question about salary

[Jaybe]

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That's all!?!? Weak.....🙁

Who is this Douche?

 

[The_Sensei]

Who is this Douche?

Someone you wish you were but will never be....😀

 

[OceanDMD]

The hardest thing in dentistry is getting patients in the chair. Here is an example of how easy it is to make money.

Honestly, it is not that hard to make money in dentistry. I work for a doctor who was mad all day yesterday because the office "only" produced a little over $5,000. You may make less than $100,000 your first year out of dental school, but that is only because your clinical skills are not up to speed. After that first year you should be fast enough in most things to get your salary to at least $150,000. I posted this example in another thread:

If you work 240 days a year (48 weeks, 5 days a week. That gives you one month off a year), you should be making well over $100,000 a year as a dentist. Let's pretend that all you do is drill and fill. Just cavaties all day long. The only supplies you buy are for filling cavaties. That is all you do, you refer everything else out. You have one assistant, one front desk person, and one hygienist. That's all the employees you have. You are a small, small office. Your hygienist sees 5 patients a day. Let's say she sees 1 SRP and 4 Prophies and x-rays on 2 of the 4 patients. You see 10 patients a day, all with 1 filling. So you produce each day:

1 SRP: $150 a quad = $600
4 Prophies: $100 x 4 = $400
2 sets of x-rays: $50 x 2 = $100
8 fillings = $100 x 10 = $1000
Your office production = $2,100 a day, (240 x $2,100) $504,000 a year

Your overhead will be very, very small with three employees and two chairs. They say the average dental office is around 65% so we will go with that number, even though with only three employees (let's say you give them no benefits, a lot of practices don't) your overhead would only be about 45-50%. So, after you drill and fill all day long, you take home around 35% of what you produced. Let's say for arguments sake you only take home 25%. So, you take home at the end of the year around $126,000.

Also, if this was your practice, I would suggest you just fire your hygienist, train your assistant and fd person in both jobs and only have 2 employees and put the $50,000 you would have paid the hygienist back into your pocket and see their patients.

Now, this estimate is very, very low. If this was you and this was reality, your overhead would not be 75% as this example says. Your practice overhead would probably be 55-60% which means your income would be around $201,000-227,000. You may struggle that first year, you may struggle those first 5 years. But even after your seven years of struggling, you will be making (by this example, which is a low estimate) $15,000+ a month. And remember, by your example you will only be around 35 years old. Thirty-five and making about what a teacher makes every month. Not too bad. Better than 95% of the jobs out there.

So, the debt is big in dentistry, but if you are smart, the payoff is even bigger.

Look, you may have worked in a practice that PRODUCES big bucks, and you may graduate and produce >500 k early in your career, but let me explain reality to you. The following figures are not made up, they are from a 2006 survey:

average dental practice yearly production: $446,000/year
90 th percentile practice yearly production $763,000/year
average daily production(dr. + hygiene) $ 3418/day
90th percentile daily production $7200/day

With a WELL RUN practice, the overhead can be near 60% . I can tell you that if you are in a practice that is producing over a million (which I have worked in one), it is likely your overhead is going to approach more like 70-75%. Its nice to make it sound so easy to make money in dentistry, and that patients will flock to your doors the day you buy or start a practice. This is not true. It takes hard work, continuing education, and being different then the run of the mill practice. With the average GP salary around 140 k/year (this is a number for all GPs, not new grads, or 5 year out) dont expect 200k plus salaries unless you are busting your a_s. And another thing, after paying insurances, living expenses, and student loans, 100k per year does not go very far. I work with a very successful dentist(30 years of experience, LVI cosmetics) who gave me the following advice, dont expect dentistry to make you rich, but it can open doors for you for other methods of income.

 

[johntara04]

Look, you may have worked in a practice that PRODUCES big bucks, and you may graduate and produce >500 k early in your career, but let me explain reality to you. The following figures are not made up, they are from a 2006 survey:

average dental practice yearly production: $446,000/year
90 th percentile practice yearly production $763,000/year
average daily production(dr. + hygiene) $ 3418/day
90th percentile daily production $7200/day

With a WELL RUN practice, the overhead can be near 60% . I can tell you that if you are in a practice that is producing over a million (which I have worked in one), it is likely your overhead is going to approach more like 70-75%. Its nice to make it sound so easy to make money in dentistry, and that patients will flock to your doors the day you buy or start a practice. This is not true. It takes hard work, continuing education, and being different then the run of the mill practice. With the average GP salary around 140 k/year (this is a number for all GPs, not new grads, or 5 year out) dont expect 200k plus salaries unless you are busting your a_s. And another thing, after paying insurances, living expenses, and student loans, 100k per year does not go very far. I work with a very successful dentist(30 years of experience, LVI cosmetics) who gave me the following advice, dont expect dentistry to make you rich, but it can open doors for you for other methods of income.

