question about salary

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i like the way this post is going, keep it running:laugh:
 
OMG, predents and dental students are the most shallow people that I've seen...What's so prestigious about the profession when all you will ever do is look at dirty peoples' mouth all day long??
Just my 2 cents 🙂
 
I can't speak for pharmacy but financial paybacks from a career in dentistry fall short of desires. Don't get me wrong; I'm in full support for the dental profession but we can never get better by lying to ourselves.

Dental school debt is only the beginning of worries. After graduation, dentists start out anywhere btwn $40k - $90k per year. This salary range, for the most part, is above the median US salary but isn't anything special for a job requiring doctoral education; it's merely on par with other professional careers.

Dentists will earn more with more yrs of experience but, when working as an associate, salaries commonly hit the ceiling at around $120k. And this is all during debt payback, taking continuing education to keep licensures alive, and dealing with the future of restrictive covenants imposed by employers.

Ultimately, the key here is eventually establishing one's own dental practice to increase earning potential. But again, there's a huge amount of initiative and sacrifice required, as the average dental office can initially cost $400k and can require long hours at first. It'll only be a matter of time until these dentists eventually hit the mid-high end of $100k - $200k/yr. Assuming that a dentist entered d-school right after college, his/her golden years in wealth will probably be at the age of 40s/50s.

Sure, there will be dentists making way below or way higher than what I described as the norm but, like everything else in life, there will always be anecdotal stats. So don't get started with me on how your sister got a $110k/yr job right of d-school or how there's a rural town that's seeking an associate for $150k/yr. ( and by the way, if a job ad offers a salary that's too good to be true, it probably is )

With all that said, it all boils down to how much you enjoy doing dentistry and whether the physical/challenging demands of dentistry justifies the norm salaries. Many patients are difficult to handle and are weary of dentists, let alone the physical demands of dentistry. The "automatic, $ 150k-200k/yr" ( more toward the $150k end in actuality ) lifestyle is really there but it will take some substantial time and requires the type of initiative/investment that tends to turn young people away from careers in dentistry, hence the reason for stagnant applicant pools for d-schools.

Forgot to add one more thing: if you grew up here, have a proper US education, and are keen for jobs with the best mix of lifestyle and salary, you can do way better than dentistry. And notice how most dental students are from 1st generation immigrant families, mostly of conservative cultures that press for jobs in medical prestige. ( not that dentistry is as 'prestigious' as medicine ) People of other cultures/families don't envy the perks in dentistry as compared to other professional careers. So really, don't get too upbeat about this career.
 
Its all sort of funny reading what you guys have posted here..
I live in NZ. Here the ave income for dentists is around 80K NZD which converts to about 50K USD... plus that we pay 39% tax (BTW in aussie its 49%!!!) As for pharmacy they start off with a min wage ~11 bucks an hour during 1 year internship. Thereafter around 50K NZD depending on where you're employed. SO all you Americans, consider yourselves lucky!

Regarding the issue of who earns more, I haven't a single doubt in my mind that in most cases, dentists earn more whether as employees or ers. And people downunder don't seem to care about it, let alone argue against this.
Because
A) Its (as we all know here) much harder to get into a dental school than a pharmacy school. Only the very top students can barely make it into dentals whereas the doors pretty much open for any average joe at the pharmacy end...
B) Longer education... Unfortunately dentists have to go thru 5yrs of education compared to 4 yrs of pharmacy.. Plus that the fees for the dental schools are about double that of pharmacy schools.
C) The sort of work they do is different. Dentists are oral physicians as well as surgeons. They are in the position of responsibility- from TP, Dx, Tx and review/aftercare.. Pharmacists only carry out what doctors have instructed them to do i.e. prescriptions (oh, they can sell OTC's and cosmetics too!)

I'm not saying that dentists are better and hence they deserve better. Pharmacy is of course an honourable profession and we can't live without them. The point that I'm trying to make here is that these are two very different professions- they have different requirements and responsibilities. The only similarity is that they both work in the health sector. Therefore it'd be too simplistic to compare the two- It's like comparing different parts of the human body- all parts are important but some get more attention and love from the spirit within lol.

Best wishes for the new year!
 
markovnikov999 said:
I can't speak for pharmacy but financial paybacks from a career in dentistry fall short of desires. Don't get me wrong; I'm in full support for the dental profession but we can never get better by lying to ourselves.

Dental school debt is only the beginning of worries. After graduation, dentists start out anywhere btwn $40k - $90k per year. This salary range, for the most part, is above the median US salary but isn't anything special for a job requiring doctoral education; it's merely on par with other professional careers.

Dentists will earn more with more yrs of experience but, when working as an associate, salaries commonly hit the ceiling at around $120k. And this is all during debt payback, taking continuing education to keep licensures alive, and dealing with the future of restrictive covenants imposed by employers.

Ultimately, the key here is eventually establishing one's own dental practice to increase earning potential. But again, there's a huge amount of initiative and sacrifice required, as the average dental office can initially cost $400k and can require long hours at first. It'll only be a matter of time until these dentists eventually hit the mid-high end of $100k - $200k/yr. Assuming that a dentist entered d-school right after college, his/her golden years in wealth will probably be at the age of 40s/50s.

Sure, there will be dentists making way below or way higher than what I described as the norm but, like everything else in life, there will always be anecdotal stats. So don't get started with me on how your sister got a $110k/yr job right of d-school or how there's a rural town that's seeking an associate for $150k/yr. ( and by the way, if a job ad offers a salary that's too good to be true, it probably is )

With all that said, it all boils down to how much you enjoy doing dentistry and whether the physical/challenging demands of dentistry justifies the norm salaries. Many patients are difficult to handle and are weary of dentists, let alone the physical demands of dentistry. The "automatic, $ 150k-200k/yr" ( more toward the $150k end in actuality ) lifestyle is really there but it will take some substantial time and requires the type of initiative/investment that tends to turn young people away from careers in dentistry, hence the reason for stagnant applicant pools for d-schools.

Forgot to add one more thing: if you grew up here, have a proper US education, and are keen for jobs with the best mix of lifestyle and salary, you can do way better than dentistry. And notice how most dental students are from 1st generation immigrant families, mostly of conservative cultures that press for jobs in medical prestige. ( not that dentistry is as 'prestigious' as medicine ) People of other cultures/families don't envy the perks in dentistry as compared to other professional careers. So really, don't get too upbeat about this career.
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All valid points. A very realistic view. If you enjoy doing dentistry, it can be rewarding, and you can make a nice income.

