Question from incoming MS1 DO...

[NontradCA]

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I'm good looking and have a big penis, so I was ok with going to a DO school. Srs.

But OP, if you had a legitimate shot, wouldn't you have gotten in this cycle?

 

[mcloaf]

I'm good looking and have a big penis, so I was ok with going to a DO school. Srs.

But OP, if you had a legitimate shot, wouldn't you have gotten in this cycle?

p.s. i plan on replying to that post you tagged me in, it's been a crazy week.

 

[Otto of the Silver-Hand]

DO = DOpe
MD= Mentally Deficient
😆😆😆
<Sorry, couldn't resist>


Now, back to your regularly scheduled program

 

[NontradCA]

p.s. i plan on replying to that post you tagged me in, it's been a crazy week.

Np, thanks. Can you post it here?
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/lets-get-hawt-before-omm-thread.1066598/

 

[notbobtrustme]

What do you say about a guy like me, who went DO with a 3.8/35 and never even applied MD? I fit none of your presumptions about what a DO student supposedly should be.

You are in a tiny, tiny minority. People who go DO do so because they generally aren't competitive for MDs.

also, congratulations on making the rest of your medical education that much harder to succeed in.

 

[NontradCA]

You are in a tiny, tiny minority. People who go DO do so because they generally aren't competitive for MDs.

also, congratulations on making the rest of your medical education that much harder to succeed in.

I'm not so sure about that. I took the DO for financial and location (I'm older and have other priorities). That being said, there are a substantial amount of folk in my class (majority I've talked to so far) that seem to embrace the "philosophy". It's kind of crazy, being someone who posts and reads SDN and then talking to them. They sincerely believe that their is a more holistic approach, and that OMM is substantial in the treatment of patients. I don't really blame them, because the schools and professors at the school all tout these differences during the admission process.

Most of the MD professors at the school state they wished they would've considered the DO route and that they wanted to learn OMM. I think this is particularly funny, because they can just take an OMM course if they want to, given all the resources they have around them. Mind you most of the people who I've talked to about this don't even have a good grasp on what residency is, or any idea of what to expect in medical school. Some didn't even know that there were residencies and thought clinicals were it. Now, I don't know if much of this is self assuring, and people lying to themselves, but I'd say that it isn't the minority. I think these are the people who wind up being unhappy with the education overall. Just look at the DO forums and you'll see a bunch of residents who act like they were bamboozled.

 

[mulberry]

Guys not everyone can make it to the big leagues (MD). That's fine cuz the little leaguers (DO) get paid well too.

That's just wrong.

 

[VisionaryTics]

Most of the MD professors at the school state they wished they would've considered the DO route and that they wanted to learn OMM. I think this is particularly funny, because they can just take an OMM course if they want to, given all the resources they have around them.

Would insurance companies pay for an MD to do OMT? Can they get certified if it wasn't part of their medical school or residency training? No idea.

Just look at the DO forums and you'll see a bunch of residents who act like they were bamboozled.

I just love that word.

 

[NontradCA]

Would insurance companies pay for an MD to do OMT? Can they get certified if it wasn't part of their medical school or residency training? No idea.

I don't know about the certification or residency thing, some DO attending would probably know better- @group_theory . It will be interesting with the new merger. I do know that medicare doesn't care if you're a DO or not and that it depends on different types of insurance and how it's billed.

 

[Psai]

"Holistic" is a meaningless word.

 

[dyspareunia]

What do you say about a guy like me, who went DO with a 3.8/35 and never even applied MD? I fit none of your presumptions about what a DO student supposedly should be.

Do DO schools not teach concepts like "zebra" or "outlier"?

3.9 and 30 would be competitive for MD. I only applied to DO schools. The DO route is more than a back up plan.

See above.

Wow. It's not that most people won't agree with some of your points, but the way that you say them just screams self-entitlement. Try to gain a little perspective, not everyone comes from the same situation.

I come from a low-income family with one parent who did not attend college. There are no physicians, dentists, lawyers, etc in my family (extended family included). My background doesn't give me perspective on everything, but I do feel entitled to my spot in medical school. I had no connections and worked hard for everything I have at this point in my life. Sorry I'm not sorry.

As others have said, not everyone comes from the same background. The 28-year-old single mom holding down two jobs while completing college is most likely going to less ECs, less shadowing, and a lower GPA than the trust-fund baby whose only job during undergrad is to get into medical school. He is using the right lingo. Not all DOs say "OMS". I don't.

That's probably true, but the 28-year old single mom blah blah blah shouldn't get a pass for a lower GPA and otherwise poorer application. All the things that hindered her from an excellent med-school application are going to hinder her from performing in med school. My point was that the 28-yo mom (in this example) put in less academic work than the trust-fund kid with high GPA/MCAT. I truthfully don't care why she put in less work. The fact is that she had obstacles leading to (how legitimate they are is irrelevant) her weaker application and those obstacles remain even if she gets accepted to med school. I'm not saying a lower GPA/MCAT always means lower intelligence.

I don't have numbers, but I would bet there are a hell of a lot more non-trads in DO schools. The fact is those that either took longer to finish undergrad or those who went back after another career are more likely to have lower GPAs. If someone graduated from undergrad 15 years ago with a degree in Art History hoping to be a school teacher, it's likely grades weren't their end-all-be-all like it would be the Biochem major who was set on becoming a vascular surgeon at age 3.

Again, this is beside the point. They have lower GPAs (for whatever reason) and went to DO schools because they can't get into MD schools (the real point).

What world do you live in where family, prior career, or catastrophic life events don't affect performance in school? And let's cut back on the psych lingo when you have a tough time understanding what it means.

As above, I understand those events affect performance. However, a catastrophic life event doesn't lead to a poor GPA... unless you're having catastrophic life events on a regular basis. Remember than GPA is calculated across 120+ credits.

And, yet again, chronic distractions (for lack of a better term) like a family are not suddenly going to disappear once you start med school. If a family hinders you from having an MD-level GPA/MCAT, it will also hinder you from performing well in medical school. Again, I'm not saying people with families and low stats are dumber than single college kids who can focus all their energy into studying. I'm saying that the family man simply doesn't have the time or isn't willing to make the sacrifices necessary to perform better. No judgement, it's just a fact of life. People have different priorities, and if you can't or won't make sacrifices in undergrad there's no reason for me or a med school ADCOM to believe you'll make sacrifices in med school.

