Question about the debt?

[Skip Intro]

Sorry, I don't deal with anecdotes...

What?!? ALL you "deal with" is anecdotes.

-Skip

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[aformerstudent]

What?!? ALL you "deal with" is anecdotes.

-Skip

You have a nice day too.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

According to SGU's charts, the math is >$400K.

Let's assume an August start.

We start with the first table -- That's terms 1 & 2. The total is $88K (going to round for math simplicity).

Next, we skip two tables. Those are for January starts. So we skip the the table for Term 3 and 4/5. That's $106K.

Then, we're on to clinicals. The last table is 2 clinical terms. According to their website, you need 5 clinical terms. Each is about $43K. $43K x 5 = $215K

Total 88 + 106 + 215 = $409K.

In their financial planning presentations, they quote a 4 year cost of $380K, however this is based upon 2016 rates, and tuition has gone up.

If you add up just the Tuition costs (including fees, etc. Everything in the top half of each table), you get about $310K, and presumably you need some $$ for food.

Not sure how many people actually pay full freight. My experience with my child going to college is that all of the schools have jacked up tuition, but then they give out scholarships, so it makes it look like you're getting a great deal. Almost like pricing in healthcare. I've seen lots of SGU apps to residency which report all sorts of scholarships. So perhaps real cost of attendance is lower.

 

[shouldigomd]

My friends are anecdotal lol?? You're a real winner dude.

Again, I'll direct you to my discussion of "Cost of Attendance." If you wish, you can pull up that information on SGU's website.

Here, I did the work for you...Student Budgets - myCampus

Now go away kid, you're wasting my time.

Haha I feel for you... I really do.

 

[shouldigomd]

According to SGU's charts, the math is >$400K.

Let's assume an August start.

We start with the first table -- That's terms 1 & 2. The total is $88K (going to round for math simplicity).

Next, we skip two tables. Those are for January starts. So we skip the the table for Term 3 and 4/5. That's $106K.

Then, we're on to clinicals. The last table is 2 clinical terms. According to their website, you need 5 clinical terms. Each is about $43K. $43K x 5 = $215K

Total 88 + 106 + 215 = $409K.

In their financial planning presentations, they quote a 4 year cost of $380K, however this is based upon 2016 rates, and tuition has gone up.

If you add up just the Tuition costs (including fees, etc. Everything in the top half of each table), you get about $310K, and presumably you need some $$ for food.

Not sure how many people actually pay full freight. My experience with my child going to college is that all of the schools have jacked up tuition, but then they give out scholarships, so it makes it look like you're getting a great deal. Almost like pricing in healthcare. I've seen lots of SGU apps to residency which report all sorts of scholarships. So perhaps real cost of attendance is lower.

It is inflated as you mention. They have to assume the most $$ possibly spent to avoid fraudulent info. Some things are much higher than they actually are which isn't obvious unless you have been hence the reason I post at all. A few obvious examples. Travel 3K?? GND to JFK (for example) costs less than 1K round trip. I guess it may cost 3K if you are flying to the deep Philippine Jungle in a turbo prop. They estimate food / misc fees to be 5K a term? Thats some high quality food right there and perhaps frequent shopping sprees to the Grenadian mall. Books 1500 a term? The only term where they try and force you to buy books is term 1 and they cost 900 bucks in total. You don't need any of them and hopefully it has been changed as that is a waste of resources. The island is full of Stedmans dictionaries that would be refused for even burning material. No books required as you study from provided notes. Those are just a few examples.

 

[el_duderino]

It is inflated as you mention. They have to assume the most $$ possibly spent to avoid fraudulent info. Some things are much higher than they actually are which isn't obvious unless you have been hence the reason I post at all. A few obvious examples. Travel 3K?? GND to JFK (for example) costs less than 1K round trip. I guess it may cost 3K if you are flying to the deep Philippine Jungle in a turbo prop. They estimate food / misc fees to be 5K a term? Thats some high quality food right there and perhaps frequent shopping sprees to the Grenadian mall. Books 1500 a term? The only term where they try and force you to buy books is term 1 and they cost 900 bucks in total. You don't need any of them and hopefully it has been changed as that is a waste of resources. The island is full of Stedmans dictionaries that would be refused for even burning material. No books required as you study from provided notes. Those are just a few examples.

Factor in interest as well. $80,000 in the first year becomes about $100,000 at graduation.

 

[aformerstudent]

I thought this discussion was over?

 

[Skip Intro]

According to SGU's charts, the math is >$400K.

I'm not sure how you did your math, but I already calculated it here:

$283,434.00​

Question about the debt?

This is all tuition, fees, books, insurances, etc. for the entire program, which was carefully calculated from current information on their website within the past two weeks. It doesn't include living expenses, which I also explained in that post.

Ross's tuition, books, fees, insurance, etc. is $241,271.50 which was also carefully calculated from information current on their website within the past two weeks.

Question about the debt?

-Skip

 

[aformerstudent]

^ This is the wisdom from the "graduate."

I posted a chart from SGU's website which clearly lays out the "cost of attendance" in plain English and this guy starts making up his own numbers that better fit his narrative.

Ask yourself this though. If this person is not including living expenses in their calculation, who is going to foot that bill? Are you going to put those living expenses on credit? I'm confused with where he wants that bill to fit in. Wouldn't it make more sense to include every cost you will incur during the program in the full "cost of attendance?" Hence, the 400K price tag.

 

[Skip Intro]

I posted a chart from SGU's website ...<snip>

Presumably, you are talking about this.

The numbers posted there for tuition match what I posted above and are accurate. As per usual, your reading comprehension skills and flagrant use of both ad hominem and selective reasoning get in your way.

Others on this very thread have already disputed such things as the "miscellaneous" costs (calculated by this blogger to be in the thousands per 16-week term). And, I already laid-out that the notion you would spend more than $30k/year - actual (and not pre-tax) money - in living expenditures is ridiculous. So, everything you object to, also as per usual, has already been answered and addressed.

In the meantime, I can only continue to refer other readers back to this post.

-Skip

 

[aformerstudent]

Tuition + fees + room & board = cost of attendance

If you write that out 10x, it might start to makes some sense to you.