That 400k for opening an office, that's if you're not purchasing property, too. Otherwise, the investment will be significantly more. I know a lot of dentists, myself included, that could not afford to purchase property when purchasing and upgrading a practice. Many have been hit with leasing problems and forced to move. More expenses!!! Even if a dentist is generating an income of $200,000+ his/her practice may be quite leveraged. It's not something they can easily choose to walk away from. It's a very big commitment.

I have to say that your observation about 1st generation, immigrant families finding the medical/dental field prestigious, is accurate. I am of English decent and became an US citizen over 37 years ago. A career in the medical field was a great source of pride for my family. However, their understanding of the economics of obtaining an education and the cost of establishing a practice in the U.S. left a lot to be desired! Coming from a country with socialized medicine, their understanding was understandably limited.
 
markovnikov999 said:
Forgot to add one more thing: if you grew up here, have a proper US education, and are keen for jobs with the best mix of lifestyle and salary, you can do way better than dentistry.
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I'm curious... what other jobs did you have in mind? I'd like to know what careers I have overlooked. I have a hard time coming up with anything that has similar working hours and income potential.
 
Lesley said:
All valid points. A very realistic view. If you enjoy doing dentistry, it can be rewarding, and you can make a nice income.

That 400k for opening an office, that's if you're not purchasing property, too. Otherwise, the investment will be significantly more. I know a lot of dentists, myself included, that could not afford to purchase property when purchasing and upgrading a practice. Many have been hit with leasing problems and forced to move. More expenses!!! Even if a dentist is generating an income of $200,000+ his/her practice may be quite leveraged. It's not something they can easily choose to walk away from. It's a very big commitment.

I have to say that your observation about 1st generation, immigrant families finding the medical/dental field prestigious, is accurate. I am of English decent and became an US citizen over 37 years ago. A career in the medical field was a great source of pride for my family. However, their understanding of the economics of obtaining an education and the cost of establishing a practice in the U.S. left a lot to be desired! Coming from a country with socialized medicine, their understanding was understandably limited.
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Most businesses will require significant capital investment. The dental profession is hardly unique in that. One can always be an associate.
 
I've never heard of any dentists making $40k/yr after graduation. Every dentist I know of (I know of plenty) is successful. Maybe I'm just one of the lucky few that gets to know all the successful people of a profession, although I doubt it. Those numbers regarding associate pay must be for general dentists; and even then that's only going to last for a few years at most, before you take over the practice or become partner. All this talk about trying to start up your own practice is totally unnecessary, being that practices are sprouting up for ownership all over. I know of newly-graduated general dentists and specialty residents practing general dentistry who have all said their lives couldn't be better. My brother just bought a SL500 (he's 27). What I'm saying is, you're acting like it's more of a headache going into dentistry than it is pleasurable once you get going.

markovnikov999 said:
I can't speak for pharmacy but financial paybacks from a career in dentistry fall short of desires. Don't get me wrong; I'm in full support for the dental profession but we can never get better by lying to ourselves.

Dental school debt is only the beginning of worries. After graduation, dentists start out anywhere btwn $40k - $90k per year. This salary range, for the most part, is above the median US salary but isn't anything special for a job requiring doctoral education; it's merely on par with other professional careers.

Dentists will earn more with more yrs of experience but, when working as an associate, salaries commonly hit the ceiling at around $120k. And this is all during debt payback, taking continuing education to keep licensures alive, and dealing with the future of restrictive covenants imposed by employers.

Ultimately, the key here is eventually establishing one's own dental practice to increase earning potential. But again, there's a huge amount of initiative and sacrifice required, as the average dental office can initially cost $400k and can require long hours at first. It'll only be a matter of time until these dentists eventually hit the mid-high end of $100k - $200k/yr. Assuming that a dentist entered d-school right after college, his/her golden years in wealth will probably be at the age of 40s/50s.

Sure, there will be dentists making way below or way higher than what I described as the norm but, like everything else in life, there will always be anecdotal stats. So don't get started with me on how your sister got a $110k/yr job right of d-school or how there's a rural town that's seeking an associate for $150k/yr. ( and by the way, if a job ad offers a salary that's too good to be true, it probably is )

With all that said, it all boils down to how much you enjoy doing dentistry and whether the physical/challenging demands of dentistry justifies the norm salaries. Many patients are difficult to handle and are weary of dentists, let alone the physical demands of dentistry. The "automatic, $ 150k-200k/yr" ( more toward the $150k end in actuality ) lifestyle is really there but it will take some substantial time and requires the type of initiative/investment that tends to turn young people away from careers in dentistry, hence the reason for stagnant applicant pools for d-schools.

Forgot to add one more thing: if you grew up here, have a proper US education, and are keen for jobs with the best mix of lifestyle and salary, you can do way better than dentistry. And notice how most dental students are from 1st generation immigrant families, mostly of conservative cultures that press for jobs in medical prestige. ( not that dentistry is as 'prestigious' as medicine ) People of other cultures/families don't envy the perks in dentistry as compared to other professional careers. So really, don't get too upbeat about this career.
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Don't get me wrong; I'm sure there are a lot of dentists not doing so well. I guess Lesley touched up on it best by saying if you enjoy dentistry it will being rewarding.
 
JennyRx2007 said:
OMG, predents and dental students are the most shallow people that I've seen...What's so prestigious about the profession when all you will ever do is look at dirty peoples' mouth all day long??
Just my 2 cents 🙂
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First we don't just go in naked, we wear masks and gloves along with our scrubs. Secondly what other profession do u have in mind that's more prestigious and rewarding?.....even in medicine you have to go in gloves and scrubs but this time your at the other end of the tube (not that i'm knocking any medz, i'm just making a point).

Shallow people eh :laugh: ?...... have u ever been to the dentist in your life or met any 1 in the dental field, if so you will notice that everyone is always happy and helpful. So make sure you make sure u do your homework before making any statements. If dentistry is so "dirty" to you WHY in the world are you on the "pre-dents" and the "dents" page posting and reading our comments if you weren't interested.

that's my 2 cents 😀
 
vize said:
The thing I hate about these salary/income questions is that it's always to compare the professions to see which one has the highest income. This makes it so everyone will then try to become a member of that profession (greedy asses who have no real interest in the profession). This will then make it so that profession becomes super saturated (medical profession) and then everyone will post more salary questions on forums to start the cycle all over again! I do not want it to happen with dentistry, so I try not to correct comments regarding their lives.
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posting anything on this website isnt going to change the avg of who goes into what.
 
makushin said:
Most businesses will require significant capital investment. The dental profession is hardly unique in that. One can always be an associate.
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Yes, one can be an associate; however, it will more than likely limit your income potential.