Do you have a source for your survey? Also, every doctor that I have ever met, or talked to that has a yearly collection of around $446,000 (your number) has an overhead of around 50%. To do that little amount of procedures each year does not mandate a high overhead. Usually the more range of procedures that you do, the higer your overhead. The ADA says the average dentists income is:

new owner (who knows what "new" means) - $178,110
associate - $110,000
specialist - $261,280
faculty - $74,079-96,762

http://www.ada.org/prof/ed/careers/infopaks/careers.pdf

The average practice overhead will (should) be around 60%. I have talked to a lot (15+ so not a huge group but big enough to give an idea of what can be done) of doctors who produce 1 million plus on 50% overhead. To make $200,000 a year, working 5 days a week, on 65% overhead you need to produce around $600,000 a year which is $2500 a day. Your numbers say that the average gp produces $3418 which is $820,320 (5 days a week) or $656,256 (4 days a week). So that is (on 65% overhead) $287,112 (5 days) or $229,689 (4 days). So even by your numbers both types of doctors are making over $200,000 a year. That is good money.

If your hygiene schedule is full (8+ patients a day per hygienist) there is no excuse for not having $5,000+ a day in production. It really is not that hard to make money in dentistry. It all comes down to whether you want to work smart, and how much you want to work.

For some (me) working 3 days a week and making $150,000 a year would be heaven. For others, working 5 days a week and making $300,000+ a year is heaven. That is what is so great about dentistry. You can do whatever you want.

That being said, I do completely agree with this statment that you gave:

It takes smart work, continuing education, and being different then the run of the mill practice.

p.s. There is no valid excuse (except maybe divorce) to not be a millionaire when you retire in dentistry.

 

[dentalcn]

Do you have a source for your survey? Also, every doctor that I have ever met, or talked to that has a yearly collection of around $446,000 (your number) has an overhead of around 50%. To do that little amount of procedures each year does not mandate a high overhead. Usually the more range of procedures that you do, the higer your overhead. The ADA says the average dentists income is:

new owner (who knows what "new" means) - $178,110
associate - $110,000
specialist - $261,280
faculty - $74,079-96,762

http://www.ada.org/prof/ed/careers/infopaks/careers.pdf

The average practice overhead will (should) be around 60%. I have talked to a lot (15+ so not a huge group but big enough to give an idea of what can be done) of doctors who produce 1 million plus on 50% overhead. To make $200,000 a year, working 5 days a week, on 65% overhead you need to produce around $600,000 a year which is $2500 a day. Your numbers say that the average gp produces $3418 which is $820,320 (5 days a week) or $656,256 (4 days a week). So that is (on 65% overhead) $287,112 (5 days) or $229,689 (4 days). So even by your numbers both types of doctors are making over $200,000 a year. That is good money.

If your hygiene schedule is full (8+ patients a day per hygienist) there is no excuse for not having $5,000+ a day in production. It really is not that hard to make money in dentistry. It all comes down to whether you want to work smart, and how much you want to work.

For some (me) working 3 days a week and making $150,000 a year would be heaven. For others, working 5 days a week and making $300,000+ a year is heaven. That is what is so great about dentistry. You can do whatever you want.

That being said, I do completely agree with this statment that you gave:



p.s. There is no valid excuse (except maybe divorce) to not be a millionaire when you retire in dentistry.

Thanks for your info. sounds so inspiring....👍 👍 👍

 

[OceanDMD]

Do you have a source for your survey? Also, every doctor that I have ever met, or talked to that has a yearly collection of around $446,000 (your number) has an overhead of around 50%. To do that little amount of procedures each year does not mandate a high overhead. Usually the more range of procedures that you do, the higer your overhead. The ADA says the average dentists income is:

new owner (who knows what "new" means) - $178,110
associate - $110,000
specialist - $261,280
faculty - $74,079-96,762

http://www.ada.org/prof/ed/careers/infopaks/careers.pdf

The average practice overhead will (should) be around 60%. I have talked to a lot (15+ so not a huge group but big enough to give an idea of what can be done) of doctors who produce 1 million plus on 50% overhead. To make $200,000 a year, working 5 days a week, on 65% overhead you need to produce around $600,000 a year which is $2500 a day. Your numbers say that the average gp produces $3418 which is $820,320 (5 days a week) or $656,256 (4 days a week). So that is (on 65% overhead) $287,112 (5 days) or $229,689 (4 days). So even by your numbers both types of doctors are making over $200,000 a year. That is good money.