 

[Skip Intro]

Tuition + fees + room & board = cost of attendance

... that I already addressed in my other post (which you apparently either didn't read or perhaps can't comprehend).

-Skip

 

[Skip Intro]

Even total indirect off-campus costs at the most expensive medical school in the country in one of the most expensive cities in the U.S. is less than what you guys are calculating. That is, living in Boston, MA!

Cost of Attendance MD and MDPhD 2016-17 | Tufts University School of Medicine

St. George's is not more expensive than that! Period!

-Skip

 

[aformerstudent]

I suggest you direct your concern regarding this matter to the St. George's University School of Medicine.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I'm not sure how you did your math

I am 100% certain I did my math. Wrong.

I swear I added it up again, and got a total >300K with just tuition alone. Then, to show you how wrong you were, I wrote it all out in a nice post here on SDN. Actually, I was going to PM it to you so I didn't embarrass you. But after writing it all out, I got your total. So basically, I'm an idiot. I assume I kept adding terms 3 and 4 twice.

I think what we can all agree upon is that medical school is expensive regardless of where you go.

 

[Skip Intro]

I think what we can all agree upon is that medical school is expensive regardless of where you go.

No argument here.

And, furthermore, I would be the last person to suggest that current tuition at the "big 4" Caribbean schools, which are the only ones who have a demonstrated long track record of consistently placing graduates into U.S. and Canadian residency and represent the best chances for aspiring students, is anything other than outrageous. But, again, most people who fail at the "Caribbean conquest" will do so long before they walk to the graduation podium and it will be the rarer candidate who amasses that much debt and still has absolutely nothing to show for it. It happens, yes. But, it also happens to U.S. graduates at a proportionate yet equally alarming rate.

Additionally, if we're arguing cost, I think people should also take a serious look at just how much osteopathic education costs. Interestingly, the more recent osteopathic education model is similar to the Caribbean model (i.e., centralized classwork with remote clinical rotations). These schools have blossomed with many new ones in the past 10 years. There are currently 30 to choose from. Some have very large classes. If you are out-of-state and go to Michigan State's osteopathic program, it's going to cost you roughly $82,000/year for tuition alone. That is unconscionable.

With all the regulatory hassle and the cost containment measures, it is rapidly becoming not worth it. Everyone should consider, if everything goes well and you actually succeed, just how in debt you're going to be in an environment where doctors are increasingly being seen as nothing more than equivalent and replaceable "providers" on the healthcare team where protocols and standardized care prevail. And, that's not going to get any better.

-Skip

 

[aformerstudent]

I don't get which way you're going in your argument. I think we're trying to get the same message across but we're speaking different languages.

My argument has always been the Caribbean route is risky for the average person because, at best, they'll become a doctor with a lot of debt but at worst, they will most probably get into a lot of debt and NOT become a doctor. Every time I make that argument, you seem to think it is not a valid one for reasons unbeknownst to me and then you post the above which pretty much agrees with what I've been saying. With that whole SGU tuition argument, it was never about the exact total amount, the argument was that the "opportunity" to study medicine was A LOT of money. 375, 380, 400K...it's a lot of money. I'm still firm that the end result is 400K in debt after four years because that is the max amount of loans the financial aid office will allow you to take. So you might argue that that is an unrealistic number but there is at least one person will graduate with 400K in debt and will then be half a million in debt by the time they are done with an IM residency.

People don't fail at the Caribbean because they are dumb or whatever reason you are thinking. If you were to take what society would construe as a "dumb" person I think it's safe to say you would not find that person at a Caribbean medical school. What you will find however is a lot of people who are in way over their heads, who took that risk because they wanted to become a doctor when no other opportunity was available. Some succeed but I say a lot more fail.

Today, some other Caribbean school will grant me another "opportunity" to study medicine. I've decided not to take it because I know it will be the same thing all over again. And that is the message I will put out there. Some people can take that with a grain of salt and others should really listen to it.

Yes, medical school is expensive and, at least with the Caribbean route, has significant risk involved. That's what I want the unknowing applicant to see. The school's are set up in such a way that they prey on people like this.

Also, I will be writing a more professional article regarding my experience in the Caribbean and presenting it to the SDN editors for approval. I would like you're support and others as I begin work on this project. I promise it to be worthwhile reading.

 

[shouldigomd]

Your entire purpose of starting this argument was to illustrate how SGU / caribbean are so expensive compared to US counterparts. Just scroll up .... If you want support how about start with accepting facts rather than clinging to what you want to be true??

SGU / Ross do not prey on anyone. The argument that can be made are for those who are too stubborn to acknowledge the fact that medicine isn't for them. It isn't easy and unfortunately those are the ones who fall "victim." SGU / Ross supply a fair opportunity to people who for the most part have no other. A business model developed due to the American system. People aren't "screwed," tests aren't rigged to meet clinical spots, etc etc. SGU isn't crystal clear on how many drop out but match lists are there for the past 10 years. If you go in thinking you are going to be an ENT with a B average and a 240 step 1... that is a problem. SGU hosts many seminars with recent graduates and you can speak with recent graduates for free on the phone (they offer us $$ to talk to prospective students). You can bypass rumors spread on the internet and get the reality from recent grads themselves.

"A lot more fail than succeed" is 100% false. Perhaps at some of the small no name carib schools ( I have no clue about those schools). I would say 40% (which is an overestimate) do not make it from 1st term to match. The vast majority who start at SGU end up as practicing physicians.

I don't understand the point of your statement "at best they will be a doctor with a lot of debt." Is that not the goal? Med school costs $$... Good things don't come easy without hard work / sacrifice.

People fail in the carib for many reasons but in my opinion. Med school is hard and not everyone is cut out for it plain and simple. Starting in term 1 it is immediately obvious about 5-10% of students who will fail by the end of the term. Many are plain dumb (yes that is mean), many have mental issues (autistic spectrum / etc), many have no interest in working hard right from the start (focus on party / sports / etc)... Another 10% fail because they are unable to invest the necessary effort (that is consistent hard work day in and day out) or change their ways that lead them to problems in the past. The last 10% fail even after investing the effort. They tried and failed. Another 3-5% leave because they change their minds about medicine, have family problems, other misc life stuff.