Many businesses do require significant capital investment, but many not as much as a dentistry. When you think of other professionals, CPA's, attorneys, financial advisors, they often need a smaller square footage office, maybe one employee, I know many working without any staff, and just a computer or two, a couple of telephone lines and some bookshelves and filing cabinets.

Dentists require operatories, plumbing, a lot of equipment and supplies. You will need to hire staff, and you will not be paying your dental assistant, front desk or hygienists the sometimes $8-12 dollars/hr that other professionals pay their staff.

I would say the overhead in many businesses is significantly lower, and many professionals will not start their practices with the educational debt load many dentists assume. Often medical doctors stay associates or partners in a business and do not assume the full, financial burden of owning a business independently that many dentists do. Associate salaries in medicine may be a little higher than salaries for associate dentists too. However, an independent dentist may earn a much higher annual income than an associate dentist or associate doctor.

Many professionals do not have the potential to grow their income like dentistry. But, this may not be an important factor to many. A potential income of $100,000, and owning their own business with low overhead, may be enough for many professionals. For others an income of $100,000 and not owning their own business may be more enticing. Having less educational debt may also be a factor for some.

Keeping in mind that many dentists want to make well over $100,000 for their educational effort someday down the road, assuming more debt to purchase and run a practice, possibly purchase property too, is inevitable for many.

If you like dentistry, like to practice dentistry, like people and are not overwhelmed by debt and prepared to have educational and business notes, dentistry is a great profession.

It's a lot of risk and, potentially, a lot of reward.👍

Dentistry is a nice profession with the possibility of owning your own business or remaining an associate.

These are all things I think potential dental students should consider before they start dental school. Once you start and make that investment in your first year or two of dental school, it is not the best time to start questioning you decision for any reason.🙂

I hope this answers your question. Best Wishes and Happy New Year!
 
vize said:
My brother just bought a SL500 (he's 27).
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While I'm happy for your brother, his car doesn't prove anything, even more so if he has student debts on his head. Anyone who is creditworthy and has a proper job can get financing for a posh car.
 
makushin said:
I'm curious... what other jobs did you have in mind? I'd like to know what careers I have overlooked. I have a hard time coming up with anything that has similar working hours and income potential.
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You're right. But the marginally better payoffs from dentistry aren't anything to brag about. ( medicine is different for many reasons but I don't want to raise ire here )

Most professional careers ( ex. MBAs, engineering- most engineers eventually enter management ) are stagnant on the upper end of the 75k - 110k/yr salaries + perks, with only a few yrs of experience. ( in NYC, MBAs with good track exp make well beyond even physicians ) Experience in these areas allow for skills that make you highly employable. Although it's tough finding a job if you're a novice, seasoned veterans are always in demand.

Dental associates, old or young, hover around 75k - 120k/yr. The salary difference between dentists and other careers isn't all that significant. Tack onto that the stress of working under an owner who limits you to certain trmts and restrictive covenants, the physical demands of the job ( it doesn't seem like an issue at first but this will get to you ), and the need for taking cont. ed.

Should you eventually own a practice, that can amount to 150k/yr in salary. But the initial investment, as stated by others, can dwarf even tuition costs at private dental schools. With ~2/3 overhead costs, this isn't as easy as some people make it out to be. By the time you're free of debts and running a stable practice/salary, you'll be in your mid-40s if you entered d-school right after college.

Leaving career enjoyment aside, if you were to evaluate dentistry strictly on financial terms, it's not that impressive but you'll be alright.

But most pre-dents shouldn't have to worry. After all, what other oppportunities are there for second-tier science majors and for those of a cultural background with an obsession for the med field?

:laugh:

I'm just kidding.
 
markovnikov999 said:
By the time you're free of debts and running a stable practice/salary, you'll be in your mid-40s if you entered d-school right after college.

Right again.

More dentists, even those that start DS right after college, are waiting longer, sometimes 5-10 years after graduation, to make the leap to purchasing or starting a practice of their own.

Many dental students are now starting dental school in their thirties. This will also set back the date of purchasing and paying off a practice.

Mid-fourties may be optimistic, but not impossible, and there will be those that accompish this feat in their thirties. Nothing is set in stone.

I doubt many dentists will end up paying off their thirty year school loans any sooner, even with the best intentions. Other purchases, expenses or needs may always be more pressing. Many will be in debt, related to their going to dental school decision, well into their mid-fifties, but they will also have a profession, too. It's just a bit of a trade-off and a choice.

Everyone has a choice with regard to their debt repayment. Each will handle it with respect to their own needs or desires.
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markovnikov999 said:
After graduation, dentists start out anywhere btwn $40k - $90k per year.
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Your numbers are way off. I graduated in may and I am earning less than 20k working greater than 40 hours a week. I love what I do though and would take this path again in a heart beat.
 
Tarheel said:
Your numbers are way off. I graduated in may and I am earning less than 20k working greater than 40 hours a week. I love what I do though and would take this path again in a heart beat.
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u cant be serious...

i meant the < 20k
 
Tarheel said:
I am totally serious. This is a wonderful profession and I love going in every day.
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Why do you mess with the minds of predents? Besides, you only get paid so little because you do so little!:laugh:
 
Good AGD, Academy of General Dentistry, article about new dentists starting out. And, no, it doesn't discuss salary. New dentists discuss their choice of running a practice and/or becoming an associate. Many of you might find it interesting. The dental student debt figure discussed in this article will be inaccurate for many who graduated even in 1998, it is based on ADA survey, and should be taken with a grain of salt. My theory on most surveys.

What to expect as an associate For many new dentists associateship is first step toward ownership

By Jennifer Garvin

Long hours. New surroundings. Staggering debt.

Nearly 4,000 students will graduate from dental schools this year, and according to a 2002 survey by the American Dental Association (ADA), more than 74 percent of those new dentists will begin their careers as associates. The reasons for this are twofold: opening up a solo practice is expensive and by working as an associate, young dentists are able to gain valuable experience and save money at the same time.

