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The thing I hate about these salary/income questions is that it's always to compare the professions to see which one has the highest income.
Amen, amen, a thousand times amen.
The thing I hate about these salary/income questions is that it's always to compare the professions to see which one has the highest income.
I can't speak for pharmacy but financial paybacks from a career in dentistry fall short of desires. Don't get me wrong; I'm in full support for the dental profession but we can never get better by lying to ourselves.
Dental school debt is only the beginning of worries. After graduation, dentists start out anywhere btwn $40k - $90k per year. This salary range, for the most part, is above the median US salary but isn't anything special for a job requiring doctoral education; it's merely on par with other professional careers.
Dentists will earn more with more yrs of experience but, when working as an associate, salaries commonly hit the ceiling at around $120k. And this is all during debt payback, taking continuing education to keep licensures alive, and dealing with the future of restrictive covenants imposed by employers.
Ultimately, the key here is eventually establishing one's own dental practice to increase earning potential. But again, there's a huge amount of initiative and sacrifice required, as the average dental office can initially cost $400k and can require long hours at first. It'll only be a matter of time until these dentists eventually hit the mid-high end of $100k - $200k/yr. Assuming that a dentist entered d-school right after college, his/her golden years in wealth will probably be at the age of 40s/50s.
Sure, there will be dentists making way below or way higher than what I described as the norm but, like everything else in life, there will always be anecdotal stats. So don't get started with me on how your sister got a $110k/yr job right of d-school or how there's a rural town that's seeking an associate for $150k/yr. ( and by the way, if a job ad offers a salary that's too good to be true, it probably is )
With all that said, it all boils down to how much you enjoy doing dentistry and whether the physical/challenging demands of dentistry justifies the norm salaries. Many patients are difficult to handle and are weary of dentists, let alone the physical demands of dentistry. The "automatic, $ 150k-200k/yr" ( more toward the $150k end in actuality ) lifestyle is really there but it will take some substantial time and requires the type of initiative/investment that tends to turn young people away from careers in dentistry, hence the reason for stagnant applicant pools for d-schools.
Forgot to add one more thing: if you grew up here, have a proper US education, and are keen for jobs with the best mix of lifestyle and salary, you can do way better than dentistry. And notice how most dental students are from 1st generation immigrant families, mostly of conservative cultures that press for jobs in medical prestige. ( not that dentistry is as 'prestigious' as medicine ) People of other cultures/families don't envy the perks in dentistry as compared to other professional careers. So really, don't get too upbeat about this career.
Forgot to add one more thing: if you grew up here, have a proper US education, and are keen for jobs with the best mix of lifestyle and salary, you can do way better than dentistry.
All valid points. A very realistic view. If you enjoy doing dentistry, it can be rewarding, and you can make a nice income.
That 400k for opening an office, that's if you're not purchasing property, too. Otherwise, the investment will be significantly more. I know a lot of dentists, myself included, that could not afford to purchase property when purchasing and upgrading a practice. Many have been hit with leasing problems and forced to move. More expenses!!! Even if a dentist is generating an income of $200,000+ his/her practice may be quite leveraged. It's not something they can easily choose to walk away from. It's a very big commitment.
I have to say that your observation about 1st generation, immigrant families finding the medical/dental field prestigious, is accurate. I am of English decent and became an US citizen over 37 years ago. A career in the medical field was a great source of pride for my family. However, their understanding of the economics of obtaining an education and the cost of establishing a practice in the U.S. left a lot to be desired! Coming from a country with socialized medicine, their understanding was understandably limited.
I can't speak for pharmacy but financial paybacks from a career in dentistry fall short of desires. Don't get me wrong; I'm in full support for the dental profession but we can never get better by lying to ourselves.
Dental school debt is only the beginning of worries. After graduation, dentists start out anywhere btwn $40k - $90k per year. This salary range, for the most part, is above the median US salary but isn't anything special for a job requiring doctoral education; it's merely on par with other professional careers.
Dentists will earn more with more yrs of experience but, when working as an associate, salaries commonly hit the ceiling at around $120k. And this is all during debt payback, taking continuing education to keep licensures alive, and dealing with the future of restrictive covenants imposed by employers.