 

[aformerstudent]

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah." SGU / Ross supply a fair opportunity to people who for the most part have no other. A business model developed due to the American system. People aren't "screwed," tests aren't rigged to meet clinical spots, etc etc. SGU isn't crystal clear on how many drop out blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ham and cheese blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blac chyna and rob kardashian blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

That's all I read and that's all anyone else is going to read. You're argument will always fall flat on its face if you actually admit a school lacks transparency. And that is one of the hallmarks of my argument with the Caribbean. I really didn't read your argument any further sorry.

 

[aformerstudent]

The vast majority who start at SGU end up as practicing physicians.

Here's my challenge to you. I disagree with the above 100%. You seem to agree with it. Why don't you provide data to support this claim?

I would like you to find out how many people martriculated during the August and January terms in 2013 and then let us know how many of THOSE students graduated in 2017. After all, you claim the "vast majority" who start END UP as practicing physicians. Back that claim up. First, I'd like to see how you get the numbers because SGU sure as hell won't give them to you. But with some research you should be able to contact a student who still has the beginning roster from those early terms and maybe you can find a students with an ending roster in term 5 and then you can check the match list...if they even list names on it.

Why don't you do that and then go on with your ramblings. The Caribbean is a giant risk. That's the more reasonable argument. Stay tuned to my article.

 

[shouldigomd]

My argument? The purpose of my post is to give things from the perspective of someone who JUST WENT THROUGH SGU and acknowledges the fact that the data isn't transparent. I am not here as an advocate of the school but an advocate of reality. Ask me or anyone who went through SGU / Ross and we share a bond in that we have a lot of the same gripes / complaints.

Nobody has argued with you that the Caribbean is a risk. But when you stay 100% fallacies like it costs 400K and the vast majority of people fail.... I don't know what to think. But anyway clearly you won't change your ways and honestly maybe you are just upset that medicine didn't work out for you. I am sorry man.

 

[aformerstudent]

My argument? The purpose of my post is to give things from the perspective of someone who JUST WENT THROUGH SGU and acknowledges the fact that the data isn't transparent. I am not here as an advocate of the school but an advocate of reality. Ask me or anyone who went through SGU / Ross and we share a bond in that we have a lot of the same gripes / complaints.

Nobody has argued with you that the Caribbean is a risk. But when you stay 100% fallacies like it costs 400K and the vast majority of people fail.... I don't know what to think. But anyway clearly you won't change your ways and honestly maybe you are just upset that medicine didn't work out for you. I am sorry man.

As I pointed out to you earlier. Go get those stats from the entering 2013 classes and compare them to who matched in 2017. Then you can get back to your yapping.

Again, anybody who has set foot on a Caribbean medical school campus is well-qualified to discuss a Caribbean school. You and others still seem to think that there's this imaginary fraternity of Carib grads who can only talk about the school lol. That sounded pretty stupid just typing it.

Oh I'm not upset about medicine. I'm actually relieved in many ways.

I'm just the voice of reason and I don't know why but you seem to have a problem with that.

Anyway, get those stats and get back to us or close your mouth.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

@aformerstudent, you're being a bit hard headed about this. Of most of the Carib schools, SGU is one of the most transparent.

According to their own website, they admitted 521 students this last term. Since they have two terms a year, that's somewhere around 1000 students starting (class sizes have been rising, so 4 years ago they were likely somewhat smaller).

The NYT article about SGU reported that for the 2013 class: 65% completed in 4 years, 20% completed in 5 years, 4% completed in 6+ years, 1% transferred, and 10% dropped out. Not sure where they got those numbers from, but let's see if they make sense.

SGU also mentions on their website that 90% of their 2017 graduates matched to a position (which also includes SOAP),
If SGU admits 1000 students, but then 25% of the class decelerates, that means that subsequent classes will be larger. 1000 students - 10% drop outs + 25% decelerates = 1150 students (I'm simplifying things here)

If we look at SGU's match list for 2017, we see that:
929 total PGY-1 matches
913 total PGY-1 matches in the US/Canada (There were 16 people who started an internship in Tobago, presumably what they wanted to do)

929/1150 = 80% (total positions)

Of those 913 matches, 77 were prelims which although is a match, might still leave the student needing a full residency. The SGU match list doesn't clarify whether these people also matched to advanced programs, or not.

So, my bottom line:

1. SGU is rather transparent with their outcomes.
2. SGU's drop out rate is probably more like 15-20%.
3. It appears that at least 80% of SGU students end up with a residency position. Whether a "prelim only" match should count as a success is unclear, although I expect most of those people find a further spot (but that is a guess on my part). Even if we discount these matches, it's still a match rate of 75+%
4. Saying that the "A lot more fail than succeed" is not true.
5. I agree that attending medical school in the carib is a risky proposition. However, that risk differs by school.
6. Whether SGU is "giving people a fair second chance" or "marketing unrealistic dreams to naive undergrads" totally depends upon your viewpoint. Some would see a 20% drop out rate as an unacceptable failure on the school's part. Others will see an 80% success rate as a reasonable chance.
7. Even with clear data beforehand, I expect that most SGU matriculants would likely choose to attend, as none of them think that they will be in the 20% that fails.

 

[aformerstudent]

I see where you're coming from and I'll respect your position @aProgDirector

But coming from a Caribbean school, the stat they they are not showing you, and this is what I wanted the other guy to point out, is how many of those students that first step foot on a Caribbean medical school campus actually become doctors? That's the basis of my argument here. We're choosing to talk about SGU for convenience sake since more people are familiar with it but this is how all of those schools works.

No school will tell you exactly how many people "drop out" or "fail" or even decel the program because they mix that number in with people who voluntarily leave. JUST LIKE ME. I would never be calculated in MUA's attrition rate because I never failed out. Technically, I'm still a student at the school! It's as if I never existed. Honestly, it's better that way for MUA and that's how they can get their accreditation. They can just say "well he left it's not our fault." That's the gray area nobody wants to talk about. Right now at MUA, there are around 20 people from an original class of 115 when I started who were registered for the fifth term. That is not close to 15-20%. The class itself is 45 but that includes people who repeated a term or even two. That's INSANE and this is just basic sciences. In MUA's case, it can then be inferred that a lot more fail than do succeed and this is a 50-state approved school with title IV loans. The government seems to think it's a legitimate operation. I know nothing about MUA clinicals because they keep that under lock and key. When our clinical dean comes to visit, they check us for recording devices. Ask any MUA student how the drill works. We cannot have anything on our desks when she speaks and she is constantly scanning the room. Because when she spews her lies, they don't want to get sued. As medical students in earlier terms, we never even had access to all of the clinical site locations. We were just told that there were enough. SGU is certainly different in that regard but how much different?