The transition from the comfortable cocoon of the classroom into private practice can be nerve-wracking for a new graduate. One young dentist interviewed joked that it's like "being thrown to the dogs." Although students spend the latter part of their schooling working on patients in clinical settings, nothing can quite prepare you for when you're on your own for the first time.

"I can still remember my first patient, my very first day," said Jason Hartman, DDS, a 2000 graduate from the University of Michigan School of Dentistry. "I was by myself because [the owner] was on vacation and I was sweating bullets. You learn quick."

Dr. Hartman, who now practices in Bay City, Mich., knew early on he would work as an associate after graduation.

"I didn't feel like I was ready to up and buy a practice or open one on my own," he said. "I wanted someone to show me the ropes, not only in dentistry, but on the business side as well."

Dr. Hartman's reasoning is common. Many dental students rely on student loans to put them through four years of schooling. According to an ADA survey the average debt in 1998 was $84,000, not including undergraduate loans. The thought of accruing more debt is daunting.

"To start a practice just out of school was too scary," agreed Eric Bloom, DDS.

Although Dr. Bloom recently opened his own practice in Illinois, he continues to work part time as an associate. Since graduating from the University of Iowa College of Dentistry in 1997, he has worked nonstop for several practices, including a stint at a managed-care company. In all, he works six days a week between the two practices, usually 10 or more hours a day. While he's ecstatic about his own practice, Dr. Bloom said he recognizes the positives of working for an established business.

"There's security there," he said. "The practice I'm at [part time] is very busy so I always know my schedule is going to be full. We have three hygienists and you stay busy. You know you're going to get paid and I'm getting paid on production, so you like to be busy."

Dr. Bloom has also had the benefit of working for a dentist that helped him get started.

"He's a great guy and you could always ask him questions and he'd give you the answer," he said. "I'm lucky to have somebody who's been through it before and who helps me avoid some pitfalls."

On the downside, associates sometimes find themselves conforming to their owner's ways before developing a technique of their own.

"You have to use the materials and supplies that that dentist uses," Dr. Bloom said. "You have to do the procedures they do."
It takes time

John Gammichia, DMD, is a recent owner. He became partners with his father about four months ago. Dr. Gammichia toiled as an associate for eight years before becoming an owner. In the beginning, he remembers feeling discouraged when he would talk to an old classmate or read something in a publication where new graduates we're talking about how great everything was. Meanwhile, he was thinking to himself, "this is not as easy as I imagined."

Those experiences prompted him to begin lecturing on the subject.

"People are going to dental school and they have no idea what it's all about," he said. "I had just survived my fifth year of practice and remember sitting back in the office and thinking about what a huge, roller coaster ride I had been on. One of the reasons I was lecturing was to let young dentists know that the light at the end of the tunnel was indeed a train coming at them."

Dr. Gammichia now travels about 15 times a year to speak to dental students and young dentists about what to expect during the first five years out of school. He said he knew "maybe one person" who scored a home run with their first associateship.

"I'm out eight years and I'm still struggling. I heard someone say that they put 26 units in and it was a piece of cake. For me, that's like 60 appointments. Now, when I hear someone say that, I know there is a possibility they could be stretching the truth."

Dr. Gammichia suggests keeping in touch with classmates or joining dental study clubs as ways of coping with the transition.

"The hard part is balance because now I have a family," said Dr. Gammichia, who is married with three children.
Plan ahead

Chris Chung is a third-year student at the University of California School of Dentistry-San Francisco. Despite being more than a year away from graduation, he already knows he will enter the workforce as an associate in 2005.

"I've weighed the options and starting my own practice is just not financially feasible," he said. "I want to build up my speed. The time we get in school isn't enough for you to be confident to do all the various kinds of procedures that a general dentist needs to be able to do.

Mr. Chung expects the grunt work to continue as an associate and said he is willing to "work his way up" in a practice. He hopes to earn a salary based on production, rather than a flat fee, so that he will be motivated to perform.

"Ideally it would be great to get an associateship where I can build a practice within a practice," he said.

Of course, not everyone becomes an associate after graduation. Kim Rauk, DDS, completed her degree in 2003 at the University of Minnesota. Although she considered working as an associate, more and more she found herself leaning toward opening a solo practice.

Dr. Rauk, who is from a small Minnesota town, knew she wanted to practice dentistry in a country setting. But when she started inquiring at various dental practices in rural areas, she found no one interested in taking on a partner or selling their practices.

So in January she opened her own practice.

"A lot of my classmates are asking me, &#8216;how did you start?"

"I always knew I was going to leave the metro area," she said. "My husband and I are both from smaller communities and we knew we eventually wanted to live in the country. We thought we'd have to stay in the city to make some money the first year&#8230;but this has worked out."

Dr. Hartman plans eventually to own his own practice, but is in no hurry to do so now.

"I enjoy working as an associate," he said. "There are some days when I wish I had my own practice, but I can go home and not worry about paying the bills."

He especially enjoys having another dentist there if the patient requires a second opinion.

"We have an interesting relationship. Even though there is an age difference (Hartman's boss is 56) we share the same practice philosophy," he said. "We do some things differently, but he does it his way and I do it mine. We rarely disagree.

Dr. Gammichia stresses to young dentists to take pride in their work as they slowly build a reputation.

"You don't have much except your signature," he said. "I don't care how young you are, you're building a reputation. The smallest thing you do, take pride in it because there's a lot of people you don't know that will see your work. I felt really honored when my lab technician referred his wife to my office. All because I spend that extra couple of seconds making the prep and impression right on."

Jennifer Garvin is the Staff Writer at AGD Impact. She can be reached at [email protected].

AGD Impact: June, Volume 32, Number 6
 
GiveMeDMD said:
I say this because that 5,000k "spread" salary gap between dentists and pharmacists is inaccurate information and needed to be cleared up.

Hi GiveMeDMD, I found it!!! It was a based on a 2003 survey. Still meaningless, but at least I found the source🙂 🙂 🙂 I knew if I kept looking, I'd find this meaningless survey. I can't believe I saved it and got lucky finding it too!


Do what you love and the money will follow" is great in theory, but the truth of the matter is, certain jobs and fields simply pay more. The Bureau of Labor Statistics National Compensation Survey, published in August 2004, showed that white-collar earnings -- which averaged $21.85 per hour -- were the highest among occupational groups. Blue-collar pay averaged $15.03 per hour, while the hourly pay of service occupations averaged just $10.40.