If your hygiene schedule is full (8+ patients a day per hygienist) there is no excuse for not having $5,000+ a day in production. It really is not that hard to make money in dentistry. It all comes down to whether you want to work smart, and how much you want to work.

For some (me) working 3 days a week and making $150,000 a year would be heaven. For others, working 5 days a week and making $300,000+ a year is heaven. That is what is so great about dentistry. You can do whatever you want.

That being said, I do completely agree with this statment that you gave:



p.s. There is no valid excuse (except maybe divorce) to not be a millionaire when you retire in dentistry.

My practice production numbers left out hygiene production(thats the discrepancy with the daily production #). These are from the Dec 2006 Dental Economics. Dont get me wrong, I am not saying you cant make a good living in dentistry, and certainly retire as a millionaire. But most of us don't just walk out of school and gross 200 k a few years later. You do realize a start-up or reasonable purchase of a practice is around 400k. Financed over 7-10 years you are paying maybe 7-8k a month. This is on top of your dental overhead. The money has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is straight out of your take home pay. So for some it takes time to bring in the bucks, its not always an immediate(once your a practice owner) thing. I'd like to see what percentile GP grosses 200k +.

 

[Cold Front]

Some CE course instructor at Yankee Dental Conference claimed that he makes $3 million a year as a general dentist.

I guess anything is possible.

 

[drben]

My practice production numbers left out hygiene production(thats the discrepancy with the daily production #). These are from the Dec 2006 Dental Economics. Dont get me wrong, I am not saying you cant make a good living in dentistry, and certainly retire as a millionaire. But most of us don't just walk out of school and gross 200 k a few years later. You do realize a start-up or reasonable purchase of a practice is around 400k. Financed over 7-10 years you are paying maybe 7-8k a month. This is on top of your dental overhead. The money has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is straight out of your take home pay. So for some it takes time to bring in the bucks, its not always an immediate(once your a practice owner) thing. I'd like to see what percentile GP grosses 200k +.

I can only speak for the dental community that I work in, but I would honestly say that 75% of the GP's (I'm an orthodontist and have a fairly good sense of what my referring doctors are making) make at LEAST 200K a year.

During the times that I lurk on this board I have seen MANY postings about salary. The bottom line is: take good care of patient, be honest, have decent people skills and you are going to make a lot of money. You make out of this profession what you are willing to put into it (just like ANY profession--hell one of the wealthiest people I know is a plumber!). I personally know many, many GP's that are NET'ING over 500K a year...

Ben

 

[Daurang]

With all due respect, where do you all get these ridiculous $400,000 for a startup practice figures?

Here's my actual figure...
Construction/plumbing...$40000
Two chairs...$15,000
Pano... $10,000
Xray/developer...$6000
Sterilizer...$2000
Dell desktop/NEC printer $600
Dental software $70
Misc. $5000.

Skip every other nonessentials and upgrade very slowly as need arrives. The patient that appreciates digital xray, air abrasion, laser, camera, wand, nitrous oxide are very far and few in between you don't need them. You should make mucho dinero within 3 months. My first year net in 2001 was right on the ADA figure for 'new owner' of $178K.

 

[impala25]

http://www.ada.org/ada/prod/survey/faq.asp#income

 

[Jaybe]

With all due respect, where do you all get these ridiculous $400,000 for a startup practice figures?

Here's my actual figure...
Construction/plumbing...$40000
Two chairs...$15,000
Pano... $10,000
Xray/developer...$6000
Sterilizer...$2000
Dell desktop/NEC printer $600
Dental software $70
Misc. $5000.

Skip every other nonessentials and upgrade very slowly as need arrives. The patient that appreciates digital xray, air abrasion, laser, camera, wand, nitrous oxide are very far and few in between you don't need them. You should make mucho dinero within 3 months. My first year net in 2001 was right on the ADA figure for 'new owner' of $178K.

I agree, a Start up should be much less expensive than a practice acquistion. I would assume maybe half the cost or less.