Considering the fact that many people do every single year, I'd say your argument is pure crap. And FYI, some of those low tier MD schools have lower MCAT averages than some DO schools. At least they did when I was a pre-med.

Don't know if this is true or not. If it is, refer to the earlier part of this post regarding outliers.

It's only reasonable to the narrow-minded.

Be that as it may, if bottom-tier MD schools are discriminated against it follows that DO schools should be discriminated against as well.

Bear in mind that the hallmarks of bottom-tier MD schools are lower admissions stats and less research. Essentially the same as DO schools. The letters don't mean a thing.

Stats don't tell you a damn thing about intelligence. If someone aces Organic Chem, does that mean he or she is smarter than the person who got a C in it? If you answer yes, I'd ask you to think about it more carefully and pretend you're taking an MCAT VR section.

Stats do tell you something about intelligence. Intelligence plays a role in GPA and MCAT. Someone who gets an A in organic chem isn't necessarily more intelligent than someone who gets a C in organic chem, but someone who has a 4.0/40 is very intelligent. Someone who has a 3.0/25,26,27 is unintelligent for two main reasons.

Reason 1: 25-27 are terrible MCAT scores.
Reason 2: This individual wasn't intelligent enough to figure out a way to improve their score even after taking the MCAT two more times.

 

[Wordead]

When we stop thinking in such simplistic terms, medical education will advance at a rapid rate. Sure, the statistics cannot lie, I agree. But to equate intelligence to GPA and MCAT is a poor strategy of rationalization. I dare you to go into the OR and clinic, and pick out the DOs. There are other things that matter in medicine, like social intelligence, or mechanical intelligence. My orthopedic surgeon is a DO. He is an intelligent, skillful and socially exceptional person. At the end of the day, ask the patient. GPA and MCAT won't save you where it really matters. Sure you can't totally suck in these assessments.

To judge your colleagues on such incidental measures is not the right path to take.

What the eff is mechanical intelligence

 

[Mad Jack]

You are in a tiny, tiny minority. People who go DO do so because they generally aren't competitive for MDs.

also, congratulations on making the rest of your medical education that much harder to succeed in.

I like playing life on hard mode.

 

[Spikebd]

Do DO schools not teach concepts like "zebra" or "outlier"?



See above.



I come from a low-income family with one parent who did not attend college. There are no physicians, dentists, lawyers, etc in my family (extended family included). My background doesn't give me perspective on everything, but I do feel entitled to my spot in medical school. I had no connections and worked hard for everything I have at this point in my life. Sorry I'm not sorry.



That's probably true, but the 28-year old single mom blah blah blah shouldn't get a pass for a lower GPA and otherwise poorer application. All the things that hindered her from an excellent med-school application are going to hinder her from performing in med school. My point was that the 28-yo mom (in this example) put in less academic work than the trust-fund kid with high GPA/MCAT. I truthfully don't care why she put in less work. The fact is that she had obstacles leading to (how legitimate they are is irrelevant) her weaker application and those obstacles remain even if she gets accepted to med school. I'm not saying a lower GPA/MCAT always means lower intelligence.




Again, this is beside the point. They have lower GPAs (for whatever reason) and went to DO schools because they can't get into MD schools (the real point).



As above, I understand those events affect performance. However, a catastrophic life event doesn't lead to a poor GPA... unless you're having catastrophic life events on a regular basis. Remember than GPA is calculated across 120+ credits.

And, yet again, chronic distractions (for lack of a better term) like a family are not suddenly going to disappear once you start med school. If a family hinders you from having an MD-level GPA/MCAT, it will also hinder you from performing well in medical school. Again, I'm not saying people with families and low stats are dumber than single college kids who can focus all their energy into studying. I'm saying that the family man simply doesn't have the time or isn't willing to make the sacrifices necessary to perform better. No judgement, it's just a fact of life. People have different priorities, and if you can't or won't make sacrifices in undergrad there's no reason for me or a med school ADCOM to believe you'll make sacrifices in med school.




Don't know if this is true or not. If it is, refer to the earlier part of this post regarding outliers.




Be that as it may, if bottom-tier MD schools are discriminated against it follows that DO schools should be discriminated against as well.



Stats do tell you something about intelligence. Intelligence plays a role in GPA and MCAT. Someone who gets an A in organic chem isn't necessarily more intelligent than someone who gets a C in organic chem, but someone who has a 4.0/40 is very intelligent. Someone who has a 3.0/25,26,27 is unintelligent for two main reasons.

Reason 1: 25-27 are terrible MCAT scores.
Reason 2: This individual wasn't intelligent enough to figure out a way to improve their score even after taking the MCAT two more times.

I'm at a DO school and went into it with my eyes wide open. Did I know ENT and urology would be a fantasy to get into? Yes. Did I know "Top tier" IM would be next to impossible to get into? Yes. I was never an academic all star, but when I matured a little bit, found SDN, and figured out I could do a post-bac to become a doc, I reinvented myself. Finally got good grades during my postbac and scored a 35 MCAT. But I had a low undergrad GPA from my first major, so MD schools weren't interested.

I think a lot of people here are misguided if you assume all (or most) DO applicants are 3.0/25. Are there some DO students at the lower end who shouldn't be doctors? Definitely. But there are plenty of motivated and smart DO students. They aren't just zebra outliers like you state. I also realize that at the top end the upper quartile/third of MD students are basically medical machines who absorb info like sponges. Good for them. No doubt they deserve reward for their hard work.

Do I feel a bit of resentment for not being at an MD school with a high MCAT when others can get MD with a 3.5/27? Sometimes, but I don't have anyone to blame but myself for being immature as an 18 year old. Anyway, I'm sure I will have a harder time matching some place than a regular MD, but at the end of the day I wouldn't be able to match ANYWHERE if it weren't for DO schools.

 

[Brain Bucket]

I like playing life on hard mode.

IMG here. Please go play in the kiddie pool.

 

[dyspareunia]

I'm at a DO school and went into it with my eyes wide open. Did I know ENT and urology would be a fantasy to get into? Yes. Did I know "Top tier" IM would be next to impossible to get into? Yes. I was never an academic all star, but when I matured a little bit, found SDN, and figured out I could do a post-bac to become a doc, I reinvented myself. Finally got good grades during my postbac and scored a 35 MCAT. But I had a low undergrad GPA from my first major, so MD schools weren't interested.