Though many of these occupations require an advanced degree, there are jobs at every education level that pay more than other jobs for workers with similar levels of schooling. Here, courtesy of the Employment Policy Foundation, is a look at the best-paying occupations at varying education levels:

Top Paying Jobs Overall The jobs that pay the most require at least a four-year college degree. According to the Employment Policy Foundation, the nation's 12 top-paying jobs -- and the mean annual income reported in 2003 (the most recent year data was available) for each -- were:

Physicians and surgeons $147,000 Aircraft pilots $133,500 Chief executives $116,000 Electrical and electronic engineers $112,000 Lawyers and judges $99,800 Dentists $90,000 Pharmacists $85,500 Management analysts $84,700 Computer and information system managers $83,000 Financial analysts, managers and advisers $84,000 Marketing and sales managers $80,000 Education administrators $80,000

Though many of these occupations require an advanced degree, there are jobs at every education level that pay more than other jobs for workers with similar levels of schooling. Here, courtesy of the Employment Policy Foundation, is a look at the best-paying occupations at varying education levels:

Top Paying Jobs That Do Not Require a High School Degree These jobs tend to require substantial on-the-job training and work experience rather than formal education and schooling:

Industrial production managers $36,000 Bailiffs, correctional officers and jailers $36,400 Paralegals and legal assistants $36,400 Drafters $36,000 Construction manager $33,600 Electricians $31,900 advertisement George - Women's Cosmopolitan Zip Jacket $26.82 Walmart.com

More Women's Jackets &#9642; Kenneth Cole - Center Stage from Zappos.com Sale $119.90

&#9642; Disney - Mickey & Friends ''Family of Friends'' from Disneydirect.com $16.00

Top Paying Jobs for High School Graduates These occupations emphasize work experience and on-the-job training rather than formal education:

Computer software engineers $58,900 Computer/information systems managers $56,400 Computer programmers $55,000 Network systems and data communications analysts $49,000 General and operations managers $48,000 Database, network and computer systems administrators $48,000

Top Paying Jobs for a Two-Year College Degree The following jobs tend to be technical in nature, emphasizing skills developed on the job as well as job-specific training and certifications:

Healthcare practitioners $66,000 Business analysts $58,000 Electrical and electronic engineers $57,000 Mechanical engineers $56,800 General and operations managers $54,000 Computer and information systems managers $50,400

"A look at expected earnings over a lifetime shows the economic benefit of higher education attainment," says Tony Carnevale, who chaired President Clinton's National Commission for Employment Policy and authored several books, including America and the New Economy: How New Competitive Standards are Radically Changing American Workplaces.

A person with a doctoral or professional degree, for example, is expected to earn about $3 million over the course of his or her working life while a person without a high school diploma is expected to earn less than $1 million.

"Despite an increasing supply of well-educated workers, the college wage premium has nearly doubled since 1980, largely because of the added value of a college education in the new knowledge economy," adds Carnevale.

The Employment Policy Forum concurs, but stresses that these numbers are only averages. Individual earnings depend on many factors including geographic location, employer size (average hourly earnings ranged from $15.06 in organizations employing between one and 99 workers to $24.09 in those with 2,500 workers or more), industry (workers in goods-producing industries earned $18.46 an hour vs. those in service-producing industries who earned $16.44 an hour) and the worker's skills and characteristics.

Kate Lorenz is the article and advice editor for CareerBuilder.com. She researches and writes about job search strategy, career management, hiring trends and workplace issues. Other writers contributed to this article.
Click to expand...
 
vize said:
I like how there's talk of pharmacists actually having a better career/lifestyle than dentists. It allows for dentists to stay living like kings and queens. :laugh:
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Interesting thread. 👍

Salary questions always amuse me. Its important and I understand why students want to know, I was the same way. I think a better question is "what will my NET pay be as a dentist/pharmacists/whatever." All the figures quoted on here are for GROSS pay, which is really meaningless.

Let me tell you from experience the life style difference between making 100K and 300K a year is not that much once you consider NET pay. Obviously the more money you make the more you will take home BUT the more taxes you will also pay. You have to figure in deductions such a mortgage interest and dependants, which almost completely phase out once you reach 250K a year.

What is my point? Once the taxman has visited and all is said and done the guy making a 100K a year and the guy making 300K a year are not really that far apart. They are certainly not so far apart that their “life style” is all that different. One is certainly not living in a mansion with a private jet while the other is living in squalor. So pick your profession based on what you really enjoy NOT what you think is going to put some extra dough in your pocket.
 
MountainPharmD said:
Once the taxman has visited and all is said and done the guy making a 100K a year and the guy making 300K a year are not really that far apart. They are certainly not so far apart that their “life style” is all that different. One is certainly not living in a mansion with a private jet while the other is living in squalor. So pick your profession based on what you really enjoy NOT what you think is going to put some extra dough in your pocket.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. Except the guy making 300k a year, in my opinion, may be a lot more stressed.😱
 
markovnikov999 said:
You're right. But the marginally better payoffs from dentistry aren't anything to brag about. ( medicine is different for many reasons but I don't want to raise ire here )

Most professional careers ( ex. MBAs, engineering- most engineers eventually enter management ) are stagnant on the upper end of the 75k - 110k/yr salaries + perks, with only a few yrs of experience. ( in NYC, MBAs with good track exp make well beyond even physicians ) Experience in these areas allow for skills that make you highly employable. Although it's tough finding a job if you're a novice, seasoned veterans are always in demand.

Dental associates, old or young, hover around 75k - 120k/yr. The salary difference between dentists and other careers isn't all that significant. Tack onto that the stress of working under an owner who limits you to certain trmts and restrictive covenants, the physical demands of the job ( it doesn't seem like an issue at first but this will get to you ), and the need for taking cont. ed.

Should you eventually own a practice, that can amount to 150k/yr in salary. But the initial investment, as stated by others, can dwarf even tuition costs at private dental schools. With ~2/3 overhead costs, this isn't as easy as some people make it out to be. By the time you're free of debts and running a stable practice/salary, you'll be in your mid-40s if you entered d-school right after college.

Leaving career enjoyment aside, if you were to evaluate dentistry strictly on financial terms, it's not that impressive but you'll be alright.

But most pre-dents shouldn't have to worry. After all, what other oppportunities are there for second-tier science majors and for those of a cultural background with an obsession for the med field?