Ultimately, the key here is eventually establishing one's own dental practice to increase earning potential. But again, there's a huge amount of initiative and sacrifice required, as the average dental office can initially cost $400k and can require long hours at first. It'll only be a matter of time until these dentists eventually hit the mid-high end of $100k - $200k/yr. Assuming that a dentist entered d-school right after college, his/her golden years in wealth will probably be at the age of 40s/50s.
Sure, there will be dentists making way below or way higher than what I described as the norm but, like everything else in life, there will always be anecdotal stats. So don't get started with me on how your sister got a $110k/yr job right of d-school or how there's a rural town that's seeking an associate for $150k/yr. ( and by the way, if a job ad offers a salary that's too good to be true, it probably is )
With all that said, it all boils down to how much you enjoy doing dentistry and whether the physical/challenging demands of dentistry justifies the norm salaries. Many patients are difficult to handle and are weary of dentists, let alone the physical demands of dentistry. The "automatic, $ 150k-200k/yr" ( more toward the $150k end in actuality ) lifestyle is really there but it will take some substantial time and requires the type of initiative/investment that tends to turn young people away from careers in dentistry, hence the reason for stagnant applicant pools for d-schools.
Forgot to add one more thing: if you grew up here, have a proper US education, and are keen for jobs with the best mix of lifestyle and salary, you can do way better than dentistry. And notice how most dental students are from 1st generation immigrant families, mostly of conservative cultures that press for jobs in medical prestige. ( not that dentistry is as 'prestigious' as medicine ) People of other cultures/families don't envy the perks in dentistry as compared to other professional careers. So really, don't get too upbeat about this career.
OMG, predents and dental students are the most shallow people that I've seen...What's so prestigious about the profession when all you will ever do is look at dirty peoples' mouth all day long??
Just my 2 cents
The thing I hate about these salary/income questions is that it's always to compare the professions to see which one has the highest income. This makes it so everyone will then try to become a member of that profession (greedy asses who have no real interest in the profession). This will then make it so that profession becomes super saturated (medical profession) and then everyone will post more salary questions on forums to start the cycle all over again! I do not want it to happen with dentistry, so I try not to correct comments regarding their lives.
Most businesses will require significant capital investment. The dental profession is hardly unique in that. One can always be an associate.
My brother just bought a SL500 (he's 27).
I'm curious... what other jobs did you have in mind? I'd like to know what careers I have overlooked. I have a hard time coming up with anything that has similar working hours and income potential.
By the time you're free of debts and running a stable practice/salary, you'll be in your mid-40s if you entered d-school right after college.
Right again.
More dentists, even those that start DS right after college, are waiting longer, sometimes 5-10 years after graduation, to make the leap to purchasing or starting a practice of their own.
Many dental students are now starting dental school in their thirties. This will also set back the date of purchasing and paying off a practice.
Mid-fourties may be optimistic, but not impossible, and there will be those that accompish this feat in their thirties. Nothing is set in stone.
I doubt many dentists will end up paying off their thirty year school loans any sooner, even with the best intentions. Other purchases, expenses or needs may always be more pressing. Many will be in debt, related to their going to dental school decision, well into their mid-fifties, but they will also have a profession, too. It's just a bit of a trade-off and a choice.
Everyone has a choice with regard to their debt repayment. Each will handle it with respect to their own needs or desires.
After graduation, dentists start out anywhere btwn $40k - $90k per year.
Your numbers are way off. I graduated in may and I am earning less than 20k working greater than 40 hours a week. I love what I do though and would take this path again in a heart beat.
u cant be serious...
I am totally serious. This is a wonderful profession and I love going in every day.
I say this because that 5,000k "spread" salary gap between dentists and pharmacists is inaccurate information and needed to be cleared up.
Hi GiveMeDMD, I found it!!! It was a based on a 2003 survey. Still meaningless, but at least I found the source I knew if I kept looking, I'd find this meaningless survey. I can't believe I saved it and got lucky finding it too!
Do what you love and the money will follow" is great in theory, but the truth of the matter is, certain jobs and fields simply pay more. The Bureau of Labor Statistics National Compensation Survey, published in August 2004, showed that white-collar earnings -- which averaged $21.85 per hour -- were the highest among occupational groups. Blue-collar pay averaged $15.03 per hour, while the hourly pay of service occupations averaged just $10.40.