I think a lot of people here are misguided if you assume all (or most) DO applicants are 3.0/25. Are there some DO students at the lower end who shouldn't be doctors? Definitely. But there are plenty of motivated and smart DO students. They aren't just zebra outliers like you're implying. I also realize that at the top end the upper quartile/third of MD students are basically medical machines who absorb info like sponges. Good for them. No doubt they deserve reward for their hard work.

Do I feel a bit of resentment for not being at an MD school with a high MCAT when others can get MD with a 3.5/27? Sometimes, but I don't have anyone to blame but myself for being immature as an 18 year old. Anyway, I'm sure I will have a harder time matching some place than a regular MD, but at the end of the day I wouldn't be able to match ANYWHERE if it weren't for DO schools.

I assume nothing about most DO applicants. I do assume most DO matriculants are ~3.5/27 given the fact that 3.5/27 is a decent approximation of the published averages for matriculants. Likewise, I assume most MD matriculants are ~3.7/32.

Furthermore, 3.8/35 is an outlier for DO students because a 35 in itself is ~91-92% as far as MCAT test-takers goes. This means that less than 10% of people apply (MD and DO combined) with a 35+. Even if we assume that there's an even split of these 35+ers between MD and DO, 5% can still loosely be considered "outlier". More realistically nearly all of the 35+ers go to MD schools as evidenced by the fact that many of the top-MD schools have matriculant MCAT averages upwards of 35.

 

[DermViser]

I'm not so sure about that. I took the DO for financial and location (I'm older and have other priorities). That being said, there are a substantial amount of folk in my class (majority I've talked to so far) that seem to embrace the "philosophy". It's kind of crazy, being someone who posts and reads SDN and then talking to them. They sincerely believe that their is a more holistic approach, and that OMM is substantial in the treatment of patients. I don't really blame them, because the schools and professors at the school all tout these differences during the admission process.

Most of the MD professors at the school state they wished they would've considered the DO route and that they wanted to learn OMM. I think this is particularly funny, because they can just take an OMM course if they want to, given all the resources they have around them. Mind you most of the people who I've talked to about this don't even have a good grasp on what residency is, or any idea of what to expect in medical school. Some didn't even know that there were residencies and thought clinicals were it. Now, I don't know if much of this is self assuring, and people lying to themselves, but I'd say that it isn't the minority. I think these are the people who wind up being unhappy with the education overall. Just look at the DO forums and you'll see a bunch of residents who act like they were bamboozled.

Keywords bolded - very common.

 

[Spikebd]

I assume nothing about most DO applicants. I do assume most DO matriculants are ~3.5/27 given the fact that 3.5/27 is a decent approximation of the published averages for matriculants. Likewise, I assume most MD matriculants are ~3.7/32.

Furthermore, 3.8/35 is an outlier for DO students because a 35 in itself is ~91-92% as far as MCAT test-takers goes. This means that less than 10% of people apply (MD and DO combined) with a 35+. Even if we assume that there's an even split of these 35+ers between MD and DO, 5% can still loosely be considered "outlier". More realistically nearly all of the 35+ers go to MD schools as evidenced by the fact that many of the top-MD schools have matriculant MCAT averages upwards of 35.

35 is closer to 95%. And yea you're definitely correct that a 3.8/35 is an outlier. His MCAT score would be an outlier at some MD schools too.

Sorry if I made it seem like 35 was the MCAT cut-off. No doubt most 35's apply and go to MD's. They should if they can.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

That's probably true, but the 28-year old single mom blah blah blah shouldn't get a pass for a lower GPA and otherwise poorer application

No one said she should in the med school application process. That statement was in response to the absurd statement that people in MD schools worked harder than those in DO schools.

All the things that hindered her from an excellent med-school application are going to hinder her from performing in med school

Again, not true. In med school, very few people work, so the 28-year-old with two jobs while attending college would be attending med school full-time. Also, things like ECs don't matter, so she doesn't have to take off from work to go to shadow a physician every week for 4 hours.

My point was that the 28-yo mom (in this example) put in less academic work than the trust-fund kid with high GPA/MCAT

Again, not necessarily. The 28-yo might have put in just as much work. But if the trust-fund kid is from Harvard (or any top tier school) and the 28-yo is from Podunk CC and State School because that's all she could afford, guess who gets the most offers? It should also be noted that ECs have nothing to do with "academic work" yet you better believe applicants are punished for not having the requisite number of volunteer hours and shadowing experiences. The point is, there are all kinds of reasons that people end up at DO school. Rarely, is it due to not putting in work and even more rarely is it due to lack of intelligence.

I truthfully don't care why she put in less work. The fact is that she had obstacles leading to (how legitimate they are is irrelevant) her weaker application and those obstacles remain even if she gets accepted to med school. I'm not saying a lower GPA/MCAT always means lower intelligence

You didn't say that a lower GPA/MCAT means lower intelligence, but someone else on this thread did and your posts are no better. You can't make snap judgments about people at DO schools and not be called on it. It's quite obvious you're very young and have led a charmed life by your statement about catastrophic life events not affecting GPA. That sentence right there should have ended all discussion.

As above, I understand those events affect performance. However, a catastrophic life event doesn't lead to a poor GPA... unless you're having catastrophic life events on a regular basis. Remember than GPA is calculated across 120+ credits

You have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about.

And, yet again, chronic distractions (for lack of a better term) like a family are not suddenly going to disappear once you start med school. If a family hinders you from having an MD-level GPA/MCAT, it will also hinder you from performing well in medical school. Again, I'm not saying people with families and low stats are dumber than single college kids who can focus all their energy into studying. I'm saying that the family man simply doesn't have the time or isn't willing to make the sacrifices necessary to perform better. No judgement, it's just a fact of life. People have different priorities, and if you can't or won't make sacrifices in undergrad there's no reason for me or a med school ADCOM to believe you'll make sacrifices in med school

And yet, that "family man" ends up getting through DO school and becoming a licensed physician, possibly even through an MD residency. So obviously, he was willing to make sacrifices and was able to perform just as well as his MD counterparts. Your argument is, therefore, moot.

Be that as it may, if bottom-tier MD schools are discriminated against it follows that DO schools should be discriminated against as well

Why should anyone be discriminated against? Why should a DO with comparable USMLE scores and grades not be on par with an MD student?

Stats do tell you something about intelligence. Intelligence plays a role in GPA and MCAT. Someone who gets an A in organic chem isn't necessarily more intelligent than someone who gets a C in organic chem, but someone who has a 4.0/40 is very intelligent. Someone who has a 3.0/25,26,27 is unintelligent for two main reasons.