:laugh:

I'm just kidding.
Click to expand...

I was hoping you had something a bit more creative than the standard MBA example. I fail to see how you can honestly compare the autonomy of dentists with that of MBAs and engineers.
 
markovnikov999 said:
You're right. But the marginally better payoffs from dentistry aren't anything to brag about. ( medicine is different for many reasons but I don't want to raise ire here )

Most professional careers ( ex. MBAs, engineering- most engineers eventually enter management ) are stagnant on the upper end of the 75k - 110k/yr salaries + perks, with only a few yrs of experience. ( in NYC, MBAs with good track exp make well beyond even physicians ) Experience in these areas allow for skills that make you highly employable. Although it's tough finding a job if you're a novice, seasoned veterans are always in demand.

Dental associates, old or young, hover around 75k - 120k/yr. The salary difference between dentists and other careers isn't all that significant. Tack onto that the stress of working under an owner who limits you to certain trmts and restrictive covenants, the physical demands of the job ( it doesn't seem like an issue at first but this will get to you ), and the need for taking cont. ed.

Should you eventually own a practice, that can amount to 150k/yr in salary. But the initial investment, as stated by others, can dwarf even tuition costs at private dental schools. With ~2/3 overhead costs, this isn't as easy as some people make it out to be. By the time you're free of debts and running a stable practice/salary, you'll be in your mid-40s if you entered d-school right after college.

Leaving career enjoyment aside, if you were to evaluate dentistry strictly on financial terms, it's not that impressive but you'll be alright.

But most pre-dents shouldn't have to worry. After all, what other oppportunities are there for second-tier science majors and for those of a cultural background with an obsession for the med field?

:laugh:

I'm just kidding.
Click to expand...

dp
 
Just a quick comment to say the first salary mentioned for a pharmacist is not unreasonable. I am a pre-dentistry student and one of my friends is applying to pharm school next year. I know CVS was offering $120,000/year and loan repayment plans to new graduates who signed a five year contract. Also, last year our local hospital was offering $125,000 plus a $25,000 signing bonus for new pharmacists. This is for PharmD graduates.

Those are pretty nice figures for starting salary, especially with loan repayment or signing bonuses. The debt I will have after dentistry school compared to my friend will not be close. She'll probably have ~$30,000-40,000 in loans and I will have close to $100,000.....both at in-state tuition rates.

BUT--flip the calendar forward 10 years after graduation--she'll probably still be working for a company while I'll most likely be in the process of building my own practice that will be an asset on top of the salary that will *most likely* be higher than hers. Oh, and that's not mentioning if I take advantage of the option of specializing--something she won't have.

Dentistry is for me. There is no way I could consider being a pharmacist. Nothing against the profession or decision to do that, but it's just not me. I'm looking forward to the business venture nearly as much as practicing dentistry. The challenge of building a successful practice from the ground up is exciting. But it's nice having the option of working as a salaried dentist in the $120,000-150,000 range, too.

Oh, and I like treating people, too. I know pharmacists are very important members of a person's healthcare team, but I want to actually physically treat my patients. Avoiding that part is the exact reason my friend chose pharmacy, so that just shows it's all about what makes you happy.

Either way, my friend and I are both going to have very rewarding careers and lifestyles. I just choose the one that gives ME the most control over my work life and potential. 😀

Oh, one last thing. Has anyone noticed how MANY pre-pharmacy majors there are now??? It seems like every third person is a pre-pharm major. With everyone planning on being a pharmacist (and a lot just for the salary reasoning), don't they realize how many there will be by the time they graduate?? I know they will have jobs, but this salary increase is being driven by the shortage right now. The salary of dentists have been on the rise steadily for quite some time. I really think a lot of the people that are doing it simply for the money are going to be disappointed when they find themselves sitting in a retail pharmacy making $90,000-100,000 instead of the $140,000 they thought they were guaranteed. With these people pursuing pharmacy, the future quality of care from pharmacists also worries me. I don't care how smart you are or what class you passed, if you don't enjoy what you're doing, you're not going to give it your full effort....especially after doing it over-and-over for several years.
 
markovnikov999 said:
While I'm happy for your brother, his car doesn't prove anything, even more so if he has student debts on his head. Anyone who is creditworthy and has a proper job can get financing for a posh car.
Click to expand...

Yes, they're so easy to get; that's why everyone has one! </sarcasm>
 
dr.rex said:
my friend will graduate this spring as a pharm and he just signed a 3 year deal worth 1 million dollars
Click to expand...

Well, lets hope your friend's math skills are better when he's counting pills than when he is reporting his salary.

333,000 per year for a pharmacist??? What job is that, personal pharmacist to the King of Saudi?

Maybe, just maybe. . . . your friend made it all up.
 
I think if you are entrepreneurial and a good businessperson, you can do well in dentistry. I like the idea of running a business and have grown up with that kind of background. I know of one dentist who is an enterpreneur in other aspects of business with ownership of several franchises.

First and foremost, I think I would enjoy the actual work that a dentist does. Secondly, what appeals to me, is the freedom to run my own business. You would have to pay me a LOT to be a pharmacist at Wal-Mart or a doctor in managed care. It is a career choice and a lifestyle choice. Not just about $$ to me.

I'm also not in my 20s anymore, so maybe have a different perspective.
 
trent said:
I think if you are entrepreneurial and a good businessperson, you can do well in dentistry. I like the idea of running a business and have grown up with that kind of background. I know of one dentist who is an enterpreneur in other aspects of business with ownership of several franchises.

First and foremost, I think I would enjoy the actual work that a dentist does. Secondly, what appeals to me, is the freedom to run my own business. You would have to pay me a LOT to be a pharmacist at Wal-Mart or a doctor in managed care. It is a career choice and a lifestyle choice. Not just about $$ to me.

I'm also not in my 20s anymore, so maybe have a different perspective.
Click to expand...

Good luck. How old do you think you will be when you graduate dental school? How much school debt do you think you will have accumulated by that time? These are also things that will influence your decisions and perspective. Best wishes.
 
Why defend your choice one way or the other if you like what you do? Beats me 🙂 Good discussion nonetheless
 
I'm in my last year of dental school and I've found this thread to be one of the most interesting thread yet. Considering that the pharmacy school here at UNC can be 6 years long (w/ undergrad) w/ a starting salary of 100K+, it seems fabulous. Considering that dental school has been an extremely stressful 4 years, classes clinical requirmentes, finding board patients, crap and I'm still stressed out, I can't wait till graduation. Since then I've been telling my family and friends that if they're considering a career they should definetly look into pharmacy.

