 2000-2017") to number of first year students in 2013-2014 academic year (link: https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-.../AppEnrollGrad2012-2017.pdf?sfvrsn=81e2f97_28 ) we have these results:
ACOM: 126/162 = 77.7% completed program on time.
GA-PCOM: 112/141 = 79.4% completed program on time.
WVSOM: 182/217 = 83.8% completed program on time.

That's not a loss rate, but one for attrition. This is actually common and can even happen at MD schools. BTW, the comment was:

"Lol, premed think on full display here. Tell that to the 20% of your classmates who fail out."

It's not the school's fault if students get sick, get pregnant, or decide to become teaching or research fellows.

Pay attention to match rates. That's far more telling.

 

[Aslanim]

Can you enlighten us as to which school has a 20% loss rate? That's something that would surely get on COCA's radar.

That's not a loss rate, but one for attrition. This is actually common and can even happen at MD schools. BTW, the comment was:

"Lol, premed think on full display here. Tell that to the 20% of your classmates who fail out."

It's not the school's fault if students get sick, get pregnant, or decide to become teaching or research fellows.

Pay attention to match rates. That's far more telling.

Can you enlighten us to which U.S MD school has > 20% loss/attrition rate. I'll accept any reason for the loss/attrition whether it's school's fault or student "got sick, pregnant or decided to become research fellow".

 

[Osminog]

For those graduating DO school in the 2011-2012 year, the average attrition (including withdrawals, dismissals, and leaves of absence) would be: MS1, 3.74%; MS2, 2.45%, MS3, 4.76%; MS4, 2.58%.

For the DO class of 2012, the average overall attrition rate for all schools was approximately 13%.

While this doesn't sound great, it's actually very comparable to the MD attrition rate, which is ~3% per year (~12% over the course of four years of study).

 

[BorntobeDO?]

For those graduating DO school in the 2011-2012 year, the average attrition (including withdrawals, dismissals, and leaves of absence) would be: MS1, 3.74%; MS2, 2.45%, MS3, 4.76%; MS4, 2.58%.

For the DO class of 2012, the average overall attrition rate for all schools was approximately 13%.

While this doesn't sound great, it's actually very comparable to the MD attrition rate, which is ~3% per year (~12% over the course of four years of study).

2012 was nearly a decade ago, when there were barely 30 schools. Do you really think its better now that we are over 50? I know plenty of people who took 'LOA's' to avoid being failed out or 'withdrew' due to 'life' reasons. Amazing how life had such a high correlation with poor performance . At attrition rate of 20% is what it is, nearly 20% of people who enter DO school don't finish. That only 5% don't complete is a lie based on old massaged statistics (i.e. we exclude anyone who withdrew or took a LOA). Only 5% fail out is a lie, a flat out lie.

 

[Goro]

2012 was nearly a decade ago, when there were barely 30 schools. Do you really think its better now that we are over 50? I know plenty of people who took 'LOA's' to avoid being failed out or 'withdrew' due to 'life' reasons. Amazing how life had such a high correlation with poor performance . At attrition rate of 20% is what it is, nearly 20% of people who enter DO school don't finish. That only 5% don't complete is a lie based on old massaged statistics (i.e. we exclude anyone who withdrew or took a LOA). Only 5% fail out is a lie, a flat out lie.

This sure seems to be an agenda with you, BtbDO. Let's try this again. we are not seeing schools with 20% LOSS rates; we are seeing 20% rates in delay of graduation. This is similar to some MD schools. This is NOT necessarily due to academic weakness, but other things, including student life and career choices. My own school had two OMS1s withdraw, and another two take LOA. So that's a ~4% total rate just for a single Class, but only ~2% of a loss rate. All of these were to health issues.

Even LUCOM, a school I like to rag on, with an 11% attrition rate for its inaugural class, still managed to avoid the loss rate you're projecting to the entire COM cohort. So stop tarring the entire profession with a broad, black brush.

 

[Deecee2DO]

This sure seems to be an agenda with you, BtbDO. Let's try this again. we are not seeing schools with 20% LOSS rates; we are seeing 20% rates in delay of graduation. This is similar to some MD schools. This is NOT necessarily due to academic weakness, but other things, including student life and career choices. My own school had two OMS1s withdraw, and another two take LOA. So that's a ~4% total rate just for a single Class, but only ~2% of a loss rate. All of these were to health issues.