Reason 1: 25-27 are terrible MCAT scores.
Reason 2: This individual wasn't intelligent enough to figure out a way to improve their score even after taking the MCAT two more times.

I think this tells us all we need to know about your argument. Done.

 

[Psai]

If better scores don't come from working harder and being smarter, what do they come from?

 

[BurghStudent]

What the eff is mechanical intelligence

When you can feel the torque changing in a drill as you bore through bone and then soft tissue. No, construction workers shouldn't become surgeons. Yes, that experience combined with medical competence would make for a killer surgeon.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Again, not true. In med school, very few people work, so the 28-year-old with two jobs while attending college would be attending med school full-time. Also, things like ECs don't matter, so she doesn't have to take off from work to go to shadow a physician every week for 4 hours.

It just shows how much you can do with what you got. Taking a bet on this person is a bad idea because she can't handle undergraduate work despite her circumstances.

Other people can do all that and more. When I was applying to medical school, I was also working a job and taking care of a newborn. Sure, I had my wife to help, but I also put the work in. I'd work, volunteer on the weekends and study for the MCAT when I got home. I showed that I can handle medical school despite my life situation.

This whole process isn't some touchy-feely bull****. We aren't training plumbers. If you can't handle the material, you'll get very few passes.

People who go DO should be thankful that they have a side-door to medicine. In other countries, it'd be tough luck, go find another job or career because there are no side entrances. The US is unique that it lets people who didn't qualify for MD degrees still practice medicine via backdoor routes.

 

[Mad Jack]

IMG here. Please go play in the kiddie pool.

I said Hard mode, not Hardcore Nightmare mode.

 

[dyspareunia]

No one said she should in the med school application process. That statement was in response to the absurd statement that people in MD schools worked harder than those in DO schools.

Are you replying to my statement? Because I'm pretty sure I said worked harder academically. Which holds true in your example of a single mother who can't spend as much studying (i.e. working as hard academically) as a single college student with no other responsibilities.

Again, not true. In med school, very few people work, so the 28-year-old with two jobs while attending college would be attending med school full-time. Also, things like ECs don't matter, so she doesn't have to take off from work to go to shadow a physician every week for 4 hours.

Again, I was referring to people who need to work during undergrad, not people who choose to work during undergrad. What changes in these individuals that allows them to not work during med school?

ECs do matter; not sure what you're talking about.

Again, not necessarily. The 28-yo might have put in just as much work. But if the trust-fund kid is from Harvard (or any top tier school) and the 28-yo is from Podunk CC and State School because that's all she could afford, guess who gets the most offers? It should also be noted that ECs have nothing to do with "academic work" yet you better believe applicants are punished for not having the requisite number of volunteer hours and shadowing experiences. The point is, there are all kinds of reasons that people end up at DO school. Rarely, is it due to not putting in work and even more rarely is it due to lack of intelligence.

You just said "ECs don't matter", but now you're saying "applicants are punished for not having [adequate ECs]". Which is it?

CC/State school students with good GPAs do get into MD schools provided the MD schools accept CC credits. Not sure what you are getting at here. We are talking about GPA/MCAT, not prestige of undergraduate institution.

In my opinion "intelligence" includes both the innate limitations of your brain and also your ability to improve the likelihood of achievement. Innate intelligence should be obvious, since that's what we all usually associate with the word "intelligence". As far as "improving likelihood of achievement" goes, I'm talking about things like not overfilling your plate, taking classes that you'll do well in, time management, etc. Using the MCAT re-taker as an example. Someone who takes it 3 times and gets a 33, 34, 35 is obviously innately intelligent. However, they are also unintelligent because they 1. retook a 33, 2. didn't do the things necessary to improve on a 33, and 3. repeated the process after getting a 34.

Another example is this. Someone who gets a C in gen-bio isn't necessarily unintelligent. But someone who finishes undergrad with a 3.0 GPA is certainly unintelligent either innately or because they weren't intelligent enough to step back and reduce their workload during times of crisis.

Edit: People with 3.0s aren't necessarily unintelligent outside of the pre-med/med world. But for our purposes (i.e. med school admissions) 3.0 is bad.

You didn't say that a lower GPA/MCAT means lower intelligence, but someone else on this thread did and your posts are no better. You can't make snap judgments about people at DO schools and not be called on it. It's quite obvious you're very young and have led a charmed life by your statement about catastrophic life events not affecting GPA. That sentence right there should have ended all discussion.

You're calling me out for making judgements about DO students, but your call out is making judgements about me ("charmed life"). DO students on average have lower stats, that's a fact. GPA and MCAT are measures of academic achievement. That's a fact. If DO students have lower GPA and MCAT, they have a history of lower academic achievement compared to MD students. That's a fact.

Lower academic achievement results from any combination of the following things in this non-comprehensive list:

Low-intelligence
Multiple responsibilities
Life events
Difficulty of undergraduate program

You have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about.

How does a death in the family (catastrophic event) affect more than 1 semester of college? I'll tell you how; the student was not intelligent enough to take a break from school and instead continued subsequent semesters even though they knew their head wasn't in the game.

And yet, that "family man" ends up getting through DO school and becoming a licensed physician, possibly even through an MD residency. So obviously, he was willing to make sacrifices and was able to perform just as well as his MD counterparts. Your argument is, therefore, moot.

Yes, my argument is moot if you think being a licensed physician means you "performed just as well" as the other physicians. The dude in Plastics performed better than the guy who scored 200 on steps and ended up in FM.

Why should anyone be discriminated against? Why should a DO with comparable USMLE scores and grades not be on par with an MD student?

That's just the way things are. I didn't say I agree with it. I just said that bottom-MD schools are discriminated against and so it makes sense that DO schools will be discriminated against as well. I know I typed "should be" in my previous post, but I shouldn't have used "should". I was getting at the fact that it's reasonable for DO schools to be discriminated against given the fact that nobody complains about bottom-tier MD schools being discriminated against.

I do think that top-tier MD applicants are largely better residency candidates than bottom MD/DO applicants though. I feel that way because I believe the majority of all med students are where they are because of choices they made. I believe that med students who have been significantly academically limited by families, catastrophic events, etc are in the minority. Because of that, I believe that the HMS, JHU, WashU, etc med students of the world are more intelligent, more driven, more innovative, and more likely to improve the face of medicine than the rest of us. The goal of most med schools isn't simply to accept students who will get by and graduate. The goal is to find applicants who will make a significant difference in the world (and in the process make the school look good). Most of us won't, but the best applicants are the ones who at least have the potential to. That is only my opinion, not a fact, and I realize that.