But that's not to say I don't like dentistry. Dentistry has a lot of advantages that were already mentioned above. Dentistry will allow me to be my own boss one day, my income potential will be great and I get to see results of my work fairly quickly. I like the prospect of running a small business.

One of my friends is in his last year of pharmacy school and retail pharmacy is not for him, he described the job to me, and it's not for me either. He's hopeing to do a residency and become a hospital pharmacist.
 
Regarding debt and dentistry...lets get one thing straight. Pretty much every American has some sort of debt. Whether it's a mortgage, practice or student debt, there's debt.

Someone said earlier that you won't be without debt till the mid 40s. That's a bit exaggerated. I have 130k from student loans for which I will take the full 30 years to pay. Why pay at 2or 3% interest when I can pay the min and invest the rest.

Most practice loans are ~500k on the higher end and are paid over 7 or so years.

Graduate ~27, associate for 1-2 years, buy in or scratch start-up. You will have the practice paid off in mid to late 30s.
 
capisce? said:
Graduate ~27, associate for 1-2 years, buy in or scratch start-up. You will have the practice paid off in mid to late 30s.
Click to expand...
Erm... how much will you be living on, while paying off your $200K+ debt, and paying off your own (let's say) $500K practice? Not to mention your mortgage, and other 4 figure payments on the side.

Show me the money! 😀
 
donald trump says you should always be in debt....there's good debt and bad debt. i'd say he knows a thing or 2 about $ student loans, other low interest loans = good debt. home equity mortgage or credit card for a backyard tennis court = bad debt. pretty obvious but one should be more concerned about managing debt rather than getting out of debt. make your money work for you
 
Cold Front said:
Erm... how much will you be living on, while paying off your $200K+ debt, and paying off your own (let's say) $500K practice? Not to mention your mortgage, and other 4 figure payments on the side.

Show me the money! 😀
Click to expand...

Yes, you touched on the most important question relative to debt - How much will you be living on?

However, your assumption that living expenses preclude a dentist from becoming debt free in 7 years is false. As is your assumption that capisce will be saddled with multiple "4 figure payments". How much a dentist spends is their own choice, and the deciding factor as to the age at which they become financially independent. I know plenty of dentists who started practicing around age 30, and retired around age 50. They were debt free in 7 years.

The key for these individuals is they had no illusions of grandeur. They realized that their dental degree didn't catapult them into the financially independent ranks of the Vanderbilts and Rockefellers. As a result, they (or their wives and kids) didn't spend freely for those first 7 years. They invested and paid off debt and still lived a resonable lifestyle.

Most of the dentists that don't retire by 60 will never retire, because either they love the job too much, or they spent too much money along the way and are forced to continue working.
 
markovnikov999 said:
Dental associates, old or young, hover around 75k - 120k/yr. The salary difference between dentists and other careers isn't all that significant. Tack onto that the stress of working under an owner who limits you to certain trmts and restrictive covenants, the physical demands of the job ( it doesn't seem like an issue at first but this will get to you ), and the need for taking cont. ed.
Click to expand...

To make 75k a year as an associate (most associates make around 30% of what they produce/collect) is not hard at all. If you worked 4 days a week (192 days a year that gives you 4 weeks off every year) you would only have to produce/collect $250,000 a year. That is $1302 a day. That is nothing. You could come in do one root canal a day and then leave and make that kind of money. I don't think you realize how easy it is to make money in dentistry.

When you graduate if you work 5 days a week (240 days a year) and produce 1500 a day and take home 30% of that you will have a salary of $108,000. After taxes that is over $6,000 dollars a month. You take out $2500 for student loans and you still have around $4,000 dollars a month to live off of. That is not bad. And that is bare bones pathetic dentistry. 5 years out of dental school you should be producing $3-5,000 a day which is $216,000-360,000 a year. There is plenty of money in dentistry for all.
 
Plus if you own your own practice and find ways to lower your overhead and have a hygienist make a grand a day for you and have expanded assistants doing bleaching for you the money jumps through the roof. It is very possible to produce $5,000-10,000 a day. Not everyone will reach this goal and not everyone wants to reach this goal. But you can if you want to. It is not unrealistic to strive for these goals.
 
johntara04 said:
When you graduate if you work 5 days a week (240 days a year) and produce 1500 a day and take home 30% of that you will have a salary of $108,000. After taxes that is over $6,000 dollars a month. You take out $2500 for student loans and you still have around $4,000 dollars a month to live off of. That is not bad. And that is bare bones pathetic dentistry. 5 years out of dental school you should be producing $3-5,000 a day which is $216,000-360,000 a year. There is plenty of money in dentistry for all.
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Is this a testimonial? or more like what you've heard from other sources? because I haven't met anyone from the real world (a dentist/associate) who could tell me what it's really like when it comes to income. I'm not implying that your numbers are wrong, just want to see how this works inside the profession.

Also, aren't you leaving out other factors, i.e. location (city versus small towns), community (rich versus underserved), business skills (savvy versus normal), experience (GPR versus straight out of school), etc.

👍
 
Cold Front said:
Is this a testimonial? or more like what you've heard from other sources? because I haven't met anyone from the real world (a dentist/associate) who could tell me what it's really like when it comes to income. I'm not implying that your numbers are wrong, just want to see how this works inside the profession.

Also, aren't you leaving out other factors, i.e. location (city versus small towns), community (rich versus underserved), business skills (savvy versus normal), experience (GPR versus straight out of school), etc.

👍
Click to expand...

The hardest thing in dentistry is getting patients in the chair. Here is an example of how easy it is to make money.