With your point #3, that actually is a more conservative number. I was told more like 84 or 85% of SGU students who ENTER the match actually match on their first try by one of those SGU students who answer the phones at their Long Island office. I don't think we could ever come up with a percentage for the group I had mentioned above because there is so much information that is swept under the rug so to speak. To further elaborate my point, lets take every single SGU grad both past and present and then compare that number to every student that registered for a term at SGU since 1977. That's the risk I'm talking about; the number won't be 80% of those who came to Grenada became doctors.

Again, once you clear STEP 1, I think you certainly have a good chance of becoming a doctor at some point especially if you take the SGU route and I never argued that. That's not my audience however, I'm speaking for those people who are essentially unaccounted for statistics who go down this route because SGU thinks they have what it takes to become a doctor. If I showed you some of the people that got accepted into MUA, it would blow your mind. That's the huge risk I'm referring to. It's a big deal. Those students who get kicked out or leave or whatever essentially finance the clinical terms with their tuition money. It's all an elaborate money-making business model and it's actually unethical.

The problem I have is those other guys who ignore that as if it doesn't exist and then blame those same people for going to a Caribbean school in the first place. It's SGU that's wrong not those students.

I've seen people fail at two and three schools. Some people here will laugh at them, I feel sorry for them.

The other guys' arguments would be more believable if they actually said, "you can do it but it's incredibly risky." I don't hear that from them and I find it hard to believe that their experience was a walk in the park so to speak.

 

[mcat_taker]

I see where you're coming from and I'll respect your position @aProgDirector

But coming from a Caribbean school, the stat they they are not showing you, and this is what I wanted the other guy to point out, is how many of those students that first step foot on a Caribbean medical school campus actually become doctors? That's the basis of my argument here. We're choosing to talk about SGU for convenience sake since more people are familiar with it but this is how all of those schools works.

No school will tell you exactly how many people "drop out" or "fail" or even decel the program because they mix that number in with people who voluntarily leave. JUST LIKE ME. I would never be calculated in MUA's attrition rate because I never failed out. Technically, I'm still a student at the school! It's as if I never existed. Honestly, it's better that way for MUA and that's how they can get their accreditation. They can just say "well he left it's not our fault." That's the gray area nobody wants to talk about. Right now at MUA, there are around 20 people from an original class of 115 when I started who were registered for the fifth term. That is not close to 15-20%. The class itself is 45 but that includes people who repeated a term or even two. That's INSANE and this is just basic sciences. In MUA's case, it can then be inferred that a lot more fail than do succeed and this is a 50-state approved school with title IV loans. The government seems to think it's a legitimate operation. I know nothing about MUA clinicals because they keep that under lock and key. When our clinical dean comes to visit, they check us for recording devices. Ask any MUA student how the drill works. We cannot have anything on our desks when she speaks and she is constantly scanning the room. Because when she spews her lies, they don't want to get sued. As medical students in earlier terms, we never even had access to all of the clinical site locations. We were just told that there were enough. SGU is certainly different in that regard but how much different?

With your point #3, that actually is a more conservative number. I was told more like 84 or 85% of SGU students who ENTER the match actually match on their first try by one of those SGU students who answer the phones at their Long Island office. I don't think we could ever come up with a percentage for the group I had mentioned above because there is so much information that is swept under the rug so to speak. To further elaborate my point, lets take every single SGU grad both past and present and then compare that number to every student that registered for a term at SGU since 1977. That's the risk I'm talking about; the number won't be 80% of those who came to Grenada became doctors.

Again, once you clear STEP 1, I think you certainly have a good chance of becoming a doctor at some point especially if you take the SGU route and I never argued that. That's not my audience however, I'm speaking for those people who are essentially unaccounted for statistics who go down this route because SGU thinks they have what it takes to become a doctor. If I showed you some of the people that got accepted into MUA, it would blow your mind. That's the huge risk I'm referring to. It's a big deal. Those students who get kicked out or leave or whatever essentially finance the clinical terms with their tuition money. It's all an elaborate money-making business model and it's actually unethical.

The problem I have is those other guys who ignore that as if it doesn't exist and then blame those same people for going to a Caribbean school in the first place. It's SGU that's wrong not those students.

I've seen people fail at two and three schools. Some people here will laugh at them, I feel sorry for them.

The other guys' arguments would be more believable if they actually said, "you can do it but it's incredibly risky." I don't hear that from them and I find it hard to believe that their experience was a walk in the park so to speak.

But you can't lump all these Caribbean schools together. Just because thats what happens at MUA and that was YOUR experience there doesn't mean you can authoritatively say, well this happens at SGU/Ross then too. And this is what you are doing in your argument (and then calling out a guy who actually graduated from SGU who disagrees with you). There is a reason they call them the big 4 schools and then everything else in the Caribbean. There are dozens of schools in that region and you can't lump them in with the big 4, which are the only ones recommended for people to attend anyway.

 

[aformerstudent]

But you can't lump all these Caribbean schools together. Just because thats what happens at MUA and that was YOUR experience there doesn't mean you can authoritatively say, well this happens at SGU/Ross then too. And this is what you are doing in your argument (and then calling out a guy who actually graduated from SGU who disagrees with you). There is a reason they call them the big 4 schools and then everything else in the Caribbean. There are dozens of schools in that region and you can't lump them in with the big 4, which are the only ones recommended for people to attend anyway.

You're not a Caribbean student. Stop talking like you have some experience with that route. You know that guy from SGU lol? Some guy comes on here and says they graduated from SGU and you think he's the Messiah.

What's the reason they call them big 4 genius? Tell me your explanation. IMG is IMG. Big 4 is a misnomer. Anybody who GRADUATED from the Caribbean should tell you that with little to no bias. Ask uncle Skip to chime in.