I think this tells us all we need to know about your argument. Done.

You disagree that intelligence contributes to GPA/MCAT?

 

[Wordead]

When you can feel the torque changing in a drill as you bore through bone and then soft tissue. No, construction workers shouldn't become surgeons. Yes, that experience combined with medical competence would make for a killer surgeon.

As in you think there are some orthopedic surgeons that cant feel the difference or hear the difference when you go through bone into soft tissue? I mean there are some real *******es in ortho but even I think that's going a bit far....

 

[BurghStudent]

As in you think there are some orthopedic surgeons that cant feel the difference or hear the difference when you go through bone into soft tissue? I mean there are some real *******es in ortho but even I think that's going a bit far....

Let's not extrapolate here. Going back to where this started, all I am saying is that GPA and MCAT should not be the sole determining factors of potential as a physician/surgeon. Sure, some people become doctors by entering schools with lower barriers of admission. But that one step will not resonate with them forever. If they have other abilities like this, they will shone through, and eventually they will become excellent doctors.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

It just shows how much you can do with what you got. Taking a bet on this person is a bad idea because she can't handle undergraduate work despite her circumstances

Wait a minute, what??? Do you think DO schools are filled with people who "can't handle undergraduate work"? If so, then you should probably read up a tad on average GPAs in DO schools. Students going to DO schools can handle the work. They just weren't superstars at it. Believe it or not, it is possible to get a 3.5 in college and still be considered competent. Shocker, I know.

Other people can do all that and more. When I was applying to medical school, I was also working a job and taking care of a newborn. Sure, I had my wife to help

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!! No more conversation necessary.

This whole process isn't some touchy-feely bullcrap. We aren't training plumbers. If you can't handle the material, you'll get very few passes.

People who go DO should be thankful that they have a side-door to medicine. In other countries, it'd be tough luck, go find another job or career because there are no side entrances. The US is unique that it lets people who didn't qualify for MD degrees still practice medicine via backdoor routes.

In other countries, people who got a 3.5 in college would still be competitive for medical school. I'm surprised some of you folks fit into your MD schools. Lots of huge egos in big heads around here.

 

[BurghStudent]

And can I just add to all this:

Some of us who go to MD schools benefit from our school's long history and sometimes, prestige. Look at the schools who are moving to a pass/fail preclinical curriculum. We often have recorded lectures, without mandatory attendance. Why? Because the culture of our schools have changed to start trusting us. They've had enough time to allow for this evolution.

From the experiences DO students share with me, they are often held to a stricter standard (I didn't say higher). Most DO schools are fairly young, and like any medical school trying to gain footing on the national scale, they want to be extra sure the students they graduate are high caliber. They might have mandatory attendance, high pass/fail cutoffs etc. Do you know many DO schools with a pass/fail curriculum?

I dare any MD student, myself included to go toe to toe in anatomy with a UNECOM student, if the presumption is that DO students are inherently inferior. Yeah, I know we MDs know our anatomy. Good for you. My point is, you can't judge what you don't know.

 

[D4C]

This thread is just a treat to watch!

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Are you replying to my statement? Because I'm pretty sure I said worked harder academically. Which holds true in your example of a single mother who can't spend as much studying (i.e. working as hard academically) as a single college student with no other responsibilities

The original post that you replied to was me replying to someone else. Someone said that those in MD school worked harder. I addressed that comment to that person. You then replied to me.

Again, I was referring to people who need to work during undergrad, not people who choose to work during undergrad. What changes in these individuals that allows them to not work during med school?

The fact that they qualify for student loans that include living expenses?

ECs do matter; not sure what you're talking about

ECs in med school do not matter, sorry. Unless you're going for something super competitive, no one cares what you did in med school. Plenty of IM, family, peds, neuro, and psych docs out there without ECs.

You just said "ECs don't matter", but now you're saying "applicants are punished for not having [adequate ECs]". Which is it?

Please try to keep up. What I said was that they're punished for lack of ECs in UNDERGRAD during the med school admission process. In med school, you don't have to be involved at all and you can still get into residency.

CC/State school students with good GPAs do get into MD schools provided the MD schools accept CC credits. Not sure what you are getting at here

Seriously, I'm speaking English. Don't twist my words and you'll understand more clearly. No one said they don't get in to MD schools. What I said is that when CC/Podunk state school student is in a head-to-head with the Harvard student, all other things being equal, most med schools would pick the Harvard student.

We are talking about GPA/MCAT, not prestige of undergraduate institution

Don't kid yourself into thinking prestige of undergrad institution doesn't matter. How many Harvard or Yale grads are in DO school?

Another example is this. Someone who gets a C in gen-bio isn't necessarily unintelligent. But someone who finishes undergrad with a 3.0 GPA is certainly unintelligent either innately or because they weren't intelligent enough to step back and reduce their workload during times of crisis.

Edit: People with 3.0s aren't necessarily unintelligent outside of the pre-med/med world. But for our purposes (i.e. med school admissions) 3.0 is bad

Let's talk in more realistic terms here since it's extremely rare for a 3.0 GPA to get into med school, DO or MD. But let's talk about the 3.4. If someone has a 3.4, they would most likely not be competitive for MD schools. I wouldn't consider a 3.4 unintelligent. I'd consider it a good GPA. However, the story behind the 3.4 is what DO admissions committees take into account. Was it because the person had another major where getting a 4.0 didn't matter and then returned to school to do the pre-med thing? Was it that single mom with two jobs? What happened to get that student a 3.4. It's not that the 3.4 is less intelligent than the 4.0. That's my point.

You're calling me out for making judgements about DO students, but your call out is making judgements about me ("charmed life"). DO students on average have lower stats, that's a fact. GPA and MCAT are measures of academic achievement. That's a fact. If DO students have lower GPA and MCAT, they have a history of lower academic achievement compared to MD students. That's a fact.

I never argued any of this. I say you have a charmed life because your statements are extremely naive. If you think that catastrophic life events won't have an affect on your college GPA, it proves that you more than likely never experienced catastrophic life events. That's great for you. But it's an important distinction that you've never been there yourself and are only making assumptions about the affects of it.

 

[DocVapor]

I was about to review my watered-down, alternative-medicine, DO version of renal, then I saw this thread.

