Question about specialties and being a DO

[bth7]

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Why do DO's want to come to MD programs?

If you want to become an orthopedic surgeon, tell the AOA to lobby for some osteopathic only ortho positions.

All DO's do by applying for allopathic spots is continue the resentment of DO's by MD's.

I want to go to an MD program because the training in ACGME programs is so much better than in AOA programs.

As far as lobbying the AOA for GME programs, we've tried. They won't do a thing. Osteopathic GME is withering, and the AOA does nothing.

bth

 

[J1515]

It sounds like we are on the same page here. MD does not equal DO. And that's a reality we all face.

In your eyes maybe it doesn't. In many others' eyes MD = DO. Same exact practice privilages. Both are fully licensed physicians. That's all that matters. That's all I care about.

 

[J1515]

I want to go to an MD program because the training in ACGME programs is so much better than in AOA programs.

Blanket statement that is not true. For example, there's a certain inner city hospital in Bronx, NY that is a DO hospital with DO residencies that sees a ton of patients with all kinds of specialties and great teaching (single personal experience to offset your's, but still anecdotal). PCOM has some pretty amazing residencies as well. I suggest you stop extrapolating your own single experience to an entire population. You should come to the east coast to see what you are missing.

 

[bigDinLV]

They may be largely localized. The only problem is, that they are true in some places. I'm glad its different at many places in Philly, or even Chicago. I really am.

But because DOs are more accepted in Philly, or Chicago, or everywhere except California, doesn't change my original statement.

DO does not equal MD.

The sky isn't falling. The world is not coming to an end. It is simply a fact to note, and plan for accordingly.

bth

Save that DO does not equal MD statement for yourself. Say BTH does not equal MD and wants everyone else to think they are as underqualified so he doesn't feel like it is just BTH.

If you didn't get the reisdency interviews that you want, then I am sorry. It sucks to go through all of this to end up without the job that you want. I understand you may be bitter, but it isn't our profession as a whole.

The fact that you will be a DO and keep saying we are inferior will only do one thing. It will make your DO associates dislike you. So you present yourself to the MDs saying you are inferior, you'll never get a job that way. Then the DO community will dislike you for putting us down. You're going to be left all alone in the end, nobody will stand by you or offer you any help along the way.

For instance, if J1515 said he needed help with something that I could do, I would help. I see this person as a peer and would do what I could to help him/her. Not to be offensive, but if BTH needed help, even if it was something I could do, I wouldn't do it at this point.

 

[scpod]

As far as lobbying the AOA for GME programs, we've tried. They won't do a thing. Osteopathic GME is withering, and the AOA does nothing.

bth

I'll call you out on this one because it's a bold-faced lie. The AOA cannot create GME programs. Those are done by individual hospitals, with osteopathic schools often contributing. They can however help the situation along. They have put lots of time and effort into fostering GME growth including lobbying congress for bills that will make it easier for hospitals open new programs and gain initial funding. GME has been a very important part of the AOA's agenda recently. They are also working to assure that OGME programs maintain and improve quality. Maybe it hasn't been swift enough for you, but to say they are doing nothing is wrong. I don't agree with a lot of the things the AOA does, but I won't spread lies about them.

 

[bth7]

Save that DO does not equal MD statement for yourself. Say BTH does not equal MD and wants everyone else to think they are as underqualified so he doesn't feel like it is just BTH.

If you didn't get the reisdency interviews that you want, then I am sorry. It sucks to go through all of this to end up without the job that you want. I understand you may be bitter, but it isn't our profession as a whole.

The fact that you will be a DO and keep saying we are inferior will only do one thing. It will make your DO associates dislike you. So you present yourself to the MDs saying you are inferior, you'll never get a job that way. Then the DO community will dislike you for putting us down. You're going to be left all alone in the end, nobody will stand by you or offer you any help along the way.

For instance, if J1515 said he needed help with something that I could do, I would help. I see this person as a peer and would do what I could to help him/her. Not to be offensive, but if BTH needed help, even if it was something I could do, I wouldn't do it at this point.

I hear you. And I appreciate the feedback.

I do see that making certain statements about the osteopathic profession is offensive to people.