Even LUCOM, a school I like to rag on, with an 11% attrition rate for its inaugural class, still managed to avoid the loss rate you're projecting to the entire COM cohort. So stop tarring the entire profession with a broad, black brush.

Thank you

 

[2021Doctor]

A lot of information being put out on attrition rates is incorrect. 4 year graduation rates are not equivalent to attrition rates. If a student takes a year off to do research then they will take 5 years to graduate rather than 4. However, that is not attrition.

 

[Osminog]

2012 was nearly a decade ago, when there were barely 30 schools. Do you really think its better now that we are over 50? I know plenty of people who took 'LOA's' to avoid being failed out or 'withdrew' due to 'life' reasons. Amazing how life had such a high correlation with poor performance . At attrition rate of 20% is what it is, nearly 20% of people who enter DO school don't finish. That only 5% don't complete is a lie based on old massaged statistics (i.e. we exclude anyone who withdrew or took a LOA). Only 5% fail out is a lie, a flat out lie.

I was just using the latest attrition data that AACOMAS has published online.

To mirror what jkdoctor said above: when you subtract a school's four-year graduation rate from 100%, you do not get its attrition rate. The attrition rate only includes withdrawals, leaves of absence, and dismissals; it does not include delays due to extra research years, fellowships, or dual degrees.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

This sure seems to be an agenda with you, BtbDO. Let's try this again. we are not seeing schools with 20% LOSS rates; we are seeing 20% rates in delay of graduation. This is similar to some MD schools. This is NOT necessarily due to academic weakness, but other things, including student life and career choices. My own school had two OMS1s withdraw, and another two take LOA. So that's a ~4% total rate just for a single Class, but only ~2% of a loss rate. All of these were to health issues.

Even LUCOM, a school I like to rag on, with an 11% attrition rate for its inaugural class, still managed to avoid the loss rate you're projecting to the entire COM cohort. So stop tarring the entire profession with a broad, black brush.

Is it me who is doing anything, or merely reporting what our leadership is doing/allowing?

Most schools don't directly publish the attrition amount but even when they do the numbers are suspicious. See this one from WVSOM. It hasn't been updated in 3 years and the entering class are all very different sizes. AACOMAS reports the entering class of 2015 to be 216 students, and 214 for last year (https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/cib/aacom-cib-2019-all-web.pdf?sfvrsn=95e22597_8), yet every year displayed in this chart (https://www.wvsom.edu/sites/default/files/u16/r-Graduate Data Outcome October 18 2017.pdf) shows less. I could believe 1 or 2 less than the max, but no DO school would take 20 less students than they were allowed to. They are cheating to make the rate look better:

Its garbage in garbage out.

You can say my 20% is wrong, and it surely is for some schools, but I bet that its closer to right at any of the newer schools than wrong. And even if it is wrong at this moment, especially with the merger and schools cutting people lose faster, attrition for future classes is going up as admission standards go down, it isn't getting better. If the golden oldies aren't having 95% graduate and place, I guarantee NYIT-ARCOM isn't.

 

[LongApple]

Do people drop out usually because of failing classes?

Failing to get any internships/thinking their chances at getting a residency is low? Failing to pass boards? Maybe the timeline in my head is incorrect and these would have happened later?

 

[Goro]

Do people drop out usually because of failing classes?

Failing to get any internships/thinking their chances at getting a residency is low? Failing to pass boards? Maybe the timeline in my head is incorrect and these would have happened later?

What's with the preoccupation with failure? Most med schools try to salvage people who fail, but it depends upon how much they fail.

For example, at one school I worked at:
Fail one class- remediate exam. If you fail, you repeat the year.
Fail two classes- dismissal

At my school,
Fail one class- remediate exam. If you fail, you repeat the year.
Fail two classes: remediate,but then you have to sign a contract that you can't fail any more exams in the future.
Fail three classes, depending upon how badly you fail, and the explanations (ie, health issues? Distracted by life evens, or poor time mgt or motivation?) you are either dismissed, or told to take an LOA and fix the broken parts, and/or go and heal.

If you failed Boards 2x at my school, you're done. Other schools let you have 3+ chances.

You're not a native English speaker, are you?