😛opcorn:

 

[BurghStudent]

I was about to review my watered-down, alternative-medicine, DO version of renal, then I saw this thread.

😛opcorn:

Good luck studying osteopathic biochemistry, osteopathic physiology, osteopathic anatomy and osteopathic pathophysiology. 🙄

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

This was supposed to be part of the other post, but it wouldn't let me type anymore, so I'm making it a new post.

Yes, my argument is moot if you think being a licensed physician means you "performed just as well" as the other physicians. The dude in Plastics performed better than the guy who scored 200 on steps and ended up in FM

No one said otherwise. I specifically said COMPARABLE USMLE scores. What I'm saying is why should the DO student who passed everything on the first try, like the MD student, who got glowing grades and third-year evals, like the MD student, who got a 260 on the USMLE, like the MD student, be discriminated against for not being an MD? THAT'S my point. No one said that everyone is qualified to be in whatever residency they want.

That's just the way things are. I didn't say I agree with it. I just said that bottom-MD schools are discriminated against and so it makes sense that DO schools will be discriminated against as well. I know I typed "should be" in my previous post, but I shouldn't have used "should". I was getting at the fact that it's reasonable for DO schools to be discriminated against given the fact that nobody complains about bottom-tier MD schools being discriminated agains

And this is the comment I found the most fault with -- the "should" be discriminated against.

You disagree that intelligence contributes to GPA/MCAT?

Yes. I disagree that you can look at a number and make a judgment about the person's intelligence. Absolutely.

 

[D4C]

Good luck studying osteopathic biochemistry, osteopathic physiology, osteopathic anatomy and osteopathic pathophysiology. 🙄

When I was studying osteopathic biochemistry, I was wondering why the osteopathic tca cycle had no citrate 🙂

-P.S. Some people on this forum need to take a day off and get a massage.

 

[Wordead]

This was supposed to be part of the other post, but it wouldn't let me type anymore, so I'm making it a new post.



No one said otherwise. I specifically said COMPARABLE USMLE scores. What I'm saying is why should the DO student who passed everything on the first try, like the MD student, who got glowing grades and third-year evals, like the MD student, who got a 260 on the USMLE, like the MD student, be discriminated against for not being an MD? THAT'S my point. No one said that everyone is qualified to be in whatever residency they want.



And this is the comment I found the most fault with -- the "should" be discriminated against.



Yes. I disagree that you can look at a number and make a judgment about the person's intelligence. Absolutely.

Track record. In the same way that someone at a lower tier MD is discriminated against when compared to a top tier MD school.

 

[DoctorKrieger]

Good luck studying osteopathic biochemistry, osteopathic physiology, osteopathic anatomy and osteopathic pathophysiology. 🙄

Rumor has it that the Goljan lectures floating around are the heavily-edited versions omitting ancient osteopathic secrets only his students learned.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Track record. In the same way that someone at a lower tier MD is discriminated against when compared to a top tier MD school.

But it's not the same. Lower tier MD applicants are still able to apply and be considered for all programs. Not so for DOs. Some specifically say they don't take DOs.

 

[Psai]

Maybe if we make 50 more jokes about osteopathic physiology, it will start being funny.

 

[JJLA]

..

 

[Wordead]

But it's not the same. Lower tier MD applicants are still able to apply and be considered for all programs. Not so for DOs. Some specifically say they don't take DOs.

Yeah but lower tier MD applicants are strongly discriminated against at top programs/competitive specialties. Check out how incestuous the top schools are for residency. It's just a gradient of discrimination.

 

[Daodejing]

Do DO schools not teach concepts like "zebra" or "outlier"?

 

[dyspareunia]

The original post that you replied to was me replying to someone else. Someone said that those in MD school worked harder. I addressed that comment to that person. You then replied to me.

The fact that they qualify for student loans that include living expenses?

You can get private loans in undergrad for living expenses.

ECs in med school do not matter, sorry. Unless you're going for something super competitive, no one cares what you did in med school. Plenty of IM, family, peds, neuro, and psych docs out there without ECs.


Please try to keep up. What I said was that they're punished for lack of ECs in UNDERGRAD during the med school admission process. In med school, you don't have to be involved at all and you can still get into residency.

Oh, my fault. I thought you were talking about ECs in pre-med. I agree that ECs don't matter in med school unless they are publications.

Seriously, I'm speaking English. Don't twist my words and you'll understand more clearly. No one said they don't get in to MD schools. What I said is that when CC/Podunk state school student is in a head-to-head with the Harvard student, all other things being equal, most med schools would pick the Harvard student.

But what does CC/state school have to do with 28-yo single mom vs 18 year old with no responsibilities? The 28-yo single mom could have gone to Harvard when she was 18 if she worked hard enough in high school.

Don't kid yourself into thinking prestige of undergrad institution doesn't matter. How many Harvard or Yale grads are in DO school?

Few to none, I'd guess. But the reason is not because they went to Harvard, it's because of the kind of person it takes to get into Harvard in the first place. A Harvard degree is meaningless in med-school applications unless your stats are near average (3.6/30) or better. Sure, a 3.6/30 Harvard grad will likely get more looks than a 3.6/30 CC/state school grad, but those aren't the stats we're talking about. We're talking about people with DO stats (3.5/27). A 3.5/27, even coming from Harvard, will have a difficult time getting into an MD school. Yes, I agree that Harvard helps, but not enough that you can have low stats and still get in.

Let's talk in more realistic terms here since it's extremely rare for a 3.0 GPA to get into med school, DO or MD. But let's talk about the 3.4. If someone has a 3.4, they would most likely not be competitive for MD schools. I wouldn't consider a 3.4 unintelligent. I'd consider it a good GPA. However, the story behind the 3.4 is what DO admissions committees take into account. Was it because the person had another major where getting a 4.0 didn't matter and then returned to school to do the pre-med thing? Was it that single mom with two jobs? What happened to get that student a 3.4. It's not that the 3.4 is less intelligent than the 4.0. That's my point.

I agree that the 3.4 isn't necessarily less intelligent than the 4.0. The 3.4 certainly did put in less time and effort in school though. Perhaps they have an "acceptable" reason like being a single mom, but that doesn't change the fact that they didn't study as much as the kid with a 4.0. They had other responsibilties that prevented them from studying enough for a 4.0. I have nothing against that, but the fact remains that the 4.0 put in more time to their academic performance.