The SGU grad who matched to IM is the same as the MUA grad who matched into IM. If you have a problem comprehending that, I suggest you discuss that with a program director and perhaps they can draw it out for you with little figures.

You obviously do not know anything about the Caribbean so please stop making these threads longer.

 

[mcat_taker]

You're not a Caribbean student. Stop talking like you have some experience with that route. You know that guy from SGU lol? Some guy comes on here and says they graduated from SGU and you think he's the Messiah.

What's the reason they call them big 4 genius? Tell me your explanation. IMG is IMG. Big 4 is a misnomer. Anybody who GRADUATED from the Caribbean should tell you that with little to no bias. Ask uncle Skip to chime in.

The SGU grad who matched to IM is the same as the MUA grad who matched into IM. If you have a problem comprehending that, I suggest you discuss that with a program director and perhaps they can draw it out for you with little figures.

You obviously do not know anything about the Caribbean so please stop making these threads longer.

Um. My explanation? They call them the big 4 because they give you the best chance to get a residency/a more competitive residency program. If a student wants to take the risk of going to the Caribbean, he can mitigate the risk by going to a big 4 which have a longer track record of success than some of the newer schools. It's really not that hard a concept to understand. Its like choosing to go to Stanford for college and having better job prospects afterwards rather then choosing to go to a run of the mill state school. Can you get the same job after college from both? Maybe, but you would have an easier time getting that job if you attended Stanford compared to ____ state.

Yes, of course an SGU grad who matched IM is the same as a MUA grad who matched IM. At that point the school doesn't matter anymore, but the SGU grad likely had an EASIER time to get to that point due to better clinical locations, more support, more alumni connections, and programs familiar with the larger volume of SGU grads and maybe they get a better location and a better program for IM. So really you can't compare MUA to SGU. Starting out in both, one gives you the better probability of success.

 

[aformerstudent]

Thank you for proving to us that you have no idea what you are talking about. That was the most stupid explanation I have ever heard in my life.

 

[shouldigomd]

Your "voice of reason" comes from going to one of the lesser known carib schools without having lasted even 50% of the way. You haven't even taken step 1 but you speak on behalf of the entire match process. Yet you are here debating (and now resorting to rudeness) me / others telling what SGU is really like, how much it really costs, and how many people really fail based on limited experience at another school.

BIG 4 is a misnomer? The BIG 4 isn't for me to flaunt my SGU diploma to MUA grads and say look at me I am better because im BIG 4 !!! The BIG 4 is a term that was brought up to describe the carib schools with the best track record of residency placements in the USA. It has nothing to do with post match ... You have said in past posts many times that SGU is likely the best in the caribbean in terms of residency chances ... so hence you are in agreement with the concept.

How is the business model unethical? How are people being lied to? You keep saying this with no real explanation. SGU gives you an opportunity which is there for you to take. You are advocating for the people who failed out of carib schools early because they failed and now you point to the school as the culprit but not the student?? Most students accept carib spots because they have no other choice and want to be a doctor. It is a fair opportunity. If it is unfair please elaborate how. That would be worthwhile to put in your article. Did they make tests that were too hard and intentionally failed out students at MUA ? That would be unfair... Did they not have clinical spots available to you and left you stranded for months without rotations that hurt your residency application timing? That would be unfair. Did you get A / Bs in all your classes 1st try, get a 235 on the steps 1st attempt, and not match into FM.... that would be unfair.

Its like the army. You have to "try out" and unfortunately not everyone can make it... Lives are at stake.

 

[aformerstudent]

Why are you still responding? I thought we went over all of this already?

I don't know why you insist on making this personal. Perhaps you are losing this argument and are trying to save face? I'm not attacking you. I could easily castigate you and say you were too incompetent to get into a US school and become a legitimate doctor the "right way" but you don't see me doing that right?

I suggest you be a real man and deal with this argument for what it is. These discussions are not about me actually.

Nobody is arguing about the ranking of these schools. You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with that idea. You are right however in that I do agree that SGU is the best opportunity if you were to go down the Caribbean route but if an MUA guy gets 260 and you get a 235, do you honestly think the SGU pedigree is going to save your butt? That's essentially what your argument is saying.

There is no such thing as a "big 4." That's just stuff that people like you buy into. Your friend the MCAT taker gave this stupid example of Standford lol and state schools which made zero sense. Categorizing Caribbean schools into the "big 4" is like taking a bunch of prostitutes and saying "These four are really nice girls!"

I've explained in detail from my observations that there is no correct strategy to surviving a Caribbean medical school. I've seen straight-A students fail a class and I've seen C-students TA classes and finish the program. I don't care to repeat my previous posts as you can refer to them at your convenience.

It's just a lot easier to tell the average student applying to these schools to be very cautious about what they are signing up for. Let's face it, if they were well-qualified they wouldn't be applying to these schools.

It's great that you and uncle Skip and others have graduated from these schools. I don't question that nor do I really care. I'm just saying that I would be very cautious of telling someone that just because you did it that they can do it as well. These schools are designed to work a certain way and with a for-profit model as their primary goal, it is probably a lot wiser to tell anyone applying to the Caribbean to proceed with caution.

My article is going to be titled along the lines "Things to consider before taking the Caribbean route."

And I want to say this again so it starts to stick with you...The Caribbean experience is broken into two parts; basic sciences and clinical medicine. If you can't make it through basic sciences, you don't move forward. This is the group I am speaking to. I'm actually not criticizing your group but you feel the need to chime in and I don't know why.

If you want to continue this further, you need to produce stronger arguments...after all you claim to be a graduate. I want to see numbers since you should have rosters dating back to your first term.

 

[shouldigomd]

Your posts have changed and evolved such a tremendous amount I don't think anyone knows what you are saying anymore. Are we still talking about SGU costing over 400K?? Or have we buried that? I could go on and on.

Stronger arguments? My arguments are reality lol. Your defense is to have me find out a online source of exactly how many students start at SGU and drop out which everyone knows does not exist. That is why it is important to talk to graduates to get info from the horses mouth. I can only speak on behalf of my experience there with how many dropped out / etc. And it isn't "the vast majority." The majority make it through. Ill be the first to say the numbers are not transparent (I have said this many times before) and I have plenty of gripes with SGU. There are many things that should be evaluated before even considering SGU. That would be a good article topic but you seem to think SGU is the problem and not the student. SGU is nothing more than an opportunity / 2nd chance for people.