Preclinical years are the first two years of med school. That's when the risk of failing out is highest. In years two and four, student take Board exams. Failing these is not good, but not necessarily lethal if one passes ont he retake. But never passing Boards means you don't graduate.

Not getting a residency is an employment thing, like you not getting a job. You still have the medical degree, but you don't get to practice Medicine.

Failing out students is the business model of the Carib schools.

Getting back to your OP, students who attend the newest schools tend ot be the weakest ones, because those schools have trouble attracting the talented students, and so they're desperate to fill seats.

That said, med school is what you make of it. You're not more likely to fail just because you're at a new school...that's on you.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Do people drop out usually because of failing classes?

Failing to get any internships/thinking their chances at getting a residency is low? Failing to pass boards? Maybe the timeline in my head is incorrect and these would have happened later?

Failing classes, yes. Failing to get any internship is basically not a thing for most students at this moment, so that's a no. Failing boards has become an increasing reason to kick people out, but many programs will still allow 3 tries at the boards. I wouldn't be shocked if that was reduced to 2 tries for the majority of students currently incoming as the placement rate continues to drop.

Don't fool yourselves, DO school is following the Caribbean model now. What the Caribs currently do, we will be doing in the near future to try and maintain our advantage over them (which is our placement rate). If that means that students who fail a class don't tend to place, then 2 failures and dismissal will become the standard. If board failures don't place, then we increase the COMSAE requirement and kick out people who fail the boards.

The real question is what will NBOME do about all this. We know they love redistributing the scores to try to create a bell curve, and that they traditionally fail the bottom 6-8%. They raised the passing percentage last year, while lowering the actual scores and maintaining a 400 as a 'pass.' This is dishonest IMO, and I think they should have followed the USMLE's lead and keep the same scale but raise the passing score. Its much easier to understand. A 194 is higher than the old standard of 192, which was higher than the previous 184. Our system appears to be based on saving the egos of former grads by giving current students the same distribution when they are actually scoring better. Its dishonest and cheapening, but that's just my opinion.

If they had any real cohones they would imitate the USLME scoring exactly (i.e. 194 pass upto 280 max etc) and take away all excuses about 'not understanding the COMLEX scoring' from the PD's.

What's with the preoccupation with failure? Most med schools try to salvage people who fail, but it depends upon how much they fail.

For example, at one school I worked at:
Fail one class- remediate exam. If you fail, you repeat the year.
Fail two classes- dismissal

At my school,
Fail one class- remediate exam. If you fail, you repeat the year.
Fail two classes: remediate,but then you have to sign a contract that you can't fail any more exams in the future.
Fail three classes, depending upon how badly you fail, and the explanations (ie, health issues? Distracted by life evens, or poor time mgt or motivation?) you are either dismissed, or told to take an LOA and fix the broken parts, and/or go and heal.

If you failed Boards 2x at my school, you're done. Other schools let you have 3+ chances.

You're not a native English speaker, are you?

Preclinical years are the first two years of med school. That's when the risk of failing out is highest. In years two and four, student take Board exams. Failing these is not good, but not necessarily lethal if one passes ont he retake. But never passing Boards means you don't graduate.

Not getting a residency is an employment thing, like you not getting a job. You still have the medical degree, but you don't get to practice Medicine.

Failing out students is the business model of the Carib schools.

Getting back to your OP, students who attend the newest schools tend ot be the weakest ones, because those schools have trouble attracting the talented students, and so they're desperate to fill seats.

That said, med school is what you make of it. You're not more likely to fail just because you're at a new school...that's on you.

Lot of good info here, but on your final statement, I disagree, at least partly. The reason someone is at newer schools is almost certainly that you were a weaker applicant, therefore putting you at higher risk of failing. Also newer schools tend to have more punative policies like mandatory attendance which I think could definitely impact you. While I agree that any individual who fails, ultimately it was their fault I don't think that someone who got into TCOM is the same as someone in GA-PCOM Moultrie or has the same chance of success. Some curriculum's are clearly superior, and the better students will gravitate towards those schools when given a choice.

 

[Goro]

While people may shy away from new programs, the lure of being close to home is a powerful attractant to even good students. Some people also have a pioneering spirit. So it is somewhat derogatory to assume that all the students at news schools are there only out of desperation.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

While people may shy away from new programs, the lure of being close to home is a powerful attractant to even good students. Some people also have a pioneering spirit. So it is somewhat derogatory to assume that all the students at news schools are there only out of desperation.