I never argued any of this. I say you have a charmed life because your statements are extremely naive. If you think that catastrophic life events won't have an affect on your college GPA, it proves that you more than likely never experienced catastrophic life events. That's great for you. But it's an important distinction that you've never been there yourself and are only making assumptions about the affects of it.

You're not reading what I'm typing. I understand that catastrophic events affect your GPA. I'm saying that a catastrophic event does not justify a low cumulative GPA because cumulative GPAs are based on more than a single semester. Let me use an example so I can be completely clear.

Semester 1 - 4.0 GPA
Semester 2 - 2.5 GPA because your father died.
***Now here's the distinction you're missing.
Semester 3 - 2.5 GPA because you're still grieving the death of your father.
Semester 4 - 2.7 GPA as above.
etc.

Total GPA after 4 semesters = ~2.95. This person was not intelligent enough to take time off from school.

Second scenario.

Semester 1 - 4.0 GPA
Semester 2 - 2.5 GPA because father died
***Take a year (or however long) off to recover from catastrophic event.
Semester 3 - 3.8
Semester 4 - 3.8

Total GPA after 4 semesters = 3.5. This person's GPA is lower than it would be if their father hadn't died, but is still decent enough after 4 semesters.

This was supposed to be part of the other post, but it wouldn't let me type anymore, so I'm making it a new post.



No one said otherwise. I specifically said COMPARABLE USMLE scores. What I'm saying is why should the DO student who passed everything on the first try, like the MD student, who got glowing grades and third-year evals, like the MD student, who got a 260 on the USMLE, like the MD student, be discriminated against for not being an MD? THAT'S my point. No one said that everyone is qualified to be in whatever residency they want.

They shouldn't be, but they are. DOs are eligible to apply to any residency program they want. Whether or not the PD at the residency program will accept a DO is another story. The system is fine, the system does not discriminate. Individual people (PDs) discriminate and there's really nothing anyone can do about that. HMS grad >>> Meharry grad > DO grad all with the same stats. Like every other aspect of life there is a hierarchy. I don't know why everyone is so butthurt about it when it comes to residency applications.

And this is the comment I found the most fault with -- the "should" be discriminated against.

I agree it was poorly worded and did not represent my point.

Yes. I disagree that you can look at a number and make a judgment about the person's intelligence. Absolutely.

So someone with an IQ of 110 (average) can score a 35 on the MCAT just as easily as someone with an IQ of 140? Seriously?

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

You can get private loans in undergrad for living expenses

Why are you twisting yourself into a pretzel to make this point? The point is, some are advantaged in undergrad and some are not. Those who are are going to do better in most cases. No one is going to take out private loans in undergrad when the option is there to work. Med school is a different ballgame.

But what does CC/state school have to do with 28-yo single mom vs 18 year old with no responsibilities? The 28-yo single mom could have gone to Harvard when she was 18 if she worked hard enough in high school

You really think everyone is on equal footing when it comes to education and life experience? Sure, some work their way up and get into Harvard despite upbringing, lack of money, education in the worst schools, etc. But the average Harvard student didn't have that life. Which is great for them. I'm not saying they shouldn't get what they earned, however they earned it. All i'm saying is that many the ones who weren't as fortunate worked just as hard. To make a general statement that they didn't work hard academically because they didn't get the best grades or didn't get into Harvard is inaccurate. They did the best they could with what they had and in many instances, they had a lot less than the Harvard student.

Few to none, I'd guess. But the reason is not because they went to Harvard, it's because of the kind of person it takes to get into Harvard in the first place. A Harvard degree is meaningless in med-school applications unless your stats are near average (3.6/30) or better. Sure, a 3.6/30 Harvard grad will likely get more looks than a 3.6/30 CC/state school grad, but those aren't the stats we're talking about. We're talking about people with DO stats (3.5/27). A 3.5/27, even coming from Harvard, will have a difficult time getting into an MD school. Yes, I agree that Harvard helps, but not enough that you can have low stats and still get in

I disagree. I think a 27 is much more forgivable to the med school admissions committee if it comes from a Harvard student. Not saying their guaranteed to get in, but they sure as hell have a leg up on the 27 from the state school.

You're not reading what I'm typing. I understand that catastrophic events affect your GPA. I'm saying that a catastrophic event does not justify a low cumulative GPA because cumulative GPAs are based on more than a single semester. Let me use an example so I can be completely clear.

Semester 1 - 4.0 GPA
Semester 2 - 2.5 GPA because your father died.
***Now here's the distinction you're missing.
Semester 3 - 2.5 GPA because you're still grieving the death of your father.
Semester 4 - 2.7 GPA as above.
etc.

Total GPA after 4 semesters = ~2.95. This person was not intelligent enough to take time off from school

Second scenario.

Semester 1 - 4.0 GPA
Semester 2 - 2.5 GPA because father died
***Take a year (or however long) off to recover from catastrophic event.
Semester 3 - 3.8
Semester 4 - 3.8

Total GPA after 4 semesters = 3.5. This person's GPA is lower than it would be if their father hadn't died, but is still decent enough after 4 semesters

I hear what you're saying and I maintain what I said. It's not a question of intelligence by any means. Grieving people don't have the foresight that you do sitting here on a computer arguing hypotheticals. Also, it should be noted that the 3.5 would be considered weak for MD schools.

They shouldn't be, but they are. DOs are eligible to apply to any residency program they want

Nope. Some programs specifically say they won't take applications from DO students.

So someone with an IQ of 110 (average) can score a 35 on the MCAT just as easily as someone with an IQ of 140? Seriously?

Who said anything about just as easily??? See, this is why we're having trouble. You read what I said and then twist it around to mean something it doesn't. Wha tI said was that a NUMBER can't tell you anything about intelligence. I never said nor implied that someone with an average IQ can score a 35 on the MCAT just as easily as someone with a 140 IQ. That's YOUR inaccurate interpretation of my comment.

 

[Brain Bucket]

Let it go, she just enjoys playing the devil's advocate. She lost this argument awhile ago.

 

[dyspareunia]

Why are you twisting yourself into a pretzel to make this point? The point is, some are advantaged in undergrad and some are not. Those who are are going to do better in most cases. No one is going to take out private loans in undergrad when the option is there to work. Med school is a different ballgame.

I'm not twisting myself. Private loans are available and if you aren't willing to make that sacrifice to have good enough grades to get into an MD school that's your choice.