Though many of these occupations require an advanced degree, there are jobs at every education level that pay more than other jobs for workers with similar levels of schooling. Here, courtesy of the Employment Policy Foundation, is a look at the best-paying occupations at varying education levels:
Top Paying Jobs Overall The jobs that pay the most require at least a four-year college degree. According to the Employment Policy Foundation, the nation's 12 top-paying jobs -- and the mean annual income reported in 2003 (the most recent year data was available) for each -- were:
Physicians and surgeons $147,000 Aircraft pilots $133,500 Chief executives $116,000 Electrical and electronic engineers $112,000 Lawyers and judges $99,800 Dentists $90,000 Pharmacists $85,500 Management analysts $84,700 Computer and information system managers $83,000 Financial analysts, managers and advisers $84,000 Marketing and sales managers $80,000 Education administrators $80,000
Though many of these occupations require an advanced degree, there are jobs at every education level that pay more than other jobs for workers with similar levels of schooling. Here, courtesy of the Employment Policy Foundation, is a look at the best-paying occupations at varying education levels:
Top Paying Jobs That Do Not Require a High School Degree These jobs tend to require substantial on-the-job training and work experience rather than formal education and schooling:
Industrial production managers $36,000 Bailiffs, correctional officers and jailers $36,400 Paralegals and legal assistants $36,400 Drafters $36,000 Construction manager $33,600 Electricians $31,900 advertisement George - Women's Cosmopolitan Zip Jacket $26.82 Walmart.com
More Women's Jackets ▪ Kenneth Cole - Center Stage from Zappos.com Sale $119.90
▪ Disney - Mickey & Friends ''Family of Friends'' from Disneydirect.com $16.00
Top Paying Jobs for High School Graduates These occupations emphasize work experience and on-the-job training rather than formal education:
Computer software engineers $58,900 Computer/information systems managers $56,400 Computer programmers $55,000 Network systems and data communications analysts $49,000 General and operations managers $48,000 Database, network and computer systems administrators $48,000
Top Paying Jobs for a Two-Year College Degree The following jobs tend to be technical in nature, emphasizing skills developed on the job as well as job-specific training and certifications:
Healthcare practitioners $66,000 Business analysts $58,000 Electrical and electronic engineers $57,000 Mechanical engineers $56,800 General and operations managers $54,000 Computer and information systems managers $50,400
"A look at expected earnings over a lifetime shows the economic benefit of higher education attainment," says Tony Carnevale, who chaired President Clinton's National Commission for Employment Policy and authored several books, including America and the New Economy: How New Competitive Standards are Radically Changing American Workplaces.
A person with a doctoral or professional degree, for example, is expected to earn about $3 million over the course of his or her working life while a person without a high school diploma is expected to earn less than $1 million.
"Despite an increasing supply of well-educated workers, the college wage premium has nearly doubled since 1980, largely because of the added value of a college education in the new knowledge economy," adds Carnevale.
The Employment Policy Forum concurs, but stresses that these numbers are only averages. Individual earnings depend on many factors including geographic location, employer size (average hourly earnings ranged from $15.06 in organizations employing between one and 99 workers to $24.09 in those with 2,500 workers or more), industry (workers in goods-producing industries earned $18.46 an hour vs. those in service-producing industries who earned $16.44 an hour) and the worker's skills and characteristics.
Kate Lorenz is the article and advice editor for CareerBuilder.com. She researches and writes about job search strategy, career management, hiring trends and workplace issues. Other writers contributed to this article.
I like how there's talk of pharmacists actually having a better career/lifestyle than dentists. It allows for dentists to stay living like kings and queens.
Once the taxman has visited and all is said and done the guy making a 100K a year and the guy making 300K a year are not really that far apart. They are certainly not so far apart that their life style is all that different. One is certainly not living in a mansion with a private jet while the other is living in squalor. So pick your profession based on what you really enjoy NOT what you think is going to put some extra dough in your pocket.