Its also somewhat true, as supported by their lower MCAT and GPA averages.

 

[Scribe4Life]

Its also somewhat true, as supported by their lower MCAT and GPA averages.

Goro doesn't seem to be disputing differences in test averages, just pointing out that all of the other factors that govern school choice can lead more highly-qualified students to choose a newer relatively untested program despite being capable of obtaining acceptances elsewhere.

 

[Ukdavis23]

I think it all depends on the type of school you are looking for. Some schools do very well at taking students with poor MCAT, grade point averages, etc and training them past that to do well on boards (though not exceptional) but primarily focusing on clinical/primary care skills to make them great practicing doctors. Others want to get students that are very good board test takers and the emphasis is on testing well to do very well on boards to match into competitive specialities. Really kinda depends on what you want to prioritize first in your medical education, both styles can work very well depending on the individual

 

[Pool]

I think it all depends on the type of school you are looking for. Some schools do very well at taking students with poor MCAT, grade point averages, etc and training them past that to do well on boards (though not exceptional) but primarily focusing on clinical/primary care skills to make them great practicing doctors. Others want to get students that are very good board test takers and the emphasis is on testing well to do very well on boards to match into competitive specialities. Really kinda depends on what you want to prioritize first in your medical education, both styles can work very well depending on the individual

not sure how true that is since teaching towards step, and teaching clinical skills are not mutually exclusive. I doubt that the schools that focus on boards/competitive specialties are any worse at teaching clinical skills than a rural primary care school.

im at a school with a questionable curriculum where the admin shares your opinion, and to me it sounds like they're just trying to compensate for low board scores

 

[BorntobeDO?]

not sure how true that is since teaching towards step, and teaching clinical skills are not mutually exclusive. I doubt that the schools that focus on boards/competitive specialties are any worse at teaching clinical skills than a rural primary care school.

im at a school with a questionable curriculum where the admin shares your opinion, and to me it sounds like they're just trying to compensate for low board scores

What do you hang your hat on when every objective measure says you suck? Subjective stuff like 'clinical skills.' I think any program that emphasizing this is trying to compensate, and not doing a good job at it either.

 

[hallowmann]

20%?! I’m a second year and we’ve lost ~10% (just having to repeat a year, not gone) and that’s considered a wtf high number at my school! Is the general DO fail rate really that high? I thought that was in the realm of having coca pretend to do something.

OP, whether you’re at the “best” or “worst” DO school, you’re just a DO when it comes to residency apps. Your boards and the rest of your CV mean more than your school name ever will.

Its not 20%, its 8-12% total.

Well in the 2016-2017 academic year there were 3 schools with about a 20% loss rate.
By comparing number of graduates in 2017 (see excel sheet: "Graduates by Osteopathic Medical College and Race and Ethnicity 2000-2017") to number of first year students in 2013-2014 academic year (link: https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-.../AppEnrollGrad2012-2017.pdf?sfvrsn=81e2f97_28 ) we have these results:
ACOM: 126/162 = 77.7% completed program on time.
GA-PCOM: 112/141 = 79.4% completed program on time.
WVSOM: 182/217 = 83.8% completed program on time.
Edit: Oh and COCA recently approved a class size increase for ACOM and a new branch campus for GA-PCOM!
https://osteopathic.org/2018/12/19/accreditation-decisions-for-colleges-of-osteopathic-medicine-10/
Countdown to PCOM South Georgia Begins

Thats 4-yr graduation rate, not attrition. They are not the same.

Can you enlighten us to which U.S MD school has > 20% loss/attrition rate. I'll accept any reason for the loss/attrition whether it's school's fault or student "got sick, pregnant or decided to become research fellow".

Per this AAMC report, 4-yr graduation rate averages for MD schools, even just looking at those that did only the MD degree (not counting combined degrees) is in the low 80s. Total graduation rate is ~96%, making attrition 3-4%, compared to the DO 8-9%.
https://www.aamc.org/download/492842/data/graduationratesandattritionratesofu.s.medicalstudents.pdf

For those graduating DO school in the 2011-2012 year, the average attrition (including withdrawals, dismissals, and leaves of absence) would be: MS1, 3.74%; MS2, 2.45%, MS3, 4.76%; MS4, 2.58%.