Honestly, it is not that hard to make money in dentistry. I work for a doctor who was mad all day yesterday because the office "only" produced a little over $5,000. You may make less than $100,000 your first year out of dental school, but that is only because your clinical skills are not up to speed. After that first year you should be fast enough in most things to get your salary to at least $150,000. I posted this example in another thread:

If you work 240 days a year (48 weeks, 5 days a week. That gives you one month off a year), you should be making well over $100,000 a year as a dentist. Let's pretend that all you do is drill and fill. Just cavaties all day long. The only supplies you buy are for filling cavaties. That is all you do, you refer everything else out. You have one assistant, one front desk person, and one hygienist. That's all the employees you have. You are a small, small office. Your hygienist sees 5 patients a day. Let's say she sees 1 SRP and 4 Prophies and x-rays on 2 of the 4 patients. You see 10 patients a day, all with 1 filling. So you produce each day:

1 SRP: $150 a quad = $600
4 Prophies: $100 x 4 = $400
2 sets of x-rays: $50 x 2 = $100
8 fillings = $100 x 10 = $1000
Your office production = $2,100 a day, (240 x $2,100) $504,000 a year

Your overhead will be very, very small with three employees and two chairs. They say the average dental office is around 65% so we will go with that number, even though with only three employees (let's say you give them no benefits, a lot of practices don't) your overhead would only be about 45-50%. So, after you drill and fill all day long, you take home around 35% of what you produced. Let's say for arguments sake you only take home 25%. So, you take home at the end of the year around $126,000.

Also, if this was your practice, I would suggest you just fire your hygienist, train your assistant and fd person in both jobs and only have 2 employees and put the $50,000 you would have paid the hygienist back into your pocket and see their patients.

Now, this estimate is very, very low. If this was you and this was reality, your overhead would not be 75% as this example says. Your practice overhead would probably be 55-60% which means your income would be around $201,000-227,000. You may struggle that first year, you may struggle those first 5 years. But even after your seven years of struggling, you will be making (by this example, which is a low estimate) $15,000+ a month. And remember, by your example you will only be around 35 years old. Thirty-five and making about what a teacher makes every month. Not too bad. Better than 95% of the jobs out there.

So, the debt is big in dentistry, but if you are smart, the payoff is even bigger.
 
johntara04 said:
The hardest thing in dentistry is getting patients in the chair. Here is an example of how easy it is to make money.

Honestly, it is not that hard to make money in dentistry. I work for a doctor who was mad all day yesterday because the office "only" produced a little over $5,000. You may make less than $100,000 your first year out of dental school, but that is only because your clinical skills are not up to speed. After that first year you should be fast enough in most things to get your salary to at least $150,000. I posted this example in another thread:

If you work 240 days a year (48 weeks, 5 days a week. That gives you one month off a year), you should be making well over $100,000 a year as a dentist. Let's pretend that all you do is drill and fill. Just cavaties all day long. The only supplies you buy are for filling cavaties. That is all you do, you refer everything else out. You have one assistant, one front desk person, and one hygienist. That's all the employees you have. You are a small, small office. Your hygienist sees 5 patients a day. Let's say she sees 1 SRP and 4 Prophies and x-rays on 2 of the 4 patients. You see 10 patients a day, all with 1 filling. So you produce each day:

1 SRP: $150 a quad = $600
4 Prophies: $100 x 4 = $400
2 sets of x-rays: $50 x 2 = $100
8 fillings = $100 x 10 = $1000
Your office production = $2,100 a day, (240 x $2,100) $504,000 a year

Your overhead will be very, very small with three employees and two chairs. They say the average dental office is around 65% so we will go with that number, even though with only three employees (let's say you give them no benefits, a lot of practices don't) your overhead would only be about 45-50%. So, after you drill and fill all day long, you take home around 35% of what you produced. Let's say for arguments sake you only take home 25%. So, you take home at the end of the year around $126,000.

Also, if this was your practice, I would suggest you just fire your hygienist, train your assistant and fd person in both jobs and only have 2 employees and put the $50,000 you would have paid the hygienist back into your pocket and see their patients.

Now, this estimate is very, very low. If this was you and this was reality, your overhead would not be 75% as this example says. Your practice overhead would probably be 55-60% which means your income would be around $201,000-227,000. You may struggle that first year, you may struggle those first 5 years. But even after your seven years of struggling, you will be making (by this example, which is a low estimate) $15,000+ a month. And remember, by your example you will only be around 35 years old. Thirty-five and making about what a teacher makes every month. Not too bad. Better than 95% of the jobs out there.

So, the debt is big in dentistry, but if you are smart, the payoff is even bigger.
Click to expand...

Does your overhead here includes payments to the practice bought over? Also, how much and how long a fresh graduate ends up paying a study loan, say $300k in this instance?
 
seoul said:
Does your overhead here includes payments to the practice bought over? Also, how much and how long a fresh graduate ends up paying a study loan, say $300k in this instance?
Click to expand...

Let's say you paid $500,000 for the practice (which if all you could produce was $2100 a day you most likely would not pay that much for the practice. If this were the case it would be much cheaper to just start from scratch) and had 300k in student loans. That is 800k in loans. If this were your practice your overhead would be 55-65% (if you didn't have a hygienist and kept spending to a minimum, you don't need a cerec, diagnodent, etc right out of school, your overhead would probably be closer to 45-50%). So that would mean you would take home $176,400-226,800. Your monthly loan payments would be $9,500 (10 years), $7,500 (15 years), $5,500 (30 years). You would take home approx. $15,000 a month to 19,000 a month. Take away taxes and payments and you are still doing pretty well. Now, that is not drop dead rich, but you are also only a couple of years out school. If you figure that your salary will increase 10% every year because more docs are retiring than graduating (which is what they keep telling us) then your income will increase every year while your loan payment does not. Also, if you figure in practice growth (I doubt many of us would be satisfied with $2,100 a day in production, that would just be boring sitting around all day really not doing anything), patient increases, your speed increases so you can do more every day then you could add at least another 10% to your salary. So, within 5 years, you could be halfway out of debt (making the 9k payments) with a good 9k to do whatever you want with.

So, will you ever be Trump with your black Amex, flying helicopters out to your million dollar yachts? Probably not. Will you be better off than 95% of Americans and be able to go on a great vacation every year, drive a nice car, live in a nice house and put your kids through college and retire at a reasonable age? Most definetly.
 
toofache32 said:
Business school, ambulance chasing lawyer, sell crack...
Click to expand...

Average wages after graduating from an average business and/or law school will probably net you less than the average starting dentist. In the long run, the dentist running a solid practice should work less and make more. As with any corporate job you don't really get any job security either. I know people with MBAs and JDs that make considerably less and work a crapload of hours. Graduating from a top school might put you over $150,K...but it is doubtful otherwise. Selling crack? You could probably make more than all of them put together...but I wouldn't advise it. 😱

There are always exceptions to the rule on this one, but this is what I have seen.
 
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