But, honestly, I don't really care how many people in the DO world get offended. If it wasn't true, I wouldn't say it.

Its time for osteopathic medicine to take a real hard look at itself. And I'm hardly the only person who thinks so: Many have pointed out the fact that 50+% of DO graduates go on to train in ACGME programs. When you ask why they switch to MD the #1 response is consistently "MD training programs are better."

We can't just ignore this. We have to acknowledge our problems, and get honest about how our schools differ from MD schools. And the answer isn't OMM.

I truly believe that some DO schools (like PCOM) are solid schools. The problem is, some of the schools (like Touro CA, NV, NY) are on really shaky ground in terms of clinical education.

This is a problem. It's a problem for us as a profession. It's also a problem for pre-meds applying to med school who get told "MD=DO", when that just isn't true.

If I wasn't $205,000 in debt from Touro's exorbitant tuition, I'd probably feel less fired up about this right now. Yeah, I bought it, but I was assured that the building inspectors (the AOA) had checked the foundation before I moved in. Man, was I wrong. Now I'm stuck in this house with a crappy foundation. It was my mistake, my mistake. But I think other people should know, "Yo, Buyer Beware with the DO degree." You need to really investigate your a DO school before you get there.

By investigate, I mean: Talk to graduates, 4th years and 3rd years. Do not rely on reports from 1st and 2nd years.

bth

 

[bth7]

I'll call you out on this one because it's a bold-faced lie. The AOA cannot create GME programs. Those are done by individual hospitals, with osteopathic schools often contributing. They can however help the situation along. They have put lots of time and effort into fostering GME growth including lobbying congress for bills that will make it easier for hospitals open new programs and gain initial funding. GME has been a very important part of the AOA's agenda recently. They are also working to assure that OGME programs maintain and improve quality. Maybe it hasn't been swift enough for you, but to say they are doing nothing is wrong. I don't agree with a lot of the things the AOA does, but I won't spread lies about them.

I'm sorry. But I simply disagree with you.

The AOA has let osteopathic GME slide into the toilet.

bth

 

[cuddlepuppy]

There are a few issues in comparing DO vs MD.

MEDICAL STUDENTS
DO students do not equal MD students. This is true from both sides. DO students often feel like they have something to prove against MD students. Why? Perhaps they feel inferior to them, when they shouldn't. From standpoint of MD programs, DO students definitely do not equal MD students in certain competitive specialties and programs. For example, I e-mailed a middle tier surgical specialty program about possibly rotating there for a sub-I. They responded by saying that they had tons of DOs in their family practice program. When I clarified that I was interested in their program, they said that they didn't allow DO students to rotate and that they have never taken a DO.

RESIDENTS
DO residents do equal MD residents. From my experience, as the only DO in my program, I have never felt inferior to my peers. Nor have I gotten any slack from attendings. However, I have had many people in the hospital (respiratory techs, nurses, patients, etc.) often ask what a DO is. I explain it to them and that's that.

ATTENDINGS
Observing the interactions of DO attendings vs MD attendings, I have not seen any discrimination. As someone else said, a great doctor is a great doctor...regardless of their degree.

SO...back to the original question once again. DO students does not always equal MD students when you apply for residencies. BUT, once you are in training, that ceases to matter. This is from experience, not hear say as a medical student.

 

[bth7]

From standpoint of MD programs, DO students definitely do not equal MD students in certain competitive specialties and programs. For example, I e-mailed a middle tier surgical specialty program about possibly rotating there for a sub-I. They responded by saying that they had tons of DOs in their family practice program. When I clarified that I was interested in their program, they said that they didn't allow DO students to rotate and that they have never taken a DO.

In my eyes, this is the crux of the issue.

As long as you know, understand and appreciate this reality, you're in good shape.

But you need to prepare yourself for the fact that this is the reality, and it won't be changing anytime soon.

Again, hardly the end of the world. Just something to know.

bth

 

[Bleurberry]

In my eyes, this is the crux of the issue.

As long as you know, understand and appreciate this reality, you're in good shape.

But you need to prepare yourself for the fact that this is the reality, and it won't be changing anytime soon.