For the DO class of 2012, the average overall attrition rate for all schools was approximately 13%.

While this doesn't sound great, it's actually very comparable to the MD attrition rate, which is ~3% per year (~12% over the course of four years of study).

You can't just add percentages like that, you have to correct for the loss (kind of like compound interest). The last time I did the calculation on the 2012 data, I believe it was 8-9%, which is why schools are allowed to recruit 108% x their chartered seats, because its assumed out of 162, 12 will not complete the program, making the final number of graduates 150 (the usual 1st yr seats for DO schools).

 

[Osminog]

You can't just add percentages like that, you have to correct for the loss (kind of like compound interest). The last time I did the calculation on the 2012 data, I believe it was 8-9%, which is why schools are allowed to recruit 108% x their chartered seats, because its assumed out of 162, 12 will not complete the program, making the final number of graduates 150 (the usual 1st yr seats for DO schools).

I didn't "just add the percentages." I corrected for the loss.

Again, the DO class of 2012 (using data from the years they would have been M1s, M2s, M3s, and M4s) had the following attrition rates: MS1, 3.74%; MS2, 2.45%, MS3, 4.76%; MS4, 2.58%.

Let's assume that the average starting class size for the DO class of 2012 was 150 students:

150*(1-0.0374) = 144.4 (remaining after M1 attrition)
→ 144.4*(1-0.0245) = 140.9 (remaining after M2 attrition)
→ 140.9*(1-0.0476) = 134.2 (remaining after M3 attrition)
→ 134.2*(1-0.0258) = 130.7 (remaining after M4 attrition, i.e., graduating)

100%*(starting class - graduating class)/starting class = 100%*(150 - 130.7)/150 = 12.9%

As I said, for the DO class of 2012, the average overall attrition rate for all schools was approximately 13%.

 

[drfeelgood]

2012 was nearly a decade ago, when there were barely 30 schools. Do you really think its better now that we are over 50? I know plenty of people who took 'LOA's' to avoid being failed out or 'withdrew' due to 'life' reasons. Amazing how life had such a high correlation with poor performance . At attrition rate of 20% is what it is, nearly 20% of people who enter DO school don't finish. That only 5% don't complete is a lie based on old massaged statistics (i.e. we exclude anyone who withdrew or took a LOA). Only 5% fail out is a lie, a flat out lie.

I knew a guy in my class that failed his Biochem class in OMS 1 and got kicked out of WesternU . It was sad because he had a BioChem degree from UCSD. Better $27,000 in debt then $115,000. We started school in 1998 so tuition was a bit cheaper.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

What do you hang your hat on when every objective measure says you suck? Subjective stuff like 'clinical skills.' I think any program that emphasizing this is trying to compensate, and not doing a good job at it either.

I go to one of those DO schools where we spent a ton of time on OMM and the clinical skills class.

The funny thing is that I have to unlearn all of these clinical SP routines and learn the proper exam from the real experts on the ward. No thanks to my school on that end.

Fortunately, I’m quick to adapt and think on my feet. Most of my preceptors think that I’m a clown on the first couple of days and end up liking me near the end.

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

I knew a guy in my class that failed his Biochem class in OMS 1 and got kicked out of WesternU . It was sad because he had a BioChem degree from UCSD. Better $27,000 in debt then $115,000. We started school in 1998 so tuition was a bit cheaper.

Dang how in the heck do you fail a class you have a degree in? Bad test anxiety?

 

[DO2015CA]

I knew a guy in my class that failed his Biochem class in OMS 1 and got kicked out of WesternU . It was sad because he had a BioChem degree from UCSD. Better $27,000 in debt then $115,000. We started school in 1998 so tuition was a bit cheaper.

Did he not study thinking he could ace it

 

[Goro]

Dang how in the heck do you fail a class you have a degree in? Bad test anxiety?

I suspect that there was a lot more going on than merely failing a single course

 

[drfeelgood]

I suspect that there was a lot more going on than merely failing a single course

He had some type of issues with test taking so he always took the exam in a separate room with no time limit...

 

[Goro]

He had some type of issues with test taking so he always took the exam in a separate room with no time limit...

My gut tells me that he failed more than one course. Dismissing a student for a single failure is extreme.