Choice A: 50k-200k extra debt so you don't have to work and can maximize your potential.
Choice B: Save 50-200k by working and hoping you can get into a DO school and have the same career prospects.

You really think everyone is on equal footing when it comes to education and life experience? Sure, some work their way up and get into Harvard despite upbringing, lack of money, education in the worst schools, etc. But the average Harvard student didn't have that life. Which is great for them. I'm not saying they shouldn't get what they earned, however they earned it. All i'm saying is that many the ones who weren't as fortunate worked just as hard. To make a general statement that they didn't work hard academically because they didn't get the best grades or didn't get into Harvard is inaccurate. They did the best they could with what they had and in many instances, they had a lot less than the Harvard student.

Student A: Single mom, works 2 jobs, studies 3 hours a day.
Student B: 18 years old, no job, studies 10 hours a day.

Student B put worked harder academically. Student A probably made a valiant effort, but simply didn't have the time available to devote to school.

I disagree. I think a 27 is much more forgivable to the med school admissions committee if it comes from a Harvard student. Not saying their guaranteed to get in, but they sure as hell have a leg up on the 27 from the state school.

Then you're just out of touch with the admissions process. Most MD schools won't even look at where you went to college if you have a 27 MCAT.

I hear what you're saying and I maintain what I said. It's not a question of intelligence by any means. Grieving people don't have the foresight that you do sitting here on a computer arguing hypotheticals. Also, it should be noted that the 3.5 would be considered weak for MD schools.

Grieving people don't have the foresight? Many people take LOAs from school (even med school) when they have too much going on in their life to handle school properly.

A 3.5 after 4 semesters with the demonstrated ability to get a 3.8-4.0 under normal circumstances will end up being 3.6-3.7 after 8 semesters. Competitive GPA.

Nope. Some programs specifically say they won't take applications from DO students.

Yes, and the program director is the one who makes that decision.

Who said anything about just as easily??? See, this is why we're having trouble. You read what I said and then twist it around to mean something it doesn't. Wha tI said was that a NUMBER can't tell you anything about intelligence. I never said nor implied that someone with an average IQ can score a 35 on the MCAT just as easily as someone with a 140 IQ. That's YOUR inaccurate interpretation of my comment.

I didn't say the score tells you how smart or dumb someone is. I said intelligence plays a role in your GPA and MCAT score. Which, you seem to be agreeing with now.

 

[Psai]

A 27 is the same 27 no matter where you go. It helps put your GPA in context which is why it's used in admissions. It's the same reason for why step 1 is so important. A 27 from Harvard is not better than a 27 from a community college.

 

[TXKnight]

You are in a tiny, tiny minority. People who go DO do so because they generally aren't competitive for MDs.

also, congratulations on making the rest of your medical education that much harder to succeed in.

According to https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/2012factstable25-4.pdf an average DO matriculant does indeed have an OK shot at MD (that is assuming ORM). For the 2013 cycle stats I think, the average DO matriculant has between 40% and 50% chance of an MD acceptance. Truth is, averages are really not that different. The difference I think is in the minority of DO applicants that would never, gain acceptance (stat-wise) from an allo program, but did get one from DO because of the fact that osteo schools do reward people "reinventing" themselves.

 

[sinombre]

According to https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/2012factstable25-4.pdf an average DO matriculant does indeed have an OK shot at MD (that is assuming ORM). For the 2013 cycle stats I think, the average DO matriculant has between 40% and 50% chance of an MD acceptance. Truth is, averages are really not that different. The difference I think is in the minority of DO applicants that would never, gain acceptance (stat-wise) from an allo program, but did get one from DO because of the fact that osteo schools do reward people "reinventing" themselves.

You're excluding DO grade replacement, which is probably pretty significant.

 

[TXKnight]

You're excluding DO grade replacement, which is probably pretty significant.

True. I'd actually like to know how significant it is, because the rules they've set forth make it somewhat difficult to replace, unless you are at the same college, but many do take advantage of it. Anecdotically, I keep hearing about 3 classes for many, for few 4+ classes, at the other end another few with <3 or none at all.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

I'm not twisting myself. Private loans are available and if you aren't willing to make that sacrifice to have good enough grades to get into an MD school that's your choice.

Choice A: 50k-200k extra debt so you don't have to work and can maximize your potential.
Choice B: Save 50-200k by working and hoping you can get into a DO school and have the same career prospects

Yes, the Choice A student can take on 200K in debt for undergrad. Then take on another 200K in med school. Orrrr Choice A can do well and take her chances on either an MD or DO school, knowing that her GPA will be high enough to get into one of them, even if she works. I don't understand what you're arguing here. I never said that the student in Choice A should be guaranteed admission to MD school. I simply said she shouldn't be looked down on for going to DO school.

Then you're just out of touch with the admissions process. Most MD schools won't even look at where you went to college if you have a 27 MCAT

No, I'm really not. Let's not pretend a 27 from Harvard is the same as a 27 from Podunk State School. As I said, 27s DO get into MD schools. Most of the time, they're from well-known universities, not Podunk U.

Grieving people don't have the foresight? Many people take LOAs from school (even med school) when they have too much going on in their life to handle school properly

I said grieving people don't have the foresight THAT YOU HAVE SITTING HERE AT YOUR COMPUTER DISCUSSING HYPOTHETICALS. Ever heard the saying "hindsight is 20/20"? That's especially true when someone is altered in some way and grief DOES alter your mental status. Yes, people take LOAs from school; no one said they don't. But even when they return, in many cases, they're not the same personally or academically as they once were. Anyway, when I referred to catastrophic life events, I wasn't just talking about the death of a parent. There are many catastrophic events that can happen to a person that take their toll far more than you're willing to admit. My sorority sister in undergrad lost both parents and two siblings (all of her immediate family) in a car wreck. Trust me when I say, she was never the same.

Yes, and the program director is the one who makes that decision

Never said otherwise.

I didn't say the score tells you how smart or dumb someone is. I said intelligence plays a role in your GPA and MCAT score. Which, you seem to be agreeing with now.

I never disagreed that intelligence PLAYS A ROLE. What I disagreed with and what I initially replied to was someone else saying that if your MCAT isn't good enough to get into MD school, you're not as smart. I disagreed with that statement, to which you came back and defended. I said that I don't look at a number and judge the person's intelligence as every number has a story behind it and someone who scores a 28 isn't necessarily less intelligent than someone who scores a 33. Must be that "holistic" training at my DO school.