You did nothing to address the main points of my post. How are the basic sciences unfair? or lying? or screwing these people you are targeting? That is the entire purpose of your article is it not? To show how SGU is an evil $$ machine screwing / deceiving people? I'm waiting for the answer to this

You say I make it personal when you began insulting me and are telling me to "be a man??" I don't really know what to say to that.

Yes, there is such thing as the BIG 4 although that may be changing as other schools are perhaps gaining prestige. Maybe now the BIG5?? The point is that not all carib schools are equal in terms of residency placements. I did not say a MUA 260 < SGU 235 so don't put those words in my mouth. I say a SGU 230 > MUA 230 and will likely have more interview offers and opportunities overall. That isn't to say they wont both match or that MUA students are inferior. No clue why you are now saying I am looking down on other IMG programs. IMG students have a bond in that we share a struggle. I don't know of any carib IMG that looks down on another carib IMG for the school they went to. Finding another carib IMG on the interview trail is an instant bond. You said you argue on behalf of the basic sciences but this concept is about the clinical / match process of which you have no experience. It is about the fact that residency programs often look beyond the numbers and build "reputations" with school graduates. Many programs take lots of Ross students vs SGU students vs AUC students vs etc. There were many schools I was over qualified for that I did not get offers from while many lower tier Rossies got interviews for. Match trends are important... even in US programs. Maybe this is foreign to you which is why you don't understand what the "BIG 4" means.

 

[aformerstudent]

I think you're being arrogant and trying to use the "graduate" status as leverage. That's up to you. As I stated earlier, that's of no interest to me.

Now lets look at your argument...

Let's take an SGU student who was dismissed after two terms. This could be any student actually from any school. Are you suggesting that student does not know "how the Caribbean works?" Did you get more tidbits of information from the school about how they work because you passed? I don't get what you're saying. What I'm saying is be it you or be it that student who did not make it out of basic sciences, neither one knows more or less about how the program works.

You're arguments are YOUR reality. You are obviously blinded and biased because you graduated. If your arguments were reality, you wouldn't have high attrition at every single Caribbean school. You have got to be kidding me if you don't understand that. If I was biased, I would be telling people NOT to go to the Caribbean but you see me telling them to go to an established school like SGU because I know I would have succeeded had I taken that route. If attrition was in the single digits, then I don't think I'd be here making a case. That's why I asked you to get those rosters and put the data together. You know you have rosters. Did you delete them already or are you hiding them because you don't want to argue the data they show? I still have all my MUA files even though I will never be looking at them. Attrition in four years will be above 50% on average at all of these schools if you were to compile all that data. Maybe less than that at SGU hence why I said go to SGU if you must go down this path but definitely not 20% over the course of four years. The calculation I gave for MUA is like 80% already in basic sciences!

I don't even know what you're arguing exactly. You typed this

There are many things that should be evaluated before even considering SGU.

Isn't that where my arguments come from? You type this but then you go off on tangents saying only stupid people fail out. To remind you and others, I said the Caribbean is legitimate but not all schools are legitimate...like MUA for example. I clearly said SGU will work for "the right student." I know you guys understand what I'm saying or where I'm going with that but you seem to think that by not graduating that I somehow don't know what I'm talking about and I don't know where that is coming from.

To address your points: The basic sciences in the Caribbean are not fair compared to US programs for many reasons. I won't go into all of them but the Caribbean route is 100% self-learning. Honestly, if a Caribbean school could get away with eliminating classes and keep their accreditations, they would do it!!! Most of the professors can't speak English properly, can't teach American students the way American students were taught in their own country, and some don't even carry the same qualifications as those in the US. Some schools, like MUA, have MANDATORY attendance. Did you have to sit in class for eight hours at SGU? I did. I'll even go as far as to say YOU would never survive MUA. I can't prove anything but I know MUA had policies to put pressure on the students so most would fail and they would end up with a class of 40 or students by the fifth term so there would not be a bottleneck for clinicals. That's what I mean by "unfair." Or more specifically, "unreasonable." MUA and some of these schools are med school bootcamp. It's med school on steroids. We did gross anatomy in 9 weeks and took an NBME in ADDITION to the final. That is unheard of. Did you do that? US schools study anatomy over two semesters. MUA had 30-34 credit hours per term. Did you have that? Do US students have that? Well, then how is this school getting away with it? California seemed to think everything was A-OK because they gave them the accreditation. This brings me to my next point. You have some unhealthy fascination with this idea of "The Big 4." There is no "Big Four!!!" That's something for advertisement purposes only. Just like California approval lol, how many of those idiots who complain about a school not having California plan on practicing in California or the states that use that list? Big 4 what then? What exactly does SGU offer you? Whatever they offer you, it's certainly not worth the 400K price tag. MUA has a match list so the school does produce graduates. They produced a Hopkins surgical categorical match. Did you match into that Mr. Big 4? You see what I mean? You should be ashamed then that a lowly MUA grad hit the jackpot and you didn't and you went to a "Big 4" school. As long as the school gives you the MD, you can call it whatever you want. Theoretically, you have ZERO advantage by going to SGU because you are still an IMG. It all comes down to how hard you want to work since every other student at these schools will be an IMG as well. Now SGU might have a program and resources that may be in your favor but you are guaranteed NOTHING just by going to SGU itself. And that comes back to the idea of risk.

SGU, and every other Caribbean school, screws many people over by relaxing their admissions standards. If they were to have much higher admissions standards, I would estimate 75% of the entering class would not even qualify due to a poor GPA or MCAT or BOTH! If med school is hard, how and why exactly do you relax admissions standards? Well, when you're "for-profit," you do it to collect more money from the people who you know will fail out at some point. It doesn't cost SGU anything really, they have a big campus with a lot of buildings and a lot of dormitories so they can house these unassuming students for two terms or two years and then boot them off the island after they ring their pockets empty. If you argue that, you're full of crap. That's the business model and that's the "evil money making machine" I was referring to. Normal operations don't do it like that. Did undergrad do it like that?