Again, hardly the end of the world. Just something to know.

bth

Preparation is the key for any career, but especially a medical career, whether MD or DO. For my part, I looked at PCOM's program for a full 2 years before applying, and so there's very little surprises I'm in for in terms of which programs I at least have a fair chance of getting into that I'm interested in, the real work is just getting the scores, the letters, and the skill/confidence.

I'm sorry you've had a tough time. Keep positive, if possible, and think pragmatically; don't resign yourself to some fictitious inevitability just because you may have hit a brick wall. Walls are meant to be climbed, and I suspect you're still young enough to figure something out without committing yourself to a program that your hearts not in.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Preparation is the key for any career, but especially a medical career, whether MD or DO. For my part, I looked at PCOM's program for a full 2 years before applying, and so there's very little surprises I'm in for in terms of which programs I at least have a fair chance of getting into that I'm interested in, the real work is just getting the scores, the letters, and the skill/confidence.

I'm sorry you've had a tough time. Keep positive, if possible, and think pragmatically; don't resign yourself to some fictitious inevitability just because you may have hit a brick wall. Walls are meant to be climbed, and I suspect you're still young enough to figure something out without committing yourself to a program that your hearts not in.

great post.

 

[bigDinLV]

I hear you. And I appreciate the feedback.

I do see that making certain statements about the osteopathic profession is offensive to people.

But, honestly, I don't really care how many people in the DO world get offended. If it wasn't true, I wouldn't say it.

Its time for osteopathic medicine to take a real hard look at itself. And I'm hardly the only person who thinks so: Many have pointed out the fact that 50+% of DO graduates go on to train in ACGME programs. When you ask why they switch to MD the #1 response is consistently "MD training programs are better."

We can't just ignore this. We have to acknowledge our problems, and get honest about how our schools differ from MD schools. And the answer isn't OMM.

I truly believe that some DO schools (like PCOM) are solid schools. The problem is, some of the schools (like Touro CA, NV, NY) are on really shaky ground in terms of clinical education.

This is a problem. It's a problem for us as a profession. It's also a problem for pre-meds applying to med school who get told "MD=DO", when that just isn't true.

If I wasn't $205,000 in debt from Touro's exorbitant tuition, I'd probably feel less fired up about this right now. Yeah, I bought it, but I was assured that the building inspectors (the AOA) had checked the foundation before I moved in. Man, was I wrong. Now I'm stuck in this house with a crappy foundation. It was my mistake, my mistake. But I think other people should know, "Yo, Buyer Beware with the DO degree." You need to really investigate your a DO school before you get there.

By investigate, I mean: Talk to graduates, 4th years and 3rd years. Do not rely on reports from 1st and 2nd years.

bth

It is offensive because when you put the the profesison down you are putting down all the people in it. Which basically means all these things you are saying about how DO does not equal MD applies to me. I've worked my butt off to get where I am, I don't need anyone trying to bring my accomplishments down in any way. I've been on rotations with MD students, i'm not lacking in any aspect of my education.

If you are unhappy with your "foundation" then perhaps you should have worked a little harded to build it yourself. You can't expect everything in life to be spoon fed to you (no matter how much we pay in tuition) at some point if you have had a crappy educational experience then you are also partly to blame. There will be a rotation here and there that sucks, thats how life goes in general though. Good times and bad times...

 

[bth7]

Preparation is the key for any career, but especially a medical career, whether MD or DO. For my part, I looked at PCOM's program for a full 2 years before applying, and so there's very little surprises I'm in for in terms of which programs I at least have a fair chance of getting into that I'm interested in, the real work is just getting the scores, the letters, and the skill/confidence.

I'm glad you really checked out your program in advance. Sounds like that really paid off for you. As I've said on this forum many times before, PCOM seems to be offering some of the very best osteopathic education out there. They seem to really have the clinical years well-organized, a particular weakness of the newer DO schools.

I'm sorry you've had a tough time. Keep positive, if possible, and think pragmatically; don't resign yourself to some fictitious inevitability just because you may have hit a brick wall. Walls are meant to be climbed, and I suspect you're still young enough to figure something out without committing yourself to a program that your hearts not in.

This post really moved me. I thought about it off and on for the past week. Your comments are insightful and empathetic. I appreciate your attitude, and quite frankly, I think you are right.