You're right. But the marginally better payoffs from dentistry aren't anything to brag about. ( medicine is different for many reasons but I don't want to raise ire here )
Most professional careers ( ex. MBAs, engineering- most engineers eventually enter management ) are stagnant on the upper end of the 75k - 110k/yr salaries + perks, with only a few yrs of experience. ( in NYC, MBAs with good track exp make well beyond even physicians ) Experience in these areas allow for skills that make you highly employable. Although it's tough finding a job if you're a novice, seasoned veterans are always in demand.
Dental associates, old or young, hover around 75k - 120k/yr. The salary difference between dentists and other careers isn't all that significant. Tack onto that the stress of working under an owner who limits you to certain trmts and restrictive covenants, the physical demands of the job ( it doesn't seem like an issue at first but this will get to you ), and the need for taking cont. ed.
Should you eventually own a practice, that can amount to 150k/yr in salary. But the initial investment, as stated by others, can dwarf even tuition costs at private dental schools. With ~2/3 overhead costs, this isn't as easy as some people make it out to be. By the time you're free of debts and running a stable practice/salary, you'll be in your mid-40s if you entered d-school right after college.
Leaving career enjoyment aside, if you were to evaluate dentistry strictly on financial terms, it's not that impressive but you'll be alright.
But most pre-dents shouldn't have to worry. After all, what other oppportunities are there for second-tier science majors and for those of a cultural background with an obsession for the med field?
I'm just kidding.
You're right. But the marginally better payoffs from dentistry aren't anything to brag about. ( medicine is different for many reasons but I don't want to raise ire here )
Most professional careers ( ex. MBAs, engineering- most engineers eventually enter management ) are stagnant on the upper end of the 75k - 110k/yr salaries + perks, with only a few yrs of experience. ( in NYC, MBAs with good track exp make well beyond even physicians ) Experience in these areas allow for skills that make you highly employable. Although it's tough finding a job if you're a novice, seasoned veterans are always in demand.
Dental associates, old or young, hover around 75k - 120k/yr. The salary difference between dentists and other careers isn't all that significant. Tack onto that the stress of working under an owner who limits you to certain trmts and restrictive covenants, the physical demands of the job ( it doesn't seem like an issue at first but this will get to you ), and the need for taking cont. ed.
Should you eventually own a practice, that can amount to 150k/yr in salary. But the initial investment, as stated by others, can dwarf even tuition costs at private dental schools. With ~2/3 overhead costs, this isn't as easy as some people make it out to be. By the time you're free of debts and running a stable practice/salary, you'll be in your mid-40s if you entered d-school right after college.
Leaving career enjoyment aside, if you were to evaluate dentistry strictly on financial terms, it's not that impressive but you'll be alright.
But most pre-dents shouldn't have to worry. After all, what other oppportunities are there for second-tier science majors and for those of a cultural background with an obsession for the med field?
I'm just kidding.
While I'm happy for your brother, his car doesn't prove anything, even more so if he has student debts on his head. Anyone who is creditworthy and has a proper job can get financing for a posh car.
my friend will graduate this spring as a pharm and he just signed a 3 year deal worth 1 million dollars
( not that dentistry is as 'prestigious' as medicine )
Please don't feed the troll.Possibly the most accurate post ever on the dental forums.
Please don't feed the troll.
I think if you are entrepreneurial and a good businessperson, you can do well in dentistry. I like the idea of running a business and have grown up with that kind of background. I know of one dentist who is an enterpreneur in other aspects of business with ownership of several franchises.
First and foremost, I think I would enjoy the actual work that a dentist does. Secondly, what appeals to me, is the freedom to run my own business. You would have to pay me a LOT to be a pharmacist at Wal-Mart or a doctor in managed care. It is a career choice and a lifestyle choice. Not just about $$ to me.
I'm also not in my 20s anymore, so maybe have a different perspective.
Erm... how much will you be living on, while paying off your $200K+ debt, and paying off your own (let's say) $500K practice? Not to mention your mortgage, and other 4 figure payments on the side.Graduate ~27, associate for 1-2 years, buy in or scratch start-up. You will have the practice paid off in mid to late 30s.
Erm... how much will you be living on, while paying off your $200K+ debt, and paying off your own (let's say) $500K practice? Not to mention your mortgage, and other 4 figure payments on the side.