The problem with you is you talk before you should listen. You are not even allowing me to explain what I know. You say SGU 230 > MUA 230. I agree with that. But what you don't know is MUA will not let you sit for STEP1 unless you pass their exit exam with a ridiculous score. A score that is equivalent to > 230. So MUA knows that their students won't have much luck with anything lower than a 235. When I was there, the clinical dean said, when you get 235 or better, you will start to see interviews. Did you think MUA was run by a bunch of muppets? They know what's up just like the people that pull the strings at SGU.

Yes, my argument is for the basic sciences portion only. You remind me of those people of The Fox News Channel who always talk about Benghazi and Chicago lol. Doesn't it get annoying and sound pretty stupid after a while? Well that's how it sounds when you say...

You said you argue on behalf of the basic sciences but this concept is about the clinical / match process of which you have no experience.

If you pass basic sciences and score very well on STEP1 and STEP2 and you don't match you are either 1. An idiot or 2. Not someone a program director wants on their team. At that stage, it has absolutely nothing to do with the school. I'll direct you back to my example of the Hopkins categorical match.

I'm well aware of certain schools having "connections" to specific programs. Just an FYI, you can figure this out DURING basic sciences. We have a general idea of which geographical areas the school has the most clinical locations and you can look at more than the last five years match list to get an idea of where graduates have matched. Are you suggesting that basic sciences students sit on their thumbs during basic sciences? Even considering that, what good will that do you if you can't score well on STEP1 and 2? Are you going to come on this forum and proclaim that you don't have one classmate that did not match from SGU because of poor step scores? According to your argument, SGU's got your back because they are "Big 4." If you're down to the last two applicants for that IM spot and the SGU guy comes in with a 220 and the MUA guy comes in with a 240, is the Big 4 moniker going to save the SGU guy? No this is not foreign to me big man, you're simply in denial or just aloof to the overall big picture and want to tell a story that fits your narrative. I won't let you get away with that. You'd be a fool to tell someone that by going to SGU there is even a minuscule guarantee that they will come out a doctor. You're better off telling them what I'm telling them and that is it's all a risk no matter where you go.

SGU and these other schools are second opportunities but the word opportunity is just a way to cleverly disguise a scheme that exists primarily to make money and secondarily to produce some doctors and that is the root of the problem.

 

[Skip Intro]

Also, I will be writing a more professional article regarding my experience in the Caribbean and presenting it to the SDN editors for approval. I would like you're support and others as I begin work on this project. I promise it to be worthwhile reading.

Hahahaha.... This should be entertaining! OMG, dude. Get over yourself. Hahahahahaha....

-Skip

 

[DoctorS84]

This thread is by far the most entertaining in the General International subforum.

 

[aformerstudent]

Hahahaha.... This should be entertaining! OMG, dude. Get over yourself. Hahahahahaha....

-Skip

You know, for someone who seems to think "I don't know what I'm talking about," you're literally replying to every one of my posts which means you are reading them all the way through lol.

Seems like someone can't handle the truth hmmm.

And this coming from the eh "doctor."

 

[aformerstudent]

This thread is by far the most entertaining in the General International subforum.

Not meant to be entertaining but I hope you're learning something from it.

 

[DoctorS84]

Yea, not really learning anything I didn't already know. But entertaining nonetheless.

Carry on!

 

[aformerstudent]

Yea, not really learning anything I didn't already know. But entertaining nonetheless.

Carry on!

Well that's still good to know!

 

[aformerstudent]

I thought doctors have busy schedules and are busy saving lives or at least concerned with patient lives. I wonder why uncle Skip is always on this site replying to my posts when I'm the one on a hiatus with all the time in the world?

Either he has no patients lol or maybe he's not even a doctor? It's mighty suspicious.

 

[Shinken]

The moderators of this forum must be awfully patient. Other moderators would've locked this thread way before all this nonsense.

But by all means, do carry on. I'm glad we found a replacement for dknykid. I really miss the entertaining and epic battles.

 

[aformerstudent]

The moderators of this forum must be awfully patient. Other moderators would've locked this thread way before all this nonsense.

But by all means, do carry on. I'm glad we found a replacement for dknykid. I really miss the entertaining and epic battles.

If it's nonsense, why did you read through it lol?

 

[Skip Intro]

If it's nonsense, why did you read through it lol?

I skim your posts. Barely. As I'm sure most others do. What little I read, you are pure comedy, though.

I'm glad we found a replacement for dknykid.

Ah... the good old days. That kid was really delusional. All over the place. One minute he was going to the Caribbean and telling everyone how awesome it was going to be... PM'ing me asking me for my advice... the next minute bashing the Caribbean after he got a wait-list spot at, IIRC, Howard in D.C.

Thanks for re-opening that scarred-over wound. (haha)

-Skip

 

[aformerstudent]

I skim your posts. Barely. As I'm sure most others do. What little I read, you are pure comedy, though.



Ah... the good old days. That kid was really delusional. All over the place. One minute he was going to the Caribbean and telling everyone how awesome it was going to be... PM'ing me asking me for my advice... the next minute bashing the Caribbean after he got a wait-list spot at, IIRC, Howard in D.C.

Thanks for re-opening that scarred-over wound. (haha)

-Skip

Better advice than you give man lol

 

[el_duderino]

Serious question: you washed out before taking Step 1, right? What advice do you feel you can give that warrants a full article?

 

[aformerstudent]

Serious question: you washed out before taking Step 1, right? What advice do you feel you can give that warrants a full article?

Withdrew man. Is that really that hard for you all to comprehend lol?

As far as advice, there are plenty of people that will apply to the Caribbean with the idea that they will become doctors. Some will some won't. I have a pretty good idea who won't and I will spare them the trouble. Make sense to you? Is that OK with you if I do that or do you want me to go back to school and take STEP 1 lol? I don't get it.

 

[DoctorS84]

No, don't tell them to close this thread. This is the funniest thread on SDN.

There's like 5 replies everyday.

 

[aformerstudent]

No, don't tell them to close this thread. This is the funniest thread on SDN.

There's like 5 replies everyday.

Glad you are taking the time to read it though.

 

[mcat_taker]

If I was biased, I would be telling people NOT to go to the Caribbean but you see me telling them to go to an established school like SGU because I know I would have succeeded had I taken that route.