This is a wall. I've hit it. I'm frustrated. I didn't know this wall would be here, and in some ways I feel very cheated. But . . . you are correct, attitude is everything, and I won't let this obstacle stand in the way of years of hard-work. 🙂

Thanks for your thoughtful encouragement.

bth

 

[tkim]

Brian, it's match season. You are bitter.

1) Is it the school?

2) Is it your stats?

3) Is it the places that didn't interview you?

You got to separate the issues and figure out what contributed to your bitterness. Your recent postings seem to focus on personal disappointments, and I'm wondering how much of your bitterness towards the osteopathic profession involves not getting interviews at places you wanted to go to.

Is this a component of your disappointment?

 

[bth7]

Brian, it's match season. You are bitter.

1) Is it the school?

2) Is it your stats?

3) Is it the places that didn't interview you?

You got to separate the issues and figure out what contributed to your bitterness. Your recent postings seem to focus on personal disappointments, and I'm wondering how much of your bitterness towards the osteopathic profession involves not getting interviews at places you wanted to go to.

Is this a component of your disappointment?

Your question is a good one. The answer of course is all of the above.

However, my recent postings have been response to one thing: the number of programs that do not interview DO's for their residency program. These programs have never interviewed a DO, and have no intention of doing do anytime soon, even if the most extraordinary DO candidate comes along.

These are not my words, they are the words of Residency Program Directors.

These are frustrating words to hear as a 4th year DO med student.

Did I get interviews? Yes. I am happy about my prospects? Yes.

Am I frustrated because I didn't fully appreciate the extent of anti-DO sentiment amongst competitive MD program directors? Absolutely.

But, the time to focus on that frustration is over. It's time to go out there and get the absolute best program I can. That's what I've worked very hard for over the last four years. I will not let this stop me.

🙂

bth

 

[JaggerPlate]

Your question is a good one. The answer of course is all of the above.

However, my recent postings have been response to one thing: the number of programs that do not interview DO's for their residency program. These programs have never interviewed a DO, and have no intention of doing do anytime soon, even if the most extraordinary DO candidate comes along.

These are not my words, they are the words of Residency Program Directors.

These are frustrating words to hear as a 4th year DO med student.

Did I get interviews? Yes. I am happy about my prospects? Yes.

Am I frustrated because I didn't fully appreciate the extent of anti-DO sentiment amongst competitive MD program directors? Absolutely.

But, the time to focus on that frustration is over. It's time to go out there and get the absolute best program I can. That's what I've worked very hard for over the last four years. I will not let this stop me.

🙂

bth

What specialty and geographical area??

 

[Instatewaiter]

I'm pretty confident that your perceptions are largely localized. If you came to Philadelphia/East Coast, or even Chicago, my take is you'd have a completely different view that'd be equally valid:

On the east coast, the acceptance of DOs is not universal. Philly has had a long history of DOs since PCOM has been around for over a century. Most other states on the E coast, especially Maryland and south are not as accepting.

My school takes DO AIs and has a good amt of DOs that are residents. I can however assure you that there are certain specialties in my hospital that will not even interview DOs.

Dont believe me: we have no DO surgery residents at any level in any surgical program in the hospital. That includes: ENT, optho, orth, general surgery, uro, neurosurg, vascular and even Ob-gyn in all levels of training. That is a few hundred surgery/Ob-gyn residents. Take it for what you will.

I am not saying that my school wont interview DO students for surgery slots. But were there no stigma I would expect at least a few just based on percentage of graduating students.

By investigate, I mean: Talk to graduates, 4th years and 3rd years. Do not rely on reports from 1st and 2nd years.

bth

Clinical education EVERYWHERE (MD and DO) does not feel like you are learning as much as you did 1st and 2nd year because the learning is different from the classroom experience you have been use to since grade school. Much of what you do feels like busy work when you are doing it but when you look back on what you have seen and done, you realize that you have learned a heck of a lot.

That said, when someone has gone through everything and feels like they are improperly trained, listen and avoid those sites.

No matter what the issue, the people on SDN that are the most vocal and vehement are those that don't have the experience. If you are a pre-med or a 1st or second year, you dont know about third year. If you haven't gone through the match, dont act like you are an expert. The anti-DO sentiment is out there but is often shot down on this site by those who cannot believe it exists. Will it be there once you are an attending. No. But it is a hurdle to get over as a student which is unfortunate and often overlooked.

 

[Red Beard]

Hi,

I'm still a pre-med, so please excuse my ignorance about this, but (even though it's early), I have an interest in these fields, listed in order of preferance:

1. Neurology/Opthalmology
2. General Surgery/Anesthesiology
3. Invasive Cardiology
4. Rheumatology/Physiatry
5. Emergency Medicine

So I was wondering how hard it is typically for DOs to match into these fields. In all honesty, I really want to do Opthalmology (although I would be extremely happy still with neurology, gen surgery, or anesthesiology), but I know even if I have an MD that the odds will be against me to get into it. That's why I'm mostly wondering about the other fields, because, with the exception of anesthesiology, and cardiology, these fields are traditionally not too difficult to get into (so I think I'm being generally reasonable), but would being a DO put me at a significant disadvantage for anything besides Opthalmology?

thanks

Sorry, don't have time to read the other replies, here's my 2 cents:

1. Neurology/Opthalmology
Neurology=not to hard, its not that competetive. Optho=forget it.

2. General Surgery/Anesthesiology
Doable but be prepared to be top of your class and its going to be an uphill battle

3. Invasive Cardiology
Doable but to get a good fellowship you are going to have to get into a good academic IM program first. Again, uphill battle.

4. Rheumatology/Physiatry
Not too bad

5. Emergency Medicine
Not too bad

Sources: Advice of preceptors, upperclassmen who have been through or are going through the residency app process.

 

[Es Pontas]

I understand that different fields have different difficulty levels but i heard that if you want to do something, you can almost always find a place to do it. For example, if you really want to be general surgeon and have low scores (relatively), etc. but really want to be a surgeon, there are residencies throughout the u.s. that not many people want (due to location, program rep., etc) and it is still possible to attain the goal. Is this true? Or in other words, if you really want to get into something and are a sub-par applicant, are there still programs out there where you can do what you want?

thanks so much!

 

[Lamborghini1315]

I understand that different fields have different difficulty levels but i heard that if you want to do something, you can almost always find a place to do it. For example, if you really want to be general surgeon and have low scores (relatively), etc. but really want to be a surgeon, there are residencies throughout the u.s. that not many people want (due to location, program rep., etc) and it is still possible to attain the goal. Is this true? Or in other words, if you really want to get into something and are a sub-par applicant, are there still programs out there where you can do what you want?

thanks so much!

If you bank on failure you will end up failing, do your part which is work hard and match the numbers required by most programs. I don't think it would be healthy for you to just hope that with sub par stats you can just clean up empty spots in undesirable locations. Also a lot of variables can account into who gets an empty spot during a scramble you just don't take it easy assuming there will be a place for ya after years of slacking. You want a competitive residency than the answer is your application has to be competitive in relative terms. Not all gen.surgery programs require a 250 plus but most require 220 minimum so those numbers should be your targets..alright hope it helps.

 

[sakmak]

A DO CAN SPECIALIZE IN......

Pulmonary Medicine
Radiology
Rheumatology
Sleep Disorders
Sports Medicine
Thoracic Surgery
Transplant Surgery
Trauma Surgery
Urology
Vascular Surgery





-2007, AMA.org

found that in another thread

So when you say that a DO can specialize in Sports Medicine, does that means that there is a separate residency for Sports Medicine. I know that for MD's, there is no residency called sports medicine. You have to go to some primary care residency first and then have a sports medicine fellowship, or you can go to an orthopedic surgery residency and then have a sports medicine fellowship. Is it different for DOs? Is there a sports medicine residency available for DOs? I looked at the AOA website http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/search.cfm to look at DO residencies and sports medicine was also listed there. So is there a Sports Medicine residency available for DOs?

 

[Taus]

So when you say that a DO can specialize in Sports Medicine, does that means that there is a separate residency for Sports Medicine. I know that for MD's, there is no residency called sports medicine. You have to go to some primary care residency first and then have a sports medicine fellowship, or you can go to an orthopedic surgery residency and then have a sports medicine fellowship. Is it different for DOs? Is there a sports medicine residency available for DOs? I looked at the AOA website http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/search.cfm to look at DO residencies and sports medicine was also listed there. So is there a Sports Medicine residency available for DOs?

no...no difference in routes to sports medicine

Non-surgical: FP/IM/Peds/EM/PM&R-->SM Fellowship
Surgical: Ortho-->SM Fellowship

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

Dont believe me: we have no DO surgery residents at any level in any surgical program in the hospital. That includes: ENT, optho, orth, general surgery, uro, neurosurg, vascular and even Ob-gyn in all levels of training. That is a few hundred surgery/Ob-gyn residents. Take it for what you will.

Actually there's a PCOM grad at the ophtho program at MCV.

But yeah, I agree with you for the most part, boss.

 

[sakmak]

no...no difference in routes to sports medicine

Non-surgical: FP/IM/Peds/EM/PM&R-->SM Fellowship
Surgical: Ortho-->SM Fellowship

so when i search for sports medicine residency programs on the website that i posted in my previous post and it gives a list of schools/hospitals and it says next to them sports medicine residency, are those fellowships or residencies?

 

[JaggerPlate]

so when i search for sports medicine residency programs on the website that i posted in my previous post and it gives a list of schools/hospitals and it says next to them sports medicine residency, are those fellowships or residencies?

Fellowship. They all start like PGY-4 ... which means after FP residency. No ACGME or AOA residency in 'sports medicine.'

 

[surag]

http://www.studentdoctor.net/2007/04/20-questions-rose-cunningham-ahumada-do-ophthalmology/#more-50

quit whining people the above link is a profile of DO ophthalmologist and please get the spelling right


Also, the director and head of orthopedic surgery at dartmouth is a DO from chicago

while its true that both got their residencies at a DO institute...they're obviously successful and I'm sure happy with what they've got. The salary levels for both are the same...and as you can see from the two examples its possible to score a top position at a well respected academic center as a DO in a fairly competitive specialty.

and one of the better known orthopedic surgeons for hand or is it foot and ankle? is a DO at Miami which is a well known institute.

Granted DO careers in plastics and ENT and Derm are probably difficult but its seriously not impossible to succeed in other fields or even be at the top of your class. So quit whining about DO this and DO that...its obviously harder because of bias and i hear about it from physicians I've met...but its not impossible or crazy to become a DO in one of these fields

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

That's awesome.




I don't see the top ACGME programs that reject DOs as being compensated by sub-standard AOA (DO) residencies. I just can't swallow that one.

I do agree with you, once you start working, people will know you, not your degree.

Yes, you can overcome the deficiency in the DO degree. Perhaps you can overcome it easily. However, its still there. It should be addressed, or at least noted, so everyone can plan accordingly.

bth

Dude, shut your ****ing word hole before you look like even more of an ignorant *******.

If you really think some of the competitive DO specialty residencies are sub-standard, you CERTAINLY don't know which way is up.

 

[MossPoh]

Dude, shut your ****ing word hole before you look like even more of an ignorant *******.

If you really think some of the competitive DO specialty residencies are sub-standard, you CERTAINLY don't know which way is up.

I might sub in "all" for "some". There is inevitably going to be SOME below par programs in both the osteopathic and allopathic worlds. That being said, the person makes the education. My dad used to head up some radiology stuff before slowing it down and going to private practice. He mentioned encountering lots of people that overcame crappy training. They just turned it up a notch and took every chance possible to continue learning. It wasn't instant, but a year or two in private practice and a lifetime of reading nearly every journal article you can get your hands on, along with going above the call of duty with CME helps a lot.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

I might sub in "all" for "some". There is inevitably going to be SOME below par programs in both the osteopathic and allopathic worlds. That being said, the person makes the education. My dad used to head up some radiology stuff before slowing it down and going to private practice. He mentioned encountering lots of people that overcame crappy training. They just turned it up a notch and took every chance possible to continue learning. It wasn't instant, but a year or two in private practice and a lifetime of reading nearly every journal article you can get your hands on, along with going above the call of duty with CME helps a lot.

I didnt mean "all" as in all encompassing. I was agreeing with him that some are sub-par, but not "all"