Show me the money!
Dental associates, old or young, hover around 75k - 120k/yr. The salary difference between dentists and other careers isn't all that significant. Tack onto that the stress of working under an owner who limits you to certain trmts and restrictive covenants, the physical demands of the job ( it doesn't seem like an issue at first but this will get to you ), and the need for taking cont. ed.
Is this a testimonial? or more like what you've heard from other sources? because I haven't met anyone from the real world (a dentist/associate) who could tell me what it's really like when it comes to income. I'm not implying that your numbers are wrong, just want to see how this works inside the profession.When you graduate if you work 5 days a week (240 days a year) and produce 1500 a day and take home 30% of that you will have a salary of $108,000. After taxes that is over $6,000 dollars a month. You take out $2500 for student loans and you still have around $4,000 dollars a month to live off of. That is not bad. And that is bare bones pathetic dentistry. 5 years out of dental school you should be producing $3-5,000 a day which is $216,000-360,000 a year. There is plenty of money in dentistry for all.
Is this a testimonial? or more like what you've heard from other sources? because I haven't met anyone from the real world (a dentist/associate) who could tell me what it's really like when it comes to income. I'm not implying that your numbers are wrong, just want to see how this works inside the profession.
Also, aren't you leaving out other factors, i.e. location (city versus small towns), community (rich versus underserved), business skills (savvy versus normal), experience (GPR versus straight out of school), etc.
...which means your income would be around $201,000-227,000.
The hardest thing in dentistry is getting patients in the chair. Here is an example of how easy it is to make money.
Honestly, it is not that hard to make money in dentistry. I work for a doctor who was mad all day yesterday because the office "only" produced a little over $5,000. You may make less than $100,000 your first year out of dental school, but that is only because your clinical skills are not up to speed. After that first year you should be fast enough in most things to get your salary to at least $150,000. I posted this example in another thread:
If you work 240 days a year (48 weeks, 5 days a week. That gives you one month off a year), you should be making well over $100,000 a year as a dentist. Let's pretend that all you do is drill and fill. Just cavaties all day long. The only supplies you buy are for filling cavaties. That is all you do, you refer everything else out. You have one assistant, one front desk person, and one hygienist. That's all the employees you have. You are a small, small office. Your hygienist sees 5 patients a day. Let's say she sees 1 SRP and 4 Prophies and x-rays on 2 of the 4 patients. You see 10 patients a day, all with 1 filling. So you produce each day:
1 SRP: $150 a quad = $600
4 Prophies: $100 x 4 = $400
2 sets of x-rays: $50 x 2 = $100
8 fillings = $100 x 10 = $1000
Your office production = $2,100 a day, (240 x $2,100) $504,000 a year
Your overhead will be very, very small with three employees and two chairs. They say the average dental office is around 65% so we will go with that number, even though with only three employees (let's say you give them no benefits, a lot of practices don't) your overhead would only be about 45-50%. So, after you drill and fill all day long, you take home around 35% of what you produced. Let's say for arguments sake you only take home 25%. So, you take home at the end of the year around $126,000.
Also, if this was your practice, I would suggest you just fire your hygienist, train your assistant and fd person in both jobs and only have 2 employees and put the $50,000 you would have paid the hygienist back into your pocket and see their patients.
Now, this estimate is very, very low. If this was you and this was reality, your overhead would not be 75% as this example says. Your practice overhead would probably be 55-60% which means your income would be around $201,000-227,000. You may struggle that first year, you may struggle those first 5 years. But even after your seven years of struggling, you will be making (by this example, which is a low estimate) $15,000+ a month. And remember, by your example you will only be around 35 years old. Thirty-five and making about what a teacher makes every month. Not too bad. Better than 95% of the jobs out there.
So, the debt is big in dentistry, but if you are smart, the payoff is even bigger.
He did say the estimates were very low.That's all!?!? Weak.....
Does your overhead here includes payments to the practice bought over? Also, how much and how long a fresh graduate ends up paying a study loan, say $300k in this instance?
He did say the estimates were very low.
Why? You know other ways to make more?
Business school, ambulance chasing lawyer, sell crack...