This brings me to my next point. You have some unhealthy fascination with this idea of "The Big 4." There is no "Big Four!!!" That's something for advertisement purposes only. Just like California approval lol, how many of those idiots who complain about a school not having California plan on practicing in California or the states that use that list? Big 4 what then? What exactly does SGU offer you? Whatever they offer you, it's certainly not worth the 400K price tag.

Theoretically, you have ZERO advantage by going to SGU because you are still an IMG. It all comes down to how hard you want to work since every other student at these schools will be an IMG as well. Now SGU might have a program and resources that may be in your favor

SGU, and every other Caribbean school, screws many people over by relaxing their admissions standards. If they were to have much higher admissions standards, I would estimate 75% of the entering class would not even qualify due to a poor GPA or MCAT or BOTH! If med school is hard, how and why exactly do you relax admissions standards? Well, when you're "for-profit," you do it to collect more money from the people who you know will fail out at some point. It doesn't cost SGU anything really, they have a big campus with a lot of buildings and a lot of dormitories so they can house these unassuming students for two terms or two years and then boot them off the island after they ring their pockets empty.

I'm well aware of certain schools having "connections" to specific programs.

Dude your arguments are all over the place. First you write that you would have succeeded at SGU and that you tell people to go to established schools like SGU. Then you deny that there is a big 4 and say that SGU isn't worth it and question what it offers you that MUA doesn't and claim people have 0 advantage by going there. Then you talk about how Caribbean schools screw people over by relaxing their admissions standards. You know what screws people over? Going to a non big 4 school that has even EASIER admissions standards than SGU. Then you talk about knowing how certain schools have connections to specific programs yet you still feel the need to bash these schools (like SGU) saying all the schools provide the same opportunities cause you know IMG is IMG so you might as well go to Syria for med school.

I think everyone on this forum knows that Caribbean schools are for profit second chance schools for kids who couldn't get into school in the U.S. You aren't telling anyone anything new or earth shattering. Your arguments are crazy and incoherent and you are lacking an ability to understand what people are telling you.

 

[aformerstudent]

Dude your arguments are all over the place. First you write that you would have succeeded at SGU and that you tell people to go to established schools like SGU. Then you deny that there is a big 4 and say that SGU isn't worth it and question what it offers you that MUA doesn't and claim people have 0 advantage by going there. Then you talk about how Caribbean schools screw people over by relaxing their admissions standards. You know what screws people over? Going to a non big 4 school that has even EASIER admissions standards than SGU. Then you talk about knowing how certain schools have connections to specific programs yet you still feel the need to bash these schools (like SGU) saying all the schools provide the same opportunities cause you know IMG is IMG so you might as well go to Syria for med school.

I think everyone on this forum knows that Caribbean schools are for profit second chance schools for kids who couldn't get into school in the U.S. You aren't telling anyone anything new or earth shattering. Your arguments are crazy and incoherent and you are lacking an ability to understand what people are telling you.

When I present my article, I'm going to ask the moderators to have you guys verify your admission and you have Skip verify his "doctor" status. If you can't do that, then I don't think you should be arguing with someone who is willing to do that. I will be presenting my attendance records to the chief editor with my article to show that I actually attended medical school, my WITHDRAWAL status, and where I attended so that it at least backs up my claims. The more I'm reading your responses and some others, the more I'm starting to believe that you are "plants" from some of these schools.

To make you feel better, if you are having a hard time understanding my arguments, that's the same way I feel.

Also, when I'm browsing the boards here and a thread comes across that I think makes no sense, I personally don't respond. Just a thought.

 

[aformerstudent]

Dude your arguments are all over the place. First you write that you would have succeeded at SGU and that you tell people to go to established schools like SGU. Then you deny that there is a big 4 and say that SGU isn't worth it and question what it offers you that MUA doesn't and claim people have 0 advantage by going there. Then you talk about how Caribbean schools screw people over by relaxing their admissions standards. You know what screws people over? Going to a non big 4 school that has even EASIER admissions standards than SGU. Then you talk about knowing how certain schools have connections to specific programs yet you still feel the need to bash these schools (like SGU) saying all the schools provide the same opportunities cause you know IMG is IMG so you might as well go to Syria for med school.

I think everyone on this forum knows that Caribbean schools are for profit second chance schools for kids who couldn't get into school in the U.S. You aren't telling anyone anything new or earth shattering. Your arguments are crazy and incoherent and you are lacking an ability to understand what people are telling you.

Syria would make you an FMG w/o US experience which is a little different than an IMG WITH US experience. That is an incredibly stupid example to use. Glad I caught it.

I did not say MUA gives you the same things SGU does. Read this -->

Now SGU might have a program and resources that may be in your favor

How about this regarding the "Big 4" I will let you call it that and I won't question it further but let's ask some program directors about the "Big 4." Let's see what they have to say about the matter. I'll bet a good amount don't even know where SABA and AUC are or that they exist for that matter.

The Caribbean is still a viable route and those people that are good candidates for that route can see success at a school like SGU. The point is not everybody is a good candidate but SGU will never tell you that. Having been to the Caribbean myself, I experienced what that was all about and I am directing these conversations to that audience so they know what to expect. I'm not discouraging anybody from applying but I am allowing them to see the whole picture of the Caribbean experience. You guys keep chiming in which I don't understand but I enjoy explaining this stuff to you.

From a fellow med student to a fellow med student, you can't take a random person off the street and expect them to succeed in medical school. I think you know that. I don't know about you but if someone can pass the first term of medical school, I believe they possess what it takes to get through the rest of the program and I'm sure you can get that same feedback from faculty. The people that fail out of the first term or fail the first term twice are not meant to be medical students at all because they have nothing to show or bargain with. I personally passed more than one term so I have no doubts that I could complete the program should I ever decide to do that. I withdrew because I was not at a level that I felt would yield future success so I cut my losses and walked away. Not a bad move and one that requires you to ask some big questions about yourself so that you can be realistic with yourself. Some can do it, some can't and the ones that can't are usually the ones who cry on match day.

I have a stance and you have a stance. Interesting how I'm not arguing against yours but you're always arguing against mine. My argument is a more conservative one and I think that's the best way to look at things when discussing the Caribbean.