 

[johntara04]

With all due respect, where do you all get these ridiculous $400,000 for a startup practice figures?

Here's my actual figure...
Construction/plumbing...$40000
Two chairs...$15,000
Pano... $10,000
Xray/developer...$6000
Sterilizer...$2000
Dell desktop/NEC printer $600
Dental software $70
Misc. $5000.

Skip every other nonessentials and upgrade very slowly as need arrives. The patient that appreciates digital xray, air abrasion, laser, camera, wand, nitrous oxide are very far and few in between you don't need them. You should make mucho dinero within 3 months. My first year net in 2001 was right on the ADA figure for 'new owner' of $178K.

I totally agree. From what I have heard from different doctors that startup on their own is that startup should be around $200,000. Anymore than that and you are getting played by buying excessive stuff.

 

[personal]

Anyone know how much OMS makes a year? A salary range would be nice.

 

[toofache32]

Anyone know how much OMS makes a year? A salary range would be nice.

It depends on if you have the MD or not. Similar to how DDS's make more than DMDs.

 

[personal]

Let's say that you do have the MD, how much would you make?

 

[aphistis]

It depends on if you have the MD or not. Similar to how DDS's make more than DMDs.

Since you're the one who's confusing the poor guy, you get to be the one who sorts it all out. 😉

 

[toofache32]

OK, OK.....income in OMS has nothing to do with what degrees you have. You bill the same amount for a given procedure regardless. The ADA says OMS's make an average of $270,000 (or something like that). Most that I know start in the 150-200 range and easily go up to 400-500. I know one who is making around 700 after 5 years, and another who made 1.3M after 5 years...but he was the only guy in a small town. Small town dentistry is where it's at if you're into money.

 

[elbee]

One benefit to a Pharm degree over Dentistry is that you can do other things with a Pharm degree. If you get a DDS or a DMD you are going to be a dentist and that is pretty much it.

My friend's mother has a Pharm degree and she was an executive at Merck for many years (making huge money).

Also, if I had my own practice and was only making 100K a year I would not consider that a success. It's ok, but not great. Business owners who would take on the stress of owning their own business are hoping to net more than 100K.

 

[TucsonDDS]

One benefit to a Pharm degree over Dentistry is that you can do other things with a Pharm degree. If you get a DDS or a DMD you are going to be a dentist and that is pretty much it.

My friend's mother has a Pharm degree and she was an executive at Merck for many years (making huge money).

Also, if I had my own practice and was only making 100K a year I would not consider that a success. It's ok, but not great. Business owners who would take on the stress of owning their own business are hoping to net more than 100K.

Ain't that right. You can work at CVS, RiteAide or Walgreens. I don't think pharmacists have anything over Dentists when it comes to different ways to utilize a degree.

 

[Baylor83]

I totally agree. From what I have heard from different doctors that startup on their own is that startup should be around $200,000. Anymore than that and you are getting played by buying excessive stuff.

But you'll end up having no patients to see at certain days during the initial business start-up.

 

[Rube]

Ain't that right. You can work at CVS, RiteAide or Walgreens...

Exactly, you could work nights, weekends, pretty much whenever they tell you to work.

 

[tgp511]

Just wanted to chime in here. If you guys would look at the data, only the top 10% of pharmacists make more than 110k a year, with the middle 50% making between 75-95. That's a rather small standard deviation, so for someone to be making 150k a year puts them (at least) in the top 99.5 percentile of pharmacists. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say your 100k+ starting salaries are inflated.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos079.htm

Feel free to question the stats; from what I understand BLS is pretty biased against the health professions 🙄

 

[tgp511]

The most extensive/accurate source is the ADA and the APhA. The ADA lists general dentists avg salary at 177K for 2005, and the APhA lists the avg. pharmacists salary at barely over 100K. I say this because that 5,000k "spread" salary gap between dentists and pharmacists is inaccurate information and needed to be cleared up.

Sources:
http://www.aacp.org
http://www.ada.org

Not accurate. The nature of these surveys involve giving surveys to MEMBERS of the ADA and APhA. Firstly, because this by nature isn't a random sample, you cannot draw any conclusions about the general population of pharm's or dds'. Secondly, members of professional organizations tend to be the people within the profession with the most influence and experience in the field. People with a high amount of influence and experience command higher salaries.

To say the Bureau of Labor Statistics is off and then quote a survey of members of an organization as accurate shows you are unqualified to comment on